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Author Topic: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Town wins!)  (Read 12333 times)

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Twistedarcher

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ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Town wins!)
« on: July 12, 2013, 11:01:25 am »

Welcome to Blitz Mafia 15: Time for Something Completely Different

This game will use the Bird_7p setup.

2 Mafia Goons
3 Vanilla Townies
1 Macho Cop
1 Doctor

Mechanics
This game uses 24 hour days, and 12 hour nights.
Mafia have nightchat.
The Macho Cop is unable to be protected from the nightkill.

Players
1. Jimmmm Mafia Goon, Lynched D2.
2. EFHW VT
3. Liopoil VT, Lynched D1.
4. Sudgy VT, Killed N1.
5. Nkirbit Mafia Goon, Lynched D3.
6. UmbrageofSnow Macho Cop
7. AsherskyDoctor


Backup Mods:
Voltaire

Day Starts:
D1 Start
D2 Start
 

Mafia Ruleset Changes in RED
Game Rules:

General Gameplay and Etiquette:
1. You may not quote private Moderator-supplied information (either real or fabricated) of any kind.  Paraphrasing (for role claims, etc.) is acceptable.
2. There is to be NO personal communication outside of the forum postings unless your role PM specifically allows it.  Mafia members may communicate at night and during the confirmation stage.
3. Roles with actions will not be able to submit an action during the confirmation stage
4. Players with a night action may choose to submit their action during the previous day, in case they will not be around during the night phase. They may later change this action up until the night deadline.
5. Any player with an action may instead submit a “No Action” PM to let the Mod know that you do not want to perform your expected action that Night phase.

Voting, Deadlines, and Player Death:
1.Whomever has the most votes currently on them at lynch deadline is lynched.
1b. If there is a tie at deadline, the player with the most "unique" votes will be lynched. "Unique" votes are counted by the mods concurrently with live votes, and reflect the number of different voters who have voted for that player.

2. Once you have reached a simple majority no further unvoting will change someone’s fate.  Further votes will also be ignored.
3. Once a player is lynched the game enters twilight until I post a death scene; all players including the one who was lynched may continue to post during twilight.
4. Please submit votes as: Vote: PlayerName.  Votes will NOT be counted if they are not bold or do not follow this syntax!  Obvious abbreviations or nicknames will be counted so long as they are unambiguous.
5. Please submit vote revocations as either Unvote: PlayerName or Unvote. Unvotes are not necessary before changing votes.
6. You may Vote: No Lynch - a simple majority of these vote types are required to send the game to Night phase without a lynch.
7. This game will have 24 HOUR deadlines.  If a player or No Lynch does not have a simple majority at deadline, the player with most votes currently on them will be lynched, and the game will go into the next night.
8. This game will have 12 HOUR nights. If a player does not have his or her night actions in after 12 hours, a random target will be selected for him or her.
9. Once you are killed (either via lynch or kill) you may no longer post. This means that you do not even get a “Bah” post. The dead in this game are silent.
10. Do not edit or delete posts.  We don't want some players having more information than others.  If you want to clarify posts, feel free to double post.

Miscellaneous/Mechanics:
1. Bold, color text is reserved for the Mod.  No invisible/small text is allowed, nor is cryptography.
2. If you have an issue/problem with the game, please PM the Mod privately.  Do not post issues/complaints in the game thread.
3. The Mod may make mistakes - please point out any mistakes gently.  Mistakes will be corrected where possible, but sometimes mistakes are made that cannot be reversed.  These will stand as final to be commiserated over after the game.
4. Please bold all requests to the Mod so that they don’t get missed.
5. Rule violations will be dealt with according to their severity, up to and including a Modkill.

The Golden Rule:

Please remember that this is a game and your main objective is to have fun! Be considerate of each other, don’t get personal, and enjoy the game. Most or all of you have taken the Civility pledge, if you haven't I suggest you do.

Helpful Links:

« Last Edit: July 25, 2013, 12:28:43 am by Twistedarcher »
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Jimmmmm

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Signups open!)
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2013, 11:06:25 am »

/in with the following disclaimer:

I am quite often busy, and there may well be non-insignificant stretched of time in which I won't be able to post. Lurking is NEVER my plan as scum, so if I'm not posting a lot, you can be sure it has nothing to do with my alignment. If, once the start date is confirmed, I feel like it is relatively likely that I will be lynched for lurking, I will /out before the game starts.
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yuma

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Signups open!)
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2013, 11:20:47 am »

/tag at least.

I do really want to play this setup, but will depend on my 7/7 schedule and if I am off or not that week. Otherwise it just isn't feasible. I will likely be the last player to /in if it looks like we are about full and we are playing at a time that I can handle. If not, I'll just watch.
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Voltaire

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Signups open!)
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2013, 11:29:31 am »

/tag.

Small chance I'd play since it's so fast, but I don't want to distract from Clue. I'd happily backup mod if you need one.
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EFHW

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Signups open!)
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2013, 12:39:21 pm »

/in
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Twistedarcher

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Signups open!)
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2013, 01:27:14 pm »

Thanks for the offer, Voltaire. I'd rather get the game filled with players rather than co-mods, but I'll let you know if I need your help :)
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mail-mi

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Signups open!)
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2013, 01:39:21 pm »

/tag
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'And what is it that ye shall hope for? Behold I say unto you that ye shall have hope through the atonement of Christ and the power of his resurrection, to be raised unto life eternal, and this because of your faith in him according to the promise." - Moroni 7:41, the Book of Mormon

liopoil

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Signups open!)
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2013, 04:52:42 pm »

/in
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shraeye

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Signups open!)
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2013, 03:27:48 pm »

could be in.  Depends on factors.
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Eevee

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Signups open!)
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2013, 08:40:06 am »

Same than shraeye, the most important factor being the starting day.
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Twistedarcher

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Signups open!)
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2013, 12:22:58 pm »

What day works for you all? If we get a time that works for yuma/shraeye/Eevee, I'd be more than happy to start then.
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UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Signups open!)
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2013, 01:38:32 pm »

If you pick a date, I could possibly play, if that's alright.

Depends on the day, but in the near future the odds should be good.
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Archetype

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Signups open!)
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2013, 01:41:05 pm »

Depending on the date, I could play.

Not next week, but the week after is good for me.
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Twistedarcher

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Signups open!)
« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2013, 01:41:34 pm »

Here's an idea: all you people who are saying "Depends on the date", post what dates would work for you!
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Archetype

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Signups open!)
« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2013, 01:56:23 pm »

Not next week, but the week after is good for me.
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yuma

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Signups open!)
« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2013, 11:11:48 pm »

like I mentioned in the VLA thread I am leaving on a vacation Sunday through Saturday and then will be back on my 7 on schedule.... So I won't be able to participate in this game unless it doesn't start for like... ~ 3 weeks... obviously I expect the game to be full by then, so I'll just do the stats...

Sorry.
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Twistedarcher

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Signups open!)
« Reply #16 on: July 18, 2013, 12:20:15 am »

No problem! Enjoy the vacation. If you have time for mafia once the baby's arrived I'd be happy to run this setup again, since I know you wanted to play it.
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Twistedarcher

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Signups open!)
« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2013, 10:36:00 pm »

I would like to get this started sometime in the next week, so sign up people!
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sudgy

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Signups open!)
« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2013, 10:42:08 pm »

I'll /in, and I'll /out if it doesn't start soon enough.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

nkirbit

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Signups open!)
« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2013, 11:46:09 pm »

I'm in.
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UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Signups open!)
« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2013, 11:48:39 pm »

You know what?
/in

Hopefully in a fast game like this, my level of chatter per day won't be so out of place.
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Twistedarcher

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One more! Signup, and I'll get PMs out tonight!
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UmbrageOfSnow

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Just in time to keep us all amused over Yuma's night/vacation!
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ashersky

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/hammer
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f.ds Mafia Board Moderator

2013, 2014, 2015 Mafia Mod of the Year

Games (30): Mafia: 17, 21, 24, 31, 39, 43, 67, 72, 86 || Newbie: 7 || RMM: 6, 7, 10, 20, 22, 26, 32, 45 || Blitz: 4-7, X, 17-19, 22, 24 || BM: 14, 19

2015 f.ds Representative, World Forum Mafia Championships
2013, 2014 Mafia Player of the Year (Tie)

Town: 47 Games, 24 Wins
Scum: 22 Games, 13 Wins
11x MVP: M30, M83, ZM16, M25, M38, M61, M76, RMM5, RMM41, RMM46, M51

ashersky

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One more! Signup, and I'll get PMs out tonight!

Lies.  I've received no PM.
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f.ds Mafia Board Moderator

2013, 2014, 2015 Mafia Mod of the Year

Games (30): Mafia: 17, 21, 24, 31, 39, 43, 67, 72, 86 || Newbie: 7 || RMM: 6, 7, 10, 20, 22, 26, 32, 45 || Blitz: 4-7, X, 17-19, 22, 24 || BM: 14, 19

2015 f.ds Representative, World Forum Mafia Championships
2013, 2014 Mafia Player of the Year (Tie)

Town: 47 Games, 24 Wins
Scum: 22 Games, 13 Wins
11x MVP: M30, M83, ZM16, M25, M38, M61, M76, RMM5, RMM41, RMM46, M51

Twistedarcher

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Thread Locked!

PMs are going out shortly. Please confirm once you get yours. The game will start sometime Monday, assuming everyone confirms.

If anyone would like to help moderate, I would appreciate your help.

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Twistedarcher

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Confirmation Stage)
« Reply #26 on: July 22, 2013, 12:58:26 am »

PMs sent. Please confirm!
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Twistedarcher

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Confirmation Stage)
« Reply #27 on: July 22, 2013, 01:56:39 pm »

The game will start at 8 pm.
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Twistedarcher

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #28 on: July 22, 2013, 07:58:32 pm »

The townspeople were in shock when they heard the news. A murder? In their lovely little village? Who would dare do such a wicked deed?

Scarcely believing the news, the townspeople rushed to the house of Twistedarcher, one by one. Jimmmm gasped when he saw the body, while EFHW broke down into tears.

"Who could do this?" Liopoil asked out loud. "Such an evil thing to do, to kill an innocent townsperson! It must have taken someone evil to do such a thing!"

Sudgy looked around the house, seeing if he could find any evidence. However, it was Nkirbit who called out first, noticing bloody fingerprints on the door.

After everyone inspected the fingerprints, UmbrageofSnow noticed something. "Hey, there's TWO sets of fingerprints here! That means...the murderer wasn't alone! There's two people out there!"

Everyone looked around at one another. Ashersky immediately blurted out, "It wasn't me! Don't look here!"

The door to the house was barred. The townspeople were determined not to leave until they figured out who was a simple Town Member , and who had been a member of the Mafia all along!





Thread unlocked!! Day 1 begins!


Vote Count 1.1

Not voting (7): Jimmmm, EFHW, Liopoil, Sudgy, Nkirbit, UmbrageofSnow, Ashersky

With 7 players alive, it takes 4 to lynch
Deadline is 10 pm forum time on Tuesday, July 23rd.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2013, 11:19:30 pm by Twistedarcher »
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sudgy

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #29 on: July 22, 2013, 07:59:45 pm »

First!  Now to read the post...
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

sudgy

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #30 on: July 22, 2013, 08:01:32 pm »

Why can't we inspect everybody's fingerprints and see which is the killer's?  Do we all have un-takeoffable gloves or something?

Alright, Vote: UmbrageofSnow for having never played with him before.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

liopoil

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #31 on: July 22, 2013, 08:07:44 pm »

Ashersky immediately blurted out, "It wasn't me! Don't look here!"
Vote: Ashersky
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liopoil

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #32 on: July 22, 2013, 08:11:49 pm »

7 people is not very many. to win, we MUST lynch both scum before mislynching twice, unless our doc stops the kill TWICE. but we've got some PRs to help us!

our cop is super-awesome. they should investigate scum and report back so we can win and stuff.
our doc isn't too powerful. If he manages to block the kill once, all we get is an extra night of investigations after no lynch. If he blocks it twice we get an extra mislynch, which is awesome, but unlikely. Plus he can only save VTs, not the cop.
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nkirbit

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #33 on: July 22, 2013, 08:14:05 pm »

Hi guys!

Not much theory talking to do here, really.  No plans to come up with.  Just catch scum!  Nice and simple!
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ashersky

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #34 on: July 22, 2013, 08:14:22 pm »

Okay, I have a plan!
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f.ds Mafia Board Moderator

2013, 2014, 2015 Mafia Mod of the Year

Games (30): Mafia: 17, 21, 24, 31, 39, 43, 67, 72, 86 || Newbie: 7 || RMM: 6, 7, 10, 20, 22, 26, 32, 45 || Blitz: 4-7, X, 17-19, 22, 24 || BM: 14, 19

2015 f.ds Representative, World Forum Mafia Championships
2013, 2014 Mafia Player of the Year (Tie)

Town: 47 Games, 24 Wins
Scum: 22 Games, 13 Wins
11x MVP: M30, M83, ZM16, M25, M38, M61, M76, RMM5, RMM41, RMM46, M51

liopoil

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #35 on: July 22, 2013, 08:15:29 pm »

7 people is not very many. to win, we MUST lynch both scum before mislynching twice, unless our doc stops the kill TWICE. but we've got some PRs to help us!

our cop is super-awesome. they should investigate scum and report back so we can win and stuff.
our doc isn't too powerful. If he manages to block the kill once, all we get is an extra night of investigations after no lynch. If he blocks it twice we get an extra mislynch, which is awesome, but unlikely. Plus he can only save VTs, not the cop.
actually, the main utility of our doc is as a named townie I think. that is, the only way we can mislynch him is if scum fakeclaims.
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sudgy

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #36 on: July 22, 2013, 08:15:54 pm »

Days will still end when a majority vote happens, right?
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

nkirbit

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #37 on: July 22, 2013, 08:16:50 pm »

Okay, I have a plan!

Oh boy oh boy oh boy!  Is this one of those plans you share?
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Twistedarcher

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #38 on: July 22, 2013, 08:17:43 pm »

Days will still end when a majority vote happens, right?

Correct.
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liopoil

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #39 on: July 22, 2013, 08:18:20 pm »

crap, just realized... this game uses unique votes as a tiebreaker!!! that means... RVS is bad! and I RVSed!! sudgy did too. that could be a problem...
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ashersky

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #40 on: July 22, 2013, 08:18:46 pm »

I think three people should claim cop.

Here's why:

1.  We have a cop, but he's unprotectable.  Mafia wants to kill the Cop.  They have a 1/5 chance of randomly catching him.
2.  We have a doctor, but he can't protect the cop.  Mafia kind of cares, but not really.  The doctor can protect 3/6 other players, so a 50% chance of choosing someone protectable.

I think we want to WIFOM the heck out of mafia, who have a pretty sweet situation here.  2/7 is like starting off a regular game on D3.  They're trying to get us to lylo or worse as quickly as we can.

3 claimed cops basically forces mafia to kill among them.  Why?  Did the real cop claim in that 3?  We don't know.  That's the point.  I don't want anyone to suggest if the real cop should claim among three or not.  Did scum claim among the three?  Maybe.  Maybe not.

I think three players should claim to be the cop.  Then we should proceed normally.  Night actions should be taken according to the PRs' preferences.  But the 3 cop claims will add necessary WIFOM to the mafia decision, which will help town.
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f.ds Mafia Board Moderator

2013, 2014, 2015 Mafia Mod of the Year

Games (30): Mafia: 17, 21, 24, 31, 39, 43, 67, 72, 86 || Newbie: 7 || RMM: 6, 7, 10, 20, 22, 26, 32, 45 || Blitz: 4-7, X, 17-19, 22, 24 || BM: 14, 19

2015 f.ds Representative, World Forum Mafia Championships
2013, 2014 Mafia Player of the Year (Tie)

Town: 47 Games, 24 Wins
Scum: 22 Games, 13 Wins
11x MVP: M30, M83, ZM16, M25, M38, M61, M76, RMM5, RMM41, RMM46, M51

ashersky

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #41 on: July 22, 2013, 08:20:52 pm »

7 people is not very many. to win, we MUST lynch both scum before mislynching twice, unless our doc stops the kill TWICE. but we've got some PRs to help us!

our cop is super-awesome. they should investigate scum and report back so we can win and stuff.
our doc isn't too powerful. If he manages to block the kill once, all we get is an extra night of investigations after no lynch. If he blocks it twice we get an extra mislynch, which is awesome, but unlikely. Plus he can only save VTs, not the cop.
actually, the main utility of our doc is as a named townie I think. that is, the only way we can mislynch him is if scum fakeclaims.

