Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 ... 13  All

Author Topic: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)  (Read 144062 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

SCSN

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2227
  • Respect: +7140
    • View Profile
Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #50 on: July 22, 2013, 07:13:42 pm »
+4


Maybe the best answer to "which way to sort" is "who cares? Just click whichever column you like".

Good thing -Stef- dropped his hyphens, now I can at least outrank him via alphabetical sort.
Logged

Kirian

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7096
  • Shuffle iT Username: Kirian
  • An Unbalanced Equation
  • Respect: +9411
    • View Profile
Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #51 on: July 22, 2013, 08:42:26 pm »
0

The other thing to consider is that if you are dumping data an HTML table, it's really easy to provide options to sort by various columns.  I used this sorttable Javascript library a lot in councilroom. 

Maybe the best answer to "which way to sort" is "who cares? Just click whichever column you like".

This.
Logged
Kirian's Law of f.DS jokes:  Any sufficiently unexplained joke is indistinguishable from serious conversation.

Kirian

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7096
  • Shuffle iT Username: Kirian
  • An Unbalanced Equation
  • Respect: +9411
    • View Profile
Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #52 on: July 22, 2013, 08:43:24 pm »
0

How do i find me? is there a  search engine for names? that would be awesome.

Ctrl-F doesn't work for you?
Logged
Kirian's Law of f.DS jokes:  Any sufficiently unexplained joke is indistinguishable from serious conversation.

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4381
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #53 on: July 22, 2013, 08:54:32 pm »
0

How do i find me? is there a  search engine for names? that would be awesome.
If you're in windows, ctrl+f is your friend.

sudgy

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3431
  • Shuffle iT Username: sudgy
  • It's pronounced "SOO-jee"
  • Respect: +2706
    • View Profile
Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #54 on: July 22, 2013, 09:21:06 pm »
0

Woah, how am I nine levels behind Stef?
Logged
If you're wondering what my avatar is, watch this.

Check out my logic puzzle blog!

   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

mail-mi

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1298
  • Shuffle iT Username: mail-mi
  • Come play some Forum Mafia with us!
  • Respect: +1364
    • View Profile
Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #55 on: July 22, 2013, 11:13:30 pm »
0

How do i find me? is there a  search engine for names? that would be awesome.

Ctrl-F doesn't work for you?
{facepalm}
Logged
I currently imagine mail-mi wearing a dark trenchcoat and a bowler hat, hunched over a bit, toothpick in his mouth, holding a gun in his pocket.  One bead of sweat trickling down his nose.

'And what is it that ye shall hope for? Behold I say unto you that ye shall have hope through the atonement of Christ and the power of his resurrection, to be raised unto life eternal, and this because of your faith in him according to the promise." - Moroni 7:41, the Book of Mormon

Kirian

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7096
  • Shuffle iT Username: Kirian
  • An Unbalanced Equation
  • Respect: +9411
    • View Profile
Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #56 on: July 22, 2013, 11:54:08 pm »
0

How do i find me? is there a  search engine for names? that would be awesome.

Ctrl-F doesn't work for you?
{facepalm}

It's all right, man, we all have those days.
Logged
Kirian's Law of f.DS jokes:  Any sufficiently unexplained joke is indistinguishable from serious conversation.

lespeutere

  • 2012 German Champion
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 488
  • Respect: +390
    • View Profile
Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #57 on: July 23, 2013, 07:47:55 am »
+1

Woah, how am I nine levels behind Stef?
You're saying "only 9" or "9, so many"?
Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11808
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (´。• ω •。`)
  • Respect: +12846
    • View Profile
    • Birds of Necama
Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #58 on: July 23, 2013, 08:24:22 am »
+3

Feature request: "Last updated on Tue, Jul 23 at 05:19 AM PDT (5 minutes ago)"
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's Creative Commons albums for free

sudgy

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3431
  • Shuffle iT Username: sudgy
  • It's pronounced "SOO-jee"
  • Respect: +2706
    • View Profile
Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #59 on: July 23, 2013, 02:13:33 pm »
0

Woah, how am I nine levels behind Stef?
You're saying "only 9" or "9, so many"?

