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Author Topic: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)  (Read 144076 times)

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qmech

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #100 on: July 29, 2013, 03:29:54 am »
+5

Is anyone else having the problem that this site is almost without fail causing crashes/extraordinarily high lag?

Yes, I am having 1/5 games crash right now.

Edit: My 99th post is reply 99 to this thread; neat :)

Unfortunately:



This is Andrew's leaderboard thread.  However!  Whining about Goko is encouraged—any thread over here should do.
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yed

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #101 on: July 29, 2013, 03:45:28 am »
+1

This is a plausible algorithm, but I don't see it in dougz's code
So this line
Quote
sigma=sqrt(pl.skill[1] ** 2 + GAMMA ** 2)
https://github.com/dougz/trueskill/blob/master/trueskill.py#L345
does something else?
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ragingduckd

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #102 on: July 29, 2013, 04:43:32 am »
0

This is a plausible algorithm, but I don't see it in dougz's code
So this line
Quote
sigma=sqrt(pl.skill[1] ** 2 + GAMMA ** 2)
https://github.com/dougz/trueskill/blob/master/trueskill.py#L345
does something else?

Yeah, that updating is a normal part of the Vanilla TS algorithm. It happens once per game, not once per day. But going back to the original quote:

Quote
(For those interested in the details, I've set β = 25, γ = σ0 / 100 (applied daily), and the draw probability at 5%.)

... I understand your original statement now. I agree that dougz may have meant that he's doing the once-a-day updating in addition to or instead of the once-per-game updating. I think I'll wait until he chimes in to make any such changes though.
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yed

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #103 on: July 29, 2013, 04:57:01 am »
0

Yeah, that updating is a normal part of the Vanilla TS algorithm. It happens once per game, not once per day. But going back to the original quote:
Ok, my bad. Thx for explaining.
... I understand your original statement now. I agree that dougz may have meant that he's doing the once-a-day updating in addition to or instead of the once-per-game updating. I think I'll wait until he chimes in to make any such changes though.
Sure, sounds reasonable.
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Fabian

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #104 on: July 29, 2013, 08:29:36 am »
+2

How impossible would it be to add a feature to the chrome extension where, instead of displaying the Goko pro rating, you just display the isotropic drunkensailor leaderboard level, or something similar? Now that we have a real rating system, the Goko ratings somehow seem even more like a joke than usual.
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Watno

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #105 on: July 29, 2013, 09:25:25 am »
0

How long till Stef gets to level 60?
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ragingduckd

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #106 on: July 29, 2013, 09:33:47 am »
0

How long till Stef gets to level 60?

Whenever I feel like letting him. ;)
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Kirian

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #107 on: July 29, 2013, 09:36:23 am »
+11

How long till Stef gets to level 60?

Stef doesn't get to level 60.  Stef makes level 60 come to him.
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SCSN

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #108 on: July 29, 2013, 11:11:29 am »
+5

How impossible would it be to add a feature to the chrome extension where, instead of displaying the Goko pro rating, you just display the isotropic drunkensailor leaderboard level, or something similar? Now that we have a real rating system, the Goko ratings somehow seem even more like a joke than usual.

Well, they look pretty similar to me. This TS thing has increased my faith in Goko's leaderboard rather than decreased it.
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Fabian

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #109 on: July 29, 2013, 11:43:22 am »
0

How impossible would it be to add a feature to the chrome extension where, instead of displaying the Goko pro rating, you just display the isotropic drunkensailor leaderboard level, or something similar? Now that we have a real rating system, the Goko ratings somehow seem even more like a joke than usual.

Well, they look pretty similar to me. This TS thing has increased my faith in Goko's leaderboard rather than decreased it.

Well, losing ~5 games in a row won't shoot me from 5th to 30th place on the isotropic leaderboard, that's for sure.
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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #110 on: July 29, 2013, 01:13:10 pm »
+1

How long till Stef gets to level 60?

Stef doesn't get to level 60.  Stef makes level 60 come to him.

Wait, Stef is Chuck Norris and lives in Soviet Russia?
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

Powerman

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #111 on: July 29, 2013, 04:53:10 pm »
0

I don't like this.  I'm rank 22 in both Casual and Pro on GOKO, but only rank 39 here  :'(
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Blueswan

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #112 on: July 31, 2013, 01:58:10 pm »
0

I'm level 32 and ranked #159. Amazing. That is WAY higher than expected.
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Watno

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #113 on: July 31, 2013, 02:03:45 pm »
0

How impossible would it be to add a feature to the chrome extension where, instead of displaying the Goko pro rating, you just display the isotropic drunkensailor leaderboard level, or something similar? Now that we have a real rating system, the Goko ratings somehow seem even more like a joke than usual.

Well, they look pretty similar to me. This TS thing has increased my faith in Goko's leaderboard rather than decreased it.

Well, losing ~5 games in a row won't shoot me from 5th to 30th place on the isotropic leaderboard, that's for sure.
Have you actually tested this?
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Fabian

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #114 on: July 31, 2013, 02:07:08 pm »
0

How impossible would it be to add a feature to the chrome extension where, instead of displaying the Goko pro rating, you just display the isotropic drunkensailor leaderboard level, or something similar? Now that we have a real rating system, the Goko ratings somehow seem even more like a joke than usual.

Well, they look pretty similar to me. This TS thing has increased my faith in Goko's leaderboard rather than decreased it.

Well, losing ~5 games in a row won't shoot me from 5th to 30th place on the isotropic leaderboard, that's for sure.
Have you actually tested this?

