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Author Topic: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Town wins!)  (Read 45209 times)

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liopoil

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #275 on: July 23, 2013, 09:30:21 pm »

town to scum:

EFHW
UoS
Jimmmmm (pretty much null)
nkirbit
sudgy
ashersky
liopoil

I could go for a UoS lynch, if there is sufficient support for it and enough people are online in the next half hour...
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UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #276 on: July 23, 2013, 09:30:37 pm »

EFHW: Care to move your vote to Liopoil, or is there someone else you think we should be considering?
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liopoil

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #277 on: July 23, 2013, 09:32:25 pm »

How does being the first to claim cop amount to rolefishing?  None of those claims at that point in the game should be taken seriously... Can you explain how explaining others to be the second or third cop amounts to rolefishing?  It just looks like it amounts to following the plan, to me.
The plan wasn't neccessarily going to happen. EFHW made it happen. The plan can only help scum find our cop. the plan IS rolefishing, but that's tempered a bit by the fact that ash, who proposed it, is IC...
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liopoil

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #278 on: July 23, 2013, 09:32:36 pm »

EFHW: Care to move your vote to Liopoil, or is there someone else you think we should be considering?
don't worry, she will.
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ashersky

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #279 on: July 23, 2013, 09:33:25 pm »

How does being the first to claim cop amount to rolefishing?  None of those claims at that point in the game should be taken seriously... Can you explain how explaining others to be the second or third cop amounts to rolefishing?  It just looks like it amounts to following the plan, to me.
The plan wasn't neccessarily going to happen. EFHW made it happen. The plan can only help scum find our cop. the plan IS rolefishing, but that's tempered a bit by the fact that ash, who proposed it, is IC...

I still disagree that my plan was helping scum.  Do you know who the Cop is now?  I don't.
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nkirbit

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #280 on: July 23, 2013, 09:33:30 pm »

For what it's worth, I agree with Lio that EFHW made a weak case on him about the "super cop" thing.

1)  It's not clear if Lio is even exaggerating here.. maybe the cop is "super good".  It's certainly more powerful than the doctor, right?

2)  Even if Lio is exaggerating, I'm not sure that's particularly a scum tell.  I guess scum do "bend the truth" more, since they're not actually trying to prove the truth, but is a scum really going to go out and lie about how useful a role is?  What's the incentive?

Now to re-read the case on Lio.
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ashersky

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #281 on: July 23, 2013, 09:33:55 pm »

I don't see scum!EFHW here.  I'm thinking back to Shakespeare EFHW and not seeing any meta-connections.
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liopoil

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #282 on: July 23, 2013, 09:34:11 pm »

How does being the first to claim cop amount to rolefishing?  None of those claims at that point in the game should be taken seriously... Can you explain how explaining others to be the second or third cop amounts to rolefishing?  It just looks like it amounts to following the plan, to me.
The plan wasn't neccessarily going to happen. EFHW made it happen. The plan can only help scum find our cop. the plan IS rolefishing, but that's tempered a bit by the fact that ash, who proposed it, is IC...

I still disagree that my plan was helping scum.  Do you know who the Cop is now?  I don't.
nope, but I have a slightly better idea than I did before. Luckily, I'm not scum.
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ashersky

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #283 on: July 23, 2013, 09:34:50 pm »

town to scum:

EFHW
UoS
Jimmmmm (pretty much null)
nkirbit
sudgy
ashersky
liopoil


If lio is scum, I see sudgy as his partner.

Also, everyone needs to do one of these lists right now, before the day ends.
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liopoil

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #284 on: July 23, 2013, 09:35:21 pm »

For what it's worth, I agree with Lio that EFHW made a weak case on him about the "super cop" thing.

1)  It's not clear if Lio is even exaggerating here.. maybe the cop is "super good".  It's certainly more powerful than the doctor, right?

2)  Even if Lio is exaggerating, I'm not sure that's particularly a scum tell.  I guess scum do "bend the truth" more, since they're not actually trying to prove the truth, but is a scum really going to go out and lie about how useful a role is?  What's the incentive?

