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Author Topic: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)  (Read 144047 times)

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nomnomnom

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #125 on: August 04, 2013, 03:10:54 pm »
+1

Now loads partial leaderboard by default. Enabled column sorting on the server side. Both of these should help with performance/crash issues.
Apparently, the leaderboard hasn't been updated since that change.
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ragingduckd

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #126 on: August 05, 2013, 03:40:21 am »
+1

Now loads partial leaderboard by default. Enabled column sorting on the server side. Both of these should help with performance/crash issues.
Apparently, the leaderboard hasn't been updated since that change.

Whoops. I thought I'd squashed that bug. Fixed now. Thanks.
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vintermann

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #127 on: August 05, 2013, 07:40:05 am »
0

My write-in suggestion (I'm not very invested in this so don't take it too seriously): Remi Coulom's Whole History Rating.

It's similar to TrueSkill, but instead of incremental updates to a skill and variance parameter, it calculates "the exact maximum a posteriori over the whole rating history of all players". It's more computing intensive than TrueSkill, but still fairly fast.
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GeoLib

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #128 on: August 08, 2013, 01:54:45 am »
+3

My number of games doesn't seem to be going up. I only started keeping track quantitatively today, but I don't think it's moved in a while. It's certainly been stuck on 59 all day today (despite me having played 5ish games). My rating on the other hand, has changed.   ???
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ragingduckd

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #129 on: August 08, 2013, 02:18:46 am »
0

My number of games doesn't seem to be going up. I only started keeping track quantitatively today, but I don't think it's moved in a while. It's certainly been stuck on 59 all day today (despite me having played 5ish games). My rating on the other hand, has changed.   ???

Looks like the game count isn't updating properly... you have 127 80* rated games, not 59.

* 80 games of the sort that the leaderboard counts (two players, pro, not guest)
« Last Edit: August 08, 2013, 05:00:18 am by ragingduckd »
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GeoLib

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #130 on: August 08, 2013, 03:20:01 pm »
0

OK. It says 80 now. Not sure when I played 47 non-pro games though... Would that number include adventures (the games that aren't counted)?
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ragingduckd

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #131 on: August 08, 2013, 03:36:38 pm »
0

OK. It says 80 now. Not sure when I played 47 non-pro games though... Would that number include adventures (the games that aren't counted)?

Here's what I have for you in my database:

  rating   | count
-----------+-------
 unknown   |    14
 adventure |    27
 casual    |     4
 pro       |    83


"unknown" is games before 5/12/2013, which aren't included in the ratings or counted on the leaderboard. That leaves 3 pro games unaccounted for. One was excluded b/c it had 3+ players, but I'm not sure about the other two. Probably they were games where you beat 6500+ players. ;)
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GeoLib

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #132 on: August 08, 2013, 04:15:23 pm »
0

Haha. Probably not. Until recently I couldn't play any because of the rating caps. My leaderboard ranking is changing, but the number of games isn't again (it's stuck at 80). I just played at least 3 more games that should be counted (2 against bama and one against faust).
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GeoLib

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #133 on: August 08, 2013, 05:59:51 pm »
0

And now it's up to 84, which seems right. So I guess there's just some delay for updating number of games played but there isn't for rating shifts. That seems weird to me, but whatever.
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yed

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #134 on: August 10, 2013, 07:53:15 am »
0

Quote
Last recorded game finished 293 min, 41 seconds ago
Something is wrong...
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ragingduckd

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #135 on: August 10, 2013, 08:20:42 am »
+1

Quote
Last recorded game finished 293 min, 41 seconds ago
Something is wrong...

Thanks. Fixed the bug. It wasn't creating the new day's log directory at midnight. Updating now.
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sudgy

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #136 on: August 10, 2013, 01:59:20 pm »
0

So, has my skill increased since the good ol' days on iso, or is that the "ish" of isotropish?
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

ragingduckd

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #137 on: August 10, 2013, 04:42:21 pm »
+4

So, has my skill increased since the good ol' days on iso, or is that the "ish" of isotropish?

It's hard to say. The starting variance is 3x higher and it doesn't include the daily increase in variance. So it's not as sensitive to how often you play and it's quicker to adjust at first and slower to adjust afterwards. There's probably more value in comparing how you stack up relative to others than comparing the levels directly.

None of this was really intentional, btw. I set it up some days before dougz told me his actual implementation details and then I was hesitatant to keep switching the leaderboard around. Maybe I should just switch to Isotropic's exact algorithm and be done with it.
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yed

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #138 on: August 10, 2013, 05:27:28 pm »
+7

Maybe I should just switch to Isotropic's exact algorithm and be done with it.
I vote for this.
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Watno

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #139 on: August 12, 2013, 12:44:27 pm »
+1

I did what I never managed on Iso: Level 40! Yay.
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Slyfox

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #140 on: August 12, 2013, 11:12:52 pm »
+2

Maybe I should just switch to Isotropic's exact algorithm and be done with it.
Yes, please.
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ragingduckd

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #141 on: August 14, 2013, 05:18:41 am »
+7

So, has my skill increased since the good ol' days on iso, or is that the "ish" of isotropish?

