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Author Topic: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)  (Read 72921 times)

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SCSN

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #50 on: July 22, 2013, 07:13:42 pm »
+4


Maybe the best answer to "which way to sort" is "who cares? Just click whichever column you like".

Good thing -Stef- dropped his hyphens, now I can at least outrank him via alphabetical sort.
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Kirian

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #51 on: July 22, 2013, 08:42:26 pm »
0

The other thing to consider is that if you are dumping data an HTML table, it's really easy to provide options to sort by various columns.  I used this sorttable Javascript library a lot in councilroom. 

Maybe the best answer to "which way to sort" is "who cares? Just click whichever column you like".

This.
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Kirian

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #52 on: July 22, 2013, 08:43:24 pm »
0

How do i find me? is there a  search engine for names? that would be awesome.

Ctrl-F doesn't work for you?
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #53 on: July 22, 2013, 08:54:32 pm »
0

How do i find me? is there a  search engine for names? that would be awesome.
If you're in windows, ctrl+f is your friend.

sudgy

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #54 on: July 22, 2013, 09:21:06 pm »
0

Woah, how am I nine levels behind Stef?
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

mail-mi

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #55 on: July 22, 2013, 11:13:30 pm »
0

How do i find me? is there a  search engine for names? that would be awesome.

Ctrl-F doesn't work for you?
{facepalm}
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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #56 on: July 22, 2013, 11:54:08 pm »
0

How do i find me? is there a  search engine for names? that would be awesome.

Ctrl-F doesn't work for you?
{facepalm}

It's all right, man, we all have those days.
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lespeutere

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #57 on: July 23, 2013, 07:47:55 am »
+1

Woah, how am I nine levels behind Stef?
You're saying "only 9" or "9, so many"?
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Awaclus

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #58 on: July 23, 2013, 08:24:22 am »
+3

Feature request: "Last updated on Tue, Jul 23 at 05:19 AM PDT (5 minutes ago)"
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sudgy

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #59 on: July 23, 2013, 02:13:33 pm »
0

Woah, how am I nine levels behind Stef?
You're saying "only 9" or "9, so many"?

"only 9".  On iso I was around level 13, and you know where he was...
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

mail-mi

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #60 on: July 27, 2013, 06:06:31 pm »
0

I was about level 1 on iso.

Now I'm 22. I feel so proud.
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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #61 on: July 27, 2013, 07:51:05 pm »
0

I was 3. Now I'm 24.
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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #62 on: July 27, 2013, 08:14:20 pm »
+2

I was 3. Now I'm 24.
I'm 18... wait, this wasn't the age thread?
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #63 on: July 27, 2013, 08:20:07 pm »
0

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ragingduckd

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #64 on: July 27, 2013, 08:53:15 pm »
0

I wrote to dougz asking for clarification on his TS implementation, but I'll ask the same questions here in case any of you know the answers. The quotes are from http://web.archive.org/web/20130116154350/http://dominion.isotropic.org/faq/

Quote
In a nutshell: skill is measured on a scale that goes from roughly 0 to 50 points. (Actually skill can be any number, but 99.8% of players should fall in the 050 range.) The skill range column is a 99.8% confidence interval the system is 99.8% sure your true skill lies somewhere in that range. New players are assigned a skill of "25 25", which is to say, we don't really have any idea what that person's skill is.

Does 25 +/- 25 mean that you're starting with mu=25, σ=25? If so, then 0-50 would be more like a 68% CI, right? The default for the other implementations I've seen is 25 +/- 8.66.  That is, σ=25/3.

Quote
The level column is the low end of your range, rounded down to an integer and clamped to the range [0, 50]. If we ignore the clamping, it is a conservative skill estimate in the sense that we are 99.9% confident that you are at least that skillful.

Did you eventually remove this on the upper end? I see a lot of people on your leaderboard who would be at large negative levels but are listed at 0. But I also see lespeutere and -Stef- over 50.

Quote
I've set β = 25, γ = σ0 / 100 (applied daily), and the draw probability at 5%.)

Empirically, I find more like a 1.75% draw rate. Was there any special reason for chooing 5%?

@Obi Wan Bonogi: You voted for isotropic's TS algorithm "without the decay," but dougz doesn't mention a decay in mu or a daily increase in σ. Can you clarify?
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jonts26

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #65 on: July 27, 2013, 08:59:39 pm »
+1

I'm pretty sure for iso initial sigma = 25/3 so the leaderboard value for a new player mu - 3*sigma is 25 25. And the decay affects just the uncertainty parameter which comes into play with
Quote
γ = σ0 / 100 (applied daily)
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ragingduckd

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #66 on: July 27, 2013, 09:09:31 pm »
0

I'm pretty sure for iso initial sigma = 25/3 so the leaderboard value for a new player mu - 3*sigma is 25 25. And the decay affects just the uncertainty parameter which comes into play with
Quote
γ = σ0 / 100 (applied daily)

The thing is, I'm using initial sigma=25/3 too but my final mu's and sigma's are both way smaller than isotropic's. I'm not sure what else I'm doing differently that could have such a large effect.
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yed

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #67 on: July 28, 2013, 03:19:59 am »
0