"only 9".  On iso I was around level 13, and you know where he was...
Logged
If you're wondering what my avatar is, watch this.

Check out my logic puzzle blog!

   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

mail-mi

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1298
  • Shuffle iT Username: mail-mi
  • Come play some Forum Mafia with us!
  • Respect: +1364
    • View Profile
Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #60 on: July 27, 2013, 06:06:31 pm »
0

I was about level 1 on iso.

Now I'm 22. I feel so proud.
Logged
I currently imagine mail-mi wearing a dark trenchcoat and a bowler hat, hunched over a bit, toothpick in his mouth, holding a gun in his pocket.  One bead of sweat trickling down his nose.

'And what is it that ye shall hope for? Behold I say unto you that ye shall have hope through the atonement of Christ and the power of his resurrection, to be raised unto life eternal, and this because of your faith in him according to the promise." - Moroni 7:41, the Book of Mormon

StrongRhino

  • Witch
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 468
  • Shuffle iT Username: StrongRhino
  • Respect: +247
    • View Profile
Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #61 on: July 27, 2013, 07:51:05 pm »
0

I was 3. Now I'm 24.
Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11808
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (´。• ω •。`)
  • Respect: +12846
    • View Profile
    • Birds of Necama
Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #62 on: July 27, 2013, 08:14:20 pm »
+2

I was 3. Now I'm 24.
I'm 18... wait, this wasn't the age thread?
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's Creative Commons albums for free

HiveMindEmulator

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2222
  • Respect: +2118
    • View Profile
Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #63 on: July 27, 2013, 08:20:07 pm »
0

Logged

ragingduckd

  • Board Moderator
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1059
  • Respect: +3527
    • View Profile
Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #64 on: July 27, 2013, 08:53:15 pm »
0

I wrote to dougz asking for clarification on his TS implementation, but I'll ask the same questions here in case any of you know the answers. The quotes are from http://web.archive.org/web/20130116154350/http://dominion.isotropic.org/faq/

Quote
In a nutshell: skill is measured on a scale that goes from roughly 0 to 50 points. (Actually skill can be any number, but 99.8% of players should fall in the 0–50 range.) The skill range column is a 99.8% confidence interval — the system is 99.8% sure your true skill lies somewhere in that range. New players are assigned a skill of "25 ± 25", which is to say, we don't really have any idea what that person's skill is.

Does 25 +/- 25 mean that you're starting with mu=25, σ=25? If so, then 0-50 would be more like a 68% CI, right? The default for the other implementations I've seen is 25 +/- 8.66.  That is, σ=25/3.

Quote
The level column is the low end of your range, rounded down to an integer and clamped to the range [0, 50]. If we ignore the clamping, it is a conservative skill estimate in the sense that we are 99.9% confident that you are at least that skillful.

Did you eventually remove this on the upper end? I see a lot of people on your leaderboard who would be at large negative levels but are listed at 0. But I also see lespeutere and -Stef- over 50.

Quote
I've set β = 25, γ = σ0 / 100 (applied daily), and the draw probability at 5%.)

Empirically, I find more like a 1.75% draw rate. Was there any special reason for chooing 5%?