I think a scum fakeclaim is stupid, since I'd trade the Doc for a scum lynch any day of the week.

In fact, as an alternative to my plan: the Doctor could claim right away.  Scum would have to decide between killing the Doctor N1 or trying to hit the cop out of the other 4.  That helps scum in that they have a 25% chance of hitting the cop, instead of 20%.  But do they risk leaving the Doctor around as an IC?  I mean, all other townies go from 2/6 scum search to a 2/5, which is pretty great.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #42 on: July 22, 2013, 08:21:37 pm »

wait, I don't get it... how does this lower the chances of mafia killing the cop? won't they still have a 1/5 chance? (actually, that's only if we lynch scum today, it's a 1/4 chance if we don't). I mean, the claims won't mean anything...
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #43 on: July 22, 2013, 08:21:55 pm »

crap, just realized... this game uses unique votes as a tiebreaker!!! that means... RVS is bad! and I RVSed!! sudgy did too. that could be a problem...

Wait, what counts as a unique vote?
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #44 on: July 22, 2013, 08:23:18 pm »

crap, just realized... this game uses unique votes as a tiebreaker!!! that means... RVS is bad! and I RVSed!! sudgy did too. that could be a problem...

Wait, what counts as a unique vote?
if two players have the same number of votes at the deadline, but one has two people who voted for them but later moved their vote, and the other only has one player who unvoted, then the one with two people gets lynched.

So this means that we shouldn't vote for people unless we want to lynch them.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #45 on: July 22, 2013, 08:23:43 pm »

The doctor shouldn't claim unless he's about to be lynched.  Scum could just kill the Doc right away, then goodbye him.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #46 on: July 22, 2013, 08:23:54 pm »

wait, I don't get it... how does this lower the chances of mafia killing the cop? won't they still have a 1/5 chance? (actually, that's only if we lynch scum today, it's a 1/4 chance if we don't). I mean, the claims won't mean anything...

Good point on who we lynch today affecting my numbers.

The point is two-fold: 1) is intentional WIFOM to actually make it harder for scum to find the cop, and 2) is to force scum into making a decision early on, and on D1, when they can't discuss what to do.  Does scum join the 3 cop claims, to reduce the numbers there? 

Also, it creates discussion amongst us, and it is something to talk about which I think will help us scumhunt, something that's harder in blitz.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #47 on: July 22, 2013, 08:23:57 pm »

Quote
3 claimed cops basically forces mafia to kill among them.  Why?  Did the real cop claim in that 3?  We don't know.

If scum don't know if the real cop is in there, how does it make them kill among the three?

I don't see how this plan works at all.  Scum know about the plan, so they can just choose to ignore the claims entirely.

In fact, scum shouldn't kill within those three, because the doctor is going to protect within those three?  Does that mean the doctor should protect outside those three?  So many layers of decisions!
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #48 on: July 22, 2013, 08:24:29 pm »

The doctor shouldn't claim unless he's about to be lynched.  Scum could just kill the Doc right away, then goodbye him.

My point is that if the Doctor claims early, it reduces the pool of possibly scum in exchange for probably dying N1.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #49 on: July 22, 2013, 08:25:21 pm »

doctor shouldn't claim. The doctor is functionally IC because he won't be lynched. by claiming we give scum a better chance of killing the cop.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #50 on: July 22, 2013, 08:26:18 pm »

Why make scum WIFOM when we could just not claim at all and make them have no idea whatsoever of who to kill?
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #51 on: July 22, 2013, 08:27:43 pm »

I don't really see why the claims mean anything. The people aren't actually saying that they're the cop. scum can just ignore the claims.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #52 on: July 22, 2013, 08:28:06 pm »

7 people is not very many. to win, we MUST lynch both scum before mislynching twice, unless our doc stops the kill TWICE. but we've got some PRs to help us!

our cop is super-awesome. they should investigate scum and report back so we can win and stuff.
our doc isn't too powerful. If he manages to block the kill once, all we get is an extra night of investigations after no lynch. If he blocks it twice we get an extra mislynch, which is awesome, but unlikely. Plus he can only save VTs, not the cop.
actually, the main utility of our doc is as a named townie I think. that is, the only way we can mislynch him is if scum fakeclaims.

I think a scum fakeclaim is stupid, since I'd trade the Doc for a scum lynch any day of the week.

In fact, as an alternative to my plan: the Doctor could claim right away.  Scum would have to decide between killing the Doctor N1 or trying to hit the cop out of the other 4.  That helps scum in that they have a 25% chance of hitting the cop, instead of 20%.  But do they risk leaving the Doctor around as an IC?  I mean, all other townies go from 2/6 scum search to a 2/5, which is pretty great.

This is interesting.  The doctor has marginal utility at one save, and great utility at two saves, but is it realistic for him to get two saves?  An IC might be better.  And he's slightly better than an IC.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #53 on: July 22, 2013, 08:28:33 pm »

I don't really see why the claims mean anything. The people aren't actually saying that they're the cop. scum can just ignore the claims.

But can they?  What if the real cop is amongst the three?  We're also WIFOMingly reducing the number of mistargets for the Doc.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #54 on: July 22, 2013, 08:29:03 pm »

7 people is not very many. to win, we MUST lynch both scum before mislynching twice, unless our doc stops the kill TWICE. but we've got some PRs to help us!

our cop is super-awesome. they should investigate scum and report back so we can win and stuff.
our doc isn't too powerful. If he manages to block the kill once, all we get is an extra night of investigations after no lynch. If he blocks it twice we get an extra mislynch, which is awesome, but unlikely. Plus he can only save VTs, not the cop.
actually, the main utility of our doc is as a named townie I think. that is, the only way we can mislynch him is if scum fakeclaims.

I think a scum fakeclaim is stupid, since I'd trade the Doc for a scum lynch any day of the week.

In fact, as an alternative to my plan: the Doctor could claim right away.  Scum would have to decide between killing the Doctor N1 or trying to hit the cop out of the other 4.  That helps scum in that they have a 25% chance of hitting the cop, instead of 20%.  But do they risk leaving the Doctor around as an IC?  I mean, all other townies go from 2/6 scum search to a 2/5, which is pretty great.

This is interesting.  The doctor has marginal utility at one save, and great utility at two saves, but is it realistic for him to get two saves?  An IC might be better.  And he's slightly better than an IC.

But scum could fakeclaim...
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #55 on: July 22, 2013, 08:30:16 pm »

doctor shouldn't claim. The doctor is functionally IC because he won't be lynched. by claiming we give scum a better chance of killing the cop.

Oh, this is true.  If the doctor is about to get lynched, claiming doctor is pretty good in that spot.  Either there's no counterclaim, at which point we get our IC, or there is, and we either immediately catch scum or at worse trade the doctor for a scum, which is not a horrible trade (although not as good as it is in a normal game).
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #56 on: July 22, 2013, 08:30:34 pm »

7 people is not very many. to win, we MUST lynch both scum before mislynching twice, unless our doc stops the kill TWICE. but we've got some PRs to help us!

our cop is super-awesome. they should investigate scum and report back so we can win and stuff.
our doc isn't too powerful. If he manages to block the kill once, all we get is an extra night of investigations after no lynch. If he blocks it twice we get an extra mislynch, which is awesome, but unlikely. Plus he can only save VTs, not the cop.
actually, the main utility of our doc is as a named townie I think. that is, the only way we can mislynch him is if scum fakeclaims.

I think a scum fakeclaim is stupid, since I'd trade the Doc for a scum lynch any day of the week.

In fact, as an alternative to my plan: the Doctor could claim right away.  Scum would have to decide between killing the Doctor N1 or trying to hit the cop out of the other 4.  That helps scum in that they have a 25% chance of hitting the cop, instead of 20%.  But do they risk leaving the Doctor around as an IC?  I mean, all other townies go from 2/6 scum search to a 2/5, which is pretty great.

This is interesting.  The doctor has marginal utility at one save, and great utility at two saves, but is it realistic for him to get two saves?  An IC might be better.  And he's slightly better than an IC.

But scum could fakeclaim...

And the real doc counterclaims, we lynch one, then the other.  The trade is worth it.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #57 on: July 22, 2013, 08:31:33 pm »

doctor shouldn't claim. The doctor is functionally IC because he won't be lynched. by claiming we give scum a better chance of killing the cop.

Oh, this is true.  If the doctor is about to get lynched, claiming doctor is pretty good in that spot.  Either there's no counterclaim, at which point we get our IC, or there is, and we either immediately catch scum or at worse trade the doctor for a scum, which is not a horrible trade (although not as good as it is in a normal game).

The issue with this is, the game is blitz.  If we waste the day getting the Doctor close to lynching, then the claim, then the backtrack...who do we lynch next?

And depending on unique votes, we could lynch the doctor anyway, without wanting to.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #58 on: July 22, 2013, 08:33:34 pm »

Vote Count 1.2

UmbrageofSnow (1, u1): Sudgy
Ashersky (1, u1): Liopoil

Not voting (5): Jimmmm, EFHW, Nkirbit, UmbrageofSnow, Ashersky

With 7 players alive, it takes 4 to lynch
Deadline is 10 pm forum time on Tuesday, July 23rd.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2013, 11:19:47 pm by Twistedarcher »
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #59 on: July 22, 2013, 08:34:30 pm »

because of the blitz setting, we should:

-get someone close to a lynch well before the deadline.
-have the doctor claim before there's an intent to hammer.

it only takes 4 to lynch, so I think claiming doctor/not doctor at L-1 is good, then only claiming cop/VT once it's clear that the lynch WILL go through otherwise.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #60 on: July 22, 2013, 08:36:06 pm »

Vote Count 1.2

UmbrageofSnow (1, u1): Sudgy
Ashersky (1, u1): Liopoil

Not voting (5): Jimmmm, EFHW, Nkirbit, UmbrageofSnow, Ashersky

With 7 players alive, it takes 4 to lynch
Deadline is 8 pm forum time on Tuesday, July 23rd.

hmmm. I have a plan:

what if sudgy and I both vote for every single player except ourself, to balance the unique votes on ash and umbrage that shouldn't really be there?
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #61 on: July 22, 2013, 08:37:23 pm »

because of the blitz setting, we should:

-get someone close to a lynch well before the deadline.
-have the doctor claim before there's an intent to hammer.

it only takes 4 to lynch, so I think claiming doctor/not doctor at L-1 is good, then only claiming cop/VT once it's clear that the lynch WILL go through otherwise.

I dislike having set procedures for how to claim when under pressure, since it makes it easier for scum to fakeclaim.  We should try and use the timing of the claim to help us find out whether it's a true claim or not.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #62 on: July 22, 2013, 08:38:12 pm »

Vote Count 1.2

UmbrageofSnow (1, u1): Sudgy
Ashersky (1, u1): Liopoil

Not voting (5): Jimmmm, EFHW, Nkirbit, UmbrageofSnow, Ashersky

With 7 players alive, it takes 4 to lynch
Deadline is 8 pm forum time on Tuesday, July 23rd.

hmmm. I have a plan:

what if sudgy and I both vote for every single player except ourself, to balance the unique votes on ash and umbrage that shouldn't really be there?

With an unvote at the end?  That removes both of your powers for unique vote manipulation.  Towny suggestion, I think.



Strongest scum reads at this point are Jimmmmm and EFHW.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #63 on: July 22, 2013, 08:38:41 pm »

because of the blitz setting, we should:

-get someone close to a lynch well before the deadline.
-have the doctor claim before there's an intent to hammer.

it only takes 4 to lynch, so I think claiming doctor/not doctor at L-1 is good, then only claiming cop/VT once it's clear that the lynch WILL go through otherwise.

I dislike having set procedures for how to claim when under pressure, since it makes it easier for scum to fakeclaim.  We should try and use the timing of the claim to help us find out whether it's a true claim or not.
okay, that's fair. But in general - the doc should claim at a time that gives us enough time to find a decent alternative.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #64 on: July 22, 2013, 08:40:07 pm »

because of the blitz setting, we should:

-get someone close to a lynch well before the deadline.
-have the doctor claim before there's an intent to hammer.

it only takes 4 to lynch, so I think claiming doctor/not doctor at L-1 is good, then only claiming cop/VT once it's clear that the lynch WILL go through otherwise.

I dislike having set procedures for how to claim when under pressure, since it makes it easier for scum to fakeclaim.  We should try and use the timing of the claim to help us find out whether it's a true claim or not.

The utility of fake claims in this set-up are predicated on how useful it is for scum to give up a partner in exchange for a PR.

With a 2-man team, losing a partner is bad news bears.  It's only worth it, maaaaybe, to get the Cop, not the Doctor.  I'd be wary of Cop fake claims.

In either case, counterclaims will happen if they fake claim, and we've got one scum dead.  I'm okay with that.  I just think scum is much more likely to claim VT if NOT under duress, and will absolutely fake claim if we're about to lynch them to get info for their partner.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #65 on: July 22, 2013, 08:51:04 pm »

Post Count!

1. Jimmmm - 0 (1)
2. EFHW - 0 (1)
3. Liopoil - 11 (1)
4. Sudgy - 7 (1)
5. Nkirbit - 6 (1)
6. UmbrageofSnow - 0 (3)
7. Ashersky - 11 (2)
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #66 on: July 22, 2013, 08:52:01 pm »

In parentheses are pre-game posts.

Jimmmm/EFHW/UoS are all hardcore lurking.  No posts yet.

Lio is posting more than his usual self, but townread so far on what he's said.

sudgy/nkirbit look fine so far activity and content-wise.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #67 on: July 22, 2013, 08:55:46 pm »

Strongest scum reads at this point are Jimmmmm and EFHW.

Why not UoS?  These aren't serious reads (I hope), but what was your reasoning for leaving him out?
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #68 on: July 22, 2013, 08:57:17 pm »

Lio is posting more than his usual self
don't really think this is true... I'm usually on the upper-half of post counts. I was the highest town-aligned poster in mean girls, I think I was the most active while I was alive in bankers+S&N, and didn't exactly lurk through my other 3 completed games either.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #69 on: July 22, 2013, 08:57:51 pm »

Strongest scum reads at this point are Jimmmmm and EFHW.

Why not UoS?  These aren't serious reads (I hope), but what was your reasoning for leaving him out?

Missed his existence.  He's in there now.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #70 on: July 22, 2013, 08:58:36 pm »

Lio is posting more than his usual self
don't really think this is true... I'm usually on the upper-half of post counts. I was the highest town-aligned poster in mean girls, I think I was the most active while I was alive in bankers+S&N, and didn't exactly lurk through my other 3 completed games either.

Really?  I guess I was thinking about an ongoing game or something.  Still, you are in the town half of my reads anyway, and your unique vote thing was towny to suggest.

Sudgy is gaining scum points for not chiming in/agreeing.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #71 on: July 22, 2013, 08:59:20 pm »

Vote Count 1.2

UmbrageofSnow (1, u1): Sudgy
Ashersky (1, u1): Liopoil

Not voting (5): Jimmmm, EFHW, Nkirbit, UmbrageofSnow, Ashersky

With 7 players alive, it takes 4 to lynch
Deadline is 8 pm forum time on Tuesday, July 23rd.


Also, we are 1 hour past deadline already...who got lynched?
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #72 on: July 22, 2013, 09:01:14 pm »

Sudgy is gaining scum points for not chiming in/agreeing.
well, he's offline right now... unless he's hidden.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #73 on: July 22, 2013, 09:04:12 pm »

Have you given up on your three cop plan, Ash?
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #74 on: July 22, 2013, 09:09:04 pm »

Have you given up on your three cop plan, Ash?

No.  I think it is still worthwhile.  I mean, as others may have pointed out, at the very worst, it does absolutely nothing.

3 players claiming cop early messed with scum heads more than town reads.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #75 on: July 22, 2013, 09:17:56 pm »

Lio is posting more than his usual self
don't really think this is true... I'm usually on the upper-half of post counts. I was the highest town-aligned poster in mean girls, I think I was the most active while I was alive in bankers+S&N, and didn't exactly lurk through my other 3 completed games either.

Really?  I guess I was thinking about an ongoing game or something.  Still, you are in the town half of my reads anyway, and your unique vote thing was towny to suggest.

Sudgy is gaining scum points for not chiming in/agreeing.

Yay, when I'm not on I get more scum points!  My plan is working perfectly!


