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Author Topic: Why has innovation.isotropic neither died nor blossomed?  (Read 14628 times)

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AHoppy

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Re: Why has innovation.isotropic neither died nor blossomed?
« Reply #25 on: November 20, 2013, 04:39:17 am »
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I caved and moved to Goko, cursing myself ever since.

I feel like Gollum. I loathe Goko and still play on it to get my "fix".

Plus, Innovation just doesn't scratch my itch the same way Dominion does.
I know :( I hate it.  But I have not had access to my Dominion cards since August, so all I have at the moment is goko.  I can't wait to go home and not have to play on goko :P

ksasaki

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Re: Why has innovation.isotropic neither died nor blossomed?
« Reply #26 on: November 27, 2013, 12:50:33 pm »
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AHoppy: I would be willing to give strategy primers to people including yourself.  Echoes was a little hard for me to pick up too (we went back to base after playing like 10 games initially back before online, we only revisited it after they amended the rules). 

But a couple simple rules to consider in echoes:
- In general, try to draw the echoes card
- Look for splaying left cards early (code of laws and flute), also look for the "golden four" flute ruler chopsticks umbrella which have echo effects that are visible on a splay left.  Wheel / umbrella and chopsticks / domestication.  Perfume is a perfect card for tucking those useful echoes.
- teching ahead is fun and can cascade, but it is dangerous because you leave all the juicy age 1s for your opponent.  An early writing I would not recommend.   However, a turn 1 ruler I would say is a reasonable move, since you can hope for linguistics, watermill, horseshoes, lever.
- NEVER EVER open with an echoes card with bonus >1.  The danger of turn 1 candles into an age 3 is way too dangerous.

I wish the log was a little more "interactive" so it would be easier for me to annotate it, so I could maybe circle moves and try to explain my rationale behind it.  However, my strategy is definitely a "power and control" strategy, there are scoring strategies like an early chopsticks / pottery that actually work.  I'm just not very good at it.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2013, 12:51:35 pm by ksasaki »
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ksasaki

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Re: Why has innovation.isotropic neither died nor blossomed?
« Reply #27 on: November 27, 2013, 01:35:20 pm »
+1

Interestingly, I never got into dominion.  I remember playing it one evening at a friend's house, of course I got crushed (I believe it was a 4P game).  The whole deckbuilding theme is interesting to me, but I never did grasp the strategy like I did with innovation.  It was like magic, you needed some kind of ratio of "lands" to "enchantments" and "creatures" and I could never figure out what was the right balance.  I also feel like I tended to get hand screwed more often than not.  I think the other thing is I tend to do better in zero-sum games (innovation / chess), and this whole 3-5 player aspect just throws me off.  Maybe if I played more 2P dominion I would like it more, but apparently according to BGG it is best with 3....
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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: Why has innovation.isotropic neither died nor blossomed?
« Reply #28 on: November 27, 2013, 03:56:03 pm »
+2

If you took a poll here the results would be very different. Almost all high level Dominion is played 2 player.
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AHoppy

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Re: Why has innovation.isotropic neither died nor blossomed?
« Reply #29 on: November 27, 2013, 05:31:41 pm »
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AHoppy: I would be willing to give strategy primers to people including yourself.  Echoes was a little hard for me to pick up too (we went back to base after playing like 10 games initially back before online, we only revisited it after they amended the rules). 

But a couple simple rules to consider in echoes:
- In general, try to draw the echoes card
- Look for splaying left cards early (code of laws and flute), also look for the "golden four" flute ruler chopsticks umbrella which have echo effects that are visible on a splay left.  Wheel / umbrella and chopsticks / domestication.  Perfume is a perfect card for tucking those useful echoes.
- teching ahead is fun and can cascade, but it is dangerous because you leave all the juicy age 1s for your opponent.  An early writing I would not recommend.   However, a turn 1 ruler I would say is a reasonable move, since you can hope for linguistics, watermill, horseshoes, lever.
- NEVER EVER open with an echoes card with bonus >1.  The danger of turn 1 candles into an age 3 is way too dangerous.

I wish the log was a little more "interactive" so it would be easier for me to annotate it, so I could maybe circle moves and try to explain my rationale behind it.  However, my strategy is definitely a "power and control" strategy, there are scoring strategies like an early chopsticks / pottery that actually work.  I'm just not very good at it.
I would love some strategy lessons :P   I need to master base a little more first though...  Or do I? I don't know...  But right now is not the best time.  Maybe when I'm home for Christmas, that would be fun

