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[hockeysemlan]

(Ehm, I don't feel comfortable posting a new topic as only a herbalist, but whatever.. kill me if you must)

Since the wonderful debate about the overpay-cost-cards place in the Qvist-rankings I have been thinking seriously about trying to divide cards in what they do rather than in what they cost. It's awfully tricky of course and probably impossible to do totally satisfying, but still I think I caught a grasp of it to discuss further at least. I managed to get it down to 12 groups. Mostly of them with 15-25 cards and I guess that's quite decent. The awkward group is "the remodel" cards, which both is the only group with under 10 cards and also the only group with the same name as an actual card.  Still the remodel-effect is such a special mechanic that I don't really know wherelse to put them.

Hm. I don't think it's so smart of me to post the complete list right away since I don't even know if there's any interest or even if someone has done it here before in some way... Anyhow, I might present my categories and you can say what you think of them as such. *Hrm* here we go...

TREASURES
(Cards of the type Treasure)

Platinum
Bank
Gold
Venture
Fool’s Gold
Horn of Plenty
Hoard
Harem
Silver
Quarry
Loan
Counterfeit
Cache
Contraband
Copper
Royal Seal
Talisman
Philosopher’s stone
Stash
Masterpiece

JUNKERS
(Cards that in some way have the possibility of giving out zero-costing card, aka junk)

Cultist
Mountebank
Sea Hag
Ill-Gotten Gains
Marauder
Familiar
Ambassador
Young Witch
Torturer
Witch
Swindler
Soothsayer
Jester
Embargo
Band of Misfits

DECKHURTER
(Cards that in some way, other than giving junk, hurt the opponent deck)

Goons
Militia
Cutpurse
Pirate Ship
Knights
Urchin/Mercenary
Margrave
Ghost Ship
Saboteur
Minion
Fortune Teller
Noble Brigand
Rouge
Thief
Spy
Taxman
Pillage
Rabble

TRASHERS
(Cards that is garanteed to trash more cards in the deck than it gain by itself)

- I must say that this kinda odd clause is due to Death Cart which is neither a gainer, nor a proper trasher.

Chapel
Masquerade
Hermit
Remake
Apprentice
Forge
Forager
Count
Steward
Junkdealer
Bishop
Spice Merchant
Lookout
Trading Post
Salvager
Mint
Moneylender
Trade Route
Trader
Doctor

REMODELS
(Cards that trash one of your cards for another in the supply)

Rebuild
Mine
Upgrade
Remodel
Graverobber
Expand
Develop
Transmute
Butcher
Rats
Altar

VILLAGES
(Cards that gives you the possibility to play at least two more actions)

Border Village
Fishing Village
Bandit Camp
City
Wandering Minstrel
Fortress
Worker’s Village
Festival
University
Golem
King’s Court
Procession
Throne Room
Native Village
Crossroads
Farming Village
Mining Village
Hamlet
Bazaar
Village
Inn
Shanty Town
Walled Village
Village

NON-TERMINAL DRAWERS
(Cards that has the possibility to increase your hand size, with at least one action left to play)

Hunting Party
Scrying Pool
Tactician
Governor
Labaratory
Alchemist
Caravan
Mystic
Stables
Menagerie
Wishing Well
Apothecary
Possession
Tribute
Outpost
Vagrant
Haven
Advisor
Herald
Scout
Conspirator

TERMINAL DRAWERS
(Cards that increases your hand size)

Wharf
Watchtower
Embassy
Hunting Grounds
Vault
Nobles
Courtyard
Envoy
Library
Smithy
Catacombs
Council Room
Moat
Oracle
Journeyman
Counting House
Adventurer
 
SIFTERS
(Cards that have the possibility to improve your deckorder)

Scheme
Warehouse
Storeroom
Cartographer
Scavenger
Cellar
Sage
Navigator
Herbalist
Chancellor
Pearl Diver
Mandarin

GAINERS
(Cards that have the possibility to gain you cards by themselves, when you play them, outside of the buyphase)

Ironmonger
Haggler
Smugglers
Bureaucrat
Treasure Map
Armory
Ironworks
Beggar
Workshop
Feast
Explorer
Stonemason
Jack of All Trades
Squire
Tournament
Tunnel
Market Square

MONEY CARERS
(Cards that produces virtual money)