Now to re-read the case on Lio.
right, I'm not exaggerating. The cop is the only thing that makes this game remotely balanced, without the cop, scum would have a major advantage. he's super-awesome.
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liopoil

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #285 on: July 23, 2013, 09:35:57 pm »

Also, everyone needs to do one of these lists right now, before the day ends.
...how about you?
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ashersky

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #286 on: July 23, 2013, 09:36:05 pm »

For me, from scummiest down:

liopoil >/= sudgy > nkirbit = Jimmmmm > EFHW > UoS > ashersky
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ashersky

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #287 on: July 23, 2013, 09:36:19 pm »

Also, everyone needs to do one of these lists right now, before the day ends.
...how about you?

I was hitting Post.
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liopoil

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #288 on: July 23, 2013, 09:37:14 pm »

Jimmmm, we really need you to put a vote down... you've been online for a while now, and posted elsewhere. you also said:
I'm here!
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liopoil

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ashersky

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #290 on: July 23, 2013, 09:38:20 pm »

Jimmmm, we really need you to put a vote down... you've been online for a while now, and posted elsewhere. you also said:
I'm here!

Hopefully he's re-reading.  It's a short thread.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #291 on: July 23, 2013, 09:38:35 pm »

Jimmmm, we really need you to put a vote down... you've been online for a while now, and posted elsewhere. you also said:
I'm here!

Yes I know, I'm re-reading and trying to sort out the best lynch. I'm leaning you at the moment.
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liopoil

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #292 on: July 23, 2013, 09:39:13 pm »

what the.... no idea how that happened.

For me, from scummiest down:

liopoil >/= sudgy > nkirbit = Jimmmmm > EFHW > UoS > ashersky
wow, that's almost exactly opposite my list, and we're both town.... that is not good.
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ashersky

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #293 on: July 23, 2013, 09:39:36 pm »

Mislynch + successful NK = lylo on D2.  Just FYI.
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ashersky

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #294 on: July 23, 2013, 09:39:56 pm »

what the.... no idea how that happened.

For me, from scummiest down:

liopoil >/= sudgy > nkirbit = Jimmmmm > EFHW > UoS > ashersky
wow, that's almost exactly opposite my list, and we're both town.... that is not good.

Maybe scum is in the middle.
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nkirbit

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #295 on: July 23, 2013, 09:40:09 pm »

This seems like hyperbole to me, and a significant change from how Liopoil was talking about these issues yesterday:
already we have significantly lowered our chance of winning, which could easily have been avoided. We have outed the doc, and I'm sure scum have a good idea who the cop is.

Unvote

man, I go to sleep and terrible stuff happens. Frustrated at this town.

first, frustrated at myself for making an RVS vote in a unique votes game and not removing it before I left.
second, frustrated at sudgy for putting someone at L-1 without checking. always always check.
...
fifth, frustrated at people for following this ridiculous plan.

why is this plan ridiculous? because it CANNOT HELP TOWN, it can ONLY HURT TOWN. it cannot help town because the best-case scenario scum ignore all the claiming. worst case scenario someone kinda slips and scum successfully get info on who the cop really is.

But regarding the plan, yesterday Liopoil said
I don't really see why the claims mean anything. The people aren't actually saying that they're the cop. scum can just ignore the claims.

So why does he go from this to complete "Scum know who the cop is" "This plan is terrible, I'm mad at town for following it."
Those objections should have come up from him yesterday, if he thought this was going to matter, not after the damage (such as it is) is already done.  Now I don't think we've ruined our chances at all, at least not from how I see the plan working, but it's clear that Liopoil thinks that we have, and this makes him scummy to me.  It makes him more likely to be scum who thinks he knows more than he actually does.

crap, just realized... this game uses unique votes as a tiebreaker!!! that means... RVS is bad! and I RVSed!! sudgy did too. that could be a problem...

And after this quote, Liopoil suggests unvoting and voting on everyone else once to even things out.  BUT HE NEVER DOES IT.  Liopoil had plenty of time to fix his mistake yesterday, and he clearly realized it and was online for quite a while after realizing it, but he did nothing.  That seems like the kind of "oops I forgot" that can hurt town while hoping to make it look accidental, particularly if his scum partner wanted to come in and hammer Ash in the night and Liopoil might not have been online during that time.  That might have almost happened, I don't know, but Liopoil's declining to unvote after talking about how bad it is seems really suspicious.