AHoppy

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Re: Why has innovation.isotropic neither died nor blossomed?
« Reply #30 on: December 02, 2013, 01:36:16 pm »
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So i just played my first game of figures, no echoes.  And I really enjoyed it (winning may have factored in...).  I really think that figures "fixes" base  innovation.  I'm not saying base is broken, but I feel like it does fix the things that can make base innovation feel like a runaway game.  What I mean, is sometimes in innovation it feels like the player who is winning keeps winning.  Maybe that's because I'm not very good at the game, but sometimes I feel like that happens.  It doesn't have negative utility nearly as much as Dominion.  You do give up an action to claim an achievement, but that's not really negative utility because at the same time you are denying that achievement from your opponent.  Base innovation fixes this by offering 105 paths to victory.  But sometimes you just don't get those draws that you need to foil the opponent's plans/further your own.  I feel like Figures fixes this by allowing your opponent to draw a figure (which I feel like are very powerful) giving them some compensation for you jumping ahead.  Also, increasing the benefit from sharing gives you a boost when your opponent is ahead in icons, again more negative utility.  In addition, it doesn't add overly complicated things, like echoes did.  Although, I guess it can create some very complicated interactions with karmas and echoes and such, but because there are far fewer expansion cards in play.  Overall, I enjoyed that one game of Figures than all the games of echoes I have played, because I felt like I knew what I was doing more.  I  may have to get figures, just from that one game.

ipofanes

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Re: Why has innovation.isotropic neither died nor blossomed?
« Reply #31 on: December 02, 2013, 03:30:18 pm »
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Quote
In addition, it doesn't add overly complicated things, like echoes did.

Well it does utilize most of the novel rules in Echoes (echo stack, forecast, bonuses ...) so my feeling with figures only is that it is a bit inefficient with its rules. A large part of the domain opened up by the rules is taken by Echoes, and leaving this part out feels weird and makes the game harder to explain. I agree that it works better than Echoes.
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AHoppy

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Re: Why has innovation.isotropic neither died nor blossomed?
« Reply #32 on: December 02, 2013, 04:05:30 pm »
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True, it does have most of the echoes things, but it doesn't feel as prevalent because you play far fewer figures than echoes.  And the draw rules are much simpler.  What do you mean that it "is a bit inefficient with its rules"?

popsofctown

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Re: Why has innovation.isotropic neither died nor blossomed?
« Reply #33 on: December 03, 2013, 12:31:18 am »
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So i just played my first game of figures, no echoes.  And I really enjoyed it (winning may have factored in...).  I really think that figures "fixes" base  innovation.  I'm not saying base is broken, but I feel like it does fix the things that can make base innovation feel like a runaway game.  What I mean, is sometimes in innovation it feels like the player who is winning keeps winning.  Maybe that's because I'm not very good at the game, but sometimes I feel like that happens.  It doesn't have negative utility nearly as much as Dominion.  You do give up an action to claim an achievement, but that's not really negative utility because at the same time you are denying that achievement from your opponent.  Base innovation fixes this by offering 105 paths to victory.  But sometimes you just don't get those draws that you need to foil the opponent's plans/further your own.  I feel like Figures fixes this by allowing your opponent to draw a figure (which I feel like are very powerful) giving them some compensation for you jumping ahead.  Also, increasing the benefit from sharing gives you a boost when your opponent is ahead in icons, again more negative utility.  In addition, it doesn't add overly complicated things, like echoes did.  Although, I guess it can create some very complicated interactions with karmas and echoes and such, but because there are far fewer expansion cards in play.  Overall, I enjoyed that one game of Figures than all the games of echoes I have played, because I felt like I knew what I was doing more.  I  may have to get figures, just from that one game.
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9048.0
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AHoppy

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Re: Why has innovation.isotropic neither died nor blossomed?
« Reply #34 on: December 03, 2013, 03:34:10 am »
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So i just played my first game of figures, no echoes.  And I really enjoyed it (winning may have factored in...).  I really think that figures "fixes" base  innovation.  I'm not saying base is broken, but I feel like it does fix the things that can make base innovation feel like a runaway game.  What I mean, is sometimes in innovation it feels like the player who is winning keeps winning.  Maybe that's because I'm not very good at the game, but sometimes I feel like that happens.  It doesn't have negative utility nearly as much as Dominion.  You do give up an action to claim an achievement, but that's not really negative utility because at the same time you are denying that achievement from your opponent.  Base innovation fixes this by offering 105 paths to victory.  But sometimes you just don't get those draws that you need to foil the opponent's plans/further your own.  I feel like Figures fixes this by allowing your opponent to draw a figure (which I feel like are very powerful) giving them some compensation for you jumping ahead.  Also, increasing the benefit from sharing gives you a boost when your opponent is ahead in icons, again more negative utility.  In addition, it doesn't add overly complicated things, like echoes did.  Although, I guess it can create some very complicated interactions with karmas and echoes and such, but because there are far fewer expansion cards in play.  Overall, I enjoyed that one game of Figures than all the games of echoes I have played, because I felt like I knew what I was doing more.  I  may have to get figures, just from that one game.
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9048.0
Yeah, while I was writing it I figured someone had probably written an article like that when figures came out.  So I agree with you pops!

ipofanes

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Re: Why has innovation.isotropic neither died nor blossomed?
« Reply #35 on: December 03, 2013, 03:35:14 am »
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What do you mean that it "is a bit inefficient with its rules"?
Uses a lot of rules without employing them often. Some of them may even never appear throughout the whole game. It is reminiscient of classic Ameritrash, where some rules are introduced for the sake of flavour/theme.

