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Author Topic: My mind is kinda blown after this game  (Read 7772 times)

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Watno

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My mind is kinda blown after this game
« on: July 13, 2013, 04:49:35 pm »
+5




Take a close look at this board and try to figure out what will happen before clicking the link:
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130713/log.505c626fa2e6c78ad2ed5aa6.1373748222157.txt

Waiting for Councilroom and achievements to come back, I think this one was missing in my list.v still one turn short.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2013, 04:57:39 pm by Watno »
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eHalcyon

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Re: My mind is kinda blown after this game
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2013, 05:16:44 pm »
0

I guessed Chapel down, big turns with Fortress, PH for money, Menagerie for draw, Storeroom for buy and sifting (and activating Menagerie); maybe some Stonemason shenanigans with Fortress too.

I was... sort of close?
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Watno

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Re: My mind is kinda blown after this game
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2013, 05:25:28 pm »
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Yeah, I guess that's what be both aimed for.
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Qvist

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Re: My mind is kinda blown after this game
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2013, 10:32:48 pm »
0

Indeed a cool game, Watno.
A lot of cool interaction possible.

- Menagerie/Storeroom engine
- Stonemason for a lot of Poor Houses
- Trashing Fortress out of your discard with Hermit

It's sad that the game ends so quickly.

Destierro

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Re: My mind is kinda blown after this game
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2013, 03:19:59 am »
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My guess is some sort of crazy three pile ending on like turn 10. Stonemason accelerates like you would not believe.
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Re: My mind is kinda blown after this game
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2013, 08:36:16 am »
0

(before looking at the log) I think a chapel/fortress opening, then paying 3 for stonemason to pick up a couple poor houses, then a storeroom, then working with what you have to get more fortresses, poor houses and some quick provinces because this game is ending fast.

(now that I have looked at the log) Pretty close, the one thing I didn't think about was using stonemason on fortress to gain 3-cost cards.  In any case, this set of cards is pretty awesome.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2013, 08:50:44 am by 2.71828..... »
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Re: My mind is kinda blown after this game
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2013, 10:59:12 am »
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There was also a hermit, not used but it could have a role here as a card gainer.
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flies

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Re: My mind is kinda blown after this game
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2013, 12:06:15 pm »
0

fortress opening is counter-intuitive (never open a non $ village is kind of a rule), but I think it's actually pretty important.  You need extra actions right away to get the most out of your poor houses and such.

I also favor a hermit here.  it helps trashing even faster, rids you of the chapel after, plus it helps bulk up on menageries and poor houses.  You also need a storeroom, and oases aren't bad, especially given that you can discard a fortress and then hermit to pick it back up out of the trash.  It can also add estates in a pinch, and the gains help control the endgame.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2013, 12:07:19 pm by flies »
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SCSN

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Re: My mind is kinda blown after this game
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2013, 12:28:15 pm »
0

never open a non $ village is kind of a rule

That "rule" is horrible.
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flies

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Re: My mind is kinda blown after this game
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2013, 12:40:35 pm »
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i would be very surprised many village openings with high +skill among council room's best openings.
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achmed_sender

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Re: My mind is kinda blown after this game
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2013, 12:56:22 pm »
0

i would be very surprised many village openings with high +skill among council room's best openings.

I already opened Minstrel, Hamlet, Plaza or Shanty Town, NV at 5/2, which all does't provide coins
Probably villages you should never open with: Vanillage, Workers Village (maybe in a heavy Peddler game or something), TR/Procession, Herald, Walled Village
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Re: My mind is kinda blown after this game
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2013, 01:02:37 pm »
+1

Opening worker's village is often quite a reasonable choice in peddler games.
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SCSN

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Re: My mind is kinda blown after this game
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2013, 01:03:44 pm »
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i would be very surprised many village openings with high +skill among council room's best openings.

With the exception of Native Village/Bridge, openings involving a Village are obviously never going to rank very high on an absolute list of best opens, but that doesn't at all imply that opening with a village isn't a good play on a decent number of boards, because all those power opens just don't show up that often.

Hamlet and Shanty Town (not Hamlet/Shanty Town :P) are particular favorites of mine to open with, and in a game like this, with both Chapel and Poor House on the board, opening anything but Village/Chapel is a blunder.
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Re: My mind is kinda blown after this game
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2013, 01:18:51 pm »
0

I also favor a hermit here.  it helps trashing even faster, rids you of the chapel after, plus it helps bulk up on menageries and poor houses.  You also need a storeroom, and oases aren't bad, especially given that you can discard a fortress and then hermit to pick it back up out of the trash.  It can also add estates in a pinch, and the gains help control the endgame.

