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NoMoreFun

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Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« on: July 12, 2013, 07:08:42 am »
+7

Update as of 18/08/2014 - I am now in the process of making card art

So I stop spamming the board with topics, here's what I have so far on the fan expansion I'm working on. This thread will eventually be replaced by one with an OP of all the cards neatly laid out with art.

The theme of the set is things that effect every player, largely in a symmetrical way. In this set, the cards that aren't interactive are negligible compared to the cards that are. It's up to you to work this chaos to your advantage. The set includes Events which can be unpredictable and affect everyone, Trinkets, which differentiate players from the start going into the interactive environment, and Cells - a kind of junk that remains a threat throughout the game, but can also be used to your advantage.

The set has 35 Kingdom Cards, but only 300 printed cards. There are 24 normal action cards (including one victory card), and 11 "single" cards (which are also Kingdoms).

There are:
23 normal kingdom cards (23*11=253 cards)
1 victory kingdom card (13 cards)
11 "Single" kingdom cards
10 Events
6 Trinkets
7 Cells



SPECIAL CARDS


Trinkets: Everyone replaces one of their starting coppers with one Trinket (with selection similar to Shelters/Colonies). You get to choose which Trinket you get in reverse player order.

Events: When a card asks you to resolve an event, reveal the it and follow the text on it, then return it to the bottom of the event deck. The events are listed at the bottom, and all involve an effect that affects all 4 players.

Single: If a card is of the type "Single", then there is only one of them in the supply (the randomiser). Furthermore, the card does not count towards the number of empty piles under any circumstances. Using more than 2 "single" cards in a game is not recommended unless you know what you're doing.

Cell: Similar to spoils. These are not in the supply, and the number of them is quite small (because they are meant to be easy to get rid of, self moating and infinitely recurring). They appear as follows:

Cell
Action - $0*
Discard any number of cards from your hand. +1 Action for each card you discard this way. Trash this.
---
When you trash this, return it to the Cell Pile
(This card is not in the supply)



THE CARDS

Bargain
Action/Reaction - $1
Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing up to $1 more than it.
---
When you would gain a card, you may return this from your hand to the supply. If you did, instead, gain a card costing up to $1 more than it. Put the card into your hand.

(Note: The Name comes from a somewhat similar pure reaction card developed by GeoLib which was the inspiration for this card – I think it’s different enough but I couldn't think of a more suitable name for this card)
$2 Cards


Ambush
Single - $2
When you would gain this, instead put it anywhere inside a supply pile, and take the Ambush token.
---
When this card appears on top of a Supply pile, return it to its own pile, and the current player trashes a card costing at least $3 that he has in play. The player with the Ambush token pays it to gain a card costing $3-$6 from the trash, putting it in his hand.

Fool
Action/Single - $2
+2 Cards
+2 Actions
Put this card on top of any non-empty supply pile of cards costing $6 or less. That pile is the Fool pile.

Blacksmith
Action - $2
Reveal a card from your hand. If it's an:
Action Card - Gain a copy of it
Treasure Card - +$3
Victory Card - +3 cards
Put the revealed card on top of your deck.

Store
Action - $2
+1 Action
+1 Card
+$1
Put a card from your hand on the bottom of your deck.


$3 Cards

Fete
Single - $3
When you would gain this, instead, look at the top 2 cards of the Fete deck, put one on the bottom of your deck, and put the other back on the bottom of the Fete deck.
---
Setup: Make a Fete deck out of one copy of every Kingdom supply pile in the current game.

Note: The text isn't "gain" so you can't activate when gain effects. Your opponents do not get to see any cards.

Conflict
Action/Attack/Single - $3
+2 Cards
Starting with the player to your left, each player (including you) trashes any number of cards from his hand. The player who trashed the most cards first gains this card, and all other players gain a Curse.

Outskirts
Action/Reaction - $3
+2 Actions
+1 Card
---
When another player plays an Outskirts, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, +1 Card and put this on top of your deck.

Prospector
Action - $3
+1 Action
Gain a Silver
---
While this is in play, when you gain a card, you may put it anywhere in your deck.

Scribe
Action - $3
+$2
Place the top card of the event deck face down on your Scribe Mat
---
At the start of your turn, you may reveal and resolve an Event from your Scribe Mat. You may look at the cards on your Scribe Mat at any time.




$4 Cards

Tower
Single - $4
When you would gain this, instead, move a tower token to any supply pile, and trash the top card of that pile if it isn't a Victory card.
---
Setup: Place a tower token on each of the Estate, Duchy and Province supply piles. Cards are worth an extra 1VP for every tower token on its supply pile.

Revolutionary
Action - $4
+1 Action
Each player (including you) may put a card from his hand on top of his deck.
Reveal your hand. The player to your left may choose any number of cards from it. Discard those cards.
Draw until you have 6 cards in hand.

Barge
Action - $4
Now and at the start of your next turn; +1 buy, draw until you have 6 cards in hand
Put your deck in your discard pile
---
While this is in play, when you gain a card, you may trash a card from your hand.

Beauty
Action/Attack - $4
+2 Actions
Each player (including you) discards any number of cards from his hand until he can reveal a hand of only Actions and Treasures.
Draw until you have 4 cards in hand.

Contrarian
Action/Attack - $4
+3 Cards
Each player (including you) with 5 or more cards in hand puts a card from his hand anywhere in his deck.
---
When you gain this, resolve the top Event from the Event deck. 

Fleet
Action/Duration - $4
+2 Cards
+$1 if any other player has a Duration in play
At the start of your next turn, +1 Action
---
While this card is in play, when you would gain a card, you may, instead, gain a Fleet.

Labyrinth
Action - $4
Do all three of the following in any order:
Draw until you have 5 cards in hand
Discard a card
Trash all but 3 cards in your hand

Oppressor
Action/Attack - $4
+2 Cards
Each other player with 5 or more cards in hand reveals a Victory card from his hand and puts it on the bottom of his deck (or reveals a hand with no Victory cards). He then reveals the top card of his deck, gaining a Cell from the Cell pile if it isn't a Cell, putting it on top of his deck.

Plantation
Action/Victory - $4
Worth 1VP
---
+1 Card
+1 Action
Reveal cards from the top of your deck until you reveal a victory card. Put it in your hand and discard the rest.