Non-terminal
Grand Market
Peddler
Market
Pawn
Oasis
Treasury
Candlestick Maker
Baker
Lighthouse
Highway
Terminal
Monument
Woodcutter
Merchant Guild
Death Cart
Bridge
Poor House
Baron
Horse Traders
Merchant Ship
Nomad Camp
Coppersmith
Harvest
Secret Chamber
Duchesse

VICTORY
(Cards of the type Victory)

Colony
Province
Feodum
Duke
Silk Road
Fairgrounds
Duchy
Island
Gardens
Great Hall
Farmland
Estates
Vineyard

This is how it works. The catagories goes in priority, so if a card, i.e Witch, fits in "Junkers" they can't go further down even if it's indeed also is a drawer. The big problem comes with cards as Band of Misfits or Governor which do completely different things from a time to another...

The group I most dissapointed with, except remodel, is Money Carers. Too many different kind of cards is there, but if I don't want another meaningless subgroup I found it impossible to touch it really.. 

I don't know. Is this somehow interesting categories? If it is I might post the complete list. I do by the way not at all intend them to replace any other ranking system, it was only a fun mind exercise for my own good. If someone of you found this fun too, it's just a bonus.

Cheers.   

Edit: The cards are included now. Again, this is tricky, and just a personal mindgame. Feel free to argue as you wish, but with the words of Manuel (and nowadays John Snow): I know nothing. I'm just a herbalist... 
 
The order of the cards? There is no order. Don't try to find one. I said don't. 
 

[ednever]

You may want to redefinition a little to include remodel types with other trash for benefit.

Remodel
Expand
Butcher
Remake

But also
Apprentice
Salvager
Stonemason
Etc.

The other open question is whether the groups need to be mece* or if a card could appear in more than one group.

Ed
*- mece: Mutually Exclusive, Collectively Exaustive

[scott_pilgrim]

Dividing things into groups is fun!  I think prioritizing certain categories is a good way to determine whether Harem is a treasure or victory card (assuming you want the categories to be mutually exclusive), so I like that.  If you already have the list done, I would say go ahead and post it.  Then everyone can get into arguments about where things belong, and people like arguing.  Is the idea to rank them within each group?

BTW, for BoM and Governor, I think that for the sake of consistency (assuming I'm understanding your priority system correctly), BoM would be a junker (since it can be a Sea Hag, Marauder, etc.), and Governor would be...well I guess a drawer.  But shouldn't Drawer and Lab-Drawer be flipped?  Otherwise, Laboratory, Caravan, Wishing Well, etc. all get caught in the Drawer category before they make it to Lab Drawer.  Lab-Drawer is a subset of Drawer, so everything that would be a Lab-Drawer is a Drawer.  If you flip them then Governor would be Lab-Drawer.  (Also, I would rename them Terminal Draw and Non-Terminal Draw, but maybe that's just me.)

Also, I'm not really sure I understand what Money Carers is, but I guess that's where Peddler-type cards would fall, as well as Woodcutter, Nomad Camp, etc.?  I might consider separating terminal money from non-terminal money (there's a big difference between the function of Peddler and Woodcutter), but maybe the categories wouldn't be big enough then?  I guess it's up to you.

[hockeysemlan]

The other open question is whether the groups need to be mece* or if a card could appear in more than one group.

Ed
*- mece: Mutually Exclusive, Collectively Exaustive

They should be MECE, otherwise it's no real challenge (or half so frustrating)

Dividing things into groups is fun!  I think prioritizing certain categories is a good way to determine whether Harem is a treasure or victory card (assuming you want the categories to be mutually exclusive), so I like that.  If you already have the list done, I would say go ahead and post it.  Then everyone can get into arguments about where things belong, and people like arguing.  Is the idea to rank them within each group?

BTW, for BoM and Governor, I think that for the sake of consistency (assuming I'm understanding your priority system correctly), BoM would be a junker (since it can be a Sea Hag, Marauder, etc.), and Governor would be...well I guess a drawer.  But shouldn't Drawer and Lab-Drawer be flipped?  Otherwise, Laboratory, Caravan, Wishing Well, etc. all get caught in the Drawer category before they make it to Lab Drawer.  Lab-Drawer is a subset of Drawer, so everything that would be a Lab-Drawer is a Drawer.  If you flip them then Governor would be Lab-Drawer.  (Also, I would rename them Terminal Draw and Non-Terminal Draw, but maybe that's just me.)