My highest scumread at the moment is ash, for proposing a random plan (I've heard he does this in town games though too), saying his major scumreads are all the people who haven't posted a single bit, and for randomly giving me scum points.

Have you given up on your three cop plan, Ash?

No.  I think it is still worthwhile.  I mean, as others may have pointed out, at the very worst, it does absolutely nothing.

3 players claiming cop early messed with scum heads more than town reads.

What is this referencing?
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #76 on: July 22, 2013, 09:22:20 pm »

messed should be messes
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #77 on: July 22, 2013, 09:23:14 pm »

Lio is posting more than his usual self
don't really think this is true... I'm usually on the upper-half of post counts. I was the highest town-aligned poster in mean girls, I think I was the most active while I was alive in bankers+S&N, and didn't exactly lurk through my other 3 completed games either.

Really?  I guess I was thinking about an ongoing game or something.  Still, you are in the town half of my reads anyway, and your unique vote thing was towny to suggest.

Sudgy is gaining scum points for not chiming in/agreeing.

Yay, when I'm not on I get more scum points!  My plan is working perfectly!
but are you on board for my plan?
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #78 on: July 22, 2013, 09:23:32 pm »

Lio is posting more than his usual self
don't really think this is true... I'm usually on the upper-half of post counts. I was the highest town-aligned poster in mean girls, I think I was the most active while I was alive in bankers+S&N, and didn't exactly lurk through my other 3 completed games either.

Really?  I guess I was thinking about an ongoing game or something.  Still, you are in the town half of my reads anyway, and your unique vote thing was towny to suggest.

Sudgy is gaining scum points for not chiming in/agreeing.

Yay, when I'm not on I get more scum points!  My plan is working perfectly!


My highest scumread at the moment is ash, for proposing a random plan (I've heard he does this in town games though too), saying his major scumreads are all the people who haven't posted a single bit, and for randomly giving me scum points.


Sudgy, we have very little to go on, so I'm laying out reads based on what there is.  Lurking in blitz is bad.  So that's that.

As for your scum points, it has nothing to do with not being online and everything to do with not responding to liopoil's plan.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #79 on: July 22, 2013, 09:26:48 pm »

Lio is posting more than his usual self
don't really think this is true... I'm usually on the upper-half of post counts. I was the highest town-aligned poster in mean girls, I think I was the most active while I was alive in bankers+S&N, and didn't exactly lurk through my other 3 completed games either.

Really?  I guess I was thinking about an ongoing game or something.  Still, you are in the town half of my reads anyway, and your unique vote thing was towny to suggest.

Sudgy is gaining scum points for not chiming in/agreeing.

Yay, when I'm not on I get more scum points!  My plan is working perfectly!
but are you on board for my plan?

If it gets close to the deadline, we could change our votes to change the uniqueness of them.  I don't think it's that important.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #80 on: July 22, 2013, 09:28:02 pm »

Lio is posting more than his usual self
don't really think this is true... I'm usually on the upper-half of post counts. I was the highest town-aligned poster in mean girls, I think I was the most active while I was alive in bankers+S&N, and didn't exactly lurk through my other 3 completed games either.

Really?  I guess I was thinking about an ongoing game or something.  Still, you are in the town half of my reads anyway, and your unique vote thing was towny to suggest.

Sudgy is gaining scum points for not chiming in/agreeing.

Yay, when I'm not on I get more scum points!  My plan is working perfectly!
but are you on board for my plan?

If it gets close to the deadline, we could change our votes to change the uniqueness of them.  I don't think it's that important.
I guess that works too.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #81 on: July 22, 2013, 09:29:37 pm »

Well, blitz deadlines are very, very hectic.  See the last blitz game, where we only got to our choice in the last 5 minutes or so.

If you're going to vote everyone, do it now, or just don't do it.  Pushing it off is bad.. you'll have so much more to talk about at that point.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #82 on: July 22, 2013, 09:32:09 pm »

If it gets close to the deadline, we could change our votes to change the uniqueness of them.  I don't think it's that important.

But you can't.  Unique votes don't go away, or change.

Here's why you ignoring this benefits scum.

Assume I get run up to 3 votes, 4 unique.  I claim Doctor.  No counterclaim.  Unvotes get me down to 1 vote.  I still lead the unique vote count.

Unless we get a majority lynch candidate, it only takes keeping me tied with the leading wagon to make sure I'm lynched.  Scum can manipulate that by just not voting, or not believing me.  It's close to deadline, we've got another player to 2 votes, but no one's willing to pull the trigger.  One scum vote on me makes me the lynch again.

Unique votes are able to be manipulated.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #83 on: July 22, 2013, 09:34:30 pm »

it probably won't end up mattering though. And if it does, I promise to fix it. but if it doesn't end up mattering, then by not doing it now  I keep some of my power as counting as a unique vote.

ash, in your situation, I just vote for the other leading wagon...
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #84 on: July 22, 2013, 09:38:33 pm »

If it gets close to the deadline, we could change our votes to change the uniqueness of them.  I don't think it's that important.

But you can't.  Unique votes don't go away, or change.

Here's why you ignoring this benefits scum.

Assume I get run up to 3 votes, 4 unique.  I claim Doctor.  No counterclaim.  Unvotes get me down to 1 vote.  I still lead the unique vote count.

Unless we get a majority lynch candidate, it only takes keeping me tied with the leading wagon to make sure I'm lynched.  Scum can manipulate that by just not voting, or not believing me.  It's close to deadline, we've got another player to 2 votes, but no one's willing to pull the trigger.  One scum vote on me makes me the lynch again.

Unique votes are able to be manipulated.

Wait, unique votes stick after people unvote?  I was thinking it was something to do with the people who were voting for the person at the time.  Could someone explain exactly what a "unique" vote is, since it seems we're thinking something different...
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #85 on: July 22, 2013, 09:40:30 pm »

the number of unique votes a person has on them is the number of different people who have voted for that player at any point that day.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #86 on: July 22, 2013, 09:41:25 pm »

During each day, the number of "unique" votes a player gets are calculated. Say Player A receives votes from Player B, Player C, and Player D. Player B and Player C eventually unvote player A. Player A would have 1 actual vote, but 3 unique votes. Unique votes, once they are made, stay there until the end of the day.

Unique votes are only used for breaking ties at the end of the day.

Let me know if this still isn't clear.

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #87 on: July 22, 2013, 09:43:04 pm »

Votes are still what's most important, like in a normal game.  But each player also has a unique vote count, which asks "How many different players have voted for me in this game?". 

If the day ends without a majority lynch, the player with the most votes in lynched.  If two players are tied with the most votes, the player with the most unique votes (between those two players who are tied) get lynched.

Say Sudgy, Ashersky, and Liopoil all vote me.  They later all unvote me, then Jimm, EFHW, and Ash come in and vote for me.  I would be at 3 votes, 5 unique votes.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #88 on: July 22, 2013, 09:51:58 pm »

Alright, that makes sense, thanks.  Now that I know that, I still think it won't make too much of a difference if I do something now or later.  If I have too, it will take me half a minute to vote for someone else.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #89 on: July 22, 2013, 10:06:32 pm »

You both could at least unvote your RVS votes.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #90 on: July 22, 2013, 10:23:36 pm »

Hey, 2 hours past the start, sorry I was hardcore lurking not around.

Scumread on Ash for forgetting my existence.  Up until then I thought his plan was pretty cool.

Seriously though, I like the idea of introducing random elements to mafia, particularly when it comes to optimal strategies for second guessing Mafia.  I was kind of getting sucked into an unrelated argument about this earlier today, but the fact is that a lot of times the game theory optimum play in games with mutual decision making (like night kills and doctor protections and cop investigations) is to have some amount of randomness in your decisions.

Mafia know who town are, so they're looking for the 2 power roles out of 7.  We are looking for the 2 scum out of 9.  Doc is looking for the 5 non-mafia, non-cops out of the 8 that aren't himself.

I like the chaos this would cause, and I suspect it would be pro-town.  I like that plan.  I like plans in general.

Don't have any serious reads yet.  Time for a reread!
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #91 on: July 22, 2013, 10:36:46 pm »

I think three people should claim cop.

I'd be up for trying this plan out.  I had a similar idea in another game (Innovation?) and didn't get to try it.  We've been playing with the "don't say anything" strategy for awhile now on f.ds.  I'd like to try something different like this. 
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #92 on: July 22, 2013, 10:42:04 pm »

Yeah, why are the RVS votes still up? With the tendency for people to log off and then not check in, and the short deadline, leaving stuff like that up seems like a small but unnecessary risk.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #93 on: July 22, 2013, 10:48:42 pm »

And they've been asked twice to unvote.  Weird.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #94 on: July 22, 2013, 10:49:21 pm »

Hi all! So blitz. Both my favourite and least favourite way to play Mafia.

Okay, so I should definitely let you know my RL schedule for the next few days. Tomorrow, Wednesday my time, 3pm - 11pm I am working. Same for Thursday. Then Friday 1pm - 6pm followed by youth group and then Saturday 7am - 3pm. If you subtract 14 hours from those times, you get forum time, so Wednesday 3pm - 11pm becomes Wednesday 1am - 9am. I should be able to check in a few times while at work, and also in the morning and late at night my time.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #95 on: July 22, 2013, 10:52:49 pm »

I'm not sure about ash's plan. I mean, it's entirely possible that both scum will claim Cop, and if the third is the actual Cop then they know who to kill. On the other hand, the Cop might not even be one of the three, either because they didn't claim in time, or they chose not to. Either way, I don't think it gives terribly much information to either team, so in the end I'm not particularly against it.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #96 on: July 22, 2013, 10:56:42 pm »

My schedule is basically pure chaos.  I could either post my best attempt at generalities now, or my best attempt at specifics each day.  I'm open to either way of explaining it.

Regardless, I should be on until about 1 A.M. or so tonight (could push it a bit) then offline until maybe 10 A.M. tomorrow morning, where I'll be able to read enough to catch up, and make a few posts while doing other things until about noon, when I'll be offline from noon (or maybe 12:30 if I'm lucky) until evening.  I may be able to check in a bit around 2 P.M., but I cant promise, I'll be on again around 8.  Probably I'll either be able to check in in the afternoon or be on earlier near the deadline, but not both.  I'm going to aim for being around before the deadline by as much time as I can manage, but that is not likely to be prime chatting time for me.  I can read cases and change my vote, but I'll be able to put in the most serious time tonight and in the mid-morning tomorrow.

Can I just say that 8 P.M. is an awkwardly early time for deadlines for me.  A lot of times that's when I'll just be getting on, or later like tonight.  I will go somewhat out of my way for this game, however.  But I'd rather later (10 P.M., midnight) deadlines in general.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #97 on: July 22, 2013, 10:58:33 pm »

Right now my tentative scumread is Liopoil, because he hasn't unvoted or voted everyone else, like he said he would, and for the bit of hyperbole in his first post.  Having a cop is great, but having one that can't be protected isn't super-awesome.

7 people is not very many. to win, we MUST lynch both scum before mislynching twice, unless our doc stops the kill TWICE. but we've got some PRs to help us!

our cop is super-awesome. they should investigate scum and report back so we can win and stuff.
our doc isn't too powerful. If he manages to block the kill once, all we get is an extra night of investigations after no lynch. If he blocks it twice we get an extra mislynch, which is awesome, but unlikely. Plus he can only save VTs, not the cop.

Also, scum got to talk during the confirmation stage.  It would be good strategy to put a couple votes on some players when it was easy and then say "whoops!".
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #98 on: July 22, 2013, 10:59:46 pm »

Can I just say that 8 P.M. is an awkwardly early time for deadlines for me.  A lot of times that's when I'll just be getting on, or later like tonight.  I will go somewhat out of my way for this game, however.  But I'd rather later (10 P.M., midnight) deadlines in general.

Hmm yes that's 6am for me, and given I'm working late, I'm not going to want to drag myself out of bed at 5 or 5:30. But I'll see.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #99 on: July 22, 2013, 11:00:52 pm »

So, I know we aren't allowed to talk about ongoing games, but at the same time, meta arguments are very popular round these parts.  Where's the line on that?  Is there a good rule of thumb?
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #100 on: July 22, 2013, 11:01:23 pm »

so sudgy would be my second scumread.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #101 on: July 22, 2013, 11:03:19 pm »

So, I know we aren't allowed to talk about ongoing games, but at the same time, meta arguments are very popular round these parts.  Where's the line on that?  Is there a good rule of thumb?

Ash pushed the envelope in talking about liopoil's activity in an ongoing game.  Really he shouldn't have said that because any opinions about players in a game need to stay in that game only.  You are safest to just not refer to ongoing games at all.  There are lots of finished games you can refer to as much as you want.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #102 on: July 22, 2013, 11:03:52 pm »

Can I just say that 8 P.M. is an awkwardly early time for deadlines for me.  A lot of times that's when I'll just be getting on, or later like tonight.  I will go somewhat out of my way for this game, however.  But I'd rather later (10 P.M., midnight) deadlines in general.

Hmm yes that's 6am for me, and given I'm working late, I'm not going to want to drag myself out of bed at 5 or 5:30. But I'll see.
After 8 is better for me, too.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #103 on: July 22, 2013, 11:04:47 pm »

Yes but no finished games that I am in.

But advice taken, I'll be silent on issues of that other game.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #104 on: July 22, 2013, 11:04:51 pm »

If a later deadline is better for the majority of players, I would change it. How would 10pm work as opposed to 8pm?
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #105 on: July 22, 2013, 11:05:33 pm »

I would prefer a 10pm deadline as well.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #106 on: July 22, 2013, 11:06:09 pm »

10 pm is good.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #107 on: July 22, 2013, 11:06:46 pm »

10 P.M. is much better for me, thank you.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #108 on: July 22, 2013, 11:08:22 pm »

With 7 players alive, it takes 4 to change a deadline.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #109 on: July 22, 2013, 11:09:07 pm »

Right now my tentative scumread is Liopoil, because he hasn't unvoted or voted everyone else, like he said he would, and for the bit of hyperbole in his first post.  Having a cop is great, but having one that can't be protected isn't super-awesome.

7 people is not very many. to win, we MUST lynch both scum before mislynching twice, unless our doc stops the kill TWICE. but we've got some PRs to help us!

our cop is super-awesome. they should investigate scum and report back so we can win and stuff.
our doc isn't too powerful. If he manages to block the kill once, all we get is an extra night of investigations after no lynch. If he blocks it twice we get an extra mislynch, which is awesome, but unlikely. Plus he can only save VTs, not the cop.

Also, scum got to talk during the confirmation stage.  It would be good strategy to put a couple votes on some players when it was easy and then say "whoops!".

I get what you're saying with the voting thing, even though I disagree.  Players know that leaving these votes on is scummy, and we can say "scum would be more careful".  But scum know we would say this, so they can leave it on.. but maybe they would know we would do this.  At best, it's a bunch of WIFOM for me.

As for the cop thing, that's really a stretch for me.  It agree that the cop isn't super great, since he can't be doctored, and Lio is exaggerating, but why is that scummy at all?
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #110 on: July 22, 2013, 11:12:29 pm »

Can I just say that 8 P.M. is an awkwardly early time for deadlines for me.  A lot of times that's when I'll just be getting on, or later like tonight.  I will go somewhat out of my way for this game, however.  But I'd rather later (10 P.M., midnight) deadlines in general.

Hmm yes that's 6am for me, and given I'm working late, I'm not going to want to drag myself out of bed at 5 or 5:30. But I'll see.

Jimmmmm, you are backwards.  8 p.m. is 10 a.m. for us.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #111 on: July 22, 2013, 11:13:32 pm »

As for the cop thing, that's really a stretch for me.  It agree that the cop isn't super great, since he can't be doctored, and Lio is exaggerating, but why is that scummy at all?

Exaggerating to me is an indication of the writer possibly trying to seem other than what they are.  Here, it seems to me he may be trying to seem town-aligned by acting excited about something a town player would like, but going too far.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #112 on: July 22, 2013, 11:14:36 pm »

So, I know we aren't allowed to talk about ongoing games, but at the same time, meta arguments are very popular round these parts.  Where's the line on that?  Is there a good rule of thumb?

Ash pushed the envelope in talking about liopoil's activity in an ongoing game.  Really he shouldn't have said that because any opinions about players in a game need to stay in that game only.  You are safest to just not refer to ongoing games at all.  There are lots of finished games you can refer to as much as you want.

I mean, I guess maybe I pushed an envelope?  But really, I didn't say much of anything.