@Obi Wan Bonogi: You voted for isotropic's TS algorithm "without the decay," but dougz doesn't mention a decay in mu or a daily increase in σ. Can you clarify?
Logged
Salvager Extension | Isotropish Leaderboard | Game Data | Log Search & other toys | Salvager Bug Reports

Salvager not working for me at all today. ... Please help! I can't go back to playing without it like an animal!

jonts26

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2746
  • Shuffle iT Username: jonts
  • Respect: +3668
    • View Profile
Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #65 on: July 27, 2013, 08:59:39 pm »
+1

I'm pretty sure for iso initial sigma = 25/3 so the leaderboard value for a new player mu - 3*sigma is 25 ± 25. And the decay affects just the uncertainty parameter which comes into play with
Quote
γ = σ0 / 100 (applied daily)
Logged

ragingduckd

  • Board Moderator
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1059
  • Respect: +3527
    • View Profile
Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #66 on: July 27, 2013, 09:09:31 pm »
0

I'm pretty sure for iso initial sigma = 25/3 so the leaderboard value for a new player mu - 3*sigma is 25 ± 25. And the decay affects just the uncertainty parameter which comes into play with
Quote
γ = σ0 / 100 (applied daily)

The thing is, I'm using initial sigma=25/3 too but my final mu's and sigma's are both way smaller than isotropic's. I'm not sure what else I'm doing differently that could have such a large effect.
Logged
Salvager Extension | Isotropish Leaderboard | Game Data | Log Search & other toys | Salvager Bug Reports

Salvager not working for me at all today. ... Please help! I can't go back to playing without it like an animal!

yed

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 620
  • Shuffle iT Username: yed
  • Respect: +571
    • View Profile
Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #67 on: July 28, 2013, 03:19:59 am »
0

INITIAL_MU = 25.0
INITIAL_SIGMA = INITIAL_MU / 3.0
https://github.com/dougz/trueskill/blob/master/trueskill.py#L261

What do you use as BETA, EPSILON, GAMMA?
https://github.com/dougz/trueskill/blob/master/trueskill.py#L267
Logged

ragingduckd

  • Board Moderator
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1059
  • Respect: +3527
    • View Profile
Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #68 on: July 28, 2013, 04:46:23 am »
0

INITIAL_MU = 25.0
INITIAL_SIGMA = INITIAL_MU / 3.0
https://github.com/dougz/trueskill/blob/master/trueskill.py#L261

What do you use as BETA, EPSILON, GAMMA?
https://github.com/dougz/trueskill/blob/master/trueskill.py#L267

Aha! Thanks. I think I'm screwing up my betas. I'm using sublee's default of beta = INITIAL_SIGMA/2, while dougz used beta = 25.

Edit: I'm doing the epsilons and gammas differently too, but I think it's the betas that are causing real trouble.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2013, 05:23:28 am by ragingduckd »
Logged
Salvager Extension | Isotropish Leaderboard | Game Data | Log Search & other toys | Salvager Bug Reports

Salvager not working for me at all today. ... Please help! I can't go back to playing without it like an animal!

ragingduckd

  • Board Moderator
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1059
  • Respect: +3527
    • View Profile
Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #69 on: July 28, 2013, 05:21:08 am »
0

I'm pretty sure for iso initial sigma = 25/3 so the leaderboard value for a new player mu - 3*sigma is 25 ± 25. And the decay affects just the uncertainty parameter which comes into play with
Quote
γ = σ0 / 100 (applied daily)

Well, actually I don't understand this either. If σ0 is the starting sigma, a constant, then how can γ = σ0 / 100 be applied daily? Further, gamma is global, not player-specific.
Logged
Salvager Extension | Isotropish Leaderboard | Game Data | Log Search & other toys | Salvager Bug Reports

Salvager not working for me at all today. ... Please help! I can't go back to playing without it like an animal!

yed

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 620
  • Shuffle iT Username: yed
  • Respect: +571
    • View Profile
Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #70 on: July 28, 2013, 05:37:58 am »
0

I'm pretty sure for iso initial sigma = 25/3 so the leaderboard value for a new player mu - 3*sigma is 25 ± 25. And the decay affects just the uncertainty parameter which comes into play with
Quote
γ = σ0 / 100 (applied daily)

