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Author Topic: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)  (Read 144138 times)

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RTT

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #150 on: August 22, 2013, 04:38:12 am »
0

Who really cares about the trueskill from bots.??
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Ratsia

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #151 on: August 22, 2013, 05:12:16 am »
+10

Who really cares about the trueskill from bots.??
I only looked at them for the reason that they might reveal something about the Goko rating system (and possibly about Trueskill in the context of Dominion as well, even though the underlying mechanisms are known), out of academic interest as someone who has (very briefly) worked with designing such rating systems.

Potential under/overestimation of bot skill in Goko is also relevant from a meta game design perspective. While hardcore Dominion players might not care about the internal ranking in Goko, the leaderboard is an integral part of the product Goko is offering and non-negligible part of their customers play against bots frequently enough to be affected by such potential bias in their quest of playing the meta game of leaderboard climbing.

Edit: Also, if the bots would, for some reason, have biased estimates in Trueskill, playing against them could be used to game the system. You probably couldn't reach the very top that way, since they have so low skill, but maybe the average players could  get a few extra levels that could matter for a contest amongst a group of friends?
« Last Edit: August 22, 2013, 05:16:24 am by Ratsia »
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #152 on: August 23, 2013, 06:49:14 pm »
0

Who really cares about the trueskill from bots.??
I only looked at them for the reason that they might reveal something about the Goko rating system (and possibly about Trueskill in the context of Dominion as well, even though the underlying mechanisms are known), out of academic interest as someone who has (very briefly) worked with designing such rating systems.

Potential under/overestimation of bot skill in Goko is also relevant from a meta game design perspective. While hardcore Dominion players might not care about the internal ranking in Goko, the leaderboard is an integral part of the product Goko is offering and non-negligible part of their customers play against bots frequently enough to be affected by such potential bias in their quest of playing the meta game of leaderboard climbing.

Edit: Also, if the bots would, for some reason, have biased estimates in Trueskill, playing against them could be used to game the system. You probably couldn't reach the very top that way, since they have so low skill, but maybe the average players could  get a few extra levels that could matter for a contest amongst a group of friends?
 
I am sure in casual you could reach the top by playing the bots by pre-selecting an engine kingdom they have no chance of winning
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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #153 on: August 23, 2013, 06:50:34 pm »
+2

Who really cares about the trueskill from bots.??
I only looked at them for the reason that they might reveal something about the Goko rating system (and possibly about Trueskill in the context of Dominion as well, even though the underlying mechanisms are known), out of academic interest as someone who has (very briefly) worked with designing such rating systems.

Potential under/overestimation of bot skill in Goko is also relevant from a meta game design perspective. While hardcore Dominion players might not care about the internal ranking in Goko, the leaderboard is an integral part of the product Goko is offering and non-negligible part of their customers play against bots frequently enough to be affected by such potential bias in their quest of playing the meta game of leaderboard climbing.

Edit: Also, if the bots would, for some reason, have biased estimates in Trueskill, playing against them could be used to game the system. You probably couldn't reach the very top that way, since they have so low skill, but maybe the average players could  get a few extra levels that could matter for a contest amongst a group of friends?
 
I am sure in casual you could reach the top by playing the bots by pre-selecting an engine kingdom they have no chance of winning
Rats and Ambassador.
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GeoLib

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #154 on: August 30, 2013, 11:37:41 pm »
0

Just got this error message when trying to go to the site:

Unhandled exception (probably a programming error). Please report in the forums if you can reproduce it.
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Watno

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #155 on: August 31, 2013, 04:03:45 pm »
0

I just got the same message.
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SCSN

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #156 on: September 04, 2013, 08:43:12 am »
+4

Looks like I've joined the ranks of the bots:

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ragingduckd

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #157 on: September 04, 2013, 08:47:01 am »
+2

Looks like I've joined the ranks of the bots:



Well, maybe Villager Bot will be as strong as you are once he's played a couple hundred more games...
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #158 on: September 08, 2013, 02:16:59 pm »
0

I'm not sure if this is a bug or not, but the uncertainty value should decrease as your number of recent games increases right? Because just played ~10 games and at the start of the day my 3sigma was 10.18 (I think) and now it's 10.23. I could be wrong on the exact numbers, but I know it increased as I played games.
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SCSN

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #159 on: September 08, 2013, 02:24:43 pm »
0

If your recent results have been anomalous relative to your previous ones (either winning or losing more often than expected), your sigma should increase.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #160 on: September 08, 2013, 02:33:34 pm »
0

If your recent results have been anomalous relative to your previous ones (either winning or losing more often than expected), your sigma should increase.

Yes, I thought about that, I just didn't know if the Trueskill algorithm actually worked that way. Because on iso your uncertainty would always decrease with the number of recent games, I never noticed any dependency on the outcomes.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #161 on: September 08, 2013, 03:56:40 pm »
0

If your recent results have been anomalous relative to your previous ones (either winning or losing more often than expected), your sigma should increase.

Yes, I thought about that, I just didn't know if the Trueskill algorithm actually worked that way. Because on iso your uncertainty would always decrease with the number of recent games, I never noticed any dependency on the outcomes.
I am pretty sure TrueSkill does work this way. The reason you didn't see it on iso was because it had the upward time increment, which prevented you from ever (or at least, almost ever) getting to the point where the general downward trend from more games -> more certainty to be thus counterbalanced.



I am sure this isn't a bug, though whether it's more accurate or not is less clear.

soulnet

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #162 on: September 22, 2013, 03:39:23 pm »
+1

Feature request: Would it be easy to include goko's official rating scores in the table? I would like to see a comparison of both.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #163 on: September 22, 2013, 04:00:14 pm »
+2

Feature request: Would it be easy to include goko's official rating scores in the table? I would like to see a comparison of both.

