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Author Topic: A Kingdom for Beginners  (Read 14428 times)

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Eran of Arcadia

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A Kingdom for Beginners
« on: July 12, 2013, 08:42:08 pm »
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I intend to introduce several different sets of people to this game in the near future, and I have been thinking about what cards would be best for this purpose. Now, as it happens, the only sets I have IRL are Seaside, Prosperity, and Dark Ages. And obviously I want to avoid any that are too complicated, which rules out most of Dark Ages . . . On the plus side, the fact that I have the base card set will make the various treasure and VP cards easier to distinguish.

So what would a good kingdom look like if you don't have any cards from the base game? Whenever I am picking cards, I try to include a trasher, a village, and a +Buy - so Worker's Village seems like a no-brainer in this case, and it's pretty simple. But what should I use for a trasher? An attack? Would alt-VP or treasures make things too complicated?

What do you all think?
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Powerman

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Re: A Kingdom for Beginners
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2013, 08:47:13 pm »
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Royal Seal is fun for beginners.  Forager isn't bad, as it introduces trashing + trash interaction.  As an attack... Maybe Rabble.  Junk Dealer isn't awful for trashing either.
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heron

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Re: A Kingdom for Beginners
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2013, 08:50:58 pm »
+4

If you had Intrigue, I would definitely recommend a kingdom with King's Court, Goons, Masquerade, and Peddler. Especially fun to do to newbies in three-player!

I will edit in a more serious reply when I get time.

Edit: Okay, here goes. I will try to make it like the "First Game" recommended kingdom, so that you can show them how you can beat most beginners with BM-X, but the best strategy is usually an engine.

Haven
Vagrant
Lookout
Warehouse
Armory
Ironmonger
Worker's Village
Rabble
Vault
Bank
No Platinum/Colonies

Thoughts: Started out with Vault, to demonstrate a strong BM option. Then added in Rabble, for good draw and a stalling attack. Threw in a gainer, village (with +Buy), and some trashing. I chose lookout because it trashes slowly and is nonterminal. You don't want to start players off with chapel. Bank because it helps the engine. Then filled the rest of the slots with harmless, spammable cards, because I don't want newbies to overbuy terminals, because terminal collision sucks. And what kind of newbie doesn't love playing a bunch of action cards on their turns?

Note: I would play two games, the first of which the new players do what they want and you play Big Money-Vault, showing that those treasure cards are there for a reason, and that you can't just aimlessly buy action cards and think it will work out. Then build the engine the second game, showing that action cards with direction will crush BM.
If the new players want, you could have a third game in which you play Vault-Bm again and they crush you with the engine :P
« Last Edit: July 12, 2013, 09:51:04 pm by heron »
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dondon151

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Re: A Kingdom for Beginners
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2013, 09:22:05 pm »
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There was a topic somewhat related to this that was posted before Guilds was released. I think I asked the question of what kingdoms would be good for beginners assuming the absence of the base set.
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microman

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Re: A Kingdom for Beginners
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2013, 09:26:23 pm »
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I think using cards like armory, altar, bazaar, and scavenger are all pretty safe cards that have basic concepts that would work well with newbs.  Also, sea hag I think would work fine for a first curser.  probably would want to skip the duration cards right away though.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2013, 05:15:21 am by microman »
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ftl

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Re: A Kingdom for Beginners
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2013, 09:43:49 pm »
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Lighthouse would be a good one to use. You want some sort of defense against attacks to be available, and lighthouse is an obvious one, and it's also clear why it's a duration - it protects you while it stays out!

Cutpurse is a reasonable attack to use. It demonstrates how attacks hurt, but it'll never be too bad because it'll never hit anybody's "good cards".

Armory seems fine to include as a gainer (the recommended "First Game" set has Workshop). The gaining on top of the deck doesn't seem like it would be confusing.

