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Author Topic: Atomic Wishing Well  (Read 8978 times)

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dghunter79

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Atomic Wishing Well
« on: July 14, 2013, 09:31:33 pm »
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Imagine this card: Atomic Wishing Well.

1. Name a card.
2. Reveal the top card of your deck. If it's the named card, put it into your hand and return to step 1.

In other words, every time you correctly name the card on top of your deck, you get to make another wish.

The challenge: design a kingdom, excluding King's Court, Throne Room, and Procession.  The goal is to engineer a scenario in which you can guarantee the longest string of correct wishes, all of which are differently named cards.

Assume that you get one Atomic Wishing Well, it starts in your deck, and isn't a kingdom card.

scott_pilgrim

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Re: Atomic Wishing Well
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2013, 10:12:50 pm »
+1

1. Buy all the cards from the Black Market.
2. Overpay for Herald by like $200.  Remember the order of all the cards.
3. Play Atomic Wishing Well and guess everything correctly.

Are we supposed to find the fastest way to do this?  Or is the challenge supposed to be figuring out how to remember all those cards?
« Last Edit: July 14, 2013, 10:15:14 pm by scott_pilgrim »
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SirPeebles

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Re: Atomic Wishing Well
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2013, 10:28:50 pm »
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Not much to add, except make sure that Knights are in the kingdom.  You could afford the Herald's overpayment either by saving up Coin tokens or by stuffing your cards onto the Native Village mat and then drawing them all and discard with Secret Chamber.  The latter has the advantage of putting your deck into the discard as well.
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dghunter79

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Re: Atomic Wishing Well
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2013, 01:41:17 am »
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1. Buy all the cards from the Black Market.
2. Overpay for Herald by like $200.  Remember the order of all the cards.
3. Play Atomic Wishing Well and guess everything correctly.

Are we supposed to find the fastest way to do this?  Or is the challenge supposed to be figuring out how to remember all those cards?

Ah.  Let's say, without Herald, then.

RTT

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Re: Atomic Wishing Well
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2013, 04:10:36 am »
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assuming you have enough actions ...
your hand is 11 cards (1 Atomic wishing well and 10 different named)
your draw pile is 7 cards which you all know and one of them is Stash

play navigator put 5 cards back (no Stash in them)
play 10* scavenger
play 10* count and put a cards from you hand on top of your deck

remember all the cards you put on top

play atomic WW and draw 27 cards (either the bottom or the second bottom card is stash and the other one is the card navigator didnts show.)

i´m pretty sure more than 27 is possible
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achmed_sender

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Re: Atomic Wishing Well
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2013, 04:23:04 am »
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assuming you have enough actions ...
your hand is 11 cards (1 Atomic wishing well and 10 different named)
your draw pile is 7 cards which you all know and one of them is Stash

play navigator put 5 cards back (no Stash in them)
play 10* scavenger
play 10* count and put a cards from you hand on top of your deck

remember all the cards you put on top

play atomic WW and draw 27 cards (either the bottom or the second bottom card is stash and the other one is the card navigator didnts show.)

i´m pretty sure more than 27 is possible

You can do 37 by putting in 10 Mandarins. And it mabe be possible to increase that if you play Courtyards at the Beginning of all these Top-Deck-Dards, then Discard some cards with Vault/Storeroom and do what RTT described. Not sure if it works properly, but you should get 47 42 (Navigator-thingies doesn't work this way, so 5 less) then, plus 1 which you put in your discard with Oasis, so 43.

EDIT: Courtyard dosn't work of course. Without Courtyard, it should be possible at least 40: 27 (from RTT) +10 Mandarins + 1 discarded + 2 from opponents ghost ship = 40
« Last Edit: July 15, 2013, 05:18:18 am by achmed_sender »
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Warfreak2

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Re: Atomic Wishing Well
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2013, 04:27:47 am »
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If you put back two to your opponent's Ghost Ship, how are you going to have a hand full of Scavengers, Counts and Mandarins?
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dondon151

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Re: Atomic Wishing Well
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2013, 04:31:42 am »
+2

You can do 37 by putting in 10 Mandarins.

The OP specifies differently named cards.

I'm pretty sure that with enough buys and sufficient cost reduction, Haggler + Royal Seal or Watchtower can set up all of the cards in your draw deck and then you just need to Scheme AWW with 4 other cards (Scheme, Herbalist, Alchemist, etc.) for your next hand.
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achmed_sender

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Re: Atomic Wishing Well
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2013, 05:13:19 am »
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You can do 37 by putting in 10 Mandarins.

The OP specifies differently named cards.

I think you misunderstood me, you put 10 differently named cards at the top of the deck (with the Mandarins). The wished cards must be differently, not the cards which put them on the deck.


If you put back two to your opponent's Ghost Ship, how are you going to have a hand full of Scavengers, Counts and Mandarins?

