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Author Topic: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Town wins!)  (Read 45166 times)

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UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #175 on: July 23, 2013, 11:32:41 am »

First, I realized, lio and I should NOT vote for others.  That's just giving more unique votes.  We shouldn't have RVSed, but it's too late now.  I'll Unvote now, but it won't change that now...
So you realize the problems with the RVS votes but despite Liopoil's plan (that he failed to actually follow through on, just threw out there for towncred and ignored) you don't want to fix it and are treating it like something that is impossible to change?  I'm not saying the plan is the best in the world, or even that you should necessarily do it, but treating it so fatalistically when it's a fixable problem (albeit with the downside of reducing your ability to manipulate unique votes later) is a bit weird.

Now, I would vote ash, but I don't want to give unique votes

Actually, I agree with Jimmmmm.  Vote: ashersky.  Either his plan was made before the game or he did to make himself seem like his town self, and he FoSed people who hadn't posted for a tiny bit.

Maybe you didn't say what you meant, but the first half of your sentence is saying that either Ash made his plan before the game to be towny or to seem towny therefore he's scummy.  That is ridiculous.  You can't win that, but that logic seems to be depressingly common.  "Either he wants to help town, or he wants to look like he's trying to help town, he must be scum" is just a terrible form of argument.  You haven't pointed out anything scummy about the plan, but Ash is scummy for having a plan, because it makes him look like how he plays as town. :o

The FoS at people who hadn't posted was silly, but I didn't take it as particularly serious,  (I joked back at him after I stopped "lurking" and opened up my computer).  I could see thinking it was a bit scummy, but it's hardly a reason to vote, especially in this game, where you have just explained that you understand that UNIQUE VOTES ARE A PROBLEM.

And since your first point is nonsense and seems to be misunderstanding Jimmmmm, (in which case you should be finding Jimmmm ridiculous, not agreeing with him) you are basically putting Ash at L-1, giving him another unique vote which you understand to be bad, for (more or less) RVS-FoSing me, EFHW, and Jimmmmm?  That is nuts.
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UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #176 on: July 23, 2013, 11:33:42 am »

Unless more things come to light, I'd like to lynch one of Liopoil and Sudgy today.

I absolutely will not vote Ashersky.
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liopoil

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #177 on: July 23, 2013, 11:38:49 am »

crap, just realized... this game uses unique votes as a tiebreaker!!! that means... RVS is bad! and I RVSed!! sudgy did too. that could be a problem...

And after this quote, Liopoil suggests unvoting and voting on everyone else once to even things out.  BUT HE NEVER DOES IT.  Liopoil had plenty of time to fix his mistake yesterday, and he clearly realized it and was online for quite a while after realizing it, but he did nothing.  That seems like the kind of "oops I forgot" that can hurt town while hoping to make it look accidental, particularly if his scum partner wanted to come in and hammer Ash in the night and Liopoil might not have been online during that time.  That might have almost happened, I don't know, but Liopoil's declining to unvote after talking about how bad it is seems really suspicious.

Vote: Liopoil
what's the point in unvoting, the unique vote is already there. Sure, I should've have removed my vote before I left. I didn't think a wagon would build on him overnight, but I guess that's blitz. oh well, I'll learn from it and not make the same mistake again.

I never did it. why? because it makes my vote less powerful, because I don't count as a unique vote anymore. and sudgy wasn't going to do it either. And if we got to a point where my unique vote on ash mattered, I would put my unique vote on the other wagon too (and still will if that happens)

it seems the point you are making in this section is that I made a "mistake" that might have been intentional. the same can be said for sudgy with his putting ash at L-1.
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liopoil

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #178 on: July 23, 2013, 11:40:37 am »

This seems like hyperbole to me, and a significant change from how Liopoil was talking about these issues yesterday:
already we have significantly lowered our chance of winning, which could easily have been avoided. We have outed the doc, and I'm sure scum have a good idea who the cop is.

