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Author Topic: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread  (Read 21081 times)

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Awaclus

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #25 on: July 13, 2013, 08:26:15 am »
+1

"Empty pile" is not equal to "Not in Supply" in definition of Dominion, I think.

It is not, but "empty pile" implies "not in the supply". You can see this from the fact that Band of Misfits tells you to play it "as if it was a card in the supply", and that you cannot play Band of Misfits as a card from an empty pile.
It's the cards that aren't in the supply and BoM cards about cards. The pile is still in the supply, and Ambassador cares about piles.

That was my point, you know. NoMoreFun's logic was that if the cards are covered up, they cannot be returned with Ambassador, because they are not in the supply. As you pointed out, the pile still is, so they can.

What he would have to aim for would be the actual pile not being part of the supply anymore, as with Spoils. To reach that, it has to say so on the card itself. Simply covering the pile doesn't help, rule-wise.

The problem is that simply declaring "Put this on any kingdom card supply pile. While it is there, that pile is not part of the supply" wouldn't solve it, because Fool could not be gained anymore and the pile would stay blocked forever.
You can declare "Put this is on any kingdom card supply pile. While it is there, that pile is the Fool pile".
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NoMoreFun

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #26 on: July 13, 2013, 04:31:23 pm »
0

I'm thinking something like Dominion: Household or Dominion: Abode for the expansion name, as it sort of works into the location theme, and has a nice bit of irony with Cells. I'll rename some cards to correspond better with types of house, household chores etc.

Some images:

« Last Edit: July 13, 2013, 04:41:13 pm by NoMoreFun »
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NoMoreFun

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #27 on: July 13, 2013, 05:26:53 pm »
0

One thing I have come to appreciate is that the official Dominion cards have no set art style, which makes finding card art a lot of fun.



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eHalcyon

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #28 on: July 13, 2013, 06:52:21 pm »
0

Is the art public domain?  If not, the courteous thing to do is ask the artist, and at least include the attribution at the bottom.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #29 on: July 13, 2013, 09:16:35 pm »
+1

Is the art public domain?  If not, the courteous thing to do is ask the artist, and at least include the attribution at the bottom.

I just googled various things; I don't even remember where some of these pictures came from. These are just fan cards for now; if I ever get around to putting the expansion up on BGG I'll be more careful.
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Asper

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #30 on: July 16, 2013, 08:46:22 am »
0

I like the idea for Musketeers, but isn't it a bit weak? It's a Peddler split in three, but it is terminal, which makes it bad where Peddler would be useful. Also i feel it's very hard to build a strategy on a bonus that takes two turns to happen, and the additional card is not even Militia-safe. And of course there's the old duration-reshuffle-thing. I'd probably make it a 2$ and maybe think about having the action this turn instead of next.

Drab Emordnilap

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #31 on: July 16, 2013, 11:33:58 am »
+1

Strictly better Lab?

EDIT: In reference to Escape Artist.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2013, 12:20:36 pm by Drab Emordnilap »
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achmed_sender

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #32 on: July 16, 2013, 11:40:25 am »
0

Strictly better Lab?

Of course not. Firstly, there is the same drawback Caravan has, the duration part. Secondly, the additional card has only little effect if your opponent plays a handsize-reducer. Finally, there is a quite weak bonus for the not-duration turn, so it is not strictly but most of the time weaker than Caravan, so $3 seems fine.
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Asper

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #33 on: July 16, 2013, 11:59:45 am »
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Strictly better Lab?

Of course not. Firstly, there is the same drawback Caravan has, the duration part. Secondly, the additional card has only little effect if your opponent plays a handsize-reducer. Finally, there is a quite weak bonus for the not-duration turn, so it is not strictly but most of the time weaker than Caravan, so $3 seems fine.

I'm pretty sure this was about Escape Artist.
It's not exactly "strictly" better than Lab because in some situations you'd probably want a cell in your hand. But as most of the time you wouldn't, it's better nonetheless.

NoMoreFun

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #34 on: July 16, 2013, 02:03:12 pm »
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Strictly better Lab?

EDIT: In reference to Escape Artist.

No because you've got the cell in your hand to deal with. Other than the first one, which gives everyone a Cell, it then goes on  to be largely identical to Lab.

I just thought the "you may play a cell" wording was too wonky.
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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #35 on: July 16, 2013, 02:12:12 pm »
0

Strictly better Lab?

EDIT: In reference to Escape Artist.

No because you've got the cell in your hand to deal with. Other than the first one, which gives everyone a Cell, it then goes on  to be largely identical to Lab.

I just thought the "you may play a cell" wording was too wonky.

Oh, it says "each player", not "each other player".
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ConMan

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #36 on: July 16, 2013, 07:05:55 pm »
+1

Is the art public domain?  If not, the courteous thing to do is ask the artist, and at least include the attribution at the bottom.

