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Author Topic: $2 copper attack  (Read 2741 times)

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brokoli

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$2 copper attack
« on: July 14, 2013, 12:07:34 pm »
0

What about that :

Action - Attack - $2
+1 card
+$1
Each other player gains a copper.
Each other player may trash a card from his hand.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2013, 02:25:25 pm by brokoli »
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Watno

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Re: $2 copper attack
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2013, 12:22:20 pm »
+1

Fun Fact: If you moat his, you are not allowed to trash.
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eHalcyon

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Re: $2 copper attack
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2013, 01:05:22 pm »
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You can't moat because it doesn't have an attack type.   ;)

More seriously, Donald X had said often that unfettered copper junking doesn't work due to scaling issues with number of players.
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Warfreak2

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Re: $2 copper attack
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2013, 01:07:28 pm »
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Add a line: "In games using this, when you trash a Copper, return it to the supply."
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LastFootnote

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Re: $2 copper attack
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2013, 01:08:22 pm »
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You can hand out stuff besides Curses. Estates are pretty bad. Copper isn't so hot. But handing out that kind of thing has issues. The Copper pile doesn't have a definite size, and varies with the number of players in a poor way. There are not very many Estates. You can do a few Witches that use cards like this, but most Witches cannot.
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achmed_sender

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Re: $2 copper attack
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2013, 01:27:30 pm »
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Add a line: "In games using this, when you trash a Copper, return it to the supply."

Poor Forager
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Warfreak2

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Re: $2 copper attack
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2013, 01:54:11 pm »
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Poor Forager
Baron sucks about like that in games with Shelters. I had considered that interaction and thought it wasn't problematic, at least not enough to add an "if there is another Copper in the trash" clause.
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blueblimp

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Re: $2 copper attack
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2013, 02:06:19 pm »
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In 2p, functionally the attack is often Cutpurse, as if you gain a copper and trash one from hand, that's mostly the same as discarding one from hand. It's weaker sometimes: early, when Estates/Shelthers get trashed; in games with other junking, where Curses/Ruins get trashed; in alt VP, where opponents will happily take the copper; late, when gaining a copper isn't too damaging.

In 3p/4p, the copper spam would be pretty annoying.

It's a clever way to get around the copper attack problem, but it doesn't seem different enough from Cutpurse to be interesting.
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blueblimp

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Re: $2 copper attack
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2013, 02:07:31 pm »
+1

Add a line: "In games using this, when you trash a Copper, return it to the supply."
Or change the card text to "Each other player may return a card from his hand to the supply."
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Warfreak2

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Re: $2 copper attack
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2013, 02:17:07 pm »
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That would work for this card, but other Copper-junking attacks could work in different ways, and this clause could fix them.
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eHalcyon

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Re: $2 copper attack
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2013, 02:24:16 pm »
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I think the problem is that there are usually too many Coppers compared to Curses. Returning them to the supply would make it worse. Never ending streams of junk!
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SirPeebles

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Re: $2 copper attack
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2013, 02:27:14 pm »
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I think that the optional trashing makes this a "fettered" Copper attack.  As has been mentioned, this effectively becomes Cutpurse before long.  In fact, in the early game it helps your opponent more often than it harms them (exchanging Estate for Copper).

I see no reason to return Coppers to the Supply.  I doubt that even six player games will empty Copper pile so often, and when they do, man, that game needs the Copper pile to be exhausted.
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brokoli

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Re: $2 copper attack
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2013, 02:34:16 pm »
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You can't moat because it doesn't have an attack type.   ;)
it was an oversight. I think it's better with the attack type.

Quote
More seriously, Donald X had said often that unfettered copper junking doesn't work due to scaling issues with number of players.
I don't really mind if it doesn't work for more than 2 players. And what about Mountebank then ?

The idea is to make a copper-junking attack that is weak enough so it does't dominates the board and doesn't turn the game into a slog.
And if I remember correctly, there is no $2 attack yet, so I wanted to try that.
I think it's enough different from cutpurse, because :
- Trashing is optionnal (in Slog or gardens games you want the copper), and at the end of the game, you probably want to keep the copper.
- You can trash a curse, or something else. You are not forced to trash a copper.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2013, 02:35:37 pm by brokoli »
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DrFlux

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Re: $2 copper attack
« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2013, 02:37:30 pm »
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What about copper junking with this clause:
- each other player gains a copper, or reveals a hand with 3 or more copper (would be weak early, I know)
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SirPeebles

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Re: $2 copper attack
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2013, 02:38:34 pm »
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On second thought, this really is a lot more painful than Cutpurse.  Cutpurse is a strong attack when your deck relies on Copper because it is cumulative.  The usual defense is to stop relying on Copper!  Ideally you'd trash away the Copper, but even in the absence of trashing, you will rather naturally buy non-Copper cards over the course of the game, and become less and less likely to have a hand relying on Copper.