There are Gouverneurs, Labs, HPs, Wharves and Caravans played last turn,...and then played your Madmen, then you should have enough cards
« Last Edit: July 15, 2013, 05:16:24 am by achmed_sender »
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RTT

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Re: Atomic Wishing Well
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2013, 05:18:54 am »
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Quote
There are Gouverneurs, Labs, HPs, Wharves and Caravans played last turn,...and then played your Madmen, then you should have enough cards

but then you draw the 2 cards from ghost ship right away so that does not work
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RTT

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Re: Atomic Wishing Well
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2013, 05:26:03 am »
+4

your opponent played 10 gouvaneurs 10 councilrooms and 10 soothsayers letting you draw up to 35 cards
then he plays outpost and plays 10 gov and 10 CR again. then he plays gostship letting you put back 52 cards.
your remaining cards are AtomicWW count and NativVillage on you native village mat are 9NV 1 crossroad 1 squire(just for the actions) and 10 scavengers
your discard pile is 10 + cards.

so you can draw 63 cards well last card is a stash so 64
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Warfreak2

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Re: Atomic Wishing Well
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2013, 06:58:28 am »
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Why didn't the game end on piles? Also, you listed 10 different cards, and you own all of the villages, how did your opponent play all of those actions?
« Last Edit: July 15, 2013, 06:59:41 am by Warfreak2 »
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RTT

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Re: Atomic Wishing Well
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2013, 07:12:11 am »
+1

Why didn't the game end on piles? Also, you listed 10 different cards, and you own all of the villages, how did your opponent play all of those actions?

because there is a new setup rule on AtomicWW that a game can only end via the province pile running out and there are 2 additional kindom piles in the kingdom ;)
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achmed_sender

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Re: Atomic Wishing Well
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2013, 07:19:38 am »
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.
Quote
There are Gouverneurs, Labs, HPs, Wharves and Caravans played last turn,...and then played your Madmen, then you should have enough cards

but then you draw the 2 cards from ghost ship right away so that does not work

I forgot about that, thanks

your opponent played 10 gouvaneurs 10 councilrooms and 10 soothsayers letting you draw up to 35 cards
then he plays outpost and plays 10 gov and 10 CR again. then he plays gostship letting you put back 52 cards.
your remaining cards are AtomicWW count and NativVillage on you native village mat are 9NV 1 crossroad 1 squire(just for the actions) and 10 scavengers
your discard pile is 10 + cards.

so you can draw 63 cards well last card is a stash so 64

Trashing your 10 Cultists by your opponents 10 Bishops increases it to 84, I suppose
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Warfreak2

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Re: Atomic Wishing Well
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2013, 08:11:37 am »
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Better have the Cultists trashed from your deck by some attack, rather than from your hand to a Bishop.

You can also have a Fortress Swindled into a Nomad Camp, for an extra two. Alternatively, Rabble just before the Ghost Ship for an extra three, plus one for the Fortress. Actually, you could draw ten Fortresses to hand, and then discard them to your opponent's Vaults, converting them to five uniques.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2013, 08:18:05 am by Warfreak2 »
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Atomic Wishing Well
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2013, 02:19:59 pm »
+1

Is there a reason we're not having the opponent KC his CR's/Governors/Soothsayers?
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RTT

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Re: Atomic Wishing Well
« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2013, 03:10:13 pm »
+1

Is there a reason we're not having the opponent KC his CR's/Governors/Soothsayers?
well soothsayer only lets you draw 10 cards (in 2 player)
then the first post frobids throne KC and procession
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Atomic Wishing Well
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2013, 04:43:45 pm »
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Is there a reason we're not having the opponent KC his CR's/Governors/Soothsayers?
well soothsayer only lets you draw 10 cards (in 2 player)
then the first post frobids throne KC and procession
Oh...well that's a pretty good reason.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Atomic Wishing Well
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2013, 04:44:31 pm »
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In a three player game of Alice, Bob, and Charles in that order.  Alice plays Outpost, then 9 Possessions, then 9 Possession again.  Alice then compels Bob play 9 Soothsayers, 9 Governors (for cards), and 9 Council Rooms each of the 18 turns, and Bob chooses to do so again on his real turn.  This gives Charles a hand of 5+19*(9+9+9) = 518 cards in hand.  It could be one of each differently named card in the game.  Then Bob plays Ghost Ship.

Edit:  Fixed errors, and removed King's Court.

Edit 2:  OK, there aren't enough Curses for all of those Soothsayers to kick in.  Firstly, they aren't even needed.  But for completion, you can get a lot in a six player game if you have everyone but Charles use Moat/Lighthouse/Trader to block Curses.

Edit 3:  You could also get the number of cards in Charles' hand higher by letting Alice and Bob have all 10 of each, and then play Masquerades to move a copy of each over to Charles' hand.