Unvote

man, I go to sleep and terrible stuff happens. Frustrated at this town.

first, frustrated at myself for making an RVS vote in a unique votes game and not removing it before I left.
second, frustrated at sudgy for putting someone at L-1 without checking. always always check.
...
fifth, frustrated at people for following this ridiculous plan.

why is this plan ridiculous? because it CANNOT HELP TOWN, it can ONLY HURT TOWN. it cannot help town because the best-case scenario scum ignore all the claiming. worst case scenario someone kinda slips and scum successfully get info on who the cop really is.

But regarding the plan, yesterday Liopoil said
I don't really see why the claims mean anything. The people aren't actually saying that they're the cop. scum can just ignore the claims.

So why does he go from this to complete "Scum know who the cop is" "This plan is terrible, I'm mad at town for following it."
Those objections should have come up from him yesterday, if he thought this was going to matter, not after the damage (such as it is) is already done.  Now I don't think we've ruined our chances at all, at least not from how I see the plan working, but it's clear that Liopoil thinks that we have, and this makes him scummy to me.  It makes him more likely to be scum who thinks he knows more than he actually does.
what the... why do people keep accusing my of hyperbole, and why is it scummy? and I'm not being hyperbolic! you said: "why does he go from this to complete "Scum know who the cop is"" I said: "I'm sure scum have a good idea who the cop is.". Now who's being hyperbolic, hmm?

In regard to you saying I changed my mind about the plan, I didn't. the quote you highlighted:
I don't really see why the claims mean anything. The people aren't actually saying that they're the cop. scum can just ignore the claims.
I am objecting to the plan in this very post! I am saying that it cannot help town because the claims are meaningless and scum will ignore them. I also dissagree with the plan here:
wait, I don't get it... how does this lower the chances of mafia killing the cop? won't they still have a 1/5 chance? (actually, that's only if we lynch scum today, it's a 1/4 chance if we don't). I mean, the claims won't mean anything...
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UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #179 on: July 23, 2013, 11:46:01 am »

what's the point in unvoting, the unique vote is already there. Sure, I should've have removed my vote before I left. I didn't think a wagon would build on him overnight, but I guess that's blitz. oh well, I'll learn from it and not make the same mistake again.

I never did it. why? because it makes my vote less powerful, because I don't count as a unique vote anymore. and sudgy wasn't going to do it either. And if we got to a point where my unique vote on ash mattered, I would put my unique vote on the other wagon too (and still will if that happens)

it seems the point you are making in this section is that I made a "mistake" that might have been intentional. the same can be said for sudgy with his putting ash at L-1.
Regarding your last comment, note that Sudgy is my other top scumread.  I agree with you!

UNVOTING DOES NOT MAKE YOUR VOTE LESS POWERFUL.  And there is a HUGE point in unvoting.  We don't lynch off unique votes unless there is a tie.  I get that your plan made your vote less powerful, but unvoting would have been an excellent middle ground between following through and not.  I really don't understand "What's the point in unvoting".  The point is to not have a vote on Ash that you don't believe in.  You can always put it back, you know.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #180 on: July 23, 2013, 11:46:47 am »


Hmm, you're making some sense. Having now re-read liopoil, my biggest problem is that he's been posting a reasonable amount without actually offering any opinions. I mentioned that his frustration seemed genuine, and in isolation it did. But having read his whole game now, that sort of thing, that is, theory talk, talking about plans, talking about what's good and bad for Town, is all he's really said.
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UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #181 on: July 23, 2013, 11:50:28 am »

Liopoil, those objections are so weak, they didn't even look like objections to the rest of us.  And now you're talking about how bad town is and how scum probably have a good idea of who the cop is.  That is a HUGE shift from seeming like you don't care and you think it's pointless but unharmful, which is how your quotes from yesterday read.

Also, I wasn't being hyperbolic, I was exaggerating for effect in my fake quotes of you (that came after the real quote).  I'm saying that I think you're panicking way way too much.  To a degree that I think may be artificial.
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liopoil

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #182 on: July 23, 2013, 11:51:55 am »

what's the point in unvoting, the unique vote is already there. Sure, I should've have removed my vote before I left. I didn't think a wagon would build on him overnight, but I guess that's blitz. oh well, I'll learn from it and not make the same mistake again.