Repair
Action/Reaction - $4
Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card that shares a type costing up to $3 more, putting it on top of your deck.
---
When you would gain a card, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, instead, gain a cheaper card.

$5 Cards

Enchanter
Single - $5
When you would gain this, instead, move the hex token to any Action supply pile.
---
At the start of your Buy phase, if you have no actions remaining and a copy of the card with the Hex token in play, each other player gains a Curse. Place the Hex token on the Enchanter supply pile at the start of the game and when it’s on an empty pile.  

Patrol
Single - $5
When you would gain this, instead, gain a cheaper card, and each other player reveals the bottom card of his deck, gaining a Cell from the Cell pile if it’s any other card. Each player puts any cards gained this way on the bottom of his deck. 

Package
Single - $5
When you would gain this, instead, gain 3 differently named cards that are neither Singles nor Victory Cards with a total cost of up to $7.

Pioneer
Single - $5
When you would gain this, instead gain a cheaper Action card, placing it on the Pioneer mat.
---
During your turn you may play a card from the Pioneer mat instead of from your hand. If you do, trash it. 

Rival Markets
Action/Duration/Single - $5*
+$2
+2 Actions
+2 Cards
+2 Buys
At the start of your next turn, return this to its own pile.
---
While this card is in play, it is also in the Supply, and costs $4.

Cargo
Treasure - $5
Worth $1
When you play this, trash a card you have in play. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it. 

Conqueror
Action - $5
Gain 2 Cards with a total cost of up to $7.
Each player (including you) looks through his discard pile and either trashes a card from it or puts a card from it on top of his deck.

Escape Artist
Action - $5
+2 Cards
Each player (including you) may reveal a Cell from his hand. If he doesn’t, he gains a Cell from the Cell pile, putting it in his hand.
You may play a Cell from your hand.

Pariah
Action - $5
Gain a card costing up to $6. Each other player may gain a Curse, putting it on top of his deck. If he did, he also gains a copy of the card you gained. 

Dock
Action - $5
+1 Card
+1 Buy
+$1
---
While this is in play, when you gain a card, you may set it aside on the Dock mat. Put all cards on the Dock mat in your hand at the start of your turn.

Town Crier
Action - $5
+$3
+1 Buy
Resolve the top Event from the Event deck  

Whittler
Action - $5
You may do this up to three times:
Reveal an action card from your hand. Play it, then trash it. Gain a card costing less than the trashed card, putting it in your hand.

Other Costs


Baroness
Victory/Single - $0*
Worth 2VP for each Estate left in the supply.
---
This card costs $1 for each Estate left in the supply. 

Archer
Action/Attack - $6
Each player reveals cards from his deck until revealing one costing $3 or more. He either discards it or puts it back (you choose), then discards the other revealed cards.
+3 Cards

TRINKETS


Bell
Action/Trinket - $0*
+2 Actions
+$1

Chain
Treasure/Trinket - $0*
Worth $0
---
While this is in play, cards cost $1 less (to a minimum of $0)

Dagger
Treasure/Reaction/Trinket - $0*
Worth $1
When another player plays an attack card, you may trash this from your hand. If you do, you are unaffected by the attack.

Locket
Treasure/Victory/Trinket - $0*
Worth 1VP for each name of a Treasure you have in your deck other than Gold, Silver or Copper.
---
Worth $1

Rare Coin
Treasure/Trinket – $4*
Worth $1

Sigil
Treasure/Trinket - $0*
Worth $1, +$2 for each empty supply pile

EVENTS


Bring Out Your Dead!:
Each player may trash a card from his hand. Return this to the bottom of the Event deck.

Meeting!:
Each player draws a card. Return this to the bottom of the Event deck.

Silver Rush!:
Each player gains a Silver. Return this to the bottom of the Event deck.

Excavation!:
Each player may discard any number of cards from his hand. +1 card for each card he discarded this way. Return this to the bottom of the Event deck.

Exhibit!:
Each player may look through his discard pile, and put a card from it on top of his deck. Return this to the bottom of the Event deck.

Forecast!:
Each player looks at the top 5 cards of his deck, and either discards them all or puts them back in any order. Return this to the bottom of the Event deck.



Alms!:
Each player gains a copper, putting it in his hand. Return this to the bottom of the Event deck.

Riots!:
Each player reveals the top 3 cards of his deck, discards the actions and treasures and puts the other cards back in any order. Return this to the bottom of the Event deck.

Inquisition!:
Each player may discard 2 cards from his hand. If he doesn't, he gains a Curse, putting it in his hand. Return this to the bottom of the Event deck.

Inspection!:
Each player puts a Victory or Curse card on top of his deck (or reveals a hand with no such cards). Return this to the bottom of the Event deck.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2014, 06:36:49 am by NoMoreFun »
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NoMoreFun

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2013, 07:23:21 am »
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Secret History/What I was attempting to do

GENERAL OVERVIEW: I was very frustrated to hear about how there would be no new expansions after Guilds, and then about how the limiting factor in expansions was the number of cards. I saw so much wasted space: randomisers, blank cards, cards like Scout and Pearl Diver. The idea then came to me: could you design an expansion that made ultimate use of the design space? To demonstrate, I set out to design a set that fit a big box expansion into a small box. When Dark Ages was announced however, I realised that it would be a better challenge. The key was "single cards" - using what would otherwise be a wasted card (a randomizer) as a card in itself. Cells and Trinkets are direct parallels to Ruins and Shelters, aiming to take up less space while doing something similar (although they ended up not being that way).

Another feeling was that the game had gotten stale (largely due to outplaying it on isotropic), to the point where I wouldn't often be surprised by anything happening. I then played ascension and loved the turbulent nature of the game, especially the "events", and wanted a way to bring that to dominion. I also loved the "interactive" cards like City, and idealised every card being like that.

The set ended up getting an enormous "everyone gets hit the same" theme, which I've loved since the fan card "Garrison" in the design contest and since a thread explained the "mirror image" nature of "Followers". This also aligned excellently with events, and gave the set its name. In addition, one of my old obsessions (bottom decking) ended up making a rather large appearance. I try to make each concept pop up at least 3 times as well; these "Mini themes" hopefully make for a cohesive set.