AI has said that it's a real pain to scrape the entire Goko leaderboard.
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soulnet

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #164 on: September 22, 2013, 06:05:22 pm »
0

AI has said that it's a real pain to scrape the entire Goko leaderboard.

Ok, nevermind then. Thanks for the quick response.
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GeoLib

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #165 on: September 22, 2013, 08:01:40 pm »
0

I realize this might not be relevant for this particular leaderboard, as AI has indicated that he just wants to implement the isotropic formula and be down with it, but perhaps this will be useful for those who expressed an interest in creating a better rating system for Dominion (like WW).

I was thinking that perhaps it would make sense to implement something that takes into account first player advantage. Like the expectation for a win by first player is increased. Since turn order is random the effect of on rating would probably be minimal, but it still seems like something that makes sense to include and could be one solution to the oft-repeated question of how to mitigate the P1 edge. Additionally, if this algorithm were interested in multi-player games, it could increase the uncertainty on the outcome with more players (and decrease the expectation that p4 wins). Anyway, just a thought I had. I wouldn't be surprised if someone had already considered it, but I thought I'd offer it here.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2013, 08:52:27 pm by GeoLib »
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ragingduckd

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #166 on: September 22, 2013, 08:05:27 pm »
+5

... as AI has indicated that he just wants to implement the isotropic formula and be down with it, ...

Oh yeah...

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ragingduckd

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #167 on: October 07, 2013, 07:17:30 am »
+3

... as AI has indicated that he just wants to implement the isotropic formula and be down with it, ...

Oh yeah...

Sorry I haven't gotten around to this. My development schedule is as erratic as my personal schedule.

I just banned ottocar from the Isotropish leaderboard for cheating way too blatantly. No public witch hunts please, but if anyone else out there is cheating in some equally obvious way, feel free to PM me about it.
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Kirian

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #168 on: October 09, 2013, 12:24:43 pm »
+3

... as AI has indicated that he just wants to implement the isotropic formula and be down with it, ...

Oh yeah...

Sorry I haven't gotten around to this. My development schedule is as erratic as my personal schedule.

I just banned ottocar from the Isotropish leaderboard for cheating way too blatantly. No public witch hunts please, but if anyone else out there is cheating in some equally obvious way, feel free to PM me about it.

I need to play against this 11111 guy, he seems to suck.
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soulnet

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #169 on: October 09, 2013, 01:29:30 pm »
0

I need to play against this 11111 guy, he seems to suck.

There is a great thing to do with someone that sucks that is not playing Dominion.
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TheMirrorMan

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #170 on: October 21, 2013, 07:49:01 am »
0

Right behind you as second human player in the list SCSN ! I'm not an addict, it's cool ...
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Qvist

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #171 on: October 26, 2013, 03:45:43 am »
0

Big thanks AI for doing this. This is great.

Also:

I did what I never managed on Iso: Level 40! Yay.

Ditto. Yeah. Now I only need to play again to appear on the full leaderboard.

yed

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #172 on: November 15, 2013, 04:52:25 am »
0

Hi,

   I have just seen a new way to lose points while supposedly winning

 http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20131114/log.50d804c7e4b0b34255505855.1384490982851.txt

  This game ended on my opponents turn 12. I assumed that while he was ahead, he saw that I was most likely going to win and ended it. If you look at the bottom of the log there are two game over boxes, one with my opponent winning and one with me winning. I noticed something was wrong when I went to the leaderboard post game and saw that while there was a +21 next to my name, I had lost about 20 points. I would have lost about 40 if he had won because of rating differences. Its like we played two games in that one and split them.

   Has anyone seen this before or is it new?

AI how do you parse this log?
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ragingduckd

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #173 on: November 15, 2013, 05:14:03 am »
+1

Hi,

   I have just seen a new way to lose points while supposedly winning

 http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20131114/log.50d804c7e4b0b34255505855.1384490982851.txt

  This game ended on my opponents turn 12. I assumed that while he was ahead, he saw that I was most likely going to win and ended it. If you look at the bottom of the log there are two game over boxes, one with my opponent winning and one with me winning. I noticed something was wrong when I went to the leaderboard post game and saw that while there was a +21 next to my name, I had lost about 20 points. I would have lost about 40 if he had won because of rating differences. Its like we played two games in that one and split them.

   Has anyone seen this before or is it new?

AI how do you parse this log?

My parser reads the final number of VPs from the log and counts how many turns each player took.  It then draws its own conclusions about who won.

It checks those conclusions against what Goko prints at the bottom of the log, but it ignores any discrepancy in the known cases where Goko screws up the rankings and/or number of turns.  See the conditions at the end of the parser's code.

This is one of those known situations, so the parser ignores the ranks listed in the log (both versions) and records its own conclusions.  From the log search engine:

Code: [Select]
2013/11/14 20:49
Player: Rank: VPs: Turns: Quit?
kylar         2nd 5 12
untiedshoe 1st 12 12
Provinces / Estates - Caravan, Copper, Coppersmith, Curse, Duchy, Estate, Forager, Fortress, Gold, JackOfAllTrades, Mine, Nobles, Potion, Province, Silver, Steward, Talisman, Vineyard
Log Viewer Kingdom
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Salvager Extension | Isotropish Leaderboard | Game Data | Log Search & other toys | Salvager Bug Reports

Salvager not working for me at all today. ... Please help! I can't go back to playing without it like an animal!

yed

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #174 on: November 15, 2013, 05:50:15 am »
0

See the conditions at the end of the parser's code.
Wow, it is possible to screw it this many ways...
« Last Edit: November 15, 2013, 05:51:21 am by yed »
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