I just googled various things; I don't even remember where some of these pictures came from. These are just fan cards for now; if I ever get around to putting the expansion up on BGG I'll be more careful.
The Cell image is from Apollo Justice: Ace Attorney.
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LastFootnote

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #37 on: July 16, 2013, 08:47:56 pm »
0

The Cell image is from Apollo Justice: Ace Attorney.

Man, I'm replaying that chapter right now, and I still didn't catch that.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2013, 10:21:03 pm by LastFootnote »
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ConMan

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #38 on: July 17, 2013, 12:21:47 am »
+1

The Cell image is from Apollo Justice: Ace Attorney.
Man, I'm replaying that chapter right now, and I still didn't catch that.
I noticed it because I first thought "Why is that a cell? It's clearly a library, what with the bookshelves and comfy chair. No wait, it's got bars, so it's actually a prison cell. Why is that familiar? Oh yeah!"
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Asper

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #39 on: July 17, 2013, 08:31:52 am »
+1

The Cell image is from Apollo Justice: Ace Attorney.
Man, I'm replaying that chapter right now, and I still didn't catch that.
I noticed it because I first thought "Why is that a cell? It's clearly a library, what with the bookshelves and comfy chair. No wait, it's got bars, so it's actually a prison cell. Why is that familiar? Oh yeah!"

"Put the prisoner in... the comfy chair!!"

LastFootnote

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #40 on: July 25, 2013, 11:48:04 pm »
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NoMoreFun, any plans to update the OP? I was going to critique the cards, but WarFreak said pretty much everything I was going to. I'm interested to see where the set will go next.
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sudgy

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #41 on: July 26, 2013, 12:10:02 am »
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Just a random note, the Cell should say "Return this to the Cell pile" instead of the whole weird trashing thingy.  Unless you were wanting it to not be trashable...
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NoMoreFun

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #42 on: July 26, 2013, 02:26:11 am »
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NoMoreFun, any plans to update the OP? I was going to critique the cards, but WarFreak said pretty much everything I was going to. I'm interested to see where the set will go next.

Much later on. Not really paying much attention ATM. Next update will be flagged with a post.

Just a random note, the Cell should say "Return this to the Cell pile" instead of the whole weird trashing thingy.  Unless you were wanting it to not be trashable...

I don't want it to be trashable. The idea is that Cells are weak junk that nonetheless remain an ever present force throughout the game.

I might change escape artist to

Blacksmith
Action/Attack - $5
+2 Cards
Each player may reveal a Cell from his hand. If he doesn't, he gains a Cell from the Cell pile, putting it in his hand.
Reveal a card from your hand. If it's an...
Action Card: Play it
Treasure Card: +$1
Victory Card: +1 Card
Trash the revealed card.

This is essentially merging 2 cards that I think are too good for $4, and not good enough for $5.
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Guy Srinivasan

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #43 on: July 26, 2013, 01:22:09 pm »
+1

Capital
Action - $3
+1 Action
You may play an action card from your hand.
Draw until you have 5 cards in hand.
Capital is not in tail form!

Calling subroutines from cards where the call is not the last thing that card can do this turn introduces lots of tracking... Picture playing Capital, (King's Court, (King's Court x3, (Vault x3), (Capital x3 (Smithy) draw to 5 (Tactician) draw to 5 (Cellar) draw to 5) (Vault x3)) draw to 5.

What about
Capital
Action - $3
+1 Action
You may set aside an action card from your hand.
Draw until you have 5 cards in hand.
If you set aside an action card, play it.

Or did you want the recursion trickeries and tracking that comes with it?
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #44 on: July 27, 2013, 01:05:09 am »
0

Capital
Action - $3
+1 Action
You may play an action card from your hand.
Draw until you have 5 cards in hand.
Capital is not in tail form!

Calling subroutines from cards where the call is not the last thing that card can do this turn introduces lots of tracking... Picture playing Capital, (King's Court, (King's Court x3, (Vault x3), (Capital x3 (Smithy) draw to 5 (Tactician) draw to 5 (Cellar) draw to 5) (Vault x3)) draw to 5.

What about
Capital
Action - $3
+1 Action
You may set aside an action card from your hand.
Draw until you have 5 cards in hand.
If you set aside an action card, play it.

Or did you want the recursion trickeries and tracking that comes with it?
I noticed this as well, but then I thought "well Procession does that, so it can't be that big of a deal".  I think your version might be too strong.  I think the idea was that if you use it in a Village-Smithy type engine, the "draw up to 5" doesn't help.  With your version, in a village-smithy type engine, you draw up to 5, then draw with your drawer, which is a lot more powerful.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #45 on: July 28, 2013, 06:59:42 am »
0

I just noticed how well Capital combos with Tactician. I could probably leave it as one of those Trader/Feodum combos (obvious combo that is super strong).

I'm not worried about the tracking though. It's no worse than Procession.

Really I just want to include WW's card "Production Village" in the set, but I can't do that obviously so I came up with something a little different.
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Asper

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #46 on: August 05, 2013, 07:35:03 am »
0

Enchanter has issues. Your original wording has (as mentioned by others) the problem that "when play" happens before resolving the card, which means Cantrips can act as cursers. Also if i play a terminal card directly after a Village, no Curses are given.