Also, I'm not really sure I understand what Money Carers is, but I guess that's where Peddler-type cards would fall, as well as Woodcutter, Nomad Camp, etc.?  I might consider separating terminal money from non-terminal money (there's a big difference between the function of Peddler and Woodcutter), but maybe the categories wouldn't be big enough then?  I guess it's up to you.

Very good points on the Draws, I'll change that right off. Also, Victorys need to be the last category if not Nobles will get stuck there, which would feel weird if Harems go to Treasures in my opinion.

Money Carer is.. well.. those left behind, there could be a subgroup with terminals vs. non-terminals there as well.   

I post the list soon, need to do some changes first. Although I like arguing threads it's scary to try to look as if I knew something so need to be careful. Very careful. Thanks for the feedback. I give it a try as soon as I can.

[Just a Rube]

Just to confirm "Deck-Hurter" is essentially non-junking attacks? So Scrying Pool, Militia, Knights, etc.

Before "Money-Carer", you might want +Buy? It's an important category in its own right.

[hockeysemlan]

Just to confirm "Deck-Hurter" is essentially non-junking attacks? So Scrying Pool, Militia, Knights, etc.

Before "Money-Carer", you might want +Buy? It's an important category in its own right.

Mhm, even though Scrying Pool is more of a "lab-drawer" Non- terminal drawer with an attack.

+Buy is a vanilla-effect in my mind. Too many different cards have +buy for it to be really meaningful as an own category.

[GeoLib]

This is cool. I think it would be interesting to do some ranking within the categories. A few things I noticed:

I'm not sure it's necessary to make them MECE because why not see how things stack up in various categories. Your roof list, your rules, though.
If you're prioritizing the categories, Nobles should be a village instead of a terminal draw, Tribute should be a village instead of terminal draw, and scrying pool and bureaucrat should be "deckhurters" (which I feel like would be more aptly named a non-junking attack).
Rabble is not a trasher, it's an attack.
I'm not sure I agree with your placement of outpost and possession as non-terminal draw. I guess there isn't really a better category for them, though.
If tactician is non-terminal draw, shouldn't wharf be as well?
Market square doesn't give any money, so I don't see how it fits in that category.
I agree with ednever that it makes sense to divide trashers into trash-for-benefit and just straight trashers rather than trasher and remodeler. Also, on that note, rats does not fit in your trasher category because it turns your junk into rats, with no net change in the number of cards in your deck. Neither does altar because it turns junk into 5s. They do fit into your remodeler category, however, or into the trash for benefit category.
You aren't making a distinction between "deck" and "hand." Draw increases your hand size.
Mystic doesn't increase your hand size. At most it keeps it the same, so it should go in the money category. Same with conspirator.
Jack of all trades is a trasher and squire is a village (both earlier categories than gainers).

Good work sorting everything though. Is this all the cards?

[AJD]

It seems to me that Band of Misfits would be best treated in a category including, say, Pawn, Nobles, Squire, Steward, and Governor—i.e., cards with versatile effects. (Though I can see the value of prioritizing Steward as a trasher, on the other hand.)

[SirPeebles]

I agree that Altar best fits as a Remodeler.  It doesn't fit perfectly, since usually Remodel cards care about the cost of the card you trash.  But I would say that Altar plays like a Remodeler, in that you replace junky cards with better cards.

[jsh357]

I've done this a few times and I usually end up having an 'oddball' category for things like BoM and Governor.  There are a few cards that are truly hard to nail down to specific categories.

[SirPeebles]

And abstractly, one can say that Rebuild, Remodel, and Mine are all the same sort of card, but in practice they really don't play the same way at all.  Rebuild is really an Alt-VP card, at its heart.  Rebuild allows you to gain lots of points without ever needing to spend more than $5.

[blueblimp]

Worth a look: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=2996.0.

[timchen]

I think if the goal is trying to rank them (which seems quite meaningful to me), then the lists need not be mutual exclusive. And this can give quite useful information. But then it still does not confer directly to strategy, as the cost still plays an important role.