I believe the rule of thumb would be don't mention ongoing games.  But then, it's like "if you wanted to read about how scum X seems, you could read..." because someone died as scum in a game, you wouldn't break any rules.

Use your best judgement.  Generally, don't talk about ongoing stuff.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #113 on: July 22, 2013, 11:15:11 pm »

So, it seems a majority of players are okay with or at least see no harm in a 3-cop claim.  Anyone want to start?
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #114 on: July 22, 2013, 11:15:53 pm »

I claim cop!
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #115 on: July 22, 2013, 11:16:53 pm »

Can I just say that 8 P.M. is an awkwardly early time for deadlines for me.  A lot of times that's when I'll just be getting on, or later like tonight.  I will go somewhat out of my way for this game, however.  But I'd rather later (10 P.M., midnight) deadlines in general.

Hmm yes that's 6am for me, and given I'm working late, I'm not going to want to drag myself out of bed at 5 or 5:30. But I'll see.

Jimmmmm, you are backwards.  8 p.m. is 10 a.m. for us.

Right. Cool. That's heaps better. In which case 10pm is even better.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #116 on: July 22, 2013, 11:18:21 pm »

Can I just say that 8 P.M. is an awkwardly early time for deadlines for me.  A lot of times that's when I'll just be getting on, or later like tonight.  I will go somewhat out of my way for this game, however.  But I'd rather later (10 P.M., midnight) deadlines in general.

Hmm yes that's 6am for me, and given I'm working late, I'm not going to want to drag myself out of bed at 5 or 5:30. But I'll see.

Jimmmmm, you are backwards.  8 p.m. is 10 a.m. for us.

Right. Cool. That's heaps better. In which case 10pm is even better.

I'm good with either.

I will note that, as of the last vote count, the deadline was today at 8:00 p.m., or 3 hours ago.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #117 on: July 22, 2013, 11:18:47 pm »

Deadline moved from 8pm to 10pm.

I will try to make the deadlines fall in this time, which probably means we won't be sticking exactly to 24-hour days.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #118 on: July 22, 2013, 11:20:04 pm »

Deadline moved from 8pm to 10pm.

I will try to make the deadlines fall in this time, which probably means we won't be sticking exactly to 24-hour days.


Oh wait, I'm confused because it is Tuesday here.

Nevermind.  So it's 10 p.m. on Tuesday forum time.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #119 on: July 22, 2013, 11:20:13 pm »

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #120 on: July 22, 2013, 11:21:09 pm »

I claim cop!

I am no cop.

Claiming not cop is very bad for this plan.  Also, it is VERY bad for town, as it narrows down scum's options.  This is a voteable offense.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #121 on: July 22, 2013, 11:21:32 pm »

So this game of mafia takes place on a planet where the days are a bit longer than 24 hours.  Just write a bit of SF into the flavor!

(Or time could be dictated by an evil government who like to keep us off balance by adjusting the clocks all the time.)
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #122 on: July 22, 2013, 11:23:40 pm »

I claim cop!

I am no cop.

Claiming not cop is very bad for this plan.  Also, it is VERY bad for town, as it narrows down scum's options.  This is a voteable offense.

So your plan was to get three people to get cop, then throw suspicion on the other four?

Vote: Ashersky
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #123 on: July 22, 2013, 11:24:03 pm »

I claim cop!

I am no cop.

Claiming not cop is very bad for this plan.  Also, it is VERY bad for town, as it narrows down scum's options.  This is a voteable offense.
Isn't it WIFOM like the rest?
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #124 on: July 22, 2013, 11:24:20 pm »

I claim cop!

I am no cop.

Claiming not cop is very bad for this plan.  Also, it is VERY bad for town, as it narrows down scum's options.  This is a voteable offense.

Yeah, but for all we know he is scum, or the cop, or a vanilla townie or whatever.  I'm not sure his taking that choice is much worse for town than just not jumping on and deciding.

By the way, I claim cop!
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #125 on: July 22, 2013, 11:25:50 pm »

Yay, we get to be super-awesome!
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #126 on: July 22, 2013, 11:26:09 pm »

I claim cop!

I am no cop.

Claiming not cop is very bad for this plan.  Also, it is VERY bad for town, as it narrows down scum's options.  This is a voteable offense.

So your plan was to get three people to get cop, then throw suspicion on the other four?

Vote: Ashersky

Where did you get that twisted idea?  My plan is to get three people to claim cop, and then continue the game normally.

Your reaction is very, very odd.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #127 on: July 22, 2013, 11:27:35 pm »

I claim cop!

I am no cop.

Claiming not cop is very bad for this plan.  Also, it is VERY bad for town, as it narrows down scum's options.  This is a voteable offense.
Isn't it WIFOM like the rest?

Maybe.  But it's very clearly a deviation from the plan, which throws off the plan's efficacy.  That's the issue with it.

If nkirbit's the Cop, that's just an odd thing to say.  If he didn't want to claim, he waits for three others.  Plus, the typo is weird.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #128 on: July 22, 2013, 11:27:43 pm »

Yay, we get to be super-awesome!

I'll grow a powerful moustache!
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #129 on: July 22, 2013, 11:28:28 pm »

I claim cop!

I am no cop.

Claiming not cop is very bad for this plan.  Also, it is VERY bad for town, as it narrows down scum's options.  This is a voteable offense.

So your plan was to get three people to get cop, then throw suspicion on the other four?

Vote: Ashersky

Where did you get that twisted idea?  My plan is to get three people to claim cop, and then continue the game normally.

Your reaction is very, very odd.

Right.  I'm saying I'm not a cop.  Three people are saying they are cops.  Obviously, there are multiple people lying on one side.. why are you assuming that everyone other the other side must be telling the truth?  You said yourself that the people claiming not cop could in fact be cops
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #130 on: July 22, 2013, 11:28:45 pm »

But Ash, maybe "that's an odd thing to say" is exactly the reasoning he's going for?  You don't know.  Which is good, because none of us know, so scum doesn't know.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #131 on: July 22, 2013, 11:31:57 pm »

But Ash, maybe "that's an odd thing to say" is exactly the reasoning he's going for?  You don't know.  Which is good, because none of us know, so scum doesn't know.

But just not claiming is the same.  If we have everyone say cop/not cop, that would suck.

What's odd to me is the way he's twisted my plan into something nefarious.  That's a scum move.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #132 on: July 22, 2013, 11:32:31 pm »

Also, his vote put me at L-2, which is awful dangerous in a 7-player blitz game.  But he didn't note it or take in into consideration.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #133 on: July 22, 2013, 11:33:28 pm »

We should all really be carefully throwing around our votes here.

Especially with the unique votes thing.  And especially with Ash and I already having votes on us.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #134 on: July 22, 2013, 11:35:01 pm »

I guess there's a difference between saying "I claim not Cop" and "I don't claim Cop". If nkirbit is treating these two as the same, then we don't really have a problem, and his non-claim can't be any more or less trusted or suspicious than the claims of EFHW and Snow.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #135 on: July 22, 2013, 11:36:07 pm »

How is not claiming any different from saying "not cop".  It's just me saying that I'm not going to claim cop.  None of these claims have a shred of credence, anyway.

It wasn't clear to me you had such a difference between saying nothing and saying that you weren't going to claim cop.  I certainly don't see the difference between the two.  I just was acknowledging that EFHW claimed cop and stated that I wasn't going to claim.  If you want to take my claim and remake it into "I'm not going to claim cop", feel free to.  I think they're the same thing.

You're the one who found a player scummy because they didn't follow your plan exactly the way you envisioned it first.  I'm calling you out because I think it's easy to do that.  You had a plan for how things were going to go, and the first person who deviated from that you immediately called out as scummy.  I don't think the plan was especially clear, as I obviously got confused with it.  I can see scum setting this up as a trap, and letting their partner know in the QT so that they don't fall into it.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #136 on: July 22, 2013, 11:36:13 pm »

Also, I suggest we come to a consensus by deadline and not have to worry about the unique votes thing.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #137 on: July 22, 2013, 11:37:24 pm »

Also, his vote put me at L-2, which is awful dangerous in a 7-player blitz game.  But he didn't note it or take in into consideration.

I don't think it's dangerous.  If scum want to quickhammer you, I'd be ecstatic.  L-1 is the dangerous point, since we have only two scum.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #138 on: July 22, 2013, 11:39:26 pm »

Also, I suggest we come to a consensus by deadline and not have to worry about the unique votes thing.

I agree, I would prefer this, but I don't think we can just guarantee we don't have to worry about it.

I think we should lynch only scum and not make any dumb mistakes!

We should try our best for these type of goals, but I think they're worth worrying about, because there is a lot of potential for us to screw up.  Especially with these deadlines.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #139 on: July 22, 2013, 11:39:48 pm »

ashersky, did you come up with your plan before or after you received your role PM?
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #140 on: July 22, 2013, 11:42:28 pm »

That's rolefishing on the one hand, and unhelpful on the other.

If this is Ash's nefarious scum-plan, he'll lie.  If he is cop, he should lie, if he is VT or came up with it beforehand maybe he'll tell the truth, but none of us would trust it anyway.

Why ask this, Jimmmm?
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #141 on: July 22, 2013, 11:44:36 pm »

Between the rolefishing and the "let's not worry about this thing that could potentially cause a lynch we don't want after a claim", FoS: Jimmmmm.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #142 on: July 22, 2013, 11:46:06 pm »

That's rolefishing on the one hand, and unhelpful on the other.

If this is Ash's nefarious scum-plan, he'll lie.  If he is cop, he should lie, if he is VT or came up with it beforehand maybe he'll tell the truth, but none of us would trust it anyway.

Why ask this, Jimmmm?

Just wondering what if anything we can deduce about his alignment based on his suggesting this plan. My suspicion is nothing, but I don't think him replying one way or another will give scum any extra information.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #143 on: July 22, 2013, 11:48:15 pm »

ashersky, did you come up with your plan before or after you received your role PM?

After.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #144 on: July 22, 2013, 11:48:46 pm »

ashersky, did you come up with your plan before or after you received your role PM?

After.

Well, sort of.  In my confirmation reply to TA, I said "you're gonna love my plan!"
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #145 on: July 22, 2013, 11:50:00 pm »

Oh crap, I fully intended to confirm that I was a man with three buttocks in my confirmation reply and forgot.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #146 on: July 22, 2013, 11:51:37 pm »

Honestly, I looked at Doctor + Macho Cop, then thought about how it was designed to foil Follow the Cop, then thought about how we could still use those two roles to beat scum.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #147 on: July 22, 2013, 11:52:01 pm »

Seriously though, I don't think scumAsh or TownAsh would really come up with plans any differently, just with different goals in mind.

But Officer EFHW and I both thought it was a good or at least fun idea and harmless, so no matter what you can feel safe knowing we have at least one town in favor of this plan.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #148 on: July 22, 2013, 11:56:21 pm »

Between the rolefishing and the "let's not worry about this thing that could potentially cause a lynch we don't want after a claim", FoS: Jimmmmm.

Okay.

First of all, the unique votes thing. This is what I'm afraid will happen if we worry to much about it. No one will vote until very shortly before deadline, at which point whoever's schedules allow them to be online at that particular time will get full control of the vote. This is contrary to normal voting procedure, in which votes are built up over the course of the Day, giving time for reactions to votes etc. Wagons are a powerful thing, and if we try to limit them we're costing ourselves information. Having said that, I totally agree with not taking anyone to L-2 prematurely.

Secondly, admittedly my question referred to "role PM", but his actual specific role in terms of PR or VT if he's Town was the furthest thing from my mind. I suspect that he came up with it before he knew if he was Town or scum, in which case we can't tell anything from it about whether he is Town or scum. But if he wants to argue that he would only have thought of it as Town, or that he would never suggest it as scum, then that could potentially give us clues to his alignment, which is certainly all I'm after.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #149 on: July 22, 2013, 11:57:58 pm »

But Officer EFHW and I both thought it was a good or at least fun idea and harmless, so no matter what you can feel safe knowing we have at least one town in favor of this plan.

Meh, I think the plan's pretty harmless as long as no one gets stupid about it. What's in question is ash's alignment, not the goodness of the plan.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #150 on: July 23, 2013, 12:11:54 am »

Vote Count 1.3

UmbrageofSnow (1, u1): Sudgy
Ashersky (2, u2): Liopoil, Nkirbit

Not voting (5): Jimmmm, EFHW, UmbrageofSnow, Ashersky

With 7 players alive, it takes 4 to lynch
Deadline is 10 pm forum time on Tuesday, July 23rd.

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #151 on: July 23, 2013, 12:13:04 am »

Okay, so now that you know you were only kind of right, does that make him more or less suspicious to you?  Does the fact that he was honest make you more or less suspicious?

See, I don't think I can figure anything out about Ash from that bit of info, one way or another, anything that can be read into it seems just too specious to be useful to me.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #152 on: July 23, 2013, 12:18:13 am »

And also kind of wrong, actually!  He had the thought right with the confirmation, but he did know what he was.  Assuming we trust him.  Just not clear what you were hoping to get here.  But seems like it could be a way to differentiate him from other townies if he were town and you were scum, that's all I'm worrying about here.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #153 on: July 23, 2013, 12:40:27 am »

I'm not really sure what I was expecting. It was kind of reminding me of his plan in Masons and Monks, although much less controversial, in that he came straight into the game with a plan. I can't remember if he said he came up with it before or after he knew he was Town in that game, but he was Town. I was leaning slight Town on him (I still am), and had to remind myself that he probably came up with the plan before he knew if he was Town or scum. I just wanted to see what he would say to help my own thought processes and try to determine whether the intent of the plan is to help Town or to seem like it's helping Town.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #154 on: July 23, 2013, 12:41:56 am »

I'm not really sure what I was expecting. It was kind of reminding me of his plan in Masons and Monks, although much less controversial, in that he came straight into the game with a plan. I can't remember if he said he came up with it before or after he knew he was Town in that game, but he was Town. I was leaning slight Town on him (I still am), and had to remind myself that he probably came up with the plan before he knew if he was Town or scum. I just wanted to see what he would say to help my own thought processes and try to determine whether the intent of the plan is to help Town or to seem like it's helping Town.

In Masons and Monks, I definitely had my plan way before PMs.  But there was a long lead time into that game.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #155 on: July 23, 2013, 01:42:58 am »

First, I realized, lio and I should NOT vote for others.  That's just giving more unique votes.  We shouldn't have RVSed, but it's too late now.  I'll Unvote now, but it won't change that now...

Also, I claim cop.  I am the real cop, don't listen to them!

Now, I would vote ash, but I don't want to give unique votes

Actually, I agree with Jimmmmm.  Vote: ashersky.  Either his plan was made before the game or he did to make himself seem like his town self, and he FoSed people who hadn't posted for a tiny bit.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #156 on: July 23, 2013, 01:45:20 am »

Wow, really?  L-1 already?  Anyone want to unvote?
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #157 on: July 23, 2013, 01:49:11 am »

Holy crap, I forgot that was L-1.  Unvote, but consider me voting for you.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #158 on: July 23, 2013, 01:49:22 am »

I'll have substantially less access starting in an hour or so, but available for the final 4 hours of the day.

I think this is a record for fastest L-1, ever.

I am the Doctor.  Now unvote, before scum hammers.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #159 on: July 23, 2013, 01:51:44 am »

I'll have substantially less access starting in an hour or so, but available for the final 4 hours of the day.

I think this is a record for fastest L-1, ever.

I am the Doctor.  Now unvote, before scum hammers.

Sorry!  Any counterclaims?

Also, it makes sense for a quick L-1, as this is Blitz...
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #160 on: July 23, 2013, 01:55:12 am »

Also, it makes sense for a quick L-1, as this is Blitz...

I mean, I guess so, but there just hasn't been much to go on.  For now, I'm going to vote: nkirbit as I think his reaction was the worst (scummiest) to my plan.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #161 on: July 23, 2013, 01:59:29 am »

We've really had two genuine claims on day 1? That kind of sucks really. Just hoping that scum aren't able to take out our two PRs in two nights.

I'm going out this afternoon/evening and should be back to post some time tonight and then tomorrow morning before deadline. Don't do anything stupid.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #162 on: July 23, 2013, 02:01:08 am »

We've really had two genuine claims on day 1? That kind of sucks really. Just hoping that scum aren't able to take out our two PRs in two nights.

I'm going out this afternoon/evening and should be back to post some time tonight and then tomorrow morning before deadline. Don't do anything stupid.

