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Author Topic: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Town wins!)  (Read 12336 times)

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ashersky

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 2!)
« Reply #500 on: July 24, 2013, 10:28:49 pm »

This may be the first time I've won and survived to the end as Town and PR.
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f.ds Mafia Board Moderator

2013, 2014, 2015 Mafia Mod of the Year

Games (30): Mafia: 17, 21, 24, 31, 39, 43, 67, 72, 86 || Newbie: 7 || RMM: 6, 7, 10, 20, 22, 26, 32, 45 || Blitz: 4-7, X, 17-19, 22, 24 || BM: 14, 19

2015 f.ds Representative, World Forum Mafia Championships
2013, 2014 Mafia Player of the Year (Tie)

Town: 47 Games, 24 Wins
Scum: 22 Games, 13 Wins
11x MVP: M30, M83, ZM16, M25, M38, M61, M76, RMM5, RMM41, RMM46, M51

Eevee

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 2!)
« Reply #501 on: July 24, 2013, 10:33:20 pm »

I was following closely, good job town! Had I requested a speccy like I should have, I would have been all wrong everywhere.

Scum is found in the middle though, remember that kids!

I think ash's day 1 plan was absolutely terrible, but it did work out rather great for town so I don't know anymore.. My strongest day 1 read was ash being scum for proposing something so awful :(
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Voltaire

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 2!)
« Reply #502 on: July 24, 2013, 10:34:41 pm »

Unfortunately for scum they kinda shot themselves in the foot, but a good game all around by everyone! It was fun to follow and hopefully I'll be in time to sign up for the next blitz.  ;)
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ashersky

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 2!)
« Reply #503 on: July 24, 2013, 10:35:08 pm »

I was following closely, good job town! Had I requested a speccy like I should have, I would have been all wrong everywhere.

Scum is found in the middle though, remember that kids!

I think ash's day 1 plan was absolutely terrible, but it did work out rather great for town so I don't know anymore.. My strongest day 1 read was ash being scum for proposing something so awful :(

So much irony in that statement.
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f.ds Mafia Board Moderator

2013, 2014, 2015 Mafia Mod of the Year

Games (30): Mafia: 17, 21, 24, 31, 39, 43, 67, 72, 86 || Newbie: 7 || RMM: 6, 7, 10, 20, 22, 26, 32, 45 || Blitz: 4-7, X, 17-19, 22, 24 || BM: 14, 19

2015 f.ds Representative, World Forum Mafia Championships
2013, 2014 Mafia Player of the Year (Tie)

Town: 47 Games, 24 Wins
Scum: 22 Games, 13 Wins
11x MVP: M30, M83, ZM16, M25, M38, M61, M76, RMM5, RMM41, RMM46, M51

nkirbit

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 2!)
« Reply #504 on: July 24, 2013, 10:35:45 pm »

I was following closely, good job town! Had I requested a speccy like I should have, I would have been all wrong everywhere.

Scum is found in the middle though, remember that kids!

I think ash's day 1 plan was absolutely terrible, but it did work out rather great for town so I don't know anymore.. My strongest day 1 read was ash being scum for proposing something so awful :(

So much irony in that statement.

Haha.  Yeah.
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UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 2!)
« Reply #505 on: July 24, 2013, 10:37:40 pm »

I kind of liked Ash's plan.  I was nervous about getting in 2nd though.

I was hoping to be first on it, before EFHW jumped on it, because I thought that was a dumb place for cop to be.  Of course saying that, if something like that happened again I'd be off it.

(Or would I??????)
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UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 2!)
« Reply #506 on: July 24, 2013, 10:38:51 pm »

Question for the spectators: did you guys think I was cop?
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Eevee

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 2!)
« Reply #507 on: July 24, 2013, 10:42:23 pm »

I didn't see it, no.

But the problem with the plan as I see it: scum can 100% ignore the claims if they want, and it's as if no plan took place.

However, someone can screw up. No one did here (yay!, I was rooting for town),  but if someone did and scum was able to either reduce the pool of potential cops or outright deduce who the cop was, that would be very bad.

Introducing wifom that requires scum to screw up for it to be helpful (again, otherwise they could just ignore the claims) seems really not ideal to me, but one could really argue you did successfully wifom scum here, so go you (as in town collectively)!
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UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 2!)
« Reply #508 on: July 24, 2013, 10:56:24 pm »

Yeah, I would argue that the ideal move is for scum to ignore claims, but it's awfully tempting to try to read into them I think.  Human nature.

And yeah, I don't think it's a game-breaking, this will always work plan, but in Blitz particularly, I like things like that.
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Twistedarcher

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 2!)
« Reply #509 on: July 25, 2013, 12:19:42 am »

Spec QT: http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/pZbctMjYxdtWD
Mod QT: http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/cCzKxfNJJ6py
Mafia QT: http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/TMMHhQ3yCs5x

Sorry, I was running around, and not expecting the game to end today.

I think this format was interesting. I really liked it, and would happily play/run it again.

There's a variant where scum has a roleblocker. That may help against counterclaims, and make it more balanced.

Congrats to town!
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liopoil

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Town wins!)
« Reply #510 on: July 25, 2013, 10:54:16 am »

wow, I thought town was screwed. N1 went perfectly for town.

I maintain that the plan is terrible. It helped scum here. scum figured out that EFHW wasn't the cop. and it cannot help town.
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liopoil

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Town wins!)
« Reply #511 on: July 25, 2013, 10:54:42 am »

I don't think scum needs a roleblocker. Even this is probably slightly in favor of scum.
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UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Town wins!)
« Reply #512 on: July 25, 2013, 11:05:10 am »

Does anyone else think the super short deadline is likely to favor scum a little bit?