I never did it. why? because it makes my vote less powerful, because I don't count as a unique vote anymore. and sudgy wasn't going to do it either. And if we got to a point where my unique vote on ash mattered, I would put my unique vote on the other wagon too (and still will if that happens)

it seems the point you are making in this section is that I made a "mistake" that might have been intentional. the same can be said for sudgy with his putting ash at L-1.
UNVOTING DOES NOT MAKE YOUR VOTE LESS POWERFUL.  And there is a HUGE point in unvoting.  We don't lynch off unique votes unless there is a tie.  I get that your plan made your vote less powerful, but unvoting would have been an excellent middle ground between following through and not.  I really don't understand "What's the point in unvoting".  The point is to not have a vote on Ash that you don't believe in.  You can always put it back, you know.
of course it doesn't make my vote less powerful, what are you talking about?? I already said that I should have unvoted before I left.  I should have. I don't get why this is scummy.

and stop saying that I didn't "follow through". I never committed to doing it, I put it forward as a possible idea. And it turned out to be a bad idea.
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liopoil

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #183 on: July 23, 2013, 11:56:51 am »

Liopoil, those objections are so weak, they didn't even look like objections to the rest of us.  And now you're talking about how bad town is and how scum probably have a good idea of who the cop is.  That is a HUGE shift from seeming like you don't care and you think it's pointless but unharmful, which is how your quotes from yesterday read.

Also, I wasn't being hyperbolic, I was exaggerating for effect in my fake quotes of you (that came after the real quote).  I'm saying that I think you're panicking way way too much.  To a degree that I think may be artificial.
that's just not true. I assumed we weren't going to do the plan, because at the time, ash was the only one in support of it! And I NEVER said it was unharmful.

"I wasn't being hyperbolic, I was exaggerating for effect"

that's being hyperbolic: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Hyperbole

I'm panicking? why would I panic as scum, the doc just claimed and people are giving me clues as to who the cop is!
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UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #184 on: July 23, 2013, 12:03:00 pm »

I'm saying that I think you're panicking way way too much.  To a degree that I think may be artificial.
I'm panicking? why would I panic as scum, the doc just claimed and people are giving me clues as to who the cop is!

Your doom and gloom about how much scum know and how bad we screwed up seems artificial, like scum would want to look more worried when they were not actually worried at all.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #185 on: July 23, 2013, 12:04:30 pm »

Having re-read nkirbit, the only thing I really thought was worth mentioning was his interaction with ashersky. From the outset this gives him some scum points since I'm treating ash as confirmed Town. I did find his "I am no cop" a little weird and contrary to the plan, although not as damning as ash did. I do disagree with nkirbit's reaction to ash's reaction to him, that just struck me as regular ash. So slight scumread on nkirbit, half based on the opinion of someone who I believe to be Town, and half for what may have been an overreaction to ash's reaction.
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UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #186 on: July 23, 2013, 12:04:43 pm »

Liopoil, those objections are so weak, they didn't even look like objections to the rest of us.  And now you're talking about how bad town is and how scum probably have a good idea of who the cop is.  That is a HUGE shift from seeming like you don't care and you think it's pointless but unharmful, which is how your quotes from yesterday read.

Also, I wasn't being hyperbolic, I was exaggerating for effect in my fake quotes of you (that came after the real quote).  I'm saying that I think you're panicking way way too much.  To a degree that I think may be artificial.
that's just not true. ... And I NEVER said it was unharmful.

You NEVER SAID IT WAS HARMFUL either.  Just that you didn't see how it could help.  Not seeing how it can help is a much much weaker objection than "scum knows who the cop is now".
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liopoil

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #187 on: July 23, 2013, 12:06:26 pm »

oh I see. well, we are in trouble though. We made a terrible mistake that could easily have been avoided in so many ways.

scum!liopoil wants to appear worried. town!liopoil is worried. I don't know how you can differenciate between them.
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liopoil

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #188 on: July 23, 2013, 12:08:37 pm »

Liopoil, those objections are so weak, they didn't even look like objections to the rest of us.  And now you're talking about how bad town is and how scum probably have a good idea of who the cop is.  That is a HUGE shift from seeming like you don't care and you think it's pointless but unharmful, which is how your quotes from yesterday read.