Well, it depends if you consider nkirbit's "no cop" claim to mean he's not the cop or he's not claiming he's the cop, but yes.

I was at L-1, man.  The freaking RVS vote is still there.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #163 on: July 23, 2013, 02:02:06 am »

We've really had two genuine claims on day 1? That kind of sucks really. Just hoping that scum aren't able to take out our two PRs in two nights.

I'm going out this afternoon/evening and should be back to post some time tonight and then tomorrow morning before deadline. Don't do anything stupid.

Well, it depends if you consider nkirbit's "no cop" claim to mean he's not the cop or he's not claiming he's the cop, but yes.

I was at L-1, man.  The freaking RVS vote is still there.

I know. I mostly blame sudgy for that one.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #164 on: July 23, 2013, 02:02:49 am »

We've really had two genuine claims on day 1? That kind of sucks really. Just hoping that scum aren't able to take out our two PRs in two nights.

I'm going out this afternoon/evening and should be back to post some time tonight and then tomorrow morning before deadline. Don't do anything stupid.

Well, it depends if you consider nkirbit's "no cop" claim to mean he's not the cop or he's not claiming he's the cop, but yes.

I was at L-1, man.  The freaking RVS vote is still there.

I know. I mostly blame sudgy for that one.

Having said that, your claim did come after he had unvoted. Check your PPEs people!
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #165 on: July 23, 2013, 02:06:15 am »

Having said that, your claim did come after he had unvoted. Check your PPEs people!

11 seconds.  With important stuff, I sometimes rush it. 
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liopoil

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #166 on: July 23, 2013, 09:25:14 am »

Unvote

man, I go to sleep and terrible stuff happens. Frustrated at this town.

first, frustrated at myself for making an RVS vote in a unique votes game and not removing it before I left.
second, frustrated at sudgy for putting someone at L-1 without checking. always always check.
third, a little frustrated at Jimmmmm for putting ash at L-2 when there was a vote on him that shouldn't be there
fourth, frustrated at people for thinking ash is scum. I don't get it at all.

the above resulted in outing our doctor. I will be very surprised if there are counterclaims.

fifth, frustrated at people for following this ridiculous plan.

why is this plan ridiculous? because it CANNOT HELP TOWN, it can ONLY HURT TOWN. it cannot help town because the best-case scenario scum ignore all the claiming. worst case scenario someone kinda slips and scum successfully get info on who the cop really is.
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liopoil

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #167 on: July 23, 2013, 09:26:18 am »

already we have significantly lowered our chance of winning, which could easily have been avoided. We have outed the doc, and I'm sure scum have a good idea who the cop is.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #168 on: July 23, 2013, 09:45:43 am »

ahh, I now see that it was nkirbit, not Jimmmm, who was the second on the ash wagon. whoops.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #169 on: July 23, 2013, 09:50:10 am »

Right now my tentative scumread is Liopoil, because he hasn't unvoted or voted everyone else, like he said he would, and for the bit of hyperbole in his first post.  Having a cop is great, but having one that can't be protected isn't super-awesome.

our cop is super-awesome. they should investigate scum and report back so we can win and stuff.

Also, scum got to talk during the confirmation stage.  It would be good strategy to put a couple votes on some players when it was easy and then say "whoops!".
uuhhh what? no hyperbole from me. Our cop is super-awesome. being macho is not much of a nerf. it nerfs the doctor more really. Consider him just like a cop in a game with no protective roles. still awesome. If he could be protected than the cop would be super-OP.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #170 on: July 23, 2013, 09:50:37 am »

Vote Count 1.4

ashersky (1, u3): nkirbit
nkirbit (1, u1): ashersky

Not voting (5): Jimmmm, EFHW, UmbrageOfSnow (u1), liopoil, sudgy

With 7 players alive, it takes 4 to lynch
Deadline is 10 pm forum time on Tuesday, July 23rd
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #171 on: July 23, 2013, 10:55:31 am »

Holy crap, you guy put Ash at L-1 while I was asleep?  Eek.

I believe his Doc claim 100%.  I think his disagreement with what he thought the plan was and what some of us thought the plan was comes from him wanting to help doc and us focusing more on confusing scum.  I kind of picked up on that earlier but didn't want to say anything.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #172 on: July 23, 2013, 11:05:22 am »

Okay, so almost nothing's happened since I was out. I also believe ash's Doc claim and will continue to do so until someone contests it. liopoil's frustration seems genuine. No one else has really jumped out at me. Off to do some re-reads.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #173 on: July 23, 2013, 11:08:00 am »

people who have posted but haven't counterclaimed:

liopoil, Umbrage, Jimmm, Sudgy

so we're waiting on nkirbit and EFHW.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #174 on: July 23, 2013, 11:17:52 am »

This seems like hyperbole to me, and a significant change from how Liopoil was talking about these issues yesterday:
already we have significantly lowered our chance of winning, which could easily have been avoided. We have outed the doc, and I'm sure scum have a good idea who the cop is.

Unvote

man, I go to sleep and terrible stuff happens. Frustrated at this town.

first, frustrated at myself for making an RVS vote in a unique votes game and not removing it before I left.
second, frustrated at sudgy for putting someone at L-1 without checking. always always check.
...
fifth, frustrated at people for following this ridiculous plan.

why is this plan ridiculous? because it CANNOT HELP TOWN, it can ONLY HURT TOWN. it cannot help town because the best-case scenario scum ignore all the claiming. worst case scenario someone kinda slips and scum successfully get info on who the cop really is.

But regarding the plan, yesterday Liopoil said
I don't really see why the claims mean anything. The people aren't actually saying that they're the cop. scum can just ignore the claims.

So why does he go from this to complete "Scum know who the cop is" "This plan is terrible, I'm mad at town for following it."
Those objections should have come up from him yesterday, if he thought this was going to matter, not after the damage (such as it is) is already done.  Now I don't think we've ruined our chances at all, at least not from how I see the plan working, but it's clear that Liopoil thinks that we have, and this makes him scummy to me.  It makes him more likely to be scum who thinks he knows more than he actually does.

crap, just realized... this game uses unique votes as a tiebreaker!!! that means... RVS is bad! and I RVSed!! sudgy did too. that could be a problem...

And after this quote, Liopoil suggests unvoting and voting on everyone else once to even things out.  BUT HE NEVER DOES IT.  Liopoil had plenty of time to fix his mistake yesterday, and he clearly realized it and was online for quite a while after realizing it, but he did nothing.  That seems like the kind of "oops I forgot" that can hurt town while hoping to make it look accidental, particularly if his scum partner wanted to come in and hammer Ash in the night and Liopoil might not have been online during that time.  That might have almost happened, I don't know, but Liopoil's declining to unvote after talking about how bad it is seems really suspicious.

Vote: Liopoil
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #175 on: July 23, 2013, 11:32:41 am »

First, I realized, lio and I should NOT vote for others.  That's just giving more unique votes.  We shouldn't have RVSed, but it's too late now.  I'll Unvote now, but it won't change that now...
So you realize the problems with the RVS votes but despite Liopoil's plan (that he failed to actually follow through on, just threw out there for towncred and ignored) you don't want to fix it and are treating it like something that is impossible to change?  I'm not saying the plan is the best in the world, or even that you should necessarily do it, but treating it so fatalistically when it's a fixable problem (albeit with the downside of reducing your ability to manipulate unique votes later) is a bit weird.

Now, I would vote ash, but I don't want to give unique votes

Actually, I agree with Jimmmmm.  Vote: ashersky.  Either his plan was made before the game or he did to make himself seem like his town self, and he FoSed people who hadn't posted for a tiny bit.

Maybe you didn't say what you meant, but the first half of your sentence is saying that either Ash made his plan before the game to be towny or to seem towny therefore he's scummy.  That is ridiculous.  You can't win that, but that logic seems to be depressingly common.  "Either he wants to help town, or he wants to look like he's trying to help town, he must be scum" is just a terrible form of argument.  You haven't pointed out anything scummy about the plan, but Ash is scummy for having a plan, because it makes him look like how he plays as town. :o

The FoS at people who hadn't posted was silly, but I didn't take it as particularly serious,  (I joked back at him after I stopped "lurking" and opened up my computer).  I could see thinking it was a bit scummy, but it's hardly a reason to vote, especially in this game, where you have just explained that you understand that UNIQUE VOTES ARE A PROBLEM.

And since your first point is nonsense and seems to be misunderstanding Jimmmmm, (in which case you should be finding Jimmmm ridiculous, not agreeing with him) you are basically putting Ash at L-1, giving him another unique vote which you understand to be bad, for (more or less) RVS-FoSing me, EFHW, and Jimmmmm?  That is nuts.
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UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #176 on: July 23, 2013, 11:33:42 am »

Unless more things come to light, I'd like to lynch one of Liopoil and Sudgy today.

I absolutely will not vote Ashersky.
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liopoil

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #177 on: July 23, 2013, 11:38:49 am »

crap, just realized... this game uses unique votes as a tiebreaker!!! that means... RVS is bad! and I RVSed!! sudgy did too. that could be a problem...

And after this quote, Liopoil suggests unvoting and voting on everyone else once to even things out.  BUT HE NEVER DOES IT.  Liopoil had plenty of time to fix his mistake yesterday, and he clearly realized it and was online for quite a while after realizing it, but he did nothing.  That seems like the kind of "oops I forgot" that can hurt town while hoping to make it look accidental, particularly if his scum partner wanted to come in and hammer Ash in the night and Liopoil might not have been online during that time.  That might have almost happened, I don't know, but Liopoil's declining to unvote after talking about how bad it is seems really suspicious.

Vote: Liopoil
what's the point in unvoting, the unique vote is already there. Sure, I should've have removed my vote before I left. I didn't think a wagon would build on him overnight, but I guess that's blitz. oh well, I'll learn from it and not make the same mistake again.

I never did it. why? because it makes my vote less powerful, because I don't count as a unique vote anymore. and sudgy wasn't going to do it either. And if we got to a point where my unique vote on ash mattered, I would put my unique vote on the other wagon too (and still will if that happens)

it seems the point you are making in this section is that I made a "mistake" that might have been intentional. the same can be said for sudgy with his putting ash at L-1.
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liopoil

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #178 on: July 23, 2013, 11:40:37 am »

This seems like hyperbole to me, and a significant change from how Liopoil was talking about these issues yesterday:
already we have significantly lowered our chance of winning, which could easily have been avoided. We have outed the doc, and I'm sure scum have a good idea who the cop is.

Unvote

man, I go to sleep and terrible stuff happens. Frustrated at this town.

first, frustrated at myself for making an RVS vote in a unique votes game and not removing it before I left.
second, frustrated at sudgy for putting someone at L-1 without checking. always always check.
...
fifth, frustrated at people for following this ridiculous plan.

why is this plan ridiculous? because it CANNOT HELP TOWN, it can ONLY HURT TOWN. it cannot help town because the best-case scenario scum ignore all the claiming. worst case scenario someone kinda slips and scum successfully get info on who the cop really is.

But regarding the plan, yesterday Liopoil said
I don't really see why the claims mean anything. The people aren't actually saying that they're the cop. scum can just ignore the claims.

So why does he go from this to complete "Scum know who the cop is" "This plan is terrible, I'm mad at town for following it."
Those objections should have come up from him yesterday, if he thought this was going to matter, not after the damage (such as it is) is already done.  Now I don't think we've ruined our chances at all, at least not from how I see the plan working, but it's clear that Liopoil thinks that we have, and this makes him scummy to me.  It makes him more likely to be scum who thinks he knows more than he actually does.
what the... why do people keep accusing my of hyperbole, and why is it scummy? and I'm not being hyperbolic! you said: "why does he go from this to complete "Scum know who the cop is"" I said: "I'm sure scum have a good idea who the cop is.". Now who's being hyperbolic, hmm?

In regard to you saying I changed my mind about the plan, I didn't. the quote you highlighted:
I don't really see why the claims mean anything. The people aren't actually saying that they're the cop. scum can just ignore the claims.
I am objecting to the plan in this very post! I am saying that it cannot help town because the claims are meaningless and scum will ignore them. I also dissagree with the plan here:
wait, I don't get it... how does this lower the chances of mafia killing the cop? won't they still have a 1/5 chance? (actually, that's only if we lynch scum today, it's a 1/4 chance if we don't). I mean, the claims won't mean anything...
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UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #179 on: July 23, 2013, 11:46:01 am »

what's the point in unvoting, the unique vote is already there. Sure, I should've have removed my vote before I left. I didn't think a wagon would build on him overnight, but I guess that's blitz. oh well, I'll learn from it and not make the same mistake again.

I never did it. why? because it makes my vote less powerful, because I don't count as a unique vote anymore. and sudgy wasn't going to do it either. And if we got to a point where my unique vote on ash mattered, I would put my unique vote on the other wagon too (and still will if that happens)

it seems the point you are making in this section is that I made a "mistake" that might have been intentional. the same can be said for sudgy with his putting ash at L-1.
Regarding your last comment, note that Sudgy is my other top scumread.  I agree with you!

UNVOTING DOES NOT MAKE YOUR VOTE LESS POWERFUL.  And there is a HUGE point in unvoting.  We don't lynch off unique votes unless there is a tie.  I get that your plan made your vote less powerful, but unvoting would have been an excellent middle ground between following through and not.  I really don't understand "What's the point in unvoting".  The point is to not have a vote on Ash that you don't believe in.  You can always put it back, you know.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #180 on: July 23, 2013, 11:46:47 am »


Hmm, you're making some sense. Having now re-read liopoil, my biggest problem is that he's been posting a reasonable amount without actually offering any opinions. I mentioned that his frustration seemed genuine, and in isolation it did. But having read his whole game now, that sort of thing, that is, theory talk, talking about plans, talking about what's good and bad for Town, is all he's really said.
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UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #181 on: July 23, 2013, 11:50:28 am »

Liopoil, those objections are so weak, they didn't even look like objections to the rest of us.  And now you're talking about how bad town is and how scum probably have a good idea of who the cop is.  That is a HUGE shift from seeming like you don't care and you think it's pointless but unharmful, which is how your quotes from yesterday read.

Also, I wasn't being hyperbolic, I was exaggerating for effect in my fake quotes of you (that came after the real quote).  I'm saying that I think you're panicking way way too much.  To a degree that I think may be artificial.
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liopoil

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #182 on: July 23, 2013, 11:51:55 am »

what's the point in unvoting, the unique vote is already there. Sure, I should've have removed my vote before I left. I didn't think a wagon would build on him overnight, but I guess that's blitz. oh well, I'll learn from it and not make the same mistake again.

I never did it. why? because it makes my vote less powerful, because I don't count as a unique vote anymore. and sudgy wasn't going to do it either. And if we got to a point where my unique vote on ash mattered, I would put my unique vote on the other wagon too (and still will if that happens)

it seems the point you are making in this section is that I made a "mistake" that might have been intentional. the same can be said for sudgy with his putting ash at L-1.
UNVOTING DOES NOT MAKE YOUR VOTE LESS POWERFUL.  And there is a HUGE point in unvoting.  We don't lynch off unique votes unless there is a tie.  I get that your plan made your vote less powerful, but unvoting would have been an excellent middle ground between following through and not.  I really don't understand "What's the point in unvoting".  The point is to not have a vote on Ash that you don't believe in.  You can always put it back, you know.
of course it doesn't make my vote less powerful, what are you talking about?? I already said that I should have unvoted before I left.  I should have. I don't get why this is scummy.

and stop saying that I didn't "follow through". I never committed to doing it, I put it forward as a possible idea. And it turned out to be a bad idea.
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liopoil

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #183 on: July 23, 2013, 11:56:51 am »

Liopoil, those objections are so weak, they didn't even look like objections to the rest of us.  And now you're talking about how bad town is and how scum probably have a good idea of who the cop is.  That is a HUGE shift from seeming like you don't care and you think it's pointless but unharmful, which is how your quotes from yesterday read.

Also, I wasn't being hyperbolic, I was exaggerating for effect in my fake quotes of you (that came after the real quote).  I'm saying that I think you're panicking way way too much.  To a degree that I think may be artificial.
that's just not true. I assumed we weren't going to do the plan, because at the time, ash was the only one in support of it! And I NEVER said it was unharmful.

"I wasn't being hyperbolic, I was exaggerating for effect"

that's being hyperbolic: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Hyperbole

I'm panicking? why would I panic as scum, the doc just claimed and people are giving me clues as to who the cop is!
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UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #184 on: July 23, 2013, 12:03:00 pm »

I'm saying that I think you're panicking way way too much.  To a degree that I think may be artificial.
I'm panicking? why would I panic as scum, the doc just claimed and people are giving me clues as to who the cop is!

