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Author Topic: A Kingdom for Beginners  (Read 14427 times)

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GeronimoRex

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Re: A Kingdom for Beginners
« Reply #25 on: July 15, 2013, 02:06:17 pm »
+4

Let's look at the recommended base set "First Game" as a model:
It has:

Cellar (strong trasher)
Moat (reaction)
Village (village)
Woodcutter (terminal silver)
Workshop (card gainer)
Militia (handsize attack)
Remodel (TFB)
Smithy (+cards)
Market (market)
Mine (TFB)

It's hard to make a beginner friendly set following that model out of what you've got, but I'd probably try something like:

Pearl Diver ($2)
Squire ($2)
Warehouse ($3)
Armory ($4)
Salvager ($4)
Worker's Village ($4)
Bazaar ($5)
Mint ($5)
Rabble ($5)
Hunting Grounds ($6)

I've found that most beginners overbuy actions, so having extra non-terminals or village options helps to keep their decks from stalling out and hyper-cluttering. More fun for them if they aren't sitting there staring at a hand full of terminals, so half of these are non-terminal, three of them with +2 actions (optional on Squire). This should help avoid stalling.

The other common mistake is not having money, so there need to be ways for them to have money, even if they buy mostly actions. However, there aren't many simple +$ cards in those sets -- Squire and Bazaar being some of the best examples.

I also wanted both an Attack and an engine opportunity. Rabble isn't an ideal attack for this deck, but it is pretty simple and not as damaging as most of the other attacks in these decks.

I know Hunting Grounds may be an odd, and very powerful choice, but I wanted it to be possible to demonstrate the power of an engine without having to buy a bunch of Rabbles and continually attacking opponents to keep an engine running.

And having Mint on the board allows you to demonstrate the power of trashing a bunch of coppers to reduce handsize.

Anyway, I think this would be well worth trying. Hope it goes well getting a new group hooked.
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GeronimoRex

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Re: A Kingdom for Beginners
« Reply #26 on: July 15, 2013, 02:09:16 pm »
0

One idea I just had that may help -- normally, I set up boards with Kingdom cards in one area and Victory and Treasure cards arranged separately.

For beginners, it might help to at least arrange the treasure cards alongside the kingdom in a way that still keeps them distinct, but to help stress that, for instance, at the $3 price point, you should consider buying Silver.

Dunno if this would help players, but might reduce them forgetting about coils altogether.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: A Kingdom for Beginners
« Reply #27 on: July 15, 2013, 02:29:53 pm »
0


Pearl Diver ($2)
Squire ($2)
Warehouse ($3)
Armory ($4)
Salvager ($4)
Worker's Village ($4)
Bazaar ($5)
Mint ($5)
Rabble ($5)
Hunting Grounds ($6)

I like this one, but I'd probably prefer Wandering Minstrel to Worker's Village, so you can get an engine even without too much trashing, and even maybe have it semi-counter mass Rabble Warehouse does both these things well enough probably, but why not have more cards do it. You don't need 3 cards with +buy.

Also, maybe Watchtower instead of Hunting Grounds, since there's enough villages and money-giving actions to maybe make the draw-to-X thing work. Plus then you have a reaction, which though it doesn't stop the attack of Rabble, helps with the too-many terminals problem, since it can be used on your buy. Plus it helps get more cheap cards, which is nice when people don't know how to properly build economy.

The other alternative is replace Hunting Grounds with Catacombs so you get your non-attacking drawer at only $5, and then replace Rabble with Pillage, which is a more obviously painful attack. This might not leave enough drawing with Catacombs as the only drawer, so you might still want to squeeze in Watchtower, maybe if you're willing to lose Pearl Diver. But then again, maybe people don't like the one-shot nature of Pillage, and you might get into the whole Mint a Spoils thing, so it might not be worth it.

This gives you:
Pearl Diver, Squire, Warehouse, Watchtower, Armory, Salvager, Wandering Minstrel, Bazaar, Mint, Rabble
or
Squire, Warehouse, Watchtower, Armory, Salvager, Wandering Minstrel, Bazaar, Mint, Catacombs, Pillage
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clb

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Re: A Kingdom for Beginners
« Reply #28 on: July 15, 2013, 04:12:29 pm »
+7


Cellar (strong trasher)

Does that make Warehouse the most powerful trasher in the game? ;)
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Just a Rube

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Re: A Kingdom for Beginners
« Reply #29 on: July 15, 2013, 04:30:59 pm »
0


And having Mint on the board allows you to demonstrate the power of trashing a bunch of coppers to reduce handsize.

I'd avoid Mint for the first game, if only for the one guy who lucks into a 5-2 opening, and then opens Mint. While Squire makes this not entirely unrecoverable, it can still be a difficult mistake to climb back from.
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shMerker

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Re: A Kingdom for Beginners
« Reply #30 on: July 15, 2013, 06:07:04 pm »
0


And having Mint on the board allows you to demonstrate the power of trashing a bunch of coppers to reduce handsize.