Also, I wasn't being hyperbolic, I was exaggerating for effect in my fake quotes of you (that came after the real quote).  I'm saying that I think you're panicking way way too much.  To a degree that I think may be artificial.
that's just not true. ... And I NEVER said it was unharmful.

You NEVER SAID IT WAS HARMFUL either.  Just that you didn't see how it could help.  Not seeing how it can help is a much much weaker objection than "scum knows who the cop is now".
I didn't say scum knows who the cop is either! and again, at the time, it seemed that there was no risk of anyone going through with the plan. No need to object when it doesn't appear to be a problem.
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UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #189 on: July 23, 2013, 12:15:40 pm »

Liopoil, knowing that something is bad for town, but doing it anyway (logging off without unvoting) is the prime reason I think you're scummy.

Liopoil has said that not unvoting was bad and he was upset at himself, but unvoting is so simple to do, and has major potential benefits if he is scum and he doesn't.

The fact that Liopoil said
what's the point in unvoting, the unique vote is already there. Sure, I should've have removed my vote before I left. I didn't think a wagon would build on him overnight, but I guess that's blitz.
Is a really weird defense to a think he already said was a mistake, and say again in the very next sentence.  Like he wants to justify not unvoting as being reasonable even though he knows it was a dumb move.  It reads to me like it was a smart move, and he didn't expect to get this much crap for it.  I think a town player would not be deviating from the self-flaggelation "I screwed up" feelings.  I think a scum player would be more indignant that it wasn't a big deal, because a scum player would be proud of himself to a certain extent.

And the fact is, not unvoting because you didn't think it would matter is terrible logic.  I don't think it would matter if I vote for EFHW, but as I have no reason to think EFHW is scum, I sure as hell am not going to do so, even if I can unvote later.  ESPECIALLY with blitz deadlines.
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liopoil

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #190 on: July 23, 2013, 12:29:26 pm »

well, I didn't think of it. I didn't leave without unvoting on purpose. sorry.

when I said "what's the point in unvoting" I am saying it within the context of unique votes, as should have been obvious my the next phrase, which isn't underlined and bolded for some reason, "the unique vote is already there".
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liopoil

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #191 on: July 23, 2013, 12:37:48 pm »

that latest post really makes me start to think that umbrage is starting to be trying too hard to find reasons to suspect me, that is, he's pushing a mislynch.
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liopoil

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #192 on: July 23, 2013, 12:49:34 pm »

Post Count (does not include pregame):

Ashersky: 39
Liopoil: 30
UoS: 28
Jimmmmm: 17
Nkirbit: 17
Sudgy: 14
EFHW: 11
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UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #193 on: July 23, 2013, 12:51:33 pm »

Well that accusation unfortunately comes at a time when I'm about to sign off for several hours (see my schedule post yesterday).

But no, I don't think I'm trying too hard, I think there is one big bright-flashing-letters reason why you're scummy, and that there are several extra things that are like pools of scummy gravy (yum).

I don't think you're scummy because you said you don't see the point of unvoting, I think you're scummy because of not unvoting and the saying you don't see the point fits better with a scum-narrative than a town-narrative.  I wouldn't ever vote someone just on that statement.

And for the record, I don't see how that can mean only in the context of unique votes, because you can't unvote a unique vote, but you sure as hell can unvote your ACTUAL VOTE that could have caused a mislynch.  Not unvoting is just as pointless as unvoting in context of unique votes: neither matters at all.

I don't like the phrasing though, but as I said, it's not my main thing.
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sudgy

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #194 on: July 23, 2013, 12:55:02 pm »

that latest post really makes me start to think that umbrage is starting to be trying too hard to find reasons to suspect me, that is, he's pushing a mislynch.

I've been thinking the same thing.  To others that have played with him, does he usually tunnel this hard?

Also, Umbrage, I thought it out, and figured out that voting everybody else now has NEGATIVE impact:

1. If we don't vote everybody else:
     A. We get someone other than Umbrage or Ash in a wagon (but me and lio aren't voting for it), then we lynch him.  Nothing bad happens.
     B. We get someone other than Umbrage or Ash in a wagon (but me and lio aren't voting for it), then we don't want to lynch him.  He has less unique votes now, so it was a good thing we didn't vote them.
     C. We get Umbrage or Ash in a wagon, we don't want to lynch them anymore, then we vote for others to increase their unique vote count.  Nothing bad happens.
2. If we do vote everybody else:
     A. Same situation, nothing bad happens.
     B. Same situation, but now he has more unique votes, then we accidentally lynch him.  This is bad.
     C. Same situation, but we already fixed it earlier.  Nothing bad happens.