INITIAL_MU = 25.0
INITIAL_SIGMA = INITIAL_MU / 3.0
https://github.com/dougz/trueskill/blob/master/trueskill.py#L261

What do you use as BETA, EPSILON, GAMMA?
https://github.com/dougz/trueskill/blob/master/trueskill.py#L267
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ragingduckd

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #68 on: July 28, 2013, 04:46:23 am »
0

INITIAL_MU = 25.0
INITIAL_SIGMA = INITIAL_MU / 3.0
https://github.com/dougz/trueskill/blob/master/trueskill.py#L261

What do you use as BETA, EPSILON, GAMMA?
https://github.com/dougz/trueskill/blob/master/trueskill.py#L267

Aha! Thanks. I think I'm screwing up my betas. I'm using sublee's default of beta = INITIAL_SIGMA/2, while dougz used beta = 25.

Edit: I'm doing the epsilons and gammas differently too, but I think it's the betas that are causing real trouble.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2013, 05:23:28 am by ragingduckd »
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ragingduckd

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #69 on: July 28, 2013, 05:21:08 am »
0

I'm pretty sure for iso initial sigma = 25/3 so the leaderboard value for a new player mu - 3*sigma is 25 25. And the decay affects just the uncertainty parameter which comes into play with
Quote
γ = σ0 / 100 (applied daily)

Well, actually I don't understand this either. If σ0 is the starting sigma, a constant, then how can γ = σ0 / 100 be applied daily? Further, gamma is global, not player-specific.
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yed

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #70 on: July 28, 2013, 05:37:58 am »
0

I'm pretty sure for iso initial sigma = 25/3 so the leaderboard value for a new player mu - 3*sigma is 25 25. And the decay affects just the uncertainty parameter which comes into play with
Quote
γ = σ0 / 100 (applied daily)

Well, actually I don't understand this either. If σ0 is the starting sigma, a constant, then how can γ = σ0 / 100 be applied daily? Further, gamma is global, not player-specific.
If I understand it correctly for each player new sigma is daily calculated like this:
Quote
sigma=sqrt(pl.skill[1] ** 2 + GAMMA ** 2)
(I think pl.skill[1] is old sigma.)
https://github.com/dougz/trueskill/blob/master/trueskill.py#L345
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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #71 on: July 28, 2013, 06:00:51 am »
0

I'm pretty sure for iso initial sigma = 25/3 so the leaderboard value for a new player mu - 3*sigma is 25 25. And the decay affects just the uncertainty parameter which comes into play with
Quote
γ = σ0 / 100 (applied daily)

Well, actually I don't understand this either. If σ0 is the starting sigma, a constant, then how can γ = σ0 / 100 be applied daily? Further, gamma is global, not player-specific.
If I understand it correctly for each player new sigma is daily calculated like this:
Quote
sigma=sqrt(pl.skill[1] ** 2 + GAMMA ** 2)
(I think pl.skill[1] is old sigma.)
https://github.com/dougz/trueskill/blob/master/trueskill.py#L345

Yes, that I follow. But the GAMMA in that equation is the same for all players in the game.

Actually, I think it's just constant over all games. It's possible that dougz was updating it for each matchup using isotropic code that isn't included in his trueskill package, but even then each player in that matchup would be using the same GAMMA regardless of their individual sigmas, so I still don't understand what γ = σ0 / 100 (applied daily) means.
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yed

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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #72 on: July 28, 2013, 06:15:48 am »
0

I undersand it like
Quote
γ = σ0 / 100
corresponds to this code:
Quote
GAMMA = INITIAL_SIGMA / 100.0
https://github.com/dougz/trueskill/blob/master/trueskill.py#L307
And
Quote
(applied daily)
means apply it as here:
Quote
sigma=sqrt(pl.skill[1] ** 2 + GAMMA ** 2)
https://github.com/dougz/trueskill/blob/master/trueskill.py#L345

I don't understand it completely. And probably because of that I don't get why using same GAMMA regardless of their individual sigmas is a problem.
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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #73 on: July 28, 2013, 06:28:19 am »
0

so I still don't understand what γ = σ0 / 100 (applied daily) means.

In the early days Iso would increase the variance after each game.  Since that put a hard floor on how low the variance could go, it was later changed to happen once a day.  So "applied daily" means that you only fudge the variance once a day, rather than recalculating the (constant) gamma daily.
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Re: Isotropish Leaderboard (alternative to Goko Pro)
« Reply #74 on: July 28, 2013, 10:08:42 am »
+1

Yes, that I follow. But the GAMMA in that equation is the same for all players in the game.

Actually, I think it's just constant over all games. It's possible that dougz was updating it for each matchup using isotropic code that isn't included in his trueskill package, but even then each player in that matchup would be using the same GAMMA regardless of their individual sigmas, so I still don't understand what γ = σ0 / 100 (applied daily) means.

Yed covered most of it but just to clarify, at the end of every day, the sigma parameter for each player is adjusted by the gamma parameter. Gamma is the same for every player, every day and is equal to σ0 / 100 or 0.08333...

I had thought that it was just added to the end of the day sigma, but it seems it's figured in using the equation sigma_new = sqrt(sigma_old^2 + gamma^2). Actually, that way makes more sense as it provides a diminishing returns on how fast the variance increases.
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