Your doom and gloom about how much scum know and how bad we screwed up seems artificial, like scum would want to look more worried when they were not actually worried at all.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #185 on: July 23, 2013, 12:04:30 pm »

Having re-read nkirbit, the only thing I really thought was worth mentioning was his interaction with ashersky. From the outset this gives him some scum points since I'm treating ash as confirmed Town. I did find his "I am no cop" a little weird and contrary to the plan, although not as damning as ash did. I do disagree with nkirbit's reaction to ash's reaction to him, that just struck me as regular ash. So slight scumread on nkirbit, half based on the opinion of someone who I believe to be Town, and half for what may have been an overreaction to ash's reaction.
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UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #186 on: July 23, 2013, 12:04:43 pm »

Liopoil, those objections are so weak, they didn't even look like objections to the rest of us.  And now you're talking about how bad town is and how scum probably have a good idea of who the cop is.  That is a HUGE shift from seeming like you don't care and you think it's pointless but unharmful, which is how your quotes from yesterday read.

Also, I wasn't being hyperbolic, I was exaggerating for effect in my fake quotes of you (that came after the real quote).  I'm saying that I think you're panicking way way too much.  To a degree that I think may be artificial.
that's just not true. ... And I NEVER said it was unharmful.

You NEVER SAID IT WAS HARMFUL either.  Just that you didn't see how it could help.  Not seeing how it can help is a much much weaker objection than "scum knows who the cop is now".
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liopoil

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #187 on: July 23, 2013, 12:06:26 pm »

oh I see. well, we are in trouble though. We made a terrible mistake that could easily have been avoided in so many ways.

scum!liopoil wants to appear worried. town!liopoil is worried. I don't know how you can differenciate between them.
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liopoil

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #188 on: July 23, 2013, 12:08:37 pm »

Liopoil, those objections are so weak, they didn't even look like objections to the rest of us.  And now you're talking about how bad town is and how scum probably have a good idea of who the cop is.  That is a HUGE shift from seeming like you don't care and you think it's pointless but unharmful, which is how your quotes from yesterday read.

Also, I wasn't being hyperbolic, I was exaggerating for effect in my fake quotes of you (that came after the real quote).  I'm saying that I think you're panicking way way too much.  To a degree that I think may be artificial.
that's just not true. ... And I NEVER said it was unharmful.

You NEVER SAID IT WAS HARMFUL either.  Just that you didn't see how it could help.  Not seeing how it can help is a much much weaker objection than "scum knows who the cop is now".
I didn't say scum knows who the cop is either! and again, at the time, it seemed that there was no risk of anyone going through with the plan. No need to object when it doesn't appear to be a problem.
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UmbrageOfSnow

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #189 on: July 23, 2013, 12:15:40 pm »

Liopoil, knowing that something is bad for town, but doing it anyway (logging off without unvoting) is the prime reason I think you're scummy.

Liopoil has said that not unvoting was bad and he was upset at himself, but unvoting is so simple to do, and has major potential benefits if he is scum and he doesn't.

The fact that Liopoil said
what's the point in unvoting, the unique vote is already there. Sure, I should've have removed my vote before I left. I didn't think a wagon would build on him overnight, but I guess that's blitz.
Is a really weird defense to a think he already said was a mistake, and say again in the very next sentence.  Like he wants to justify not unvoting as being reasonable even though he knows it was a dumb move.  It reads to me like it was a smart move, and he didn't expect to get this much crap for it.  I think a town player would not be deviating from the self-flaggelation "I screwed up" feelings.  I think a scum player would be more indignant that it wasn't a big deal, because a scum player would be proud of himself to a certain extent.

And the fact is, not unvoting because you didn't think it would matter is terrible logic.  I don't think it would matter if I vote for EFHW, but as I have no reason to think EFHW is scum, I sure as hell am not going to do so, even if I can unvote later.  ESPECIALLY with blitz deadlines.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #190 on: July 23, 2013, 12:29:26 pm »

well, I didn't think of it. I didn't leave without unvoting on purpose. sorry.

when I said "what's the point in unvoting" I am saying it within the context of unique votes, as should have been obvious my the next phrase, which isn't underlined and bolded for some reason, "the unique vote is already there".
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #191 on: July 23, 2013, 12:37:48 pm »

that latest post really makes me start to think that umbrage is starting to be trying too hard to find reasons to suspect me, that is, he's pushing a mislynch.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #192 on: July 23, 2013, 12:49:34 pm »

Post Count (does not include pregame):

Ashersky: 39
Liopoil: 30
UoS: 28
Jimmmmm: 17
Nkirbit: 17
Sudgy: 14
EFHW: 11
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #193 on: July 23, 2013, 12:51:33 pm »

Well that accusation unfortunately comes at a time when I'm about to sign off for several hours (see my schedule post yesterday).

But no, I don't think I'm trying too hard, I think there is one big bright-flashing-letters reason why you're scummy, and that there are several extra things that are like pools of scummy gravy (yum).

I don't think you're scummy because you said you don't see the point of unvoting, I think you're scummy because of not unvoting and the saying you don't see the point fits better with a scum-narrative than a town-narrative.  I wouldn't ever vote someone just on that statement.

And for the record, I don't see how that can mean only in the context of unique votes, because you can't unvote a unique vote, but you sure as hell can unvote your ACTUAL VOTE that could have caused a mislynch.  Not unvoting is just as pointless as unvoting in context of unique votes: neither matters at all.

I don't like the phrasing though, but as I said, it's not my main thing.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #194 on: July 23, 2013, 12:55:02 pm »

that latest post really makes me start to think that umbrage is starting to be trying too hard to find reasons to suspect me, that is, he's pushing a mislynch.

I've been thinking the same thing.  To others that have played with him, does he usually tunnel this hard?

Also, Umbrage, I thought it out, and figured out that voting everybody else now has NEGATIVE impact:

1. If we don't vote everybody else:
     A. We get someone other than Umbrage or Ash in a wagon (but me and lio aren't voting for it), then we lynch him.  Nothing bad happens.
     B. We get someone other than Umbrage or Ash in a wagon (but me and lio aren't voting for it), then we don't want to lynch him.  He has less unique votes now, so it was a good thing we didn't vote them.
     C. We get Umbrage or Ash in a wagon, we don't want to lynch them anymore, then we vote for others to increase their unique vote count.  Nothing bad happens.
2. If we do vote everybody else:
     A. Same situation, nothing bad happens.
     B. Same situation, but now he has more unique votes, then we accidentally lynch him.  This is bad.
     C. Same situation, but we already fixed it earlier.  Nothing bad happens.

So you see, we do NOT want to vote everybody else, there is a possiblity of something bad happening.


Also, random question for TA: If two people are tied for most votes and unique votes, what happens?
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

liopoil

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #195 on: July 23, 2013, 01:00:06 pm »

Well that accusation unfortunately comes at a time when I'm about to sign off for several hours (see my schedule post yesterday).

But no, I don't think I'm trying too hard, I think there is one big bright-flashing-letters reason why you're scummy, and that there are several extra things that are like pools of scummy gravy (yum).

I don't think you're scummy because you said you don't see the point of unvoting, I think you're scummy because of not unvoting and the saying you don't see the point fits better with a scum-narrative than a town-narrative.  I wouldn't ever vote someone just on that statement.

And for the record, I don't see how that can mean only in the context of unique votes, because you can't unvote a unique vote, but you sure as hell can unvote your ACTUAL VOTE that could have caused a mislynch.  Not unvoting is just as pointless as unvoting in context of unique votes: neither matters at all.

I don't like the phrasing though, but as I said, it's not my main thing.
that's exactly the point. in the context of unique votes, there is no point to unvoting, hence "what's the point in unvoting". I am not saying that I was correct not to unvote at all. I should have unvoted.

that latest post really makes me start to think that umbrage is starting to be trying too hard to find reasons to suspect me, that is, he's pushing a mislynch.

I've been thinking the same thing.  To others that have played with him, does he usually tunnel this hard?

Also, Umbrage, I thought it out, and figured out that voting everybody else now has NEGATIVE impact:

--snip!--

So you see, we do NOT want to vote everybody else, there is a possiblity of something bad happening.


Also, random question for TA: If two people are tied for most votes and unique votes, what happens?
- umbrage does not have any completed games
- indeed, this is why we didn't do it
- I'm not TA, but I think it results in a no lynch.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #196 on: July 23, 2013, 01:08:29 pm »

I don't think UoS is tunneling.  I think he is trying to make his points clear, as he and liopoil had several misunderstandings during that conversation which now seem cleared up. 

I'm not ready to vote liopoil.  I'm finding sudgy scummier, actually, for declining the balance unique votes plan, putting Ash at L-1, and getting on the "UoS is tunneling" wagon. 
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #197 on: July 23, 2013, 01:10:12 pm »

scummy: UoS, EFHW (EFHW for lurking and silly reason for being suspicious of me. Also was first to "claim" cop, which encouraged others to do so as well.)
null: Jimmmmm, Nkirbit
towny: Liopoil, Ashersky, Sudgy

reasoning behind townread on sudgy: if he's scum, he's more aware about how he uses his vote. He wouldn't unvote promptly after realizing ash was at L-1, because if he was scum he would have already realized that and either wouldn't have placed the vote, or wouldn't unvote. (remember he unvoted 11 seconds BEFORE the claim). Also, he declined my plan, something that if he's scum he knows looks suspicious. plus my gut says he's town too :)
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #198 on: July 23, 2013, 01:12:44 pm »

Also, random question for TA: If two people are tied for most votes and unique votes, what happens?

No lynch.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #199 on: July 23, 2013, 01:13:56 pm »

I don't think UoS is tunneling.  I think he is trying to make his points clear, as he and liopoil had several misunderstandings during that conversation which now seem cleared up. 

I'm not ready to vote liopoil.  I'm finding sudgy scummier, actually, for declining the balance unique votes plan, putting Ash at L-1, and getting on the "UoS is tunneling" wagon. 
declining the balance unique votes plan was the correct move, as it was a bad plan, as shown by sudgy. I showed in my other post why I think he's town for putting ash at L-1, and why in the world is finding UoS suspicious scummy?

Vote: EFHW
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #200 on: July 23, 2013, 01:17:53 pm »

Vote Count 1.5

ashersky (1, u3): nkirbit
nkirbit (1, u1): ashersky
Liopoil (1, u1): UmbrageofSnow
EFHW (1, u1): Liopoil
UmbrageofSnow (0, u1):

Not voting (3): Jimmmm, EFHW, sudgy

With 7 players alive, it takes 4 to lynch
Deadline is 10 pm forum time on Tuesday, July 23rd

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #201 on: July 23, 2013, 01:25:33 pm »

guys, as of now, ashersky is still getting lynched...
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #202 on: July 23, 2013, 01:56:11 pm »

Nkirbit, I will vote for you if you don't unvote soon.

Also, lio, how many times have both of us been suspected on D1?  Three times now?  I can't remember...

EFHW, why do you say not going for the plan was bad when I showed that it wasn't a good idea?
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #203 on: July 23, 2013, 02:06:20 pm »

FoS: Nkirbit.

He's hidden, but he's online. http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?action=profile;area=summary;u=2143

he was last active 5 minutes ago.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #204 on: July 23, 2013, 02:20:49 pm »

Yes, I just got online.

Unvote

My account was set to be always offline.  Why isn't it set that why now?  How do I change that?
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #205 on: July 23, 2013, 02:22:18 pm »

Nkirbit, I will vote for you if you don't unvote soon.

Also, lio, how many times have both of us been suspected on D1?  Three times now?  I can't remember...

EFHW, why do you say not going for the plan was bad when I showed that it wasn't a good idea?

This is bad.  Threatening to vote people because they're offline is an easy excuse.  I didn't unvote because I wasn't here.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #206 on: July 23, 2013, 02:30:33 pm »

Yes, I just got online.

Unvote

My account was set to be always offline.  Why isn't it set that why now?  How do I change that?
it is set that way. you appear offline. but if I go to your profile, I can see the last time you were active. at about 1:58 it said you were last active at 1:55, then later when I checked again at 2:05 it said you were last active at 2:00.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #207 on: July 23, 2013, 02:33:20 pm »

Lio is posting more than his usual self
don't really think this is true... I'm usually on the upper-half of post counts. I was the highest town-aligned poster in mean girls, I think I was the most active while I was alive in bankers+S&N, and didn't exactly lurk through my other 3 completed games either.
Really?  I guess I was thinking about an ongoing game or something.  Still, you are in the town half of my reads anyway, and your unique vote thing was towny to suggest.
Sudgy is gaining scum points for not chiming in/agreeing.
Yay, when I'm not on I get more scum points!  My plan is working perfectly!
but are you on board for my plan?
If it gets close to the deadline, we could change our votes to change the uniqueness of them.  I don't think it's that important.

Here is where you said you didn't want to do it.  It is before liopoil said he thought it was a bad idea. 

And I completely disagree with both of you about "if it's close, I'll fix it then".  What if the other person is at L-1?  Then you can't balance it without lynching.  Sudgy's argument finds only one scenario in which balancing would be problematic - if we get close to mislynching someone, it will be easier to avoid if they have fewer unique votes than Ash or UoS.  Having unique votes unbalanced b/c of RVS is not a good precaution against mislynching, especially since it does make it more likely that Ash or UoS would be lynched, maybe mislynched. 

I have more to say, but no time right now.  Back later.

Re: Uos tunneling,
that latest post really makes me start to think that umbrage is starting to be trying too hard to find reasons to suspect me, that is, he's pushing a mislynch.

I've been thinking the same thing.  To others that have played with him, does he usually tunnel this hard?

Also, Umbrage, I thought it out, and figured out that voting everybody else now has NEGATIVE impact:

1. If we don't vote everybody else:
     A. We get someone other than Umbrage or Ash in a wagon (but me and lio aren't voting for it), then we lynch him.  Nothing bad happens.
     B. We get someone other than Umbrage or Ash in a wagon (but me and lio aren't voting for it), then we don't want to lynch him.  He has less unique votes now, so it was a good thing we didn't vote them.
     C. We get Umbrage or Ash in a wagon, we don't want to lynch them anymore, then we vote for others to increase their unique vote count.  Nothing bad happens.
2. If we do vote everybody else:
     A. Same situation, nothing bad happens.
     B. Same situation, but now he has more unique votes, then we accidentally lynch him.  This is bad.
     C. Same situation, but we already fixed it earlier.  Nothing bad happens.

So you see, we do NOT want to vote everybody else, there is a possiblity of something bad happening.


Also, random question for TA: If two people are tied for most votes and unique votes, what happens?
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #208 on: July 23, 2013, 02:35:28 pm »

Re: Uos tunneling,
that latest post really makes me start to think that umbrage is starting to be trying too hard to find reasons to suspect me, that is, he's pushing a mislynch.

I've been thinking the same thing.  To others that have played with him, does he usually tunnel this hard?

Also, Umbrage, I thought it out, and figured out that voting everybody else now has NEGATIVE impact:

1. If we don't vote everybody else:
     A. We get someone other than Umbrage or Ash in a wagon (but me and lio aren't voting for it), then we lynch him.  Nothing bad happens.
     B. We get someone other than Umbrage or Ash in a wagon (but me and lio aren't voting for it), then we don't want to lynch him.  He has less unique votes now, so it was a good thing we didn't vote them.
     C. We get Umbrage or Ash in a wagon, we don't want to lynch them anymore, then we vote for others to increase their unique vote count.  Nothing bad happens.
2. If we do vote everybody else:
     A. Same situation, nothing bad happens.
     B. Same situation, but now he has more unique votes, then we accidentally lynch him.  This is bad.
     C. Same situation, but we already fixed it earlier.  Nothing bad happens.

So you see, we do NOT want to vote everybody else, there is a possiblity of something bad happening.


Also, random question for TA: If two people are tied for most votes and unique votes, what happens?

I don't get this...  Could you explain what point you were trying to make with this?
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #209 on: July 23, 2013, 02:36:26 pm »

Ok, I have a couple minutes.  The end of my last post is about sudgy's comment re: tunneling.  He says "I've been thinking the same thing.  To others that have played with him, does he usually tunnel this hard?"  Obviously I don't know if sudgy was really thinking that, but to my ear it sounds like fanning flames. 

liopoil coming down so hard and even voting me (when I didn't vote him OR sudgy) makes me think I am on the right track.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #210 on: July 23, 2013, 02:37:34 pm »

Yes, I just got online.