Bargain: Copper/Silver/Gold and Estate/Duchy/Province, and now Bargain/Remodel/Expand. Of course, the top effect alone isn't a very good card, so it needs a way to get rid of itself, which the bottom, inspired by an identically named card by GeoLib, allows. A disappearing copper isn't a terrible thing for a card to be, and this allows some very interesting interactions with gainers, especially ones that demand specific cards. The supply returning and gaining to hand also means it can block cursers indefinitely, and the cards are unlikely to run out quickly (a real risk). It seems so elegant as a $1 card, but it was originally $2, the effect was "reveal and trash to gain a card costing $2 more" and there was no "top effect" - the poor reaction to pure reactions changed that.

Ambush: A very old idea. I want to get the idea of a surprise appearing from nowhere into dominion somehow; when the card isn't what you expected it to be, like the very game itself has been sabotaged. The "knight" effect is pronounced, and a variation on the "steal the card they would have gained." It's "gain to hand" so the effect of the successful ambush can be seen quickly; I was also considering "gain to the top of your deck" so that ambushing yourself was viable. It still is viable if you use a gainer. It probably plays similarly to embargo, but hopefully (especially in IRL games which can drag on in terms of time), people forget where the ambush went, and tricks with putting it not immediately below the top card will hopefully give the intended effect of surprise.

Fool: A heavily updated version of "Racket", a card which blocked a supply pile for everyone but you. This card was the first "single" I came up with. I made it a "good" card so it was in wide circulation. It's a more "friendly" embargo, but one that remains ever present. Perhaps a completely benign card that gets the player thinking about their opponent a little more; not bad for a Single.

Blacksmith: LastFootnote tried card copier (surveyor) that didn't work, but I thought the concept deserved a try. It was a weak effect because of needing to line up cards, so to make it a "smooth" card I gave it 2 other ironworks like effects to mirror Herbalist and Courtyard. I like how strong it seems while actually not being strong at all, and it's a nice general utility card to go alongside Steward and Squire. The name comes from the +3 cards effect, and the "iron".

Store: I love bottom decking, and tried to make a full set of bottom deckers once. The idea is a card to be the logical continuation the "Oasis" family, but one with advanced strategy. You can treat it like oasis, but the real power is in lining up cards on the bottom of your deck for real strategy.

Fete: Everything in Dominion is out in the open (except masquerade in multiplayer), to the point where if you're keeping track you can know the exact composition of your opponent's deck. I wanted to change that with this card. I also like the idea of Lucky Dip (explored nicely with Black Market), and the 2 concepts aligned. Bottom Decking

Conflict: A "hot potato" card; a natural thing to try and make when going for single card kingdoms. Originally a worse curse that you passed around, but that didn't cut it as a "kingdom". Instead, a "game" like masquerade happens with this card. I can imagine it being more fun in casual IRL games than any other setting.

Outskirts: It undermines the "compact" principle but the set really looked like it needed a normal "Village". INstead of modifying another card I made this. To make it interesting I set myself the challenge of making a card that cost $3 that was still a cantrip village. I decided to address the aspect of villages where you often end up not playing it at the right time. To make it not worse than village I made it self reacting, which also ties into the interactivity.

Prospector: A late relic of an often spammed "Everyone gains the same treasure" idea. It ended up being a card like Stash. I remember seeing a card that was simply "+1 Action, gain a silver on top of your deck" that I liked, and this card is similar enough. However people were commenting that it was weak, so I decided to make this card the "stash/royal seal" card. I might change it to bottom decking if it's too annoying, but that undermines the "now I draw the silver I just gained" factor.

Scribe: After coming up with events, I wanted a card that could make you use them to your advantage, so I decided to have this card, which puts you in charge of events. It seemed fairly innocuous, so terminal silver. People seem to think this card is bad for some reason.

Tower - An old idea; an "alt VP" card except instead of being a defined category, it's whatever the players define, and there's a competition to define it. Very political, but that can be fun for some players.

Barge - I saw the "when you gain, you may trash" effect on a Dark Ages outtake. I thought it was interesting, but would be even more interesting when it wasn't your turn and during your action phase, so I put it on a duration. I also liked the idea of a card that always misses the reshuffle; I think it's a good thing when a card implies a strategy fact (eg the existence of Cache was surprising when I first saw it as a beginner). The top bit was hard to pick, and not the same as what won me a set design contest, but I liked how it interacted with the "other people's turn" effect. The card really does a number on Cursers.

Beauty - Wish fulfillment. I wanted a draw to X village, but "+2 Actions, draw to 5" was well known and had a name here, so I made it a cellar/village. Also toying with the concept of an attack village, and "discard your junk" seemed unique, weak but not nothing, and didn't recur - a perfect candidate. The two effects lined up perfectly. It was originally part of a "when you reveal" card, but those effects weren't exciting anyone.

Contrarian - When thinking "bottom decking", I wanted a ghost ship style card, but I had to be clever about the differences. I first tried a "margrave" style attack to emphasise the difference between top decking, bottom decking and discarding, but that didn't get good feedback in competitions. I liked the effect of "Garrison" though, and decided to do a similar "mirror image" for that card, and it looked good. Later I realised "anywhere decking" is more interesting. The card is a better courtyard, but the "attack" is often a good thing for the other player. The event is a penalty (since happening during your buy phase is not a good time); this gets it out of the "too good for $4, not good enough for $5" gap.

Fleet - For the "self comboing cards" competition, I wanted a card that didn't get far too much better with multiple plays like Bridge, so I tried the idea of a duration. Initially it was put into now/next turn/turn after card, but it seemed too weak. However simply having "+2 Cards, next turn +1 Action" looked boring, and also less like it belonged in a fancy fan set and more just a seaside outtake. I wanted a way to trigger events, and the "if another Fleet is in play" seemed perfect for the set, but because there'd be too many events, I made it +$1 instead - hopefully it isn't too strong. The "while in play" effect on the other hand is a way to encourage gaining many copies, while not falling into any "strictly better" traps. I also like how it blocks Curses.

Labyrinth Instead of picking from a list of options, why not have the list in front of you and pick the order. That was the concept, and applying that to the outtake "dungeon" seemed to work best.