With this Copper attack, however, you aren't able to escape so easily.  Cutpurse is ineffectual once you have no Copper remaining in your hand, but this attack stuffs additional Copper into your deck in that case, making it even less likely that your future hands will be free of Copper.  In a four player game, this could become a real mess.
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Warfreak2

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Re: $2 copper attack
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2013, 02:45:00 pm »
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In four player games the Copper pile would often get emptied. Remember that the Copper pile is actually smaller by 7 for each additional player, so the supply has 42 Coppers in a 4-player game; the trashing means your deck is usually not growing because of it, helping you play it more often. Witch is active the first 10 times it's played (by anyone), but gets played a bunch of times after that anyway; 14 plays of this would be enough to give out the Copper pile.
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eHalcyon

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Re: $2 copper attack
« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2013, 02:50:37 pm »
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In four player games the Copper pile would often get emptied. Remember that the Copper pile is actually smaller by 7 for each additional player, so the supply has 42 Coppers in a 4-player game; the trashing means your deck is usually not growing because of it, helping you play it more often. Witch is active the first 10 times it's played (by anyone), but gets played a bunch of times after that anyway; 14 plays of this would be enough to give out the Copper pile.

Yes.  So with 4 players, it's *close* to Curse in terms of numbers, but with fewer players you can play it many more times and pass out way more junk per player.
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LastFootnote

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Re: $2 copper attack
« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2013, 03:58:05 pm »
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I don't really mind if it doesn't work for more than 2 players. And what about Mountebank then ?

Mountebank can be Moated with Curses, and Copper-giving isn't its main function.
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brokoli

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Re: $2 copper attack
« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2013, 06:26:52 pm »
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I don't really mind if it doesn't work for more than 2 players. And what about Mountebank then ?

Mountebank can be Moated with Curses, and Copper-giving isn't its main function.
Still. Most of the time mountebank gives copper, and mountebank is dominant so often. The purpose of this card is to be an average $2 cards, not a must-buy. The optional trashing makes it clearly weak early. So, I don't see any problem with its copper-junking.

Maybe it should be even weaker ? Another version :

$2 Action/Attack
Choose one : +1 card or +$1
Each other player gains a copper.
Each other player may trash a card from his hand.

I'm designing a fan expansion, and all cards interacts with coppers somehow. And right now, this one seems good to me.
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eHalcyon

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Re: $2 copper attack
« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2013, 07:02:47 pm »
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The trashing weakens it, but it's been pointed out that the function makes it similar to Cutpurse. Cutpurse is not weak. I still don't think this kind of copper junking attack works. If this card works, I'd expect it to be $3.
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brokoli

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Re: $2 copper attack
« Reply #20 on: July 14, 2013, 07:39:41 pm »
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I'm convinced the cutpurse comparison is looking at it wrong. It's like comparing chancellor to scavenger.
Cutpurse's main power is at the opening. On turn 3-4, it's a very powerful card.
This is a bad opening card, while on the contrary, junkers tends to be better when they are bought early.

And mainly, this gives choice. You are not forced to trash a card from your hand, and I'm persuaded there are many situations when you don't want to. Often you prefer to take the curse of the torturer. Often you don't want to trash a copper from that opponent's bishop, because you want to buy a card of a certain price.

This is more a junker than a handsize decreaser. And well, having a copper decrease your money density, but not that much.

And of course, I already said it, but the optional trashing is also useful for estates and curses. And you usually have them early in the game, while junkers are less effective later...
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: $2 copper attack
« Reply #21 on: July 14, 2013, 09:32:43 pm »
+1

I am also convinced that this attack is nowhere near is strong as Cutpurse.  Cutpurse is painful because as long as you have Copper in hand, that guarantees -$1 on your turn.  This card gives the "defender" a lot of flexibility, and most importantly, generally benefits him if played early.  Early you'll be replacing Estate with Copper, which, barring TfB and Baron, is a good thing.  Even when you don't have an Estate in hand to trash, it's not that bad to take in a Copper early on, sometimes that can be helpful for hitting $5 more easily.  Later on it becomes either a junking attack or a Cutpurse, whichever is less painful for the person taking the attack.  Cutpurse is pretty good early, but it's not so great mid- and late-game, and it gives +$2, which is better than +$1 or +1 card.  Witch and Torturer are priced the same, but Torturer gives another card, which is a pretty big bonus, in exchange for giving an option to discard two.  Even if this had the same discarding effect as Cutpurse, giving it both an alternative attack option and a weaker vanilla effect should be plenty to make it fair at $2.

Also, consider that the two main differences between a card costing $2 and a card costing $3 are that (i) it's easier to pick up lots of $2's and (ii) you can open with a $2 and a $5.  This is terminal, so I don't think (i) is a concern, and I don't think there's anything crazy you could do by opening this/$5.  I don't really see why pricing this at $2 would be a problem.
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