Smithy variants are harder to pick - you should probably include one, but the choices are Wharf, Rabble, Catacombs, and Hunting Grounds. Rabble can be a nasty attack if stacked (as it would be with 3-4 players), Wharf is an extra duration, and Catacombs/Hunting Grounds have on-trash abilities whose uses will be sort of obscure. Maybe use Catacombs.

Don't include alt-VP or Kingdom Treasures. Province/Duchy/Estate are already new VP cards in someone's first game, and Copper/Silver/Gold are new too.

How about this kingdom? Worker's Village, Catacombs, Cutpurse, Lighthouse, Armory, Altar, Storeroom, Navigator,  Bazaar, Smugglers. No platinum/colony or shelters.

Has Bazaar and Worker's Village as villages with two different benefits. Has Catacombs as terminal draw. Cutpurse as an attack that hits enough to hurt but not enough to cripple, and Lighthouse as a defense against it. Gainer in Armory and Altar, Altar as a trasher. With a few spare slots, I put in Smugglers because that's non-attack player interaction, and people might like smuggling good stuff. Navigator and Storeroom because why not, but maybe there's better stuff to put in those slots. Maybe swap in Hunting Grounds instead of Storeroom, then you'll have two cards with on-trash abilities.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2013, 09:46:50 pm by ftl »
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Kirian

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Re: A Kingdom for Beginners
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2013, 09:53:37 pm »
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Like Rabble, Cutpurse is nasty in the early game when stacked.  It can cause you to lose a whole turn just as readily as Rabble can, but it's available to all players on the first two turns.
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DG

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Re: A Kingdom for Beginners
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2013, 10:47:06 pm »
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Vagrant, Moat, Sage, Bishop, Salvager, Talisman, Wandering Minstrel, Pillage, Venture, Bank.
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Just a Rube

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Re: A Kingdom for Beginners
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2013, 11:59:31 pm »
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How about this kingdom? Worker's Village, Catacombs, Cutpurse, Lighthouse, Armory, Altar, Storeroom, Navigator,  Bazaar, Smugglers. No platinum/colony or shelters.

In addition to the concerns about Cutpurse, I'd recommend avoiding durations for the first game. Maybe switch in Market Square for Lighthouse, and either Urchin or Rogue for Cutpurse?

Market Square lets you get another source of +buy and lets you introduce the concept of Reactions.

Urchin is less than ideal for a couple reasons (the whole upgrading aspect chief among them) but it doesn't stack badly, they are unlikely (with this set up) to connect for a while, and the attack occasionally stings enough to be worth mentioning, at least.

Alternatively you could go with Rogue, which is weak enough and slow enough to not be overwhelming, and lets you connect the idea of Reactions to Attacks.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: A Kingdom for Beginners
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2013, 01:18:16 am »
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You probably want to avoid durations at least for the first few games. It's hard enough to get the flow of a turn right without these extra cards staying out.

The things you want are:
village
trash
gain
buy
attack (preferably hand-size)
draw
sift
possibly reaction...
lack of a completely dominant card
multiple cards at all price points

Something like:
Vagrant, Squire, Warehouse, Watchtower, Wandering Minstrel, Armory, Salvager, Cutpurse, Pillage, Catacombs
should work.
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PSGarak

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Re: A Kingdom for Beginners
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2013, 01:45:00 am »
+1

I would actually avoid Vault and Bishop for the very first game (but introduce soon afterwards), because it involves decision-making on other players' turns. Some Vault decisions are hard choices even for veterans, but for noobs I don't think they'll be able to properly evaluate trashing a copper. That requires knowing the value of the best $4 vs Silver, and that's something you don't pick up for a game or two.

I agree that Rabble is a good attack in a first game. 1) Demonstrates value of draw 1a) you can use it to show the power of BMX 2) Attack is straightforward to resolve and involves no decisions 3) Attack is noticeable, but not as punishing as a curses 4) Attack highlights how green cards choke your deck and it's desirable to get rid of them 4a) Lookout interacts well, allowing them to see the value of trashing.