Oppressor - I wanted 3 cards that used "cell", and one that was more blatantly an attack. I decided to run with the "slows you down" theme, doing what Sea Hag couldn't do with the self moating (so you can't put a stack of cells on top.) Topdecking a Cell seemed to answer the "next turn militia" concept. Fitting something around it was the hardest part. I opted with the "bottom deck bureaucrat" idea from elsewhere, and +2 cards to contrast your speeding up with their slowing down.

Plantation - A card that always draws other copies of itself? Interesting, but overpowered. However if it either drew that or junk? Now that works. Making it a victory card that only drew other victory cards was the perfect way to do that. It had to be non terminal so it really did lead into itself, and $4 to make it easy to obtain many copies (and for Ironworks). A hard decision was deciding whether to make it a Village, Peddler or Laboratory. I went with Lab because it seemed the least esoteric of the 3 even though it wouldn't be easy to make work. The 1VP would be something worse than 1VP if it wasn't hard to make something that's both interesting and simple in that space (but not 0VP - seems pointless).

Repair Get it, because the 2 cards form a pair? Came from a pure thought experiment about Mine, Rebuild and Graverobber, realising that the "Expand" effect wasn't very good if you kept to the same type. I love "cheap" effects that seem strong. It was originally "up to 5 more". It doesn't make much of a difference to the card but I'd rather keep it in line. The topdecking makes the "Rebuild" effect worse - necessary after it was revealed how strong Rebuild was. It can't trash curses so it can block them; also the reaction effect opens up cards that specify other cards, and can "combo" with another Repair to make a Remodel (not a great use IMO, but there you go).

Revolutionary - Something I came up with after Advisor was revealed. I started to like it when I realised that this had all the aspects that made draw to X cards fun Amplified - now you REALLY want to reduce your hand size before you play it. The "everyone topdecks" was a nice way to bring it in line with the theme while making it a little stronger.

Enchanter - The other sets (until guilds; why didn't they make Soothsayer hand out Coin Tokens? It would have been so simple and interesting...) had a thematic card for their Cursers. I decided to go the same way by making a single card curser with non attack interactivity. "Turn another card" into a curser seemed like a good idea, but I wanted to keep it to terminals, hence the wording.

Patrol - An attempt at a when gain militia. That alone isn't, so I combined it with a Nomad Camp. Bottom decking because Cells need to self moat, but turning any $4 card into Nomad Camp messes with the opening far too much.

Package - Cache could have been a single card. Here's my attempt at something similar in the Cache/Masterpiece space. It's not strictly better than Cache because in games with both this and Cache, you can make Cache one of the cards you gain with it. I'd later use that to make my Village (Outskirts). Wording attempts to avoid making province gaining to easy (especially with the "Chain" trinket).

Pioneer - A "coin token" that's actually an Action! I came up with this before Guilds' mechanic was announced, but what does that matter.

Rival Markets - An "engine piece" that you'll want to keep buying back, but it's going to cost you. Was changed to a single late in the picture. The cost variation is to make it work with Workshop style cards.

Cargo - Built around "trash a card in play". It had to work with Copper, so it's a treasure, but it also has to be worthwhile with other cards, so it's a remodel. I tried very hard to make it a $4 card but "worth $0" looked wrong, and it compares too well to upgrade. Hopefully not too similar to counterfeit.

Conqueror - Originally Gain a Gold, but the effect of the Hermit/Scavenger would be more pronounced with gaining 2 cards (you could gain a good one and junk the other). It just sort of fell into place.

Dock - Originally a "next turn apprentice", the bottom effect was just a way to spice the card up. That card ended up seeming quite ridiculous, but I still needed a card with +Buy, and I wanted those +buys to be meaningful, so the effect stayed. It's similar to Wharf, but less powerful and more strategic (the idea is to line up cards). Also a unique vanilla effect (because I couldn't decide whether to go with +$1 or +$2)

Escape Artist - A way to reconcile "+2 Cards, discard for actions". The reason Cell is the way it is. The extremely mild attack hopefully gets it out of the too good for 4, not good enough for 5 bubble. Also it's a mirror. It was originally a Lab for you but it looked strictly better, and Lab already has an issue of cards looking strictly better than it (Hunting Party).

Pariah - For the Cornucopia design contest; what's a card that would actually convince you to pursue a different strategy to your opponent. The idea is that you don't want to gain a card that anyone else wants, because the curse mirroring actually isn't very strong. I made the curse a non discarding Sea Hag to make it a bit more pronounced (and also a chance to have that effect on a card), but that may have killed the subtlety of the card. Soothsayer wrecked my perceptions of how good "Gain a Gold" was. This is a 2nd "curser" to fit the set theme; Dark ages has Cultist AND Marauder so I'm happy with that, and the Cell givers aren't really Junkers as much as strange Militia variants.

Town Crier
Events needed a card that triggered them. I went with a very simple one

Whittler
An attempt at a reverse procession. Probably extremely niche. Originally you would whittle one card down to nothing, but that was hard to balance. Then it was infinitely playable, but Fortress ruined everything :P. Three times would be enough, even though you'd rarely use it all 3. I suspect it will largely be used to milk Actions for money by turning them into silver.

Baroness - I needed one last single. A card that messes with estates (much like Duke with Duchies) would do the trick. It's not going to be a game changer and may very well be cut if I can figure out a better Single.

Archer - Would Saboteur be a good attack without trashing? Maybe. It made a nice "mirror" thing with a Sage effect, and I needed a terminal drawer that was better than Smithy. Everything came together. It costs $6 because opening with it would be far too annoying, and the draw also seems quite powerful (either 3 cards and one of them is good, or 4 cards).

CELL: How would "discard for actions" be as a card. Junk, it turned out. It seemed like the perfect candidate for recurring junk, and since it mirrored the "militia" effect (if you want to play actions, you have to lose cards), everything started to come together nicely.

TRINKETS
- I wanted something unique to each player that could shape strategy - mirror matches seemed like they happened too often on isotropic. Each Trinket would hopefully "suggest" a strategy, while not affecting the opening at all. Reverse turn order seemed like a good way to pick, because random could have big disparities in some kingdoms, and FTA is a big issue. There were originally 7 for the 7 coppers, but I ran out of good ideas and there'd only ever be 6 players - I suppose if you want to play the rainbow you can have the 6 and a copper for variety. Chain was originally "Toy Bridge" and dondon151's idea.