[hockeysemlan]

This is cool. I think it would be interesting to do some ranking within the categories. A few things I noticed:

I'm not sure it's necessary to make them MECE because why not see how things stack up in various categories. Your roof list, your rules, though.
If you're prioritizing the categories, Nobles should be a village instead of a terminal draw, Tribute should be a village instead of terminal draw, and scrying pool and bureaucrat should be "deckhurters" (which I feel like would be more aptly named a non-junking attack).
Rabble is not a trasher, it's an attack.
I'm not sure I agree with your placement of outpost and possession as non-terminal draw. I guess there isn't really a better category for them, though.
If tactician is non-terminal draw, shouldn't wharf be as well?
Market square doesn't give any money, so I don't see how it fits in that category.
I agree with ednever that it makes sense to divide trashers into trash-for-benefit and just straight trashers rather than trasher and remodeler. Also, on that note, rats does not fit in your trasher category because it turns your junk into rats, with no net change in the number of cards in your deck. Neither does altar because it turns junk into 5s. They do fit into your remodeler category, however, or into the trash for benefit category.
You aren't making a distinction between "deck" and "hand." Draw increases your hand size.
Mystic doesn't increase your hand size. At most it keeps it the same, so it should go in the money category. Same with conspirator.
Jack of all trades is a trasher and squire is a village (both earlier categories than gainers).

Good work sorting everything though. Is this all the cards?

Thanks a lot!

You're right about Nobles and Tribute, although, the reason why I didn't put them in villages is because they doesn't give +2 actions every time. The wording with "possibility" in that clause is for Throning cards, they are not really villages either, but more that than anything else it seems. What Nobles and Tribute are the most I wouldn't really know.. 

Rabble is just a mistake, fixed.

My reasoning with Wharf would be that it gives you a terminal draw before it's duration- effect kicks in. Maybe not good enough, but Terminal Draw and Non-terminal dito is merely the same group anyway..

Yeah, Outpost and Possession doesn't fit properly anywhere, but in some matter they increases your deck handsize.. although in an unortodox way to say the least.

Rats is a remodeler :O.. waddyaknow.. "Remodel" is clearly an undercategory of trashing, they could easily be put together .

Ah, doh, decksize.. bah. Blaming that onto the fact that i'm no native speaker..

It should be every card, yes. Surely missed someone by mistake, but i hope not.

[hockeysemlan]

Market square doesn't give any money, so I don't see how it fits in that category.

Jack of all trades is a trasher and squire is a village (both earlier categories than gainers).

These two I missed to comment.. MS got there because first the category was named Markets.. it's really more a gainer. Fixed.
Jack is not garanteed to trash more cards than it gains silver so no, it's not a proper trasher in my definition (it's also one of those do EVERYTHING cards... they don't fit anywhere...) Squire doesn't give +2 actions every time you use it.. I do not know how to word a clause for Village that fits for TR and KC but closes out Tribute kind of cards...

[PitzerMike]

Contrary to what most people wrote I'd like to point out that for a meaningful ranking you'd have to define more narrow categories and cards would have to be able to appear on more than one list. Sou you can say "Ok, while it excels at role X it's not so hot at role Y".

Example: Apprentice

It fits into (at least) two categories: Trash for Benefit and just Trashers.
So on a board where there's Hoard you might be thinking "Oh, TfB could be really good here" and you could check the TfB ranking to see if Apprentice is any good in that situation (it is).
On another board you might be thinking "This engine could work really well if I can get rid of all my coppers quickly" and you could check the Trasher ranking to find out that Apprentice probably won't cut it because it's just not good in that role.

Cause where would you rank it now in the general trasher category? Somewhere in the middle because it's good at A but bad at B? This doesn't say anything about the card - strategy wise. In that it's really not all that different from the current ranking by price or WW's overall power ranking.

So yeah, I guess what I'm trying to say is that a ranking is only meaningful as strategy advice if the categories are narrow enough. And then cards can't be mutually exclusive.

[Just a Rube]

Example: Apprentice

It fits into (at least) two categories: Trash for Benefit and just Trashers.

Apprentice is an even better example, because it's also non-terminal draw, and that's a big aspect of the card.

[Jack Rudd]

Scrying Pool is another good example of being much more important in a lower category than the top one of your classification. As a deckhurter, it's one of the weakest attacks in the game - you'd never get it for its attack. But as non-terminal draw...