I actually think hermit is really slow here compared to stonemason trashing a fortress.  I might pick a hermit through stonemasoning a fortress, but I doubt it since menagerie and poor house are both more important (in my reasoning).  I think the ideal engine here would include fortress, storeroom, menagerie, poor house, and stonemason.  The neat thing about those 5 cards is that the only ones you ever have to purchase are fortresses and stonemasons (aside from your starting chapel which we can all agree is necessary).  Other cards (hermit and oasis for example) would be useful, but in a game that will be ending in 10 turns I just don't think they are important enough to pick up
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flies

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Re: My mind is kinda blown after this game
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2013, 01:40:38 pm »
0

I also favor a hermit here.  it helps trashing even faster, rids you of the chapel after, plus it helps bulk up on menageries and poor houses.  You also need a storeroom, and oases aren't bad, especially given that you can discard a fortress and then hermit to pick it back up out of the trash.  It can also add estates in a pinch, and the gains help control the endgame.

I actually think hermit is really slow here compared to stonemason trashing a fortress.  I might pick a hermit through stonemasoning a fortress, but I doubt it since menagerie and poor house are both more important (in my reasoning).  I think the ideal engine here would include fortress, storeroom, menagerie, poor house, and stonemason.  The neat thing about those 5 cards is that the only ones you ever have to purchase are fortresses and stonemasons (aside from your starting chapel which we can all agree is necessary).  Other cards (hermit and oasis for example) would be useful, but in a game that will be ending in 10 turns I just don't think they are important enough to pick up

you make a strong case.
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Re: My mind is kinda blown after this game
« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2013, 02:13:47 pm »
0

i would be very surprised many village openings with high +skill among council room's best openings.

With the exception of Native Village/Bridge, openings involving a Village are obviously never going to rank very high on an absolute list of best opens, but that doesn't at all imply that opening with a village isn't a good play on a decent number of boards, because all those power opens just don't show up that often.

Hamlet and Shanty Town (not Hamlet/Shanty Town :P) are particular favorites of mine to open with, and in a game like this, with both Chapel and Poor House on the board, opening anything but Village/Chapel is a blunder.

I agree with this as well, but it is consistent with the observation that opening non $ village is usually unwise.  I can't tell if you disagree with the latter or if you're saying it's a bad rule b/c the typical case is barely more than half the time or something.
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Warfreak2

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Re: My mind is kinda blown after this game
« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2013, 02:15:39 pm »
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With Baker in the kingdom, you can open Procession/Fortress. That's two villages!
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Awaclus

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Re: My mind is kinda blown after this game
« Reply #17 on: October 11, 2013, 03:19:18 pm »
0

i would be very surprised many village openings with high +skill among council room's best openings.

With the exception of Native Village/Bridge, openings involving a Village are obviously never going to rank very high on an absolute list of best opens, but that doesn't at all imply that opening with a village isn't a good play on a decent number of boards, because all those power opens just don't show up that often.

Hamlet and Shanty Town (not Hamlet/Shanty Town :P) are particular favorites of mine to open with, and in a game like this, with both Chapel and Poor House on the board, opening anything but Village/Chapel is a blunder.

I agree with this as well, but it is consistent with the observation that opening non $ village is usually unwise.  I can't tell if you disagree with the latter or if you're saying it's a bad rule b/c the typical case is barely more than half the time or something.
I understood it as "It's a bad rule because sometimes it should be broken".

EDIT: I just realized that I've been sending a lot of posts containing a description of how I interpret another post and nothing or little else. I'm not sure how useful this is.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2013, 03:20:40 pm by Awaclus »
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SCSN

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Re: My mind is kinda blown after this game
« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2013, 02:06:54 am »
0

i would be very surprised many village openings with high +skill among council room's best openings.

With the exception of Native Village/Bridge, openings involving a Village are obviously never going to rank very high on an absolute list of best opens, but that doesn't at all imply that opening with a village isn't a good play on a decent number of boards, because all those power opens just don't show up that often.

Hamlet and Shanty Town (not Hamlet/Shanty Town :P) are particular favorites of mine to open with, and in a game like this, with both Chapel and Poor House on the board, opening anything but Village/Chapel is a blunder.