EVENTS - Tried to think of as many simple effects as possible. I wanted some helpful and some harmful. The "navigator" effect is because a spy effect seemed too innocuous, but having seen how annoying navigator is on Goko it may change again.

Outtakes: 2 different cards that gave everyone the same treasure, just in different places. A lot of tension over whether they were attacks or not, and ultimately just didn't seem worth it even though I thought they were clever. A few cards tried "when reveal" effects, but they were hard to get right. I loved the idea of pure reactions, but they weren't popular. Bargain is a surviving relic of a pure reaction. A triple duration (now, next turn, the turn after) was tried but hard to get the power right.

The main outtake, mechanically, was "unique" randomisers. For example, buying the last Contrarian would reveal a card that flipped the turn order, or at the end of a pile would be a victory card that counted cards from that pile, or a pile would have a built in "Ambush". Ultimately I decided that you should be able to get the cards out of the box without going through the randomiser pile to finish the set. Single cards on the other hand were fine as they would be treated differently to other "randomisers".
« Last Edit: September 24, 2014, 10:07:35 am by NoMoreFun »
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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2013, 09:22:15 am »
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Fool: The card below it is not "in the supply" when a Fool is on top, so Ambassador can't return it.

Ambassador should be able to pass the card. You can also return a ruins, no matter which is on top. In multiplayer games, it could matter.


In general: So many cool cards, especially the single cards. But I can imagine Cummune won't be and annoying that strong with +Buys because it always switchs player.
 I like the card-draw mechanic from Musketeers. And Tower is neat. Great for an engine player to build up some more points.

I am not sure about Events because they are very random. It also decreases the amount of games with lack of trashing/draw/cursing/hand-reducing, and I personally don't like that much, because it makes board analysing very complicated and sometimes pretty useless.

Blockade has't a cost yet.
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Warfreak2

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2013, 09:48:04 am »
+1

Fool
Action/Single - $2
+2 Cards
Put this on top of any Kingdom supply pile.

Note: Kingdom means not a base card. Similar to knights, when a Fool is on top of the supply pile, it must be gained before any cards below it can be gained. The card below it is not "in the supply" when a Fool is on top, so Ambassador can't return it. You can play Band of Misfits as a fool and put a Band of Misfits on top of a Kingdom supply pile, and the same rules apply.
This is fun. There will be rules questions - can I put it on an empty supply pile? If so, and that pile is no longer "in the supply", does it still count for the end-of-game conditions? What happens if I play it with KC, or Procession? (I presume it only moves once, after which it's lost track of, and can't be trashed for the same reason).


Commune
Action/Duration/Single - $2
Now, and the start of every turn this is in play: Draw until you have 6 cards in hand.
---
While this card is in play, it is also in the Supply.
I like it. It plays very differently depending on the availability of +buy.


Trashman
Action/Single - $2+
When you would gain this, instead, gain a card from the Trash
When you buy this you may overpay. If you did, trash a Treasure from your hand, and gain a card costing up to the amount you overpaid more than it.
Why does it have an Action type? It should be a pure Single type, since it has no action effect (what if I choose it for Band of Misfits?).

It doesn't work. I am paying $2 extra for some card to trash a Copper from my hand (effectively $3 extra, since I could have played the Copper), but then I have to gain something from the trash. Or I could pay $1 less for some card, to trash a Silver from my hand (but this is effectively $1 more because I could have played the Silver), which makes it pointless to just gain the Silver right back. So I have to trash a Gold, in which case I'm effectively paying $1 less for a card, as long as it costs more than $6 - usually that is only Province - and probably I want to gain that Gold right back, because Gold is even better than usual here, it lets me buy Province for $7.

So logically, if I have a Gold, I can buy a Province for $7, and almost always I am gaining my Gold back from the trash. If I have a Silver, and I buy something for $4+, I can swap the Silver I spent for any other card in the trash for an additional expense of $1, but usually there won't be anything in the trash better than Silver, because Gold isn't going to stay there. Then if I have a Copper, I can spend $3 extra to turn it into something from the trash, but there won't be any Silvers in the trash either, because there's no reason to use it to trash Silver.

So, this card in any game without TfB or trashing attacks, which is a large proportion of games, will effectively be "in this game, Provinces cost $7 if you have a Gold in play", which seems much less interesting than what you were going for.


Benefactor
Action - $2
Name a treasure card. Gain a copy in your hand. Each other player gains a copy, and puts it on top of his deck if it's a copper, in his discard pile if it's a Silver, and in his hand otherwise.
"Name a card" seems superfluous here; "Gain a Treasure card in your hand". Otherwise it's interesting.


Musketeers
Action/Duration - $3
+$1
At the start of your next turn, +1 Action
---
When you discard this from play, draw an extra card at the end of that turn's clean up phase.
This doesn't seem very different from "Now: +$1. At the start of your next turn, +1 Action. At the start of the turn after that, +1 Card". Drawing another card in cleanup is different for handsize attacks, of course, and my version would miss the reshuffle much more often, and you wouldn't be able to play the same copy of the card for $1 in the same turn as you had the +1 Card. But it would make the card a lot simpler.


Scholar
Action - $3
You may discard any number of cards from your hand. Count the number of treasures you discarded this way, and draw until you have twice that many cards in hand.
Is the ability to discard cards other than Treasures totally essential to this card? It might be more balanced without it.

For accountability, you have to reveal the cards before (or while) you discard them, as "discard any number of cards" is an atomic operation, and the opponent is not entitled to see all cards you discard, only the top card of your discard pile.

It could be: "Reveal any number of Treasure cards from your hand. Discard them [and any other cards from your hand you choose?], and draw until you have twice that number of cards in hand."


Capital
Action - $3
+1 Action
You may play an action card from your hand.
Draw until you have 5 cards in hand.
This is a simple but interesting village.


Opportunist
Reaction - $3
When any player gains a Treasure card, you may reveal and discard this. If you do, resolve an Event.
---
When you reveal this, +1 card
Needs "you may reveal and discard this from your hand".