The expansions are not orthogonal. One can use Figures w/o Echoes,  may even for the better of the game. But you would have to introduce Echoes before you want to introduce Figures, which is a bit of a shame. (To illustrate where I am coming from: My wife lost interest in the whole game after the first couple of Echo matches, and we never came around to play Figures.)
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AHoppy

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Re: Why has innovation.isotropic neither died nor blossomed?
« Reply #36 on: December 03, 2013, 03:38:48 am »
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Ah gotcha.  Yeah, that makes sense... It would be much harder to teach without knowledge of echoes, especially since the echoes rules wouldn't always come up. 

brokoli

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Re: Why has innovation.isotropic neither died nor blossomed?
« Reply #37 on: December 03, 2013, 05:45:23 am »
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I love Innovation. I think it's a great game with great mechanics. Echoes is fantastic, II love the echoes effect when you splay, it makes the game very creative and creativity is one of the things that makes me love Dominion.
But the game is seriously unbalanced. Almanac and Industrialisation are broken. Echoes cards are usually too strong compared to base cards and thus you almost ignore the base cards in echoes games, by just keeping a base card in hand and using the echoes cards. So the drawing rule with echoes is weird and not very efficient.

I like figures, but I don't play with it because it add so many new weird rules, new complicated achievements and too much unpredictability that was not needed (base and echoes are already very unpredictables).

There should be new "fixed" edition of Innovation, really. With simpler rules, balanced cards (Feodalism, Industrialization, Almanac are the most important), fewer special achievements (or the same number but using only 5 of them in each game)  Especially online, for the most experienced players.
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ipofanes

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Re: Why has innovation.isotropic neither died nor blossomed?
« Reply #38 on: December 03, 2013, 06:07:46 am »
0

Echoes cards are usually too strong compared to base cards and thus you almost ignore the base cards in echoes games, by just keeping a base card in hand and using the echoes cards. So the drawing rule with echoes is weird and not very efficient.
I think it takes a bit off effort to draw echoes on a regular base. Go and draw three cards. Easy, Smithy, i mean Fermenting or Paper. Now go and draw three Echoes.

Precisely because of that it is justified that Echoes are better than their base counterparts.

Almanac needs fixing as it is so self-sufficient. Completely ignoring the tech tree, it shoves around a couple of cards where they can't be touched by my opponents (forecast), scores a lot and inevitably reaches the draw-beyond-10 condition.

Industrialization would less of an Echoes juggernaut with the rewording "Draw floor(factories/2) cards. Tuck them."
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popsofctown

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Re: Why has innovation.isotropic neither died nor blossomed?
« Reply #39 on: December 03, 2013, 06:07:05 pm »
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I love Innovation. I think it's a great game with great mechanics. Echoes is fantastic, II love the echoes effect when you splay, it makes the game very creative and creativity is one of the things that makes me love Dominion.
But the game is seriously unbalanced. Almanac and Industrialisation are broken. Echoes cards are usually too strong compared to base cards and thus you almost ignore the base cards in echoes games, by just keeping a base card in hand and using the echoes cards. So the drawing rule with echoes is weird and not very efficient.

I like figures, but I don't play with it because it add so many new weird rules, new complicated achievements and too much unpredictability that was not needed (base and echoes are already very unpredictables).

There should be new "fixed" edition of Innovation, really. With simpler rules, balanced cards (Feodalism, Industrialization, Almanac are the most important), fewer special achievements (or the same number but using only 5 of them in each game)  Especially online, for the most experienced players.

The alpha versions of no place like home have made me kind of pessimistic about Carl's direction with things.  I've given up hoping about things like this.
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ipofanes

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Re: Why has innovation.isotropic neither died nor blossomed?
« Reply #40 on: December 04, 2013, 03:03:50 am »
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There should be new "fixed" edition of Innovation, really. With simpler rules, balanced cards (Feodalism, Industrialization, Almanac are the most important), fewer special achievements (or the same number but using only 5 of them in each game)  Especially online, for the most experienced players.

The alpha versions of no place like home have made me kind of pessimistic about Carl's direction with things.  I've given up hoping about things like this.