So you see, we do NOT want to vote everybody else, there is a possiblity of something bad happening.


Also, random question for TA: If two people are tied for most votes and unique votes, what happens?
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liopoil

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #195 on: July 23, 2013, 01:00:06 pm »

Well that accusation unfortunately comes at a time when I'm about to sign off for several hours (see my schedule post yesterday).

But no, I don't think I'm trying too hard, I think there is one big bright-flashing-letters reason why you're scummy, and that there are several extra things that are like pools of scummy gravy (yum).

I don't think you're scummy because you said you don't see the point of unvoting, I think you're scummy because of not unvoting and the saying you don't see the point fits better with a scum-narrative than a town-narrative.  I wouldn't ever vote someone just on that statement.

And for the record, I don't see how that can mean only in the context of unique votes, because you can't unvote a unique vote, but you sure as hell can unvote your ACTUAL VOTE that could have caused a mislynch.  Not unvoting is just as pointless as unvoting in context of unique votes: neither matters at all.

I don't like the phrasing though, but as I said, it's not my main thing.
that's exactly the point. in the context of unique votes, there is no point to unvoting, hence "what's the point in unvoting". I am not saying that I was correct not to unvote at all. I should have unvoted.

that latest post really makes me start to think that umbrage is starting to be trying too hard to find reasons to suspect me, that is, he's pushing a mislynch.

I've been thinking the same thing.  To others that have played with him, does he usually tunnel this hard?

Also, Umbrage, I thought it out, and figured out that voting everybody else now has NEGATIVE impact:

--snip!--

So you see, we do NOT want to vote everybody else, there is a possiblity of something bad happening.


Also, random question for TA: If two people are tied for most votes and unique votes, what happens?
- umbrage does not have any completed games
- indeed, this is why we didn't do it
- I'm not TA, but I think it results in a no lynch.
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EFHW

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #196 on: July 23, 2013, 01:08:29 pm »

I don't think UoS is tunneling.  I think he is trying to make his points clear, as he and liopoil had several misunderstandings during that conversation which now seem cleared up. 

I'm not ready to vote liopoil.  I'm finding sudgy scummier, actually, for declining the balance unique votes plan, putting Ash at L-1, and getting on the "UoS is tunneling" wagon. 
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liopoil

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #197 on: July 23, 2013, 01:10:12 pm »

scummy: UoS, EFHW (EFHW for lurking and silly reason for being suspicious of me. Also was first to "claim" cop, which encouraged others to do so as well.)
null: Jimmmmm, Nkirbit
towny: Liopoil, Ashersky, Sudgy

reasoning behind townread on sudgy: if he's scum, he's more aware about how he uses his vote. He wouldn't unvote promptly after realizing ash was at L-1, because if he was scum he would have already realized that and either wouldn't have placed the vote, or wouldn't unvote. (remember he unvoted 11 seconds BEFORE the claim). Also, he declined my plan, something that if he's scum he knows looks suspicious. plus my gut says he's town too :)
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Twistedarcher

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #198 on: July 23, 2013, 01:12:44 pm »

Also, random question for TA: If two people are tied for most votes and unique votes, what happens?

No lynch.
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liopoil

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #199 on: July 23, 2013, 01:13:56 pm »

I don't think UoS is tunneling.  I think he is trying to make his points clear, as he and liopoil had several misunderstandings during that conversation which now seem cleared up. 

I'm not ready to vote liopoil.  I'm finding sudgy scummier, actually, for declining the balance unique votes plan, putting Ash at L-1, and getting on the "UoS is tunneling" wagon. 
declining the balance unique votes plan was the correct move, as it was a bad plan, as shown by sudgy. I showed in my other post why I think he's town for putting ash at L-1, and why in the world is finding UoS suspicious scummy?

Vote: EFHW
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