I'd avoid Mint for the first game, if only for the one guy who lucks into a 5-2 opening, and then opens Mint. While Squire makes this not entirely unrecoverable, it can still be a difficult mistake to climb back from.

Online, sure. In-person, I would hope you would warn newish players or let them take that move back once they realize what they've done. I bring it up because usually when people are trying to introduce someone to the game it is in person anyway.
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Warfreak2

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Re: A Kingdom for Beginners
« Reply #31 on: July 16, 2013, 03:50:44 am »
0

I think "trashing is good" is the message you want to give; "you don't want to trash those 5 Coppers" is contradictory to that, obviously it's a valid exception, but here they'll be learning the exception before the rule.
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ftl

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Re: A Kingdom for Beginners
« Reply #32 on: July 16, 2013, 04:01:36 am »
+4

Just a reminder, people - we're talking about a First Game.

You should not in the slightest care whether people come out with any ideas about good strategy. It doesn't matter whether they get the idea that trashing is good or that trashing is useless, that actions are good or bad or treasures are good or bad or whatever. If they come out with the opinion that "+Buy with Counting House" is an unstoppable combo, that's fine!

The point isn't to teach strategy. They can think about strategy later, when (if!) they decide they actually like the game enough to care about how to be good at it.
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ftl

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Re: A Kingdom for Beginners
« Reply #33 on: July 16, 2013, 04:05:32 am »
+2

Online, sure. In-person, I would hope you would warn newish players or let them take that move back once they realize what they've done. I bring it up because usually when people are trying to introduce someone to the game it is in person anyway.

Right, but you don't want somebody's first experience with Dominion to be:

Them: "Hmm, all these cards to buy... I'll try... that one!"
You: "No, don't do that one, you'll screw yourself over because of [rules stuff]"

First game shouldn't give an opportunity for someone to screw up their deck, because having someone hover over your shoulder and tell you what to do is annoying and you should try to minimize that.
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GeronimoRex

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Re: A Kingdom for Beginners
« Reply #34 on: July 16, 2013, 09:53:56 am »
+1

Some good comments -- thinking back to my first game, you're right -- it's not about teaching best strategy (to most people); first game is about letting people have fun.

To that end, here's a revised kingdom that I think is probably more "fun" for beginners:

Pearl Diver ($2)
Squire ($2)
Sage ($3)
Smugglers ($3)
Salvager ($4)
Worker's Village ($4)
Bazaar ($5)
Rabble ($5)
Venture ($5)
Grand Market ($6)


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shMerker

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Re: A Kingdom for Beginners
« Reply #35 on: July 17, 2013, 05:46:34 pm »
+1

Online, sure. In-person, I would hope you would warn newish players or let them take that move back once they realize what they've done. I bring it up because usually when people are trying to introduce someone to the game it is in person anyway.

Right, but you don't want somebody's first experience with Dominion to be:

Them: "Hmm, all these cards to buy... I'll try... that one!"
You: "No, don't do that one, you'll screw yourself over because of [rules stuff]"

First game shouldn't give an opportunity for someone to screw up their deck, because having someone hover over your shoulder and tell you what to do is annoying and you should try to minimize that.

Fair enough. I wasn't really trying to say Mint should be included in a first game. I don't think the scenario you described above is all that likely though. New players are usually really averse to trashing anything. You remind them about the trashing and they go "I have to do what?" and you let them take it back. No hovering or lengthy explanations needed.
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Polk5440

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Re: A Kingdom for Beginners
« Reply #36 on: July 17, 2013, 08:42:42 pm »
0

You might want to stick with Seaside. Especially if you are going to play several games in row. Not many people like playing all different cards for every one of their first 5 games -- it's too steep a learning curve to learn what all those cards do and begin to strategize well.

Your main goal the first game is to teach the basic mechanics and have fun. That's it. They're still getting used to the idea of building a deck. No Sea Hag (no Shelters, no Goons, no KC, no Knights, no cards not in the supply). No slogs. For whatever reason, the people I teach have no problems with durations, so they seem okay in a first game.

How about these pure Seaside kingdoms for the first two games (they share a lot of cards, but I think would play out pretty differently):

Bazaar, Explorer, Wharf, Caravan, Salvager, Cutpurse, Navigator, Warehouse, Smugglers, Pearl Diver

Bazaar, Treasury, Merchant Ship, Caravan, Cutpurse, Treasure Map, Island, Salvager, Fishing Village, Lighthouse

"High Seas" might be a good third game:

Bazaar, Explorer, Wharf, Caravan, Island, Pirate Ship, Lookout, Smugglers, Embargo, Haven

The other two recommended Seaside kingdoms would be good next. Then on to full random with in the expansion.

That should fill a night of Dominion easily.
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Eran of Arcadia

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Re: A Kingdom for Beginners
« Reply #37 on: July 22, 2013, 11:16:53 am »
+3

So, we played a couple of games with one of the sets of friends. Not entirely sure how they enjoyed it, but here were (best as I can recall) the 2 kingdoms we used:

Game 1:
Cutpurse
Lighthouse
Armory
Worker's Village
Smugglers
Pearl Diver
Talisman
Bazaar
Market Square (?)
Salvager (?)