Well, actually I don't understand this either. If σ0 is the starting sigma, a constant, then how can γ = σ0 / 100 be applied daily? Further, gamma is global, not player-specific.
If I understand it correctly for each player new sigma is daily calculated like this:
Quote
sigma=sqrt(pl.skill[1] ** 2 + GAMMA ** 2)
(I think pl.skill[1] is old sigma.)
https://github.com/dougz/trueskill/blob/master/trueskill.py#L345
Logged

ragingduckd

  • Board Moderator
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1059
  • Respect: +3527
    • View Profile
Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #71 on: July 28, 2013, 06:00:51 am »
0

I'm pretty sure for iso initial sigma = 25/3 so the leaderboard value for a new player mu - 3*sigma is 25 ± 25. And the decay affects just the uncertainty parameter which comes into play with
Quote
γ = σ0 / 100 (applied daily)

Well, actually I don't understand this either. If σ0 is the starting sigma, a constant, then how can γ = σ0 / 100 be applied daily? Further, gamma is global, not player-specific.
If I understand it correctly for each player new sigma is daily calculated like this:
Quote
sigma=sqrt(pl.skill[1] ** 2 + GAMMA ** 2)
(I think pl.skill[1] is old sigma.)
https://github.com/dougz/trueskill/blob/master/trueskill.py#L345

Yes, that I follow. But the GAMMA in that equation is the same for all players in the game.

Actually, I think it's just constant over all games. It's possible that dougz was updating it for each matchup using isotropic code that isn't included in his trueskill package, but even then each player in that matchup would be using the same GAMMA regardless of their individual sigmas, so I still don't understand what γ = σ0 / 100 (applied daily) means.
Logged
Salvager Extension | Isotropish Leaderboard | Game Data | Log Search & other toys | Salvager Bug Reports

Salvager not working for me at all today. ... Please help! I can't go back to playing without it like an animal!

yed

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 620
  • Shuffle iT Username: yed
  • Respect: +571
    • View Profile
Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #72 on: July 28, 2013, 06:15:48 am »
0

I undersand it like
Quote
γ = σ0 / 100
corresponds to this code:
Quote
GAMMA = INITIAL_SIGMA / 100.0
https://github.com/dougz/trueskill/blob/master/trueskill.py#L307
And
Quote
(applied daily)
means apply it as here:
Quote
sigma=sqrt(pl.skill[1] ** 2 + GAMMA ** 2)
https://github.com/dougz/trueskill/blob/master/trueskill.py#L345

I don't understand it completely. And probably because of that I don't get why using same GAMMA regardless of their individual sigmas is a problem.
Logged

qmech

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1918
  • Shuffle iT Username: qmech
  • What year is it?
  • Respect: +2320
    • View Profile
Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #73 on: July 28, 2013, 06:28:19 am »
0

so I still don't understand what γ = σ0 / 100 (applied daily) means.

In the early days Iso would increase the variance after each game.  Since that put a hard floor on how low the variance could go, it was later changed to happen once a day.  So "applied daily" means that you only fudge the variance once a day, rather than recalculating the (constant) gamma daily.
Logged

jonts26

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2746
  • Shuffle iT Username: jonts
  • Respect: +3668
    • View Profile
Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #74 on: July 28, 2013, 10:08:42 am »
+1

Yes, that I follow. But the GAMMA in that equation is the same for all players in the game.

Actually, I think it's just constant over all games. It's possible that dougz was updating it for each matchup using isotropic code that isn't included in his trueskill package, but even then each player in that matchup would be using the same GAMMA regardless of their individual sigmas, so I still don't understand what γ = σ0 / 100 (applied daily) means.

Yed covered most of it but just to clarify, at the end of every day, the sigma parameter for each player is adjusted by the gamma parameter. Gamma is the same for every player, every day and is equal to σ0 / 100 or 0.08333...

I had thought that it was just added to the end of the day sigma, but it seems it's figured in using the equation sigma_new = sqrt(sigma_old^2 + gamma^2). Actually, that way makes more sense as it provides a diminishing returns on how fast the variance increases.
Logged
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 ... 13  All
 

Page created in 0.104 seconds with 21 queries.