I think people will very rarely want this card. All of the events affect everyone equally, but you had the opportunity cost of triggering it; getting +1 Card when you do means it replaces itself in your hand, OK, but that needs to happen during your opponent's turn for it to be harmless for you, you can't guarantee your opponent will buy (or otherwise gain) a Treasure every time you have it in your hand. OK, there are tricks where you gain a Treasure during your Action phase in which case it is exactly neutral, but still, you have a reduced handsize in order to achieve that, and many games don't have treasure-gaining anyway. Buying a Treasure yourself to activate it is almost always pointless.


Cargo
Treasure - $4
Worth $1
When you play this, trash a card in play. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.
---
When you trash this, gain a copper, putting it in your hand.
This is very nearly strictly better than Feast; OK, you gain a Copper, but it is itself a Copper-trasher, so that's not a problem. It also can't be drawn dead, and it gives you +$2 when you use it as a feast, which is not insignificant! Compare with Counterfeit, which lets you play a treasure a second time to trash it; this one is $1 (and a buy) worse for trashing Coppers, but gains $4s and $7s for trashing Silvers and Golds (instead of +$2/+$3 and a buy respectively), which is quite competitive - but it can upgrade Action cards and you don't even forego playing them, and it can upgrade itself too. So it's usually better than Counterfeit, and Counterfeit is a strong $5; this should probably be $6.


Philanthropist
Action - $4
+1 Card
+1 Action
Name a treasure card. Gain a copy, putting it in your hand if it's a copper, on top of your deck if it's a silver, and on the bottom otherwise. Each other player also gains a copy.
This is far too similar to Benefactor to be worth being a different card. Otherwise the same comments apply.


Scribe
Action - $4
+$2
Set aside an event face down onto your Scribe Mat
---
In games using this, at the start of your turn, you may resolve an Event from your Scribe mat. You may look at the cards on your mat at any time.
Probably should be $2, but I'm really not convinced about buying a card and spending an action just to give everyone the same benefit as you, and certainly not to give yourself the same punishment as everyone else. Compare with Duchess, which is a terminal Silver for $2, and gives everyone an equal benefit; people usually don't even take Duchess when it's free.


Revolutionary
Action - $4
+1 Action
Reveal your hand. The player to your left may select any number of the cards for you to discard.
Draw until you have 6 cards in hand.
This is rarely, if ever, going to be good. It's very nearly strictly worse than Advisor, and lots of people hate Advisor. It sounds more like a junk card.


Rear Admiral
Action/Attack - $4
+3 Cards
Each player (including you) with 5 or more cards in hand puts a card from his hand anywhere in his deck.
If you have one, it's better than a Courtyard which attacks, it must be too much better than Smithy (you automatically have a bigger hand to choose from) Remember also that Courtyard is a good card, so the second one of these you play isn't really bad either! OK, so you can't build a draw engine using only Rear Admirals, maybe it's not strictly better than Smithy, but there's often other draw cards you can use to supplement it, it would still feel better at $5. Margrave is also not good to play lots of. At $4 it's a cheap attack which totally nombos with Urchin, though, that's funny.


Repair
Action/Reaction - $4
Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card that shares a type costing up to $5 more than it
---
When you would gain a card, you may reveal this. If you do, instead, gain a cheaper card.
It needs "you may reveal this from your hand".
I think I joined in the balance discussion for this card in a different thread. Infinite Goons is theoretically a problem, it would be nice if there was a simple wording that prevented it. Repair/Farmland/Colony sounds super-good, turn Estates into Repairs and Farmlands into Colonies; probably no more broken than Masterpiece/Feodum, though. Overall I think it's a good card.


Barge
Action/Duration - $4
Put your deck in your discard pile
Now and at the start of your next turn:
+$1, +2 Buys
---
While this is in play, when you gain a card, you may trash a card from your hand.
This one we discussed elsewhere too.


Serf
Action/Victory - $4
Worth 1VP
---
+1 Action, +$1
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal a victory card. Put it in your hand, and discard the other revealed cards.
A Peddler variant! In most games it will usually chain into itself reliably, letting you play all of them, but isn't at all resistant to greening. It's similar to, but a little worse than Treasury, except that Treasury isn't worth 1VP. So I think it has to be $5.


Tower
Victory/Single - $4
When you would gain this, instead, move a Tower token to any Kingdom supply pile. Cards are worth 1VP per Tower token on the supply pile
---
Setup: Place all 3 Tower Tokens on the Tower card.
A game-changer for sure, but the rules aren't clear from the card - can I move a Tower token from any pile, or just from the Tower pile? The wording should specify that they count Tower tokens on their own supply pile, "the supply pile" is a bit vague and ambiguous. I like it.


Oppressor
Action/Attack - $4
Look at the top 5 cards of your deck. Put one in your hand, and discard the others.
Each other player reveals the top card of his deck, and gains a Cell from the Cell pile if it is any other card, putting it on top of his deck.
A strong $4; this is what Herald used to do, and apparently it was brokenly strong, but this is terminal so probably it's OK. Wording should be "Each other player reveals the top card of his deck; if it is not a Cell, he gains a Cell from the Cell pile, putting it on his deck."


Escape Artist
Action/Attack - $5
+2 Cards
Each player (including you) may reveal a Cell from his hand. If he doesn’t, he gains a Cell from the Cell pile, putting it in his hand.
You may play a Cell from your hand.
It's strictly better than Inn, but Inn has a nice on-gain benefit so that's OK. It's very strong with Watchtower/Library, but that's a situation in which you want a Cell (and it's nice that your opponent lets you gain one to your hand - probably you don't want to trash it with your Watchtower!).


Conqueror
Action - $5
Gain a Gold
Each player (including you) reveals a card from his discard pile and either trashes it or puts it on top of his deck.
Players are not permitted to actually look through their discard pile unless told to. Also, you should clarify who is choosing what to do with the revealed card. It has to be "Each player (including you) looks through his discard pile, chooses a card, reveals it, and either trashes it or puts it on his deck, (your choice/his choice." I'm not sure "Gain a Gold." needs to be on a separate line.


Beauty
Action - $5
+2 Actions
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal an Action card. Discard the Treasures and put the other revealed cards in your hand.
When you reveal this, gain a Silver
(Note: Same rules as opportunist)
This is almost strictly better than Farming Village since it doesn't draw Treasures, but actually gaining a Silver every time you reveal it (and it will reveal other copies of itself very often) is a nerf; Silver-flooding is contrary to a strategy that wants villages. So, probably it should be $4.