Squire is good because they'll go overboard for the +actions, and then end up using them for silver, and accidentally end up with decent-enough buying power to pick up an interesting card or two. Armory is good because someone will be so proud of themselves when they're clever enough to gain a card, draw it, and play it that turn.

I'm of two minds on Salvager. It's sort of a subtle card, and the one of the hard things to get a feel for when you're new is sacrificing the current turn for future benefit. I think what pushes me towards it, is that if someone builds a deck they don't like they can use Salvager to fix it. Having that option may prevent someone from tuning out and concluding they don't like the game.

You know what? Put Counting House in there. Someone will try it out and have an awesome turn with it (and probably a crappy turn or two).
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Warfreak2

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Re: A Kingdom for Beginners
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2013, 03:24:19 am »
+1

Also, sea hag I think would work fine for a first trasher.
?
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microman

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Re: A Kingdom for Beginners
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2013, 05:14:22 am »
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Also, sea hag I think would work fine for a first trasher.
?
Edit: Sea hag would work fine as an introduction to cursers and the curse card.  My bad, I have no clue why I said trasher.  Thanks for catching me on that.
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Asper

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Re: A Kingdom for Beginners
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2013, 08:07:46 am »
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I wouldn't introduce real attacks in the first game. the reason is that while you don't lack okay attacks, but you do lack straightforward defenses. This makes it hard to introduce them without the danger of frustration and/or confusion. What i would introduce in exchange is non-attack interaction. Normally i wouldn't recommend using Embargo in game one, but it allready gives them a grip to the dangers of curses before being directly attacked by them:

Embargo
Smugglers
Warehouse
Workers Village
Salvager
Armory
Explorer
Bazaar
Junk Dealer
Catacombs

The set also has trashing, sifting, villages, top-decking and gaining in the action phase. If you introduce Sea Hag in your second game and offer Watchtower as a defense, they allready know the value of trashing and of top-decking as well as the dangers of curses. Contraband is another interaction card, so i would consider adding it for game 2, too.
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Fuu

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Re: A Kingdom for Beginners
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2013, 11:11:30 am »
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My suggestion for a diverse set of cards that people I play with, usually new players, find fun (not an easy selection to make...):

Pearl Diver - good to have a simple 2 on board
Sage, Smugglers - an intuitive sifter and an interactive gainer
Monument, Worker's Village - easy source of +buy, although Monument is perhaps questionable
Band of Misfits, Bandit Camp, Mystic, Rabble - cloning cards is fun and simple with these options, Spoils are cute, guessing is fun and Rabble, well, it's +cards and a weak enough attack not to have to introduce Lighthouse etc.
Altar - provides an obvious benefit to trashing

Other cards that almost made it:
Warehouse
Armory, Salvager
Hunting Grounds
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Just a Rube

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Re: A Kingdom for Beginners
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2013, 11:37:42 am »
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My suggestion for a diverse set of cards that people I play with, usually new players, find fun (not an easy selection to make...):

Pearl Diver - good to have a simple 2 on board
Sage, Smugglers - an intuitive sifter and an interactive gainer
Monument, Worker's Village - easy source of +buy, although Monument is perhaps questionable
Band of Misfits, Bandit Camp, Mystic, Rabble - cloning cards is fun and simple with these options, Spoils are cute, guessing is fun and Rabble, well, it's +cards and a weak enough attack not to have to introduce Lighthouse etc.
Altar - provides an obvious benefit to trashing

Other cards that almost made it:
Warehouse
Armory, Salvager
Hunting Grounds
Not sure I'd put Band of Misfits in here; the choices may seem simple, but they will still slow things down significantly for new players, especially since they'll want to look over all the cards each time the would play it.

Pearl Diver is also somewhat meh...I'd maybe put in Vagrant in it's place, with a comment along the lines of "don't worry about what ruins, curses and shelters are, we'll get to them next game" at the start. It's probably slightly worse in these circumstances, but doesn't require a choice from the players (and Pearl Diver's choice is one of the least interesting in the game).