Vote: Liopoil

Well, sure, his tone changed from one day to the next, but I think that Lio's message stayed the same.  Before, he said "I don't really see why the claims mean anything. The people aren't actually saying that they're the cop. scum can just ignore the claims.".. which I'm reading as "I don't think this plan does anything,". 

Lio, from the start, opposed the plan.  Posts #42, 51 are the only two early ones I see, and while neither is as strong as what he says the next day, that makes sense, because he went from frustrated to not frustrated.  If your case is built on Lio being scummy for this change, I disagree.

Yeah, Lio forgetting to unvote was somewhat anti-town, and I'm suspicious of him for the same reasons I said I was of Sudgy earlier.  Scum should know better, but scum know we know that.
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EFHW

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #296 on: July 23, 2013, 09:41:13 pm »

why I think we should lynch EFHW today:

-lurking. I'm pretty sure she's still the lowest on the post count
-first to claim cop, encouraging others to do so too and so rolefishing.
-terrible reason for suspecting me:
Right now my tentative scumread is Liopoil, because he hasn't unvoted or voted everyone else, like he said he would, and for the bit of hyperbole in his first post.  Having a cop is great, but having one that can't be protected isn't super-awesome.

our cop is super-awesome. they should investigate scum and report back so we can win and stuff.

Also, scum got to talk during the confirmation stage.  It would be good strategy to put a couple votes on some players when it was easy and then say "whoops!".
uuhhh what? no hyperbole from me. Our cop is super-awesome. being macho is not much of a nerf. it nerfs the doctor more really. Consider him just like a cop in a game with no protective roles. still awesome. If he could be protected than the cop would be super-OP.
-terrible reasons for suspecting sudgy:
I'm finding sudgy scummier, actually, for declining the balance unique votes plan, putting Ash at L-1, and getting on the "UoS is tunneling" wagon. 
declining the balance unique votes plan was the correct move, as it was a bad plan, as shown by sudgy. I showed in my other post why I think he's town for putting ash at L-1, and why in the world is finding UoS suspicious scummy?

Vote: EFHW

Whether or not people agree with my reasoning, I do not think these arguments and observations make me scummy:

Responding point by point as to . 1. I may have the fewest posts (though I doubt I do now), but I think you will find that I have responded to each issue that has arisen and participated actively, if concisely, in the conversation.  2.  No one objected to the claiming cop plan, so to call me scummy now for participating doesn't make sense to me.  3.  My pointing out your exaggeration was a tentative scumread.  I didn't vote you for it and I didn't try to make it into more than it was.  It was an impression I wanted to put out there for others to think about.

As for the reasons for suspecting sudgy, 1. As I already said, he declined to balance the votes before you brought up any reasons not to.  Both of you are also scummy for saying "I'll fix it later", when that might well be impossible.  2.  His Ash vote might have been careless.  It isn't enough alone to make me suspect him.  3.  U of S was not tunneling.  It was a conversation between the two of you clarifying what each of you was trying to say.  sudgy's comment struck me as fanning the flames of the "UoS is tunneling" idea.  It still does.  4.  A reason you don't mention is his explanation for not balancing the votes, which is that unbalanced votes could make it harder to mislynch someone.  This is not a good reason, as I said before, and the logic therefore seems contrived.  5.  By voting and then unvoting Ashersky, he also gave him another unique vote, and maybe that was the intention.
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liopoil

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #297 on: July 23, 2013, 09:42:05 pm »

I don't know what I can say at this point. EFHW will vote for me, and Jimmmm probably will too, even nkirbit might.
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ashersky

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #298 on: July 23, 2013, 09:42:39 pm »

I will note that I had a townread on liopoil during the first half of this game day (yesterday IRL).  So he's worked his way down from that.

Sudgy is still a valid candidate.
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ashersky

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #299 on: July 23, 2013, 09:42:53 pm »

I don't know what I can say at this point. EFHW will vote for me, and Jimmmm probably will too, even nkirbit might.

You could push a case on your partner, sudgy.
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