It's also brokenly strong with Feodum, as any time you draw a Beauty, you gain one fewer Silvers per turn as you have Beauties, and the last one Chancellors your deck nicely for you too. Then again, Trader and Masterpiece are already brokenly strong with Feodum, so maybe that isn't a problem.


Blockade
+1 Action
+1 Card
+$2
Trash a card from your hand. Set aside a number of cards from the top of your deck equal to its cost in coins. At the start of your next turn, put the set aside cards in your hand
---
While this is in play, cards cost $1 more. Apply this after all other cost modifiers.
The card is missing Action/Duration type; it also doesn't have a cost? This is already strictly better than Junk Dealer, so it must cost $6+. "Cards cost $1 more" is a mechanic already considered carefully and rejected by DXV, it has the potential to easily lock other players out of the game completely. Yours is a cantrip, and it's expensive, so whoever gets to these first is going to totally stop the other players from getting them. That doesn't sound like a fun game to me.


Town Crier
Action - $5
+$3
Resolve an Event
This appears reasonable.


Rival Markets
Action - $5
+2 Cards
+2 Actions
+2 Buys
+$2
Return this to the supply
And if Procession is in the game? Probably should be "Return this to the supply. If you do,"


Vendor
Single - $5
When you would gain this, instead, gain 3 cards with a total cost of up to $7
Do you intend that I can piledrive Fools Golds (or any $2 cost) by choosing Vendor as one of my three cards?


Patrol
Single - $5
When you would gain this, instead, gain a cheaper card, and each other player reveals the bottom card of his deck, gaining a Cell from the Cell pile if it is any other card. Each player puts any cards gained this way on the bottom of his deck.
Same wording issue as Oppressor. Seems like a really weak attack, it compares very unfavourably to IGG: OK, Silver (or anything else <=$4) is better to have in your deck than IGG (though IGG rushes like gaining Coppers), but you can only do it once per shuffle, and Cell is just hardly a junk card at all compared to Curse. It also doesn't empty any piles, and really I'd just much rather have any other $5 card.


Recruiter
Single - $5
When you would gain this, instead, gain 2 cheaper Action cards, setting them aside on your Recruiter mat.
---
During your turn, you may play cards from your Recruiter mat instead of from your hand. If you do, trash the card.
"In games using this, during your action phase, you may play cards from your Recruiter mat [instead of/as well as?] from your hand. Trash any cards played from your Recruiter mat."

Either way this is brokenly strong with Treasure Map; you can't use one from your Recruiter mat to trash the other, obviously, but you can buy two other Treasure Maps normally, and as soon as one is in your hand, you play one from your Recruiter mat, getting 8 Golds in total with zero effort.


Enchanter
Single - $5
When you would gain this, instead, move the Hex token to any Action card’s supply pile.
---
When you play a card, if you have no actions remaining, each other player gains a Curse per Hex token on the pile.
It ought to have "In games using this,". This doesn't work like you think it does. "When you play a card" is when you put it into your play area, before you resolve any of it, including +Actions. So you play a Great Hall, "when you play it" you have no actions remaining, each other player gains a Curse, and then you get +1 Card +1 Action. So, it's broken. Also it needs a setup rule, "At the beginning of the game, put the Hex token on this card", and why does the card text refer to "the" Hex token, yet the bottom part refers to the possibility of multiple Hex tokens, I don't know what's going on there. Probably you don't want more than one Hex token, even after you fix this bug.


Industry
Action - $6
+4 cards
Discard any number of cards. Gain a card that isn’t a Victory card costing up to a cost equal to the number of cards you discarded this way.
For consistency, you should mimic the phrasing from official cards as much as possible. (This is my biggest peeve for fan cards.) "Gain a card that is not a Victory card, with a cost in coins equal to the number of cards discarded."


Whittler
Action - $6
+1 Card
+1 Action
Trash a card from your hand. If you did, repeat the following steps until you fail to gain a card:
Gain an action card costing less than the card you just trashed with Whittler. Play it. Trash it.
I don't know how this card will play at all; probably it depends very heavily on the board. It's ridiculously good with Border Village, and also very good with Fortress present, especially if BoM is too. I am absolutely sure it doesn't need +1 Card +1 Action.


TRINKETS
This is a nice idea, especially the reverse-turn-order thing, but I think it is going to be too much of a last-player-advantage in many kingdoms; there's often going to be one of these that is just really great to have, it won't be the same one each time, but whoever gets it will have a big advantage. Bell is the only village on some boards, and it can get to Peddlers much quicker. Chain is great with Goons engines, Locket with multiple kingdom treasures (wording should be "each differently named Treasure"), Sigil in City or IGG games.


Excavation!:
Each player may discard any number of cards from his hand. +1 Card per card discarded.

Exhibit!:
Each player may look through his discard pile, and put a card from it on top of his deck.

Forecast!:
Each player looks at the top 5 cards of his deck, and either discards them or puts them back in any order.

Alms!:
Each player gains a Copper, putting it in his hand.

Riots!:
Each player reveals the top 3 cards of his deck, discards the revealed Actions and Treasures and puts the rest back in any order.

Inspection!:
Each player puts a Victory or Curse card from his hand on top of his deck (or reveals a hand with no such cards).
[/color]
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If the only engine on the board is Procession->Conspirator, I will play it.

Warfreak2

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2013, 09:49:26 am »
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Fool: The card below it is not "in the supply" when a Fool is on top, so Ambassador can't return it.

Ambassador should be able to pass the card. You can also return a ruins, no matter which is on top. In multiplayer games, it could matter.
Ambassador can return Ruins because Ruins are in the supply. Fool specifically says that the pile below it is not in the supply, so Ambassador can't return cards from it.
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If the only engine on the board is Procession->Conspirator, I will play it.

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2013, 10:19:33 am »
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Fool: The card below it is not "in the supply" when a Fool is on top, so Ambassador can't return it.

Ambassador should be able to pass the card. You can also return a ruins, no matter which is on top. In multiplayer games, it could matter.
Ambassador can return Ruins because Ruins are in the supply. Fool specifically says that the pile below it is not in the supply, so Ambassador can't return cards from it.