Unvote

My account was set to be always offline.  Why isn't it set that why now?  How do I change that?
it is set that way. you appear offline. but if I go to your profile, I can see the last time you were active. at about 1:58 it said you were last active at 1:55, then later when I checked again at 2:05 it said you were last active at 2:00.

I know that information is available, but I really don't like making cases based on it.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #211 on: July 23, 2013, 02:58:28 pm »

Well, I was clearly wrong about Ash trying to build his case as scum to catch people.  My bad.  I still find it weird how my claim of not being a cop is sandwiched in between two claims of people being cop, and mine was taken seriously while the other two weren't.  You shouldn't have taken it seriously.  I may or may not be a cop.

I disagree with Snow's reasons on Lio.  He should have unvoted, but I would guess that it was more carelessness than intent to actually cause something on Ash.  My main suspicion from this goes to Sudgy.  Putting someone to L-1 can cause claims, and did here.  Sure, Ash was quick to claim, but I think it's Sudgy fault for putting him in a position to do so.

I'm also unhappy with his threat to vote me unless I unvoted soon.  I hadn't been online since Ash claimed.  I can't unvote if I'm not online.  Why are you trying to make me seem suspicious for not doing something that I was unable to do?

Vote: Sudgy
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #212 on: July 23, 2013, 03:12:14 pm »

I disagree with Snow's reasons on Lio.  He should have unvoted, but I would guess that it was more carelessness than intent to actually cause something on Ash.  My main suspicion from this goes to Sudgy.  Putting someone to L-1 can cause claims, and did here.  Sure, Ash was quick to claim, but I think it's Sudgy fault for putting him in a position to do so.

I did not realize it was putting ash to L-1, and I am extremely sorry I did it.

Quote
I'm also unhappy with his threat to vote me unless I unvoted soon.  I hadn't been online since Ash claimed.  I can't unvote if I'm not online.  Why are you trying to make me seem suspicious for not doing something that I was unable to do?

Vote: Sudgy

I had no idea when you were on last.  I was just asking/threatening you to unvote.  I didn't mean to make a big deal out of it.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #213 on: July 23, 2013, 05:34:48 pm »

Afternoon check-in:
1. I'm not clear how focussing on Liopoil for a couple hours this morning constitutes tunnelling, particularly when I also suspect Sudgy (although not as strongly, because I think the L-1 thing might have been too much of a derp for scum to not be aware of).  On the other hand, it forced a claim, so...

2. I believe nkirbit about logging on and not being unable to unvote before then.  He didn't put Ash at L-1 and he didn't RVS vote, so I'm willing to give him benefit of the doubt there.

3. Regarding Sudgy's threat to nkirbit: if nkirbit has himself set to always offline, it makes sense to threaten him when he isn't online because we can't be sure.  On the other hand, I think an actual vote at that time (rather than like early tonight or something) would have been a bit scummy and Sudgy could have been setting himself up for that.  I look at it as null-leaning-scummy, not a big thing against him, but not a great towny thing either.

4. Sudgy/Liopoil: Sudgy said something about both of you being suspected a lot on Day 1.  Do other players think this is true?  (I don't know, having never played with sudgy and only one on-going game with Liopoil)  If it is, does anyone have any ideas as to why it might be true?

It seems like getting mislynched a lot puts town in a tough place (for reasons that may not be your fault.)  It makes it easier for you to claim that as scum, and it makes it harder for us to be sure if we should not be lynching you as town.  I'm not sure what we can do about that, but my thought is to talk about what behaviors get you mislynched a lot, and I'm curious how you two have played in games when you are scum.  I hate to just ask this without input, but meta-arguments are something that seem important in this situation and to which I'm not really qualified to contribute.

Be back around 8ish, maybe a touch later.  (But definitely well before the deadline!)
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #214 on: July 23, 2013, 05:48:50 pm »

Also, his vote put me at L-2, which is awful dangerous in a 7-player blitz game.  But he didn't note it or take in into consideration.

I don't think it's dangerous.  If scum want to quickhammer you, I'd be ecstatic.  L-1 is the dangerous point, since we have only two scum.
Rereading, I don't get this.  Why does having 2 scum make L-1 more dangerous?  And isn't it always the most dangerous?  Are you saying L-2 isn't dangerous?  With 2 scum, it is.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #215 on: July 23, 2013, 05:54:43 pm »

Actually, I agree with Jimmmmm.  Vote: ashersky.  Either his plan was made before the game or he did to make himself seem like his town self, and he FoSed people who hadn't posted for a tiny bit.

These aren't reasons to vote someone.  You FOS'd nkirbit for not being on, did you not?  And because he could have made up the plan to seem towny, then therefore he did?  And Jimmmmm didn't vote Ashersky, or even find him scummy, so what is it you agree with?

vote: sudgy
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #216 on: July 23, 2013, 06:00:39 pm »

Afternoon check-in:
4. Sudgy/Liopoil: Sudgy said something about both of you being suspected a lot on Day 1.  Do other players think this is true?  (I don't know, having never played with sudgy and only one on-going game with Liopoil)  If it is, does anyone have any ideas as to why it might be true?

I think it is true lately, actually.  I don't know why - they don't have similar playstyles, so not for the same reasons, I'd guess.  But I don't think we can use that to sway our votes.  I haven't kept track of which of those times they actually were scum, for example
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #217 on: July 23, 2013, 06:12:59 pm »

I've never been mislynched, but more often than not when I am town there is a wagon on me D1. I don't know about sudgy, but I do remember that D1 in samurai and ninjas we both were town, both got wagons on us (and many people seemed confident that we were scumbuddies), but neither got lynched.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #218 on: July 23, 2013, 06:27:14 pm »

I'm here, and should be around until deadline.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #219 on: July 23, 2013, 06:27:40 pm »

I'm willing to vote sudgy, but won't put him to L-1 yet.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #220 on: July 23, 2013, 06:38:19 pm »

Theory post incoming.

Note to fellow town members: you may not want to respond directly to this post.  It will include a number of theory items which could be seen as helping scum with decisions during the night.  Remember that I know this as I write it, and take into consideration what they may think.  I may leave stuff out (if you think I did, maybe don't point it out).  I may add things in that are wrong.  TLDR: I am ensuring there is a ton of WIFOM here.

As town, we've outed the Doctor (me).  No one will counterclaim, as 1) I'm the real doctor, and 2) it's dumb for scum.  Town needs to focus on the fact that there are only two scum, and losing your only partner is very, very bad.

So, what happens?  We'll lynch someone today.  If we lynch town, we go into the night with 4 town and 2 scum.  If we lynch scum, we go into the night with 5 town and 1 scum.

Lynch town: I have a 40% chance of targeting someone protectable (2/5)
Lynch scum: I have a 60% chance of targeting someone protectable (3/5)

That's a huge difference, of course.

Scum will NK someone.  We know this.  The Doctor, a known PR, is the most likely target.  So I probably will die, and it won't matter who I target.  But I am NOT the most dangerous PR.  Here are some chances for the Cop:

Lynch town: Cop has a 50% chance of targeting scum (2/4)  (This is so good in fact, that I would have claimed no matter what today)
Lynch scum: Cop has a 25% chance of targeting scum (1/4)

That is awesome, as liopoil might say.  I'll take lynching scum today over 50% chance of finding scum tonight every time.

What's my point?  My point is, scum has a tough decision to make tonight, which I've laid out for them on a silver platter.  No matter who scum is, they would have arrived at this point themselves, so I don't mind posting it.  I threw out my odd 3-cop plan to add to the cofusino.  The main reason I did this post, though, is to help town scumhunt.

Remember, no matter what, D2 starts with one less town membr.  Having either myself OR the cop alive puts town in a great place, and that is guaranteed.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #221 on: July 23, 2013, 06:38:59 pm »

FoS: Nkirbit.

He's hidden, but he's online. http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?action=profile;area=summary;u=2143

he was last active 5 minutes ago.

This is not scummy.  It's a known thing people use.  He FoS'ed, didn't vote.  I'm okay with this particular post.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #222 on: July 23, 2013, 06:40:33 pm »

Afternoon check-in:
4. Sudgy/Liopoil: Sudgy said something about both of you being suspected a lot on Day 1.  Do other players think this is true?  (I don't know, having never played with sudgy and only one on-going game with Liopoil)  If it is, does anyone have any ideas as to why it might be true?

I think it is true lately, actually.  I don't know why - they don't have similar playstyles, so not for the same reasons, I'd guess.  But I don't think we can use that to sway our votes.  I haven't kept track of which of those times they actually were scum, for example

I will agree.  Both liopoil and sudgy are seem as scummy by most.  Sudgy is D1 lynch often, I think.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #223 on: July 23, 2013, 06:41:25 pm »

I want to point out that I think scum working together in a thread (i.e., protecting each other, given each other town reads, etc.) is MORE likely in this set-up, and in any set-up with only two scum.  This is especially true given this is blitz.

Hence, a sudgy-liopoil team makes sense.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #224 on: July 23, 2013, 06:42:32 pm »

Having re-read nkirbit, the only thing I really thought was worth mentioning was his interaction with ashersky. From the outset this gives him some scum points since I'm treating ash as confirmed Town. I did find his "I am no cop" a little weird and contrary to the plan, although not as damning as ash did. I do disagree with nkirbit's reaction to ash's reaction to him, that just struck me as regular ash. So slight scumread on nkirbit, half based on the opinion of someone who I believe to be Town, and half for what may have been an overreaction to ash's reaction.

My nkirbit read was the best out of many weak reads, and I was going to be gone, so I wanted to place my vote somewhere.  He's not my top scum read anymore by any means.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #225 on: July 23, 2013, 06:44:10 pm »

oh I see. well, we are in trouble though. We made a terrible mistake that could easily have been avoided in so many ways.

scum!liopoil wants to appear worried. town!liopoil is worried. I don't know how you can differenciate between them.

I think this is the scummiest post of the game.

I just laid out why I think town is in great shape, and that my unfortunately forced claim actually helps us overall.

So I see this, and other posts following my claim, plus not unvoting, plus interactions with sudgy, as scummy.  These types of "oh noes what did we do!" strike me as building up towncred.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #226 on: July 23, 2013, 06:45:53 pm »

I will vote: liopoil.

That's two votes for him, so no more voting there.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #227 on: July 23, 2013, 07:31:17 pm »

2.5 hours to dead line and nobody has anything to say?
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #228 on: July 23, 2013, 07:38:16 pm »

Actually, I agree with Jimmmmm.  Vote: ashersky.  Either his plan was made before the game or he did to make himself seem like his town self, and he FoSed people who hadn't posted for a tiny bit.

These aren't reasons to vote someone.  You FOS'd nkirbit for not being on, did you not?  And because he could have made up the plan to seem towny, then therefore he did?  And Jimmmmm didn't vote Ashersky, or even find him scummy, so what is it you agree with?

vote: sudgy

I agreed with the whole don't worry about unique votes thing.  You didn't include the previous paragraph in the quote, that was explaining it.

Anyway, it's getting later into the day, so who to place my vote on...  I'll Vote: EFHW for not acknowledging things I've said (this previous thing, my reason the plan was bad), I know it's not much, but there's not much to go on right now.

Also, sorry, this deadline doesn't work that well for me, so I might not be able to post much more today.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #229 on: July 23, 2013, 07:51:20 pm »

I am checking in on my phone, but won't be able to be terribly active.

I see what ash is saying with Lio, but still have sudgy as the scummiest. What do others think of him?
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #230 on: July 23, 2013, 08:04:53 pm »

I'm back, catching up now.  I'll be on until the deadline.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #231 on: July 23, 2013, 08:09:47 pm »

oh I see. well, we are in trouble though. We made a terrible mistake that could easily have been avoided in so many ways.

scum!liopoil wants to appear worried. town!liopoil is worried. I don't know how you can differenciate between them.

I think this is the scummiest post of the game.

I just laid out why I think town is in great shape, and that my unfortunately forced claim actually helps us overall.

So I see this, and other posts following my claim, plus not unvoting, plus interactions with sudgy, as scummy.  These types of "oh noes what did we do!" strike me as building up towncred.
your post does make a good point in that in claiming you give our cop a better chance of hitting scum. I had not considered that. I am unsure as to whether scum should try to hit the cop tonight though, and if they should, then your claim probably hurts town. But yes, I am feeling slightly better about our position, except that people seem to be leaning towards lynching me.

I too will be on until the deadline. I think EFHW is by far the best lynch.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #232 on: July 23, 2013, 08:10:28 pm »

oh I see. well, we are in trouble though. We made a terrible mistake that could easily have been avoided in so many ways.

scum!liopoil wants to appear worried. town!liopoil is worried. I don't know how you can differenciate between them.

I think this is the scummiest post of the game.

I just laid out why I think town is in great shape, and that my unfortunately forced claim actually helps us overall.

So I see this, and other posts following my claim, plus not unvoting, plus interactions with sudgy, as scummy.  These types of "oh noes what did we do!" strike me as building up towncred.
your post does make a good point in that in claiming you give our cop a better chance of hitting scum. I had not considered that. I am unsure as to whether scum should try to hit the cop tonight though, and if they should, then your claim probably hurts town. But yes, I am feeling slightly better about our position, except that people seem to be leaning towards lynching me.

I too will be on until the deadline. I think EFHW is by far the best lynch.

Why EFHW?
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #233 on: July 23, 2013, 08:13:25 pm »

I don't know why people are finding my not unvoting scummy (particularly ash and UoS). At the time of my not-unvote, there was no indication that it would matter. It was a mistake, but not one that was obviously going to hurt town. That is, I wouldn't do it as scum to try to hurt town because chances are it won't hurt town.

and like ashersky said, I now am not sure that claiming is bad for the doc, because it avoids the cop investigating the doc.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #234 on: July 23, 2013, 08:16:51 pm »

can we have a vote count please?
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #235 on: July 23, 2013, 08:17:19 pm »

I too will be on until the deadline. I think EFHW is by far the best lynch.

He's worried.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #236 on: July 23, 2013, 08:20:50 pm »

I don't know why people are finding my not unvoting scummy (particularly ash and UoS).

At the very least, it ended up being very anti-town.  You have admitted that.

What's scummy, I think, is that you explicitly pointed out that RVS votes were bad.  You explicitly stated that your vote on me was RVS.  You explicitly came up with a plan (good or bad, doesn't matter) to try to rectify the situation.

You did all three of those things while you were online.  You definitely could have (and should have) unvoted at the time.  I even asked you to.

That's why it is scummy.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #237 on: July 23, 2013, 08:26:35 pm »

why I think we should lynch EFHW today:

-lurking. I'm pretty sure she's still the lowest on the post count
-first to claim cop, encouraging others to do so too and so rolefishing.
-terrible reason for suspecting me:
Right now my tentative scumread is Liopoil, because he hasn't unvoted or voted everyone else, like he said he would, and for the bit of hyperbole in his first post.  Having a cop is great, but having one that can't be protected isn't super-awesome.

our cop is super-awesome. they should investigate scum and report back so we can win and stuff.

Also, scum got to talk during the confirmation stage.  It would be good strategy to put a couple votes on some players when it was easy and then say "whoops!".
uuhhh what? no hyperbole from me. Our cop is super-awesome. being macho is not much of a nerf. it nerfs the doctor more really. Consider him just like a cop in a game with no protective roles. still awesome. If he could be protected than the cop would be super-OP.
-terrible reasons for suspecting sudgy:
I'm finding sudgy scummier, actually, for declining the balance unique votes plan, putting Ash at L-1, and getting on the "UoS is tunneling" wagon. 
declining the balance unique votes plan was the correct move, as it was a bad plan, as shown by sudgy. I showed in my other post why I think he's town for putting ash at L-1, and why in the world is finding UoS suspicious scummy?

Vote: EFHW
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #238 on: July 23, 2013, 08:28:07 pm »

I don't know why people are finding my not unvoting scummy (particularly ash and UoS).

At the very least, it ended up being very anti-town.  You have admitted that.

What's scummy, I think, is that you explicitly pointed out that RVS votes were bad.  You explicitly stated that your vote on me was RVS.  You explicitly came up with a plan (good or bad, doesn't matter) to try to rectify the situation.

You did all three of those things while you were online.  You definitely could have (and should have) unvoted at the time.  I even asked you to.