I mean, if we'd had more time, Ash, EFHW, and I might very well have been pushing for an nkirbit lynch that first day, had we cleared Sudgy earlier and had Liopoil had a bit more time to convince us he was town.  I mean we can't be sure that would have happened, but I know I was much less willing to move my vote even as I started having hesitations about Liopoil because those hesitations didn't come until an hour before the deadline.

I like Blitz though, it was exhilarating and I didn't talk that much more than anyone else.  But I kind of think Blitz might have some scum-favoring tendencies anyway, although the short night kind of screwed Jimmmmm and nkirbit.
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liopoil

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Town wins!)
« Reply #513 on: July 25, 2013, 11:21:19 am »

after:

5 normal games + 1 RMM + 1 bastard: I've never been lynched, woo!
6 normal games + 1 RMM + 1 bastard: I've never been misslynched...
6 normal games + 1 RMM + 1 bastard + 1 blitz: I've never been misslynched in a normal game...

I'm slipping...

(In the RMM my lover got lynched, and in the bastard I was daykilled and mail-mi got lynched, but it could just as easily have been the other way around...)
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nkirbit

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Town wins!)
« Reply #514 on: July 25, 2013, 11:26:57 am »

Does anyone else think the super short deadline is likely to favor scum a little bit?

I mean, if we'd had more time, Ash, EFHW, and I might very well have been pushing for an nkirbit lynch that first day, had we cleared Sudgy earlier and had Liopoil had a bit more time to convince us he was town.  I mean we can't be sure that would have happened, but I know I was much less willing to move my vote even as I started having hesitations about Liopoil because those hesitations didn't come until an hour before the deadline.

I like Blitz though, it was exhilarating and I didn't talk that much more than anyone else.  But I kind of think Blitz might have some scum-favoring tendencies anyway, although the short night kind of screwed Jimmmmm and nkirbit.

Nah, I don't think so.  A lot of the evidence against me wouldn't have existed in a normal game.. I certainly don't get pressure for not posting for four hours in a normal game (can you imagine..?), and I don't place a bad EFHW vote in a normal game (I was sort of forced to decide between Lio and EFHW because of the fact it was blitz and I had to make a choice, and I didn't really have a good reason to find either one scummy).

Scum don't have the time to see how things develop that they would in a normal game.  They're much more pressured to get their hands dirty, and it can be obvious the next day.  Scum have much less opportunity to sit back in blitz than they do in a normal game.

The other thing is, everything is accelerated in a blitz game.  You may say that we clear sudgy, and still have time, but keep in mind, we don't clear Sudgy until waaay later in the day in a normal game.  And while town don't have time to build a compelling case on mafia all the time, there is much less talking in blitz than a normal game.  Pretty compelling cases can be built against town players, just because saying more things leads to saying more scummy things, because some of the things a town person said can be interpreted incorrectly, and the more a townperson talks, the more chance they say something scummy.  So it's a lot harder to build a convincing case against a townperson for mafia than it is in blitz.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Town wins!)
« Reply #515 on: July 25, 2013, 11:38:24 am »

FWIW, I was seriously, seriously considering making the exact claim I made at the start of the day. Just would have been in even bigger trouble if it turned out EFHW was the Cop. I knew we were in trouble and should have just gone for it.
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UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Town wins!)
« Reply #516 on: July 25, 2013, 11:49:23 am »

Good point, nkirbit.  Yeah, I didn't think of that.  Think it's a wash then?
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UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Town wins!)
« Reply #517 on: July 25, 2013, 11:51:52 am »

So Jimmmmm: If you coming out and claiming immediately is what you think would have been the correct play for you, do you think I'd have been in a better position counterclaiming you than the other way around or not.  If not, does that mean claiming immediately was the right play, even though I was feeling like things were unnecessarily going to hell there for a moment?
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Jimmmmm

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Town wins!)
« Reply #518 on: July 25, 2013, 11:57:09 am »

So Jimmmmm: If you coming out and claiming immediately is what you think would have been the correct play for you, do you think I'd have been in a better position counterclaiming you than the other way around or not.  If not, does that mean claiming immediately was the right play, even though I was feeling like things were unnecessarily going to hell there for a moment?

I think in general being the first to claim is seen as more likely to be truthful. There's a good chance it wouldn't have helped though. I think my biggest problem was what seems to happen these days, especially in blitz games, and that's just that I didn't have enough time to play the game I would have liked to have played.
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UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Town wins!)
« Reply #519 on: July 25, 2013, 12:23:51 pm »

If our positions were reversed and you were the cop, would you have claimed the scumteam?
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EFHW

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Town wins!)
« Reply #520 on: July 25, 2013, 04:09:14 pm »

UoS - you didn't mess up!  You were just surprised to be counterclaimed.  But your claim was absolutely the right thing to do.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Town wins!)
« Reply #521 on: July 25, 2013, 09:41:53 pm »

If our positions were reversed and you were the cop, would you have claimed the scumteam?

Yeah I think so. Or maybe I would have waited for a bit to see if we could get there without my needing to claim. But I probably would have claimed.
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mail-mi

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #522 on: July 27, 2013, 07:01:37 pm »

town to scum:

EFHW
UoS
Jimmmmm (pretty much null)
nkirbit
sudgy
ashersky
liopoil

I could go for a UoS lynch, if there is sufficient support for it and enough people are online in the next half hour...
Loving how liopoil put himself as scummiest.
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'And what is it that ye shall hope for? Behold I say unto you that ye shall have hope through the atonement of Christ and the power of his resurrection, to be raised unto life eternal, and this because of your faith in him according to the promise." - Moroni 7:41, the Book of Mormon

liopoil

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Town wins!)
« Reply #523 on: July 27, 2013, 07:11:12 pm »

oh wow. scum to town
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