Let's just say the other night when I posted it, I was #30 on the goko leaderboard and 12th or 13th on the isotropish.

The goko ratings are way way too swingy and hugely depend on your latest results. Of course, the best players tend to have had good results in the recent past too, but, you know.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2013, 02:08:12 pm by Fabian »
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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #115 on: July 31, 2013, 02:08:19 pm »
0

How impossible would it be to add a feature to the chrome extension where, instead of displaying the Goko pro rating, you just display the isotropic drunkensailor leaderboard level, or something similar? Now that we have a real rating system, the Goko ratings somehow seem even more like a joke than usual.

Well, they look pretty similar to me. This TS thing has increased my faith in Goko's leaderboard rather than decreased it.

Well, losing ~5 games in a row won't shoot me from 5th to 30th place on the isotropic leaderboard, that's for sure.
Have you actually tested this?

Yesterday I was 50 places higher on AI's leaderboard than on Goko's.  Losing games drops me 1 or 2 places at most.  Seems a lot less swingy to me.
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loppo

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #116 on: July 31, 2013, 02:19:38 pm »
+1

The goko ratings are way way too swingy and hugely depend on your latest results. Of course, the best players tend to have had good results in the recent past too, but, you know.

In all fairness, the goko ratings have been made so swingy to get rid of the cheaters that "quitted" their way up the leaderboard. They were less swingy before, and eventually they will revert this to normal soon.

If i look at the goko leaderboard, if find names in the top spot that eventually belong there, and all of the cheaters are gone. For me thats a good sign: swingy or not, the right peolpe are at the top.

quote from getsatisaction on this very topic:

You are right: the subtraction is too tough now. This is on purpose because we had a situation where some people were cheating their way up the leaderboard by quitting (before quits were penalized) and setting it tough means that you have to actively play -- and play at your rating level -- in order to maintain your rating. It's a little more like "king of the hill". Remember, it's happening to everybody, not just you, so it's fair. But now that the overrated quit-cheaters have had time to drop, it's getting time to revert these setting to be more moderate.

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #117 on: July 31, 2013, 02:54:44 pm »
0

Alright, now my level is more how it used to be.  And up a couple levels too, yay!
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

Polk5440

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #118 on: July 31, 2013, 03:40:23 pm »
+5

I don't like this.  I'm rank 22 in both Casual and Pro on GOKO, but only rank 39 here  :'(

My difference is even greater. I am #22 on Goko Pro and #63 on Isotropish.

I tend to move around a lot on both leaderboards because I play inconsistently (both in frequency of playing pro games and quality of play -- TV can be so distracting sometimes). For instance, I've moved about 150 places on Goko's leaderboard after coming back from vacation and a week of playing casual games with friends. But in June, I was in the top 50 before dropping out of the top 100 because of poor play.

I am motivated to keep my pro rating above now 6000 because then I can legitimately title those games "Polk, 5440+".
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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #119 on: August 01, 2013, 03:03:42 pm »
0

Judging between this, the Goko leaderboard, and the leaderboard from back in the Isotropic days, I've been about the 20th-best player on the internet for more than a year.

This despite about half of the 19 above me having changed in that time.
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ragingduckd

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #120 on: August 02, 2013, 03:39:35 pm »
0

From dougz in response to my questions (above):

Quote
No, I start with μ=25, σ=25/3 like everyone else.  But since I display "μ ± 3σ" on the leaderboard it shows up as 25 ± 25.

I may not have ever actually had the clamping on the upper end.

Choice of 5%: pulled out of thin air.

Yes, there was a small daily increase in σ.  (Moved 1% of the way back to 25/3, I think.)  I didn't want people to be able to camp out on the leaderboard by getting to a good position and then not playing.

So the current parameters aren't quite Isotropic's. The "Isotropish" board is tougher on new players and less tough on inactive players. I'm not sure what influence the different draw percentage has.

Edit: The current parameters probably also lead to a greater overall spread in ratings, so top ratings are higher and bottom ratings are lower. So until/unless I change this, don't try to make much of direct comparisons between Isotropic and Isotropish.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2013, 03:59:05 pm by ragingduckd »
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ragingduckd

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #121 on: August 02, 2013, 06:32:24 pm »
+2

Now loads partial leaderboard by default. Enabled column sorting on the server side. Both of these should help with performance/crash issues.
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blueblimp

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #122 on: August 03, 2013, 08:36:04 pm »
+2

I suspect Goko's algorithm is more favourable to playing lower-level players than this leaderboard. I label my games 4000++ so I play a lot of players in the 4000-5000 range and tend to win a lot as a result. On the Goko leaderboard, this tends to keep me around the top 10 (right now at #4 due to a lucky streak) whereas on the isotropic-style leaderboard I'm sitting around #16.

Also there must be a lot less competition on Goko compared to isotropic, because there I would hang around the top 50-ish.
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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #123 on: August 03, 2013, 10:07:44 pm »
0

Also there must be a lot less competition on Goko compared to isotropic, because there I would hang around the top 50-ish.
I think there's probably more competition. It's just that the people competing on Goko aren't as competitive as the ones on Isotropic were.
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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #124 on: August 03, 2013, 10:26:55 pm »
0

Also there must be a lot less competition on Goko compared to isotropic, because there I would hang around the top 50-ish.
I think there's probably more competition. It's just that the people competing on Goko aren't as competitive as the ones on Isotropic were.
If you define competition as the number of people around your skill level, then Goko is less competitive at mid-high levels. The very top is probably around the same as Iso.
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