In general, avoid cards that involve decisions while playing them; new players are already making decisions when they buy things, and when they inevitably have clashing terminals and have to figure out which to play. No need to overwhelm them with more complexity. Incidentally, that's my main concern about Embargo, which is itself a tricky card.

I'd also avoid cards that do anomalous things. Monument stands out on your list for the VP tokens; you want them to associate VP with clogging your deck up, not with those little tokens. They can learn the exceptions later; for now stick to the basics of the game.
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Mr. Moneybags

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Re: A Kingdom for Beginners
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2013, 12:11:17 pm »
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This is the one i commonly use:

Cellar
Village
Moneylender
Lab
Monument
Cutpurse
Adventurer
Workshop
Mine
Market

It has some of the same cards as the suggested first game set but with several differences:

Cutpurse is a less frustrating attack card than Militia.

Emphasizes trashing coppers, which is much more intuitive with Moneylender/Mine. Then players can see the value of Adventurer

Monument allows for a token strategy.
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Mr. Moneybags

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Re: A Kingdom for Beginners
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2013, 12:16:12 pm »
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Other cards that almost made it:
Warehouse
Armory, Salvager
Hunting Grounds

I like the idea of Armory and Warehouse. Maybe they're easier at first than workshop and cellar, having the card you gain go right on top of your deck and learning to correctly select the cards you want to keep from a larger hand.
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Just a Rube

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Re: A Kingdom for Beginners
« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2013, 04:27:57 pm »
+1

This is the one i commonly use:

Cellar
Village
Moneylender
Lab
Monument
Cutpurse
Adventurer
Workshop
Mine
Market

It has some of the same cards as the suggested first game set but with several differences:

Cutpurse is a less frustrating attack card than Militia.

Emphasizes trashing coppers, which is much more intuitive with Moneylender/Mine. Then players can see the value of Adventurer

Monument allows for a token strategy.
OP doesn't have Base, which is the origin of the conundrum. Otherwise you could just use the "First Game" kingdom, which is intentionally designed to show off everything, and does an excellent job of it.

Edit: I second your recommendation of Warehouse, as a good intro to sifting, but I'd hold off VP tokens like Monument, until they've played at least one game and seen how Green Cards clog up your deck.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2013, 04:30:52 pm by Just a Rube »
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matste

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Re: A Kingdom for Beginners
« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2013, 07:03:52 pm »
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Wow, Seaside, Prosperity and Dark Ages for beginners. That's a really a hard task. After the first game you will hopefully have the second one, so you need to introduce many concepts in the first game without completely overwhelming them with choices and edge cases.

Here are my design criteria:

1. Players' decks must improve gradually. No megaturns or crazy combos. In other words, effect of each card should be obvious. Engines should occur naturally, no traps.

2. No durations
In my experience, beginners tend to have problems with basic game mechanics, like when to shuffle, so durations are really unaceptable in the first game.

2. No attacks
Yes, attacks are an important aspect of Dominion, but keep in mind that if you're introducing the game IRL, it will probably be a 3+ player game where attacks will be very annoing. I don't see a simple counter like Moat in your sets.

4. At least one card at each price level. You don't want them to feel unlucky and they will always want to buy the most expensive card anyway.

5. Benefit of trashing must be obvious.

6. No alternative VP. KISS.

7. All vanilla bonuses should be introduced.

8. Big money shouldn't be a good strategy. There's nothing more annoying than losing to a begginer playing big money (been there).

Here's my deck:

- No shelters, no Colony.
- Grand Market.
This is the most complicated card in the deck. It requires the players to understand the concept of separate phases of playing treasures and buying cards. Normally I wouldn't recommend it with beginners, but you own Prosperity, you have to wipe out any misconceptions in this area quickly. On the plus side, Grand Market clearly states that Copper is bad.

- Bazar
- Catacombs
  Engine parts which aren't usually a mistake. Coolnes of engines is naturally introduced.
 
- Mystic
  I remember a beginner quickly grasping the idea of Wishing Well. This should be similar.
 