I agree with this as well, but it is consistent with the observation that opening non $ village is usually unwise.  I can't tell if you disagree with the latter or if you're saying it's a bad rule b/c the typical case is barely more than half the time or something.

If by "usually" you mean "more often than not", then I agree. But when you say opening a non-$ village is counter-intuitive because not doing so is more or less a rule, that implies to me that you are thinking of the 95-100% range, and that is definitely wrong.

Moreover, you'd do yourself a big favor if you stopped thinking in terms of such simplistic rules entirely, as they are training wheels for newbies that give them a fast way to improve from terrible to merely bad (e.g. this particular "rule" is meant specifically for the village-idiot type), and once you become decent they only hold you back by preventing you from seeing each decision node in Dominion as a unique situation where all possible options should be considered on their own merit, independent of some nonsense you may have read on a forum.
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flies

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Re: My mind is kinda blown after this game
« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2013, 09:17:13 am »
0

Moreover, you'd do yourself a big favor if you stopped thinking in terms of such simplistic rules entirely, as they are training wheels for newbies that give them a fast way to improve from terrible to merely bad (e.g. this particular "rule" is meant specifically for the village-idiot type), and once you become decent they only hold you back by preventing you from seeing each decision node in Dominion as a unique situation where all possible options should be considered on their own merit, independent of some nonsense you may have read on a forum.

I could probably improve my play by incorporating this mindset.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: My mind is kinda blown after this game
« Reply #20 on: October 12, 2013, 11:45:48 am »
+6

I think the "don't open Village" rule is a really good one, and I've seen people screw it up at all levels of play. The notable exceptions are when you need the actions but aren't sure you'll hit $4 again soon (Ambassador war and probably some other things), Shanty Town (which is usually not for the Village effect but the draw, this is effectively an economy/cycling card in the early game), and Hamlet (which you often open with just because you hit 5/2, but sometimes you get it so you can use the plus buy to get more Hamlets).

These types of heuristics aren't for noobs only, I use them on a regular basis to evaluate boards and make decisions. They help make complex scenarios more manageable, and focus your thoughts on the important strategic considerations. They effectively compile the statistical results of a large number of games played by a large number of people.

And, while SCSN is dead on that you can't follow these rules blindly, I've always found that making the rule explicit actually helps me see the exceptional cases. "Never skip Cursers" a decent enough rule, makes me think about possibly skipping the Curser. More importantly it makes me think about Cursers. You might say "Cursers are important" gets you the same effect, and that's probably true, but "Never skip Cursers" also tells you which side to generally err on: buy those Cursers.

You don't have to be so literal about following the "nevers" or "always", they are absolute to bring the question into sharper focus.
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SCSN

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Re: My mind is kinda blown after this game
« Reply #21 on: October 12, 2013, 04:45:59 pm »
+2

The notable exceptions are when you need the actions but aren't sure you'll hit $4 again soon (Ambassador war and probably some other things), Shanty Town (which is usually not for the Village effect but the draw, this is effectively an economy/cycling card in the early game), and Hamlet (which you often open with just because you hit 5/2, but sometimes you get it so you can use the plus buy to get more Hamlets).

Those are precisely the kind of "subtleties" a rule like "never open with a village" doesn't tell you. You know these things from a wealth of experience, but an intermediate person still blindly following the rule does not, and once he gets beyond the village-idiot stage, he really should start replacing rules of thumb with proper understanding.

Quote
These types of heuristics aren't for noobs only, I use them on a regular basis to evaluate boards and make decisions. They help make complex scenarios more manageable, and focus your thoughts on the important strategic considerations.

Yeah, but for noobs these things are and should be fixed rules, as that's the fastest way to improve and you can't learn when to deviate from rules without first having some solid experience with sticking to them.  However, once they have that experience they should stop seeing them as fixed and start actively going against them, or they will never graduate to the level where you know--not "know" like a fact you looked up, but truly know on a visceral level--that they are merely useful heuristics.

Quote
They effectively compile the statistical results of a large number of games played by a large number of people.

And as such they provide you a quick ascend to the plateau of mediocrity ;)

Quote
I've always found that making the rule explicit actually helps me see the exceptional cases.

This is a good point.

Quote
You might say "Cursers are important" gets you the same effect, and that's probably true, but "Never skip Cursers" also tells you which side to generally err on: buy those Cursers.