The alpha version wasn't that bad a direction. The re-worked special achievements in No Place took the wrong direction. Too many benefits for actions you were going to perform anyway allow players to freeload and completely ignore regular achievements. I don't mind the endorse mechanism too much, and I disagree about the lack of options it creates.
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dondon151

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Re: Why has innovation.isotropic neither died nor blossomed?
« Reply #41 on: December 04, 2013, 07:38:05 pm »
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I think a good idea would just be to have 5 random achievements available from all of the sets used in a game.
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ipofanes

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Re: Why has innovation.isotropic neither died nor blossomed?
« Reply #42 on: December 05, 2013, 03:11:44 am »
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I think a good idea would just be to have 5 random achievements available from all of the sets used in a game.

The basic idea would be something I sympathise with (discourage strategies that ignore standard achievements).

There are a couple of issues I have. First, this approach does not discourage these strategies, it shuts them down. Would Dominion be a better game if threepiling approaches were nerfed?  Many paths to victory is good, what's bothersome is the en passant manner some of these achievements are claimed (Invoke Industrialization, meld Dublin, BAM, five achievements). Also, with all the Expansions, it has become very hard to rely on standard achievements only. And I think the board-consuming, consistent scoring strategies of Steam Engine and Coal require skill and should not be discouraged.
 
All Karmas involving "You may issue a XXX Decree" where XXX is not in play would be seriously curtailed.

Also, I don't think I would like to have Monument and Supremacy in base. This would make a Masonry-based opening too powerful for my taste.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2013, 03:33:46 am by ipofanes »
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ksasaki

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Re: Why has innovation.isotropic neither died nor blossomed?
« Reply #43 on: January 10, 2014, 05:00:35 pm »
+1

I agree that industrialization in echoes+ would be a lot weaker if you drew X cards first, then tucked them.  The ability to tuck multiple echoes allows one to collect all the special achievements from both base AND echoes in short order (in addition to drawing those key 6 cities which start splaying things right / flag achievements in cities).  I felt that industrialization wasn't actually that strong in base, it was stuff like coal and canning.

Measurement is kinda the same idea; with base alone, it is a pretty good but not game-breaking card, simply because the stacks don't get that large in base.  But add even echoes and I felt like measurement was already kinda OP.

I felt like figures was a good expansion in the sense of balance (boy am I glad that figures was implemented online though, keeping track of all the figures exceptions in real life is a nightmare), and had less of a "runaway leader" phenomenon.

Cities, however, says here, have DOUBLE the effect of the ridiculous card.  So now the runaway leader is running twice as fast...

It is admittedly difficult to seamlessly integrate a new expansion while overlooking some OP possibilities from the base set.  But almanac came in OP, and now with endorsements, it is majorly OP.  Even figures is useful to almanac, because shared almanac is a figure share, so you can spam it even shared without having to rid your hand of the bonus echoes draw from before.

I also liked the initial city cards as non-achievements, and so your opponent had to be careful about putting cities out.  Now it's just a race to who can reach the ages of the special achievements  first (and it's usually the runaway leader....)
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ipofanes

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Re: Why has innovation.isotropic neither died nor blossomed?
« Reply #44 on: September 19, 2014, 10:30:30 am »
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I feel like the lobby is slowly withering. Even after the summer break I find myself being the only one there more often than not.
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qdread

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Re: Why has innovation.isotropic neither died nor blossomed?
« Reply #45 on: September 19, 2014, 11:53:12 am »
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Yeah, it's pretty dismal sometimes to want to play a quick game and no one is there. I see that there is a French site as well, just from looking at it, it looks pretty active, and has both Base and Echoes implemented. Anyone know anything about it? polpoul.com
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ehunt

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Re: Why has innovation.isotropic neither died nor blossomed?
« Reply #46 on: September 23, 2014, 11:13:23 am »
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Yeah, it's pretty dismal sometimes to want to play a quick game and no one is there. I see that there is a French site as well, just from looking at it, it looks pretty active, and has both Base and Echoes implemented. Anyone know anything about it? polpoul.com

Interesting... when I play on isotropic evening (european time) I always get a game. Daytime I have to wait.
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Hydralisk

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Re: Why has innovation.isotropic neither died nor blossomed?
« Reply #47 on: September 24, 2014, 09:02:05 am »
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On my feel - there is alwayes someone but only for base  :( Sadly, to play with exps I have to wait for several minutes
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ipofanes

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Re: Why has innovation.isotropic neither died nor blossomed?
« Reply #48 on: September 25, 2014, 03:33:46 am »
+2

Hopefully it will stay around for a while, if only to be able to troll Dominion related threads with side remarks like "after playing some games on Isotropic yesterday ...".
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jsh357

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Re: Why has innovation.isotropic neither died nor blossomed?
« Reply #49 on: September 25, 2014, 10:35:25 am »
+6

Hopefully it will stay around for a while, if only to be able to troll Dominion related threads with side remarks like "after playing some games on Isotropic yesterday ...".
What do you mean?  Is isotropic going down or something?
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