That's why it is scummy.
where do you ask me to unvote while I am online?

the problem is, the actions you show above make just as little sense for me as scum.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #239 on: July 23, 2013, 08:29:17 pm »

why sudgy is a bad lynch:

towny: Sudgy

reasoning behind townread on sudgy: if he's scum, he's more aware about how he uses his vote. He wouldn't unvote promptly after realizing ash was at L-1, because if he was scum he would have already realized that and either wouldn't have placed the vote, or wouldn't unvote. (remember he unvoted 11 seconds BEFORE the claim). Also, he declined my plan, something that if he's scum he knows looks suspicious. plus my gut says he's town too :)
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #240 on: July 23, 2013, 08:30:00 pm »

I too will be on until the deadline. I think EFHW is by far the best lynch.

He's worried.
what?
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #241 on: July 23, 2013, 08:34:28 pm »

I don't think EFHW's reasons for suspecting you and sudgy are all that terrible.  In fact, I don't think they're that far off from Ash's reasons, and Ash is pretty much a confirmed town.

And once again, the claiming cop thing doesn't seem any more like rolefishing than Ash proposing it or me jumping on it like a few minutes later or whatever it was, I don't see  that plan as rolefishing at all.  Wasn't the point for it not to be rolefishing?

Why else do you think EFHW is the best lynch?
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #242 on: July 23, 2013, 08:36:26 pm »

Liopoil, the best way to clear this up: why did you not unvote Ash before you logged off?

You said you didn't think it would matter, but that isn't a reason, and obviously it did matter, and I know I think you should have worried that it would matter.  You seem perfectly likely to worry about other things that could matter but may not, hell you were the one to point out the potential for RVS votes to screw us down the line, so why did you not worry about it?
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #243 on: July 23, 2013, 08:38:04 pm »

Vote Count 1.efhw

ashersky (0, u3):
nkirbit (0, u1):
UmbrageofSnow (0, u1):
Liopoil (2, u2): UmbrageofSnow, ashersky
sudgy (2, u2): nkirbit, EFHW
EFHW (2, u2): liopoil, sudgy

Not voting (1): Jimmmm

With 7 players alive, it takes 4 to lynch

[/quote]
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liopoil

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #244 on: July 23, 2013, 08:40:54 pm »

well, she said in her sudgy thing that he was suspicious of him for declining the plan, which is actually a townie thing and he had just shown why the plan was bad... in that post it seemed like she wanted to mislynch sudgy, but needed to come up with a reason to justify it.

her reason for being suspicious of me was that she thought I was exaggerating. 1) I wasn't exaggerating, and 2) why the hell is exaggerating scummy. If that's not a terrible reason I don't know what is.

apart from pushing too bad lynches for bad reasons, there's the lurking, and I do think that jumping on ash's plan was rolefishing, because ash's plan is bad.

and I am also slightly suspicious of UoS for buddying EFHW, but that's getting in the realm of calling the scumteam, and I don't believe in doing that D1.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #245 on: July 23, 2013, 08:42:44 pm »

So we have a three-way tie, with two of the three suspects both voting for me.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #246 on: July 23, 2013, 08:45:54 pm »

Liopoil, the best way to clear this up: why did you not unvote Ash before you logged off?

You said you didn't think it would matter, but that isn't a reason, and obviously it did matter, and I know I think you should have worried that it would matter.  You seem perfectly likely to worry about other things that could matter but may not, hell you were the one to point out the potential for RVS votes to screw us down the line, so why did you not worry about it?
I'm not totally sure, but it makes me feel pretty stupid. I wasn't really stressing about it because it shouldn't have mattered if people didn't run ashersky up to L-1, which was a mistake even if they do think that he's scum because of my RVS vote. Look, I can't justify why I didn't do it because there was no reason for me not to do it!
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #247 on: July 23, 2013, 08:46:54 pm »

So we have a three-way tie, with two of the three suspects both voting for me.

and I am also slightly suspicious of UoS for buddying EFHW, but that's getting in the realm of calling the scumteam, and I don't believe in doing that D1.

These two lines are funny to me.  I think buddying one person specifically could be a scumtell in this game.  And that points to liopoil/sudgy more often than anyone else.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #248 on: July 23, 2013, 08:47:10 pm »

Ashersky has said he'd vote for sudgy, and I'm willing to switch to liopoil if needed, so I guess we need to hear from Jimmmmm, unless nkirbit or UoS decide to switch to someone else.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #249 on: July 23, 2013, 08:49:52 pm »

Jimmmmm, get in here and vote!

nkibit, you were active 13 minutes ago. this is the second time. get in here!

I'm suspicious of nkirbit for that alone, and then there's also his vote on the ash wagon which he shouldn't have placed because my RVS vote was still there.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #250 on: July 23, 2013, 08:50:03 pm »

Ashersky has said he'd vote for sudgy, and I'm willing to switch to liopoil if needed, so I guess we need to hear from Jimmmmm, unless nkirbit or UoS decide to switch to someone else.

Jimmmmm seemed okay with the new deadline, so I expect he'll be here.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #251 on: July 23, 2013, 08:51:02 pm »

If we are wrong on lio/sudgy, it is in scum's best interest to lurk their way to the deadline.  So slight FoS on nkirbit/Jimmmmm, given activity and/or previous statements on availability/deadline movement.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #252 on: July 23, 2013, 08:51:07 pm »

Well I think I'd probably be willing to switch to Sudgy.  I thought he was a bit scummy earlier, then I got to questioning it.  I'm rereading the thread now, I'll give you a final opinion when I'm done, but I don't think you should rule me out as a potential Sudgy vote by any means.

I'm unlikely to vote for my bestest bestest buddy EFHW.  (I only just found out EFHW was a girl, but I'm still picturing her with a moustache.  A big curly moustache.)

(No, I'm not saying I have a townread on EFHW, I'd say it's a null read right now, but it certainly isn't a scum read, so I'm not comfortable putting a vote there.)
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #253 on: July 23, 2013, 08:51:48 pm »

We still have like an hour and 8 minutes, right?
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #254 on: July 23, 2013, 08:59:28 pm »

I'm here!
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #255 on: July 23, 2013, 08:59:56 pm »

I'm here!
wanna vote? preferably for EFHW?
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #256 on: July 23, 2013, 09:00:40 pm »

vote count??
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #257 on: July 23, 2013, 09:09:59 pm »

Vote Count 1.efhw

ashersky (0, u3):
nkirbit (0, u1):
UmbrageofSnow (0, u1):
Liopoil (2, u2): UmbrageofSnow, ashersky
sudgy (2, u2): nkirbit, EFHW
EFHW (2, u2): liopoil, sudgy

Not voting (1): Jimmmm

With 7 players alive, it takes 4 to lynch

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #258 on: July 23, 2013, 09:10:52 pm »

TA and I are on the way home.. We're out later than we expected. Will be home in about 15 minutes. Catching up on my phone now.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #259 on: July 23, 2013, 09:13:32 pm »

TA and I are on the way home.. We're out later than we expected. Will be home in about 15 minutes. Catching up on my phone now.
okay. that explains my seeing your activity on your profile. all good!
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #260 on: July 23, 2013, 09:14:55 pm »

I don't buy your reasoning, Lio.  Scum should be more careful than sudgy was, but we have use this reasoning to make towny reads again and again. I think the chance of forcing a claim is well worth it, knowing that everyone will say, "oh, if he were sc he wouldn't be so careless."  We always say that!
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liopoil

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #261 on: July 23, 2013, 09:15:31 pm »

I don't buy your reasoning, Lio.  Scum should be more careful than sudgy was, but we have use this reasoning to make towny reads again and again. I think the chance of forcing a claim is well worth it, knowing that everyone will say, "oh, if he were sc he wouldn't be so careless."  We always say that!
but he unvoted BEFORE the claim!!!!
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nkirbit

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #262 on: July 23, 2013, 09:16:22 pm »

Well, that's a good point.  If he wanted a claim, he would t have unvoted.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #263 on: July 23, 2013, 09:17:09 pm »

Well, that's true. If he was role fishing he wouldn't have unvoted
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #264 on: July 23, 2013, 09:17:26 pm »

exactly!! that's why I think it isn't scummy, and actually read it as towny because scum would realize that they were putting ash at L-1.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #265 on: July 23, 2013, 09:18:16 pm »

Thought my message poofed. Posting from a phone is weird

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #266 on: July 23, 2013, 09:19:02 pm »

unvote
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liopoil

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #267 on: July 23, 2013, 09:20:19 pm »

40 minutes, people. Jimmm, caught up yet?
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #268 on: July 23, 2013, 09:22:31 pm »

Back on a computer.  Sorry, was out playing board games longer than I expected.

 So the wagons right now are EFHW and Lio, since I agree with Lio that Sudgy is a bad lynch.  I will review both of those cases quickly.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #269 on: July 23, 2013, 09:24:34 pm »

Vote Count 1.6


Liopoil (2, u2): UmbrageofSnow, Ashersky
EFHW (2, u2): Liopoil, Sudgy
Sudgy (1, u2): EFHW
ashersky (0, u3)
nkirbit (0, u1):
UmbrageofSnow (0, u1):

Not voting (2): Jimmmm, Nkirbit

With 7 players alive, it takes 4 to lynch
Deadline is 10 pm forum time on Tuesday, July 23rd
« Last Edit: July 23, 2013, 09:25:53 pm by Twistedarcher »
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liopoil

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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #270 on: July 23, 2013, 09:24:56 pm »

I expect now that a sudgy lynch does not look like it is going to happen, EFHW will move her vote to me.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #271 on: July 23, 2013, 09:25:01 pm »

Also, his vote put me at L-2, which is awful dangerous in a 7-player blitz game.  But he didn't note it or take in into consideration.

I don't think it's dangerous.  If scum want to quickhammer you, I'd be ecstatic.  L-1 is the dangerous point, since we have only two scum.
Rereading, I don't get this.  Why does having 2 scum make L-1 more dangerous?  And isn't it always the most dangerous?  Are you saying L-2 isn't dangerous?  With 2 scum, it is.

I'm saying that the only way L-2 turns out poorly is if both of the scum quickhammer town.  And doing so would reveal their scumminess.. if we can sacrifice a town member today to nail both the scum, that's a fantastic trade.

L-1 is dangerous because one scum can hammer without outing their partner.

I guess L-2 is dangerous in that it allowed Sudgy to vote Ash to L-1, but I think the responsibility to make sure you're not putting a player to L-1 has to rest with Sudgy there.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #272 on: July 23, 2013, 09:25:56 pm »

I'm definitely not excited about the Sudgy case.  I think I have enough uncertainty that if it were that or a no lynch, I'd be willing to switch to Sudgy to avoid a no-lynch, but the fact that he switched of Ash before he claimed does buy him a fair bit of slack for that vote.

Liopoil is still my prefered lynch.  I don't like the case on EFHW such as it is.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #273 on: July 23, 2013, 09:28:03 pm »

Oh, a vote moved off Sudgy while I was rereading.  Well in that case, I vote we move away from lynching Sudgy altogether.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #274 on: July 23, 2013, 09:30:10 pm »

why I think we should lynch EFHW today:

-lurking. I'm pretty sure she's still the lowest on the post count
-first to claim cop, encouraging others to do so too and so rolefishing.
-terrible reason for suspecting me:
Right now my tentative scumread is Liopoil, because he hasn't unvoted or voted everyone else, like he said he would, and for the bit of hyperbole in his first post.  Having a cop is great, but having one that can't be protected isn't super-awesome.

our cop is super-awesome. they should investigate scum and report back so we can win and stuff.

Also, scum got to talk during the confirmation stage.  It would be good strategy to put a couple votes on some players when it was easy and then say "whoops!".
uuhhh what? no hyperbole from me. Our cop is super-awesome. being macho is not much of a nerf. it nerfs the doctor more really. Consider him just like a cop in a game with no protective roles. still awesome. If he could be protected than the cop would be super-OP.
-terrible reasons for suspecting sudgy:
I'm finding sudgy scummier, actually, for declining the balance unique votes plan, putting Ash at L-1, and getting on the "UoS is tunneling" wagon. 
declining the balance unique votes plan was the correct move, as it was a bad plan, as shown by sudgy. I showed in my other post why I think he's town for putting ash at L-1, and why in the world is finding UoS suspicious scummy?

Vote: EFHW

How does being the first to claim cop amount to rolefishing?  None of those claims at that point in the game should be taken seriously... Can you explain how explaining others to be the second or third cop amounts to rolefishing?  It just looks like it amounts to following the plan, to me.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #275 on: July 23, 2013, 09:30:21 pm »

town to scum:

EFHW
UoS
Jimmmmm (pretty much null)
nkirbit
sudgy
ashersky
liopoil

I could go for a UoS lynch, if there is sufficient support for it and enough people are online in the next half hour...
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #276 on: July 23, 2013, 09:30:37 pm »

EFHW: Care to move your vote to Liopoil, or is there someone else you think we should be considering?
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #277 on: July 23, 2013, 09:32:25 pm »

How does being the first to claim cop amount to rolefishing?  None of those claims at that point in the game should be taken seriously... Can you explain how explaining others to be the second or third cop amounts to rolefishing?  It just looks like it amounts to following the plan, to me.
The plan wasn't neccessarily going to happen. EFHW made it happen. The plan can only help scum find our cop. the plan IS rolefishing, but that's tempered a bit by the fact that ash, who proposed it, is IC...
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #278 on: July 23, 2013, 09:32:36 pm »

EFHW: Care to move your vote to Liopoil, or is there someone else you think we should be considering?
don't worry, she will.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #279 on: July 23, 2013, 09:33:25 pm »

How does being the first to claim cop amount to rolefishing?  None of those claims at that point in the game should be taken seriously... Can you explain how explaining others to be the second or third cop amounts to rolefishing?  It just looks like it amounts to following the plan, to me.
The plan wasn't neccessarily going to happen. EFHW made it happen. The plan can only help scum find our cop. the plan IS rolefishing, but that's tempered a bit by the fact that ash, who proposed it, is IC...

I still disagree that my plan was helping scum.  Do you know who the Cop is now?  I don't.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #280 on: July 23, 2013, 09:33:30 pm »

For what it's worth, I agree with Lio that EFHW made a weak case on him about the "super cop" thing.

1)  It's not clear if Lio is even exaggerating here.. maybe the cop is "super good".  It's certainly more powerful than the doctor, right?

2)  Even if Lio is exaggerating, I'm not sure that's particularly a scum tell.  I guess scum do "bend the truth" more, since they're not actually trying to prove the truth, but is a scum really going to go out and lie about how useful a role is?  What's the incentive?

Now to re-read the case on Lio.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #281 on: July 23, 2013, 09:33:55 pm »

I don't see scum!EFHW here.  I'm thinking back to Shakespeare EFHW and not seeing any meta-connections.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #282 on: July 23, 2013, 09:34:11 pm »

How does being the first to claim cop amount to rolefishing?  None of those claims at that point in the game should be taken seriously... Can you explain how explaining others to be the second or third cop amounts to rolefishing?  It just looks like it amounts to following the plan, to me.
The plan wasn't neccessarily going to happen. EFHW made it happen. The plan can only help scum find our cop. the plan IS rolefishing, but that's tempered a bit by the fact that ash, who proposed it, is IC...

I still disagree that my plan was helping scum.  Do you know who the Cop is now?  I don't.
nope, but I have a slightly better idea than I did before. Luckily, I'm not scum.
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Re: ZM15: Time for Something Completely Different (Day 1!)
« Reply #283 on: July 23, 2013, 09:34:50 pm »

town to scum:

EFHW
UoS
Jimmmmm (pretty much null)
nkirbit
sudgy
ashersky
liopoil


If lio is scum, I see sudgy as his partner.

Also, everyone needs to do one of these lists right now, before the day ends.
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f.ds Mafia Board Moderator

2013, 2014, 2015 Mafia Mod of the Year

Games (30): Mafia: 17, 21, 24, 31, 39, 43, 67, 72, 86 || Newbie: 7 || RMM: 6, 7, 10, 20, 22, 26, 32, 45 || Blitz: 4-7, X, 17-19, 22, 24 || BM: 14, 19

2015 f.ds Representative, World Forum Mafia Championships
2013, 2014 Mafia Player of the Year (Tie)

Town: 47 Games, 24 Wins
Scum: 22 Games, 13 Wins
11x MVP: M30, M83, ZM16, M25, M38, M61, M76, RMM5, RMM41, RMM46, M51

liopoil

  • Margrave
  • ***