- Venture
  Once someone understands Grand Market, he won't have problems with Venture.
 
- Armory
- Island
- Salvager
  Terminals. This is the weakness of this kingdsom. I feel there should be more, but you don't have that many begginer friendly terminals in your sets.
 
- Lookout
  Only one card for 3. This will help beginners avoid the mistake of not buying Silver.
 
- Vagrant
  There must exist a card costing 2. It clearly wins with Pearl Diver by its simplicity.
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Just a Rube

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Re: A Kingdom for Beginners
« Reply #20 on: July 13, 2013, 09:02:57 pm »
+1

So I've criticized various people's sets, I might as well add my 2 cents (with the caveat that I have limited experience w/ Dark Ages; indeed the 3 sets you have are the 3 big sets I don't own IRL).

I mostly agree with matste criteria, with the following exceptions:
a) I think it's important to at least introduce attacks, if only to avoid the "multiplayer solitaire" criticism.
b) Big Money should be a non-terrible strategy (although with something like Catacombs, which s/he has) while the winning strategy should ideally be a village-smithy engine (since that's the simplest conceptually, but seems really cool when you first see it, as well as indicating that money can be important).

So, my approach:

Beggar: a Reaction, and defends directly against Rogue. The fact that it gives 3 copper, costs 2 and has additional functionality will suggest that copper is not a great thing to gain, but at the same time it is a boost of $ when they inevitably clutter their decks with junk

Warehouse, Forager: a solid trasher and a sifter, to introduce the 2 key ways of dealing with junk. Will also help them recover if they overplay Beggar

Armory, Worker's Village, Salvager: a gainer, a village and another trasher. This set will be loaded with +buys

Bazaar, Catacombs, Rogue: Village which shows off the relative importance of +coin and +buy, a terminal draw card, and a non-insane attack (the must gain clause prevents it from trashing everybody's deck)

Altar: Reinforces the idea that trashing can be good, and gives a way to get those additional engine pieces. Plus, if they overbuy this, they at least have a way to get rid of it
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Warfreak2

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Re: A Kingdom for Beginners
« Reply #21 on: July 14, 2013, 04:51:59 am »
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2 3. No attacks
Yes, attacks are an important aspect of Dominion, but keep in mind that if you're introducing the game IRL, it will probably be a 3+ player game where attacks will be very annoing. I don't see a simple counter like Moat in your sets.

6. No alternative VP. KISS.
It's good, and important, that you can hinder your opponents as well as help yourself; from the OP's sets, I think Rabble is OK. It would be better if there was some attack that didn't stack, like Militia, which was in my first game. (Urchin/Mercenary is a bit complex.)

Not all alt-VP is "welcome to a game of bizarro-Dominion where Copper is good, and the Curses don't matter"; from the OP's sets, Island would be fine, or Feodum which isn't game-warping on most boards. I think the "in some games, sometimes, there are other ways to win" hint is nice to have.
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Fuu

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Re: A Kingdom for Beginners
« Reply #22 on: July 14, 2013, 12:32:40 pm »
0

My suggestion for a diverse set of cards that people I play with, usually new players, find fun (not an easy selection to make...):

Pearl Diver - good to have a simple 2 on board
Sage, Smugglers - an intuitive sifter and an interactive gainer
Monument, Worker's Village - easy source of +buy, although Monument is perhaps questionable
Band of Misfits, Bandit Camp, Mystic, Rabble - cloning cards is fun and simple with these options, Spoils are cute, guessing is fun and Rabble, well, it's +cards and a weak enough attack not to have to introduce Lighthouse etc.
Altar - provides an obvious benefit to trashing

Other cards that almost made it:
Warehouse
Armory, Salvager
Hunting Grounds
Not sure I'd put Band of Misfits in here; the choices may seem simple, but they will still slow things down significantly for new players, especially since they'll want to look over all the cards each time the would play it.