Game 2:
Beggar
Warehouse
Storeroom
?

So no, I don't remember all that well . . .

But it seemed to go well. Game 1, we 3-piled before anyone had bought a province (I came in last place by virtue of having trashed an estate.) But they picked up on the rules fairly well. The second game, the presence of beggar, and the fact that 3 of the 4 players were playing it a lot, led to a non-kingdom treasure pile running out for the first time in a game I have played.

So I think that we had a good selection of cards, that introduced the most basic elements without getting too complicated.
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GeronimoRex

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Re: A Kingdom for Beginners
« Reply #38 on: August 13, 2013, 10:35:28 am »
+2

The second game, the presence of beggar, and the fact that 3 of the 4 players were playing it a lot, led to a non-kingdom treasure pile running out for the first time in a game I have played.

I had that happen in one of the first half-dozen games I played, but Trader was the culprit. That realization that "what? WHAT? Everything can turn into SILVERS? One silver can turn into THREE silvers? None of us knew what we were doing, and were trashing silvers for silvers, traders for silvers, everything else for silvers... Silvers were the first pile to go. Was pretty funny in retrospect.

Upside was that we all had plenty of money to start greening. If I remember correctly, that game was actually won by the friend who picked up a couple of Harems that gave him the edge when the provinces split.
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pst

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Re: A Kingdom for Beginners
« Reply #39 on: August 13, 2013, 01:00:00 pm »
+3

Here is my suggestion:

  • $7: Bank
  • $6: Altar
  • $5: Bazaar
  • $4: Cutpurse, Salvager, Worker's Village
  • $3: Warehouse, Sage, Smugglers
  • $2: Vagrant

No durations. Simple cards to understand. There is an attack, but not devastating, as well as Smugglers to avoid the solitaire feeling. Bank may be the simplest card to make clear that yes, you actually play your treasure cards.
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gman314

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Re: A Kingdom for Beginners
« Reply #40 on: August 13, 2013, 04:54:34 pm »
0

Yeah, the original question has been asked and answered. Whatever. Here's my approach to the problem:

Let's assume that the "first game" kingdom is good for beginners and that in that set, each card fits some sort of role. Now, from those assumptions, we can claim that a mix of roles of that sort is good for beginners. Then, we can identify the roles filled and find replacements for each:

Roles:
Moat - Stops attacks
Cellar - Sifting
Village - Play multiple terminals
Workshop - Gainer
Woodcutter - + Buy
Smithy - Terminal draw
Remodel - Trashing for more expensive cards
Militia - Attack
Mine - Trashing treasures (you could argue that it's a remodel-type card, but I don't want 2 of those)
Market - Cantrip

Now, a possible replacement for each, going for fairly simple cards is:
Attack Stopper - Lighthouse
Sifter - Warehouse
Village - Worker's village
Gainer - Armory
+Buy - Trade Route
Terminal draw - Catacombs
Remodel-style trashing - Expand
Attack - Cutpurse
Treasure Trashing - Loan
Cantrip - Peddler

Despite many of the cards being simple, the board actually looks a little more complex, with some good potential for a WV - Catacombs engine, with trashing from Loan and some Peddler support. With an aggressive player, this board could be quite punishing for new players, but in a game of all newbies, or with any experienced players just playing Catacombs - BM, I don't think it would get much more punishing than the first game.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2013, 01:45:12 am by gman314 »
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dondon151

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Re: A Kingdom for Beginners
« Reply #41 on: August 13, 2013, 05:00:03 pm »
+1

There is an attack, but not devastating,

Don't play a 4-player game with Cutpurse. It's quite devastating.
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sudgy

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Re: A Kingdom for Beginners
« Reply #42 on: August 13, 2013, 05:55:26 pm »
0

Also, I think the point of moat is to be a reaction, not an attack stopper.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

eHalcyon

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Re: A Kingdom for Beginners
« Reply #43 on: August 13, 2013, 07:24:37 pm »
0

And you left Cellar in the new set, which the OP does not have.
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Thanar

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Re: A Kingdom for Beginners
« Reply #44 on: August 14, 2013, 12:15:43 am »
0

I've found that adding Council Room to a starting Kingdom to be helpful for beginners' games with 3 or 4 players, since it usually results in everyone getting lots of cards in their hands and being able to ramp up in power and do cool things fairly quickly. Here's a set that is close to what I've used for teaching with 4 players in the past:

Lighthouse ($2)
Courtyard ($2)
Steward ($3)
Warehouse ($3)
Thief ($4)
Worker's Village ($4)
Upgrade ($5)
Council Room ($5)
Festival ($5)
Nobles ($6)
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eHalcyon

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Re: A Kingdom for Beginners
« Reply #45 on: August 14, 2013, 01:04:51 am »
0

Are you guys no longer following the OP, who says he does not have base?
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gman314

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Re: A Kingdom for Beginners
« Reply #46 on: August 14, 2013, 01:44:55 am »
0

And you left Cellar in the new set, which the OP does not have.

Yeah, I totally meant to put Warehouse there. Messed up on that one.
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