There was Warfreak2's idea to make it look at cards in play, but that solution didn't really help. If the hex card was a Village and i played two terminals after that, players still got a curse. Vice versa, if a play a Village and then a terminal hex card, no curses.

To make it work the way you intended it to do, you would have to do a awful, long wording like this:
"When a player just finishes resolving a card from the pile with the hex token on it, if he has the same number of actions remaining as he had when playing it, each other player gains a curse"
...I think the card idea is nice, but not nice enough to be worth the trouble.

Another thing, one i really don't like, is that the Curse can't be moated even if the card is an attack.

NoMoreFun

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #47 on: January 26, 2014, 02:51:31 am »
0

OP has been updated. There are now 35 cards in what I think is a reasonable ratio of card types and costs. Next step will be making images although I currently lack the ability to do so. I have incorporated some feedback (although not all of it; Revolutionary is still around :P), and it's very helpful so keep it coming.

I've tried to include at least 3 cards of any novel concept (when reveal, pure reaction, durations, event users, cell givers). There may be too many attacks but some of them are very benign like Beauty and Rear Admiral, however there's also Prospector, Patrol and Enchanter which are attacks without the type (I'm weighing up whether to give it to prospector; I don't think the punishment for having a Lighthouse or a Moat should be missing out on gold). In general I've tried to make a lot of interactivity; especially with single cards this set is trying to get away from "group solitaire".

EDIT: A few wording errors like with Retreat.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2014, 03:03:25 am by NoMoreFun »
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NoMoreFun

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #48 on: January 26, 2014, 09:56:33 am »
0

I can't modify the op on my phone.

Barge is "when gain, you may trash a card from your hand" as always. Package is "3 differently named cheaper cards". Whittler should be "do this 3 times", not infinitely doable which makes trashing ok (lots of cards are good with fortress). There's probably more errors
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NoMoreFun

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #49 on: January 31, 2014, 11:19:03 pm »
0

I'm finding "Package" very difficult to get right. In it's current wording you can gain a province with it just for playing a single highway, bridge or the trinket "chain" (with which you could actually open Province). However since the cards have to be differently named, you have to gain a province, a curse and a copper. That doesn't seem too overpowered. I might make chain only reduce the cost of non-victory cards. Wordings like "gain 3 cards with a total cost of up to $2 more than this card" always seemed a bit wonky.

I just wanted to generalise "cache" into a Single card. If cache didn't exist, "when you would gain this, instead gain a Gold and 2 Coppers" could have been a nice single card. Package, even without the "differently named" condition, can coexist with Cache as on boards with both it and Cache, you can include a Cache as one of the cards you gain, so it's not valueless on the board.

I also bumped up the cost of Retreat. The delayed apprentice effect is a good $5 (even though compared to Apprentice it's terminal and delayed), but the "while this is in play" effect is both a Royal Seal effect and a Caravan effect, and when you trash an expensive card, you have a very good idea of what a good number of the cards you're going to get next turn are, and you can therefore buy cards appropriately to set up a megaturn. This is good but when you compare it to Tactician it pretty much has to be a $6 card.

Unless any ideas prove to be unworkable the final set is going to resemble the OP now, so I'm really looking forward to hearing any feedback. If you already looked before, have another look as there are some new ideas like "Labyrinth".

Other things:
  • Musketeers is now Amigos since Musketeers contradicts the vaguely medieval theme. If that does too then I'll change it to "Stooges".
  • Revolutionary wasn't popular, but it's still here. I think it's quite different to Advisor, and is a draw to X that even more heavily emphasises the advantages of Draw to X cards (they get better when you can reduce your handsize on your own terms).
  • I made Patrol a topdecker since it rightfully seemed weak, which led me to make Oppressor a bottom decker (Cells have to be self moating, which gives 3 possibilities as to where they can go). Oppressor seems a bit weak, but giving it a card or coin makes it seem too similar to Cartographer. Fete is only a bottom decker because otherwise the entire "secret gain" thing is ruined, and the wording also works out quite nicely.
  • Now all the non-single durations are terminals that increase your handsize in a later turn, but I feel like they're all different enough and also different enough from Haven, Caravan, Wharf and Tactician. Amigos is the most similar to existing cards but it's the most elegant way of doing the "terminal now, village later" thing (so there's strategy in pacing out the cards), and has the novelty of being a triple duration (with the wording being that way for easier tracking, plus the novelty of being a caravan that isn't protected from attacks).
  • The set has quite a few ways of reacting to Junk Attacks (Bargain, Barge, Repair), especially in a set that introduces a new kind of Junk, but in a set of 35 cards I think that's fine. Repair is truly awful at trashing curses, so it can block them.
  • Rules Clarification for Conquest and Vendor: If there's no such combination of cards that satisfy their conditions (eg you play conquest, all the kingdom cards cost $4 or more and coppers, curses, estates and silvers are empty), then you gain nothing.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 11:38:53 pm by NoMoreFun »
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