Pearl Diver is also somewhat meh...I'd maybe put in Vagrant in it's place, with a comment along the lines of "don't worry about what ruins, curses and shelters are, we'll get to them next game" at the start. It's probably slightly worse in these circumstances, but doesn't require a choice from the players (and Pearl Diver's choice is one of the least interesting in the game).

In general, avoid cards that involve decisions while playing them; new players are already making decisions when they buy things, and when they inevitably have clashing terminals and have to figure out which to play. No need to overwhelm them with more complexity. Incidentally, that's my main concern about Embargo, which is itself a tricky card.

I'd also avoid cards that do anomalous things. Monument stands out on your list for the VP tokens; you want them to associate VP with clogging your deck up, not with those little tokens. They can learn the exceptions later; for now stick to the basics of the game.

I'd agree that you want to avoid cards with difficult decisions, but decisions in themselves can add some life to the game. Embargo is a culprit here because you have to anticipate what cards your opponents will want to buy at what stage of the game - and that is too much on your first game. However, with Band of Misfits (and Pearl Diver) it is more a case of 'what do I want right now', and I've found that new players don't find that too difficult to grasp.

I'm not entirely happy with that kingdom though, especially Monument and Worker's Village.


Other cards that almost made it:
Warehouse
Armory, Salvager
Hunting Grounds

I like the idea of Armory and Warehouse. Maybe they're easier at first than workshop and cellar, having the card you gain go right on top of your deck and learning to correctly select the cards you want to keep from a larger hand.

They are pretty fun cards for a first game, but there is the inevitable question with Warehouse of 'do I draw three, play another action card and then discard three'. Also, with gainers like Armory and Mine it can also get confusing since you have to remember that the gained card doesn't go in the usual place.

- No shelters, no Colony.
- Grand Market.
- Bazar
- Catacombs
- Mystic
- Venture
- Armory
- Island
- Salvager
- Lookout
- Vagrant

I like this especially Catacombs. Grand Market, Island and Lookout are interesting (risky?) choices. My personal bias says Pearl Diver instead of Vagrant since you haven't introduced ruins etc., and it also combos with Mystic.

Beggar: a Reaction, and defends directly against Rogue. The fact that it gives 3 copper, costs 2 and has additional functionality will suggest that copper is not a great thing to gain, but at the same time it is a boost of $ when they inevitably clutter their decks with junk
Warehouse, Forager: a solid trasher and a sifter, to introduce the 2 key ways of dealing with junk. Will also help them recover if they overplay Beggar
Armory, Worker's Village, Salvager: a gainer, a village and another trasher. This set will be loaded with +buys
Bazaar, Catacombs, Rogue: Village which shows off the relative importance of +coin and +buy, a terminal draw card, and a non-insane attack (the must gain clause prevents it from trashing everybody's deck)
Altar: Reinforces the idea that trashing can be good, and gives a way to get those additional engine pieces. Plus, if they overbuy this, they at least have a way to get rid of it

I don't like Rogue here. I'd save cards that gain from the trash until much later, just to preserve the enjoyment of introducing this unique feature. Also, the interaction with Beggar might be a bit confusing. Beggar in itself, particularly along with Altar and other trash/sift could be good though. Ghost Ship might be an interesting alternative to Rogue, given Beggar. With all the +buy you could probably cut Salvager or Worker's Village due to duplicated basic effects, not sure what you'd introduce instead.
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Warfreak2

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Re: A Kingdom for Beginners
« Reply #23 on: July 14, 2013, 01:03:46 pm »
+3

Ghost Ship
Absolutely not, this card is no fun for beginners, especially in multiplayer.
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If the only engine on the board is Procession->Conspirator, I will play it.

ycz6

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Re: A Kingdom for Beginners
« Reply #24 on: July 15, 2013, 01:35:42 am »
+1

I disagree with having Rabble in a first game set. A player in her first game is still getting used to the idea of the Action/Buy/Cleanup gameflow, and forcing her to do lots of shuffling outside of her turn is going to very offputting.

Also, Cutpurse is not a milder attack than Militia in a multiplayer game.
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