And that last thing is exactly what I see as bad advise. Well, it's great if all you care about is maximizing your win % in your current game, as you almost certainly want to in a tournament match, but outside of those you'd ideally focus not on winning this particular game but on becoming a better player. In that case, when faced with two options that look at all close, one of which is familiar to you and something you know how to execute well, while the other is something novel you have rarely tried before, you should always pick the last one. You want to try ignoring the curser if you think you might be able to get away with it, just like you want to go for the engine even if it looks a little wacky and you suspect BM-X to be slightly better. Not because these things will bring you the most victories right away (they won't), but because in the long run doing this will make you really really good in deciding under exactly what conditions to deviate from the obvious path. This is something you can't learn from an article or from a forum post or from "the statistical results of a large number of games played by a large number of people". You can only learn this by getting out there, by experimenting for yourself, by deliberately deviating from the standard rules a little (or a lot!) more than looks reasonable to your uncalibrated eye. You learn far more from things that don't work out but potentially might have than from reinforcing yet again your age-old habits.

I'm saying this not because I think you personally don't understand this, but because I think there are quite a number of people who read your post and come away from it thinking "yeah, better stick to the rules", even though that really is the opposite of what they should be doing, as by far the largest hole in the games of good but not great players that I encounter on Goko is not that they haven't learned the rules, but that they've learned them too well
« Last Edit: October 12, 2013, 04:48:33 pm by SheCantSayNo »
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: My mind is kinda blown after this game
« Reply #22 on: October 12, 2013, 06:19:42 pm »
+2

I don't want to discourage people from experimenting or trying new things, but I don't want to disparage the rules of thumb either because I really think "maximizing your win % in your current game" is a good way of developing good habits (and not just mediocre skill, it's a thing I've always tried to focus on and I think it can help people to the top of the leaderboard). And I've always believed there's a lot more finesse and skill improvement to be eked out of the "boring" strategies then most people will admit.

Well it's probably just a difference in approaches, and you've certainly improved a lot more than me in the time that I've been playing with you, so your way is probably better! But, in my experience the random kingdoms still give plenty of opportunities to experiment while still playing somewhat conservatively.

And in contrast to what you mentioned, I've always noticed players who are good but not great because they try fancy plays all the time, and pseudo-combos that don't do anything. (Seems we have different minds! Why can't you just think the way I do?!?)
« Last Edit: October 12, 2013, 10:55:48 pm by Mic Qsenoch »
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Polk5440

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Re: My mind is kinda blown after this game
« Reply #23 on: October 12, 2013, 09:24:25 pm »
0

And in contrast to what you mentioned, I've always noticed players who are good but not great because they try fancy plays all the time, and pesudo-combos that don't do anything. (Seems we have different minds! Why can't you just think the way I do?!?)

Fancy play syndrome has got to be the next most common ailment in Dominion after whatever virus causes village idiocy.

Quote
You might say "Cursers are important" gets you the same effect, and that's probably true, but "Never skip Cursers" also tells you which side to generally err on: buy those Cursers.

And that last thing is exactly what I see as bad advise. Well, it's great if all you care about is maximizing your win % in your current game, as you almost certainly want to in a tournament match, but outside of those you'd ideally focus not on winning this particular game but on becoming a better player.

Knowing basic strategies and benchmark cases and "rules" gives you good heuristics to quickly evaluate alternative strategies and gives you a quick feel for what your opponent might do. Witch is on the board. Any more powerful attacks? No? Get one... unless you see a really good way of dealing with the incoming curses your opponent is likely to give you. "Never buy cursers" is not bad advice -- it's really good advice because it focuses the analysis for those who want to think beyond it.

And really, you don't want to make your opponent sit there for 10 minutes while you think... and then settle on Double Witch.
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Re: My mind is kinda blown after this game
« Reply #24 on: October 14, 2013, 02:47:33 pm »
+1

And in contrast to what you mentioned, I've always noticed players who are good but not great because they try fancy plays all the time, and pseudo-combos that don't do anything. (Seems we have different minds! Why can't you just think the way I do?!?)

I feel like I've had this problem in opposites. Before I used to rely on baseline Big Money strategies too much, but now I'm trying to build engines whenever it looks remotely plausible. I feel like trying to always build the engine is the right playstyle for learning, since engines are trickier to learn and have a lot more subtleties you have to worry about. When you go through your deck every turn or every 2 turns, you feel the effect of a bad purchase a lot more.

The tough part is figuring out when the treasure strategy is actually good enough. Wharf-BM is pretty fast, and I've lost to it a lot, but I still play it a lot less than I should.
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