Edit 4:  Oh yeah, and as other have pointed out,  Charles can trash Cultist/Rats/Overgrown Estates/Fortresses to Bishops, Saboteurs, and Swindlers.  Masquerades can then be used to swap Fortresses for uniquely named cards.  But man, I'm already way past the number of uniquely named published cards.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2013, 05:00:04 pm by SirPeebles »
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dghunter79

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Re: Atomic Wishing Well
« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2013, 05:08:50 pm »
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How about Solitaire, then.

And also, let's stipulate one forced move: before any other actions are played, you must us University to gain an Inn.

SirPeebles

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Re: Atomic Wishing Well
« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2013, 05:12:45 pm »
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You can do 37 by putting in 10 Mandarins.

The OP specifies differently named cards.

I'm pretty sure that with enough buys and sufficient cost reduction, Haggler + Royal Seal or Watchtower can set up all of the cards in your draw deck and then you just need to Scheme AWW with 4 other cards (Scheme, Herbalist, Alchemist, etc.) for your next hand.

You wouldn't be able to empty the Black Market deck.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Atomic Wishing Well
« Reply #21 on: July 15, 2013, 06:02:33 pm »
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As a potential upper bound:

*have exactly 17 known, distinct cards in your draw pile, including a Stash, and all from the Black Market deck (or Shelters).

*play University, gain the Inn.  Shuffle, placing the Stash 7th from the top.

*play Navigator, looking at the top 5 cards and returning them.

*play 10 Pearl Divers, bringing all 10 cards to the top.  This leaves Stash at the bottom, and the card just above it we know by process of elimination.

*gain and topdeck (with Watchtower) 43 unique cards (10 knights, 9 other kingdom cards, 1 bane, 4 base victories, 5 base treasures, 1 Curse, 5 Ruins, 5 Prizes, 1 Spoils, 1 Mercenary, 1 Madman)



*play 10 Black Markets and 10 BoM as Black Market to gain and topdeck 20 unique cards

*topdeck 10 cards with Count

*topdeck 10 cards with Mandarin

*topdeck 10 cards with Courtyard (topdeck 3 nonuniques by gaining and topdecking with Watchtower, then play Courtyard to draw them and put back a unique.  Repeat)

Total:  17+43+10+20+30 = 120 differently named cards.


Edit:  10 more from Scavenger.  However, since I'm using these full stacks of 10, I cannot include as topdecked: Pearl Diver, Black Market, Band of Misfits, Courtyard, Mandarin, Count, Scavenger.  So that's -7 cards.  Thus my revised upper bound is 123.

Edit:  10-1 more from Graverobber.  Total: 132

Kingdom: 
Black Market, Pearl Diver(bane), Band of Misfits, Courtyard, Mandarin
Count, Scavenger, Inn, Tournament, Graverobber, Knights

Edit:  Oh, 16 more by playing one of each kingdom treasure (purchased ahead of time from the Black Market deck.  doesn't include Diadem, Spoils, or Stash) before gaining a Mandarin from the Supply.

Total:  148.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2013, 06:38:16 pm by SirPeebles »
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RTT

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Re: Atomic Wishing Well
« Reply #22 on: July 16, 2013, 02:17:48 am »
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Quote
*play 10 Pearl Divers, bringing all 10 cards to the top.  This leaves Stash at the bottom, and the card just above it we know by process of elimination.
I though about pear diver but ever pearldiver draws the card a previous pearl diver had put on top of the deck.
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Warfreak2

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Re: Atomic Wishing Well
« Reply #23 on: July 16, 2013, 04:10:04 am »
+1

Multi-Possession is more efficient if there are more players, each possessing the next, playing multiple Possessions per turn.

Player A plays Possession, forcing Player B to play two Possessions, and Player B also does so on his own turn. Player C now gets 5 turns, 4 of which are possessed, in each of which he can play two Possessions, giving Player D 11 turns in a row (10 of which are possessed). Player D plays two Possessions 11 times, giving player E 23 turns in a row. Player E plays three Possessions 23 times, giving player F 70 turns in a row.

The formula for this is ((A+1)*B + 1)*C + 1)* ... where A,B,C... are the number of Possessions each of the players have, A+B+C+... <= 10. This is approximately exponential, so we want to distribute a number of Possessions close to e=2.718 to each of as many players as possible, with any smaller numbers at the beginning, and bigger numbers at the end. I believe the solution above is optimal.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2013, 04:19:06 am by Warfreak2 »
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Re: Atomic Wishing Well
« Reply #24 on: July 16, 2013, 04:15:36 am »
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Kingdom: 
Black Market, Pearl Diver(bane), Band of Misfits, Courtyard, Mandarin
Count, Scavenger, Inn, Tournament, Graverobber, Knights

Too bad that theres no Atomic Wishing Well now :(
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