It's hard to say. The starting variance is 3x higher and it doesn't include the daily increase in variance. So it's not as sensitive to how often you play and it's quicker to adjust at first and slower to adjust afterwards. There's probably more value in comparing how you stack up relative to others than comparing the levels directly.

None of this was really intentional, btw. I set it up some days before dougz told me his actual implementation details and then I was hesitatant to keep switching the leaderboard around. Maybe I should just switch to Isotropic's exact algorithm and be done with it.

Ok, it seems best to me too. So if anyone has a strong objection, then now's the time to say so. Otherwise I'm definitely going to implement the Isotropic algorithm just as soon as I get around to it.
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Ratsia

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #142 on: August 21, 2013, 04:32:21 am »
+2

The earlier observations seem to suggest that the Goko ranking is fairly reasonable (that is, close to the trueskill leaderboard) near the top of the ranking. Has anyone looked at how they compare for the lower ranks? Or is it too hard to retrieve a full Goko ranking?

I'm asking because I noticed by chance that the bots seem to rank higher in the Trueskill list.

Bottington has now level 14 in Trueskill and rating 3576 in Goko (and three other bots are, btw, between levels 12-13 so their levels are quite stable). I checked three human players who also have level 14 in Trueskill (and enough games, at least 500 for each) and each of those had rating around 4500 in Goko, full 1000 points higher. The same holds for ranks; Bottington is ranked 886 in Trueskill and around 1500 in Goko, whereas the humans were around 900 in Trueskill and around 700 in Goko. The opposite check shows similar signs. Three arbitrary managers ranked near Bottington in Goko had levels 4, 8 and 11 in Isotropic. These are again lower than Bottington's rank in Trueskill.


Overall, it looks like the bots have at least some hundreds of points too low rating in Goko or, equivalently, perhaps 5-10 levels too high rating in Trueskill. If we believe Trueskill to be a better estimate, then this implies that pushing one's rating up in Goko by beating the bots is actually a bit harder than it should be. In fact, this also matches my own experience. I've played primarily against bots (because I very often need to pause during playing) and my rank in Trueskill is 156 compared to 673 in Goko.


Disclaimer: The above observation might simply be because of very small and potentially biased sample.
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SCSN

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #143 on: August 21, 2013, 05:44:53 am »
+4

I think the bots just haven't played enough games for their rating to converge.
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ragingduckd

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #144 on: August 21, 2013, 08:28:09 am »
+1

Quote from: Ratsia l. k=topic=8900.msg283354#msg283354 date=1377073941
Has anyone looked at how they compare for the lower ranks? Or is it too hard to retrieve a full Goko ranking?
It's a nuisance. I don't have the data anyway.

Quote
I'm asking because I noticed by chance that the bots seem to rank higher in the Trueskill list.
TS doesn't count games with guests or 3+ players. It's hard to know what effect those have on the Bot ratings.
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Stealth Tomato

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #145 on: August 21, 2013, 01:04:21 pm »
0

How difficult is it to create a system that includes 3P and 4P the way Isotropic did? (1st records a win over all other players; everyone else records a loss against 1st; I forget whether 3rd vs. 2nd was a draw or a non-game.)

Edit: I accidentally hit the Edit button instead of reply. Sorry. --ragingduckd
« Last Edit: August 21, 2013, 01:30:03 pm by ragingduckd »
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ragingduckd

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #146 on: August 21, 2013, 01:30:19 pm »
+1

How difficult is it to create a system that includes 3P and 4P the way Isotropic did? (1st records a win over all other players; everyone else records a loss against 1st; I forget whether 3rd vs. 2nd was a draw or a non-game.)

Trueskill is actually well designed for this. I've excluded 3+ player games because I feel that they represent a different skill set.

That said, anyone who's interested in this is certainly welcome to use my code and database to implement it. It's all open source, after all.
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sudgy

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #147 on: August 21, 2013, 10:32:32 pm »
0

Edit: I accidentally hit the Edit button instead of reply. Sorry. --ragingduckd

Oh, I've done this...
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

Ratsia

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #148 on: August 22, 2013, 02:47:32 am »
0

I think the bots just haven't played enough games for their rating to converge.
I guess this was a joke, but you are kind of right anyway. Today Lord Bottington has only level 9 and is down 300 positions, while Conqueror has reached level 16. Despite 5000+ games for some of the bots their levels are fluctuating heavily, and I probably simply happened to look at the ratings when Bottington was unusually high.

Anyway, high fluctuation in the mean skill is interesting in itself. Trueskill often has the tendency of the uncertainty to drop artificially low, which also prevents large changes in skill, but perhaps the bots truly vary so much in actual skill that their rating never stabilizes? I guess that would be caused by their AI being so much worse on some kingdoms than it is on others.
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yed

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #149 on: August 22, 2013, 03:35:24 am »
0

I think bot's rating is affected by series of games with same result. If newbies lose to them a lot they go up, if someone good is climbing to 5000, they go down...
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