Alright, I missed that
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NoMoreFun

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2013, 10:32:33 am »
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Musketeers
Action/Duration - $3
+$1
At the start of your next turn, +1 Action
---
When you discard this from play, draw an extra card at the end of that turn's clean up phase.
This doesn't seem very different from "Now: +$1. At the start of your next turn, +1 Action. At the start of the turn after that, +1 Card". Drawing another card in cleanup is different for handsize attacks, of course, and my version would miss the reshuffle much more often, and you wouldn't be able to play the same copy of the card for $1 in the same turn as you had the +1 Card. But it would make the card a lot simpler.

I would go with the triple duration (which is in fact, the concept of the card), but it's going to be hard to keep track of, especially since this may be a card you'd buy lots of. This way it's just like any other duration for tracking.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2013, 10:59:32 am »
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Other responses to Warfreak's responses (not good at partial quoting):
* Cargo is better than Feast, but not strictly better and feast is one of the worst cards in the game, so that doesn't concern me (similar to noble brigand/thief). In fact the entire idea of the card is that it's a more versatile feast, so a non negotiable is that it costs $4, can trash itself, and lets you gain a $5. I originally had it give 2 Coppers in hand when you trashed it but that seemed a bit too good for Duchies. Compared to counterfeit you're $1 and a buy worse off for copper, although you gain a $4 card instead of $2 and a buy for silver (which are pretty much directly equivalent costwise - see woodcutter/workshop). Trashing gold is a terrible idea in most kingdoms. Upgrading actions having played them is nice, although I don't find myself using upgrade on actions particularly often (and $1 is worse than +1 card for anything but terminal actions). It is an extremely versatile card and I didn't particularly want it to give $1 (it just felt wrong having a treasure that didn't increase your buying power at all).
* I think Serf is fine at $4 as you either have to trash your estates or buy 4 to make it really start self chaining, and then it chokes on green once you start greening in earnest. Also the last Serf in the chain is a copper/chancellor. Furthermore having multiple Serfs in your hand (which is likely if you have a high density of them) is actually of no benefit to you. It's pretty much a different take on a "half harem"; drawing a dead card is slightly better than drawing nothing.
* I didn't mean for Beauty to Self Synergise that well. Big Money/Beauty is probably too good a strategy (buy no other actions, then gain lots and lots of Silvers). The intention of the card is the reveal effect. Back to the drawing board.
* Whittler is a cantrip because it's a very kingdom dependent card. I had to make it $6 or else it would be too easy for another Whittler to be in the chain (you can still do self chaining; you just have to sacrifice a very good card). As a cantrip it's not entirely unreasonable that you'd buy it for $6 just to trash coppers and estates without the card really going off. This is the most "novelty" card of the set.
* Enchanters wording was an attempt to be similar to embargo. There's only one hex token, and it's only supposed to turn terminals into cursers.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2013, 11:03:22 am by NoMoreFun »
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NoMoreFun

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2013, 11:10:27 am »
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More as I notice them
*Blockade is meant to be $5 and a Duration. I didn't really think about how many of these would typically be in play, but one thing to consider is that you yourself are negatively affected by it the following turn. I made it a cantrip to match Haven and gave it +$2 because I would like to see that on a card. I didn't realise how it compared to other $5s. It's still not strictly better than Junk Dealer because it's worse with +buys and gainers, and the "hangover" turn is a problem as well. Back to the drawing board, although I don't think cost increases should be written off entirely. It will take quite a lot of them (although admittedly that's not that hard to do with a cantrip) to lock out other players.
* Didn't intend Vendor to be Vendorable.
* With Patrol, a key feature is that you get to bottom deck the $4 you choose. This isn't quite as good as top decking obviously, but it is an advantage, and there's also the fact that you can stack cards as you buy them on the bottom. It will be good for Treasure map, as an obvious example (although I hate that card and I don't care if it makes recruiter broken).
* Philanthropist and Benefactor are not even remotely similar in terms of how they play. The fact that one's terminal and the other's a cantrip is enough to imply that. A sort of idea with this set is that there are multiple cards that sort of match up to each other; that's why there's 2 "when reveal" cards, 3 cards that resolve events, 3 cards that give Cells, etc.
* Scribe lets you know what the events are and resolve it when it suits you. Some like "Silver Rush!" are not very time dependent, but others are. I think I'll make it $3, as quite a few other ideas were vying to be $4
* Why do you think Revolutionary is bad? It's a Possessed Cellar+Lab, so it would play a little differently to Advisor (which I think is a decent card). My main concern is that it places a big strategic burden on the player to your left, as they really have to think about whether the card they discard is likely to be better or worse than the card that will replace it, instead of just picking the best card of 3 or 5 to deny you. Also, a lot of draw to X combos will work very well; especially in this set with Cells.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2013, 11:26:56 am by NoMoreFun »
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Warfreak2

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2013, 12:07:46 pm »
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Here's a version of Whittler with a simpler phrasing. It plays quite differently obviously.

Whittler, Action, $6
+1 Action
---
While this is in play, when you play another Action card, trash it, then gain an Action card costing less than it, playing the gained card immediately.


I would go with the triple duration (which is in fact, the concept of the card), but it's going to be hard to keep track of, especially since this may be a card you'd buy lots of. This way it's just like any other duration for tracking.
That's a fair point, I suppose.


Trashing gold is a terrible idea in most kingdoms. Upgrading actions having played them is nice, although I don't find myself using upgrade on actions particularly often (and $1 is worse than +1 card for anything but terminal actions). It is an extremely versatile card and I didn't particularly want it to give $1 (it just felt wrong having a treasure that didn't increase your buying power at all).
I think trashing a Gold to gain a KC is a great idea, and it's something both this card and Counterfeit are able to do. With Upgrade, you would typically do it even though you won't get +$3 from also playing the Gold. You will usually not Upgrade Action cards because you want to play them instead. With this, that's not a consideration.

Horn of Plenty is a Treasure which gains, and that produces $0.

This just compares too favourably with good $5 cards (Upgrade and Counterfeit), there's no way it's balanced at $4.


* I think Serf is fine at $4 as you either have to trash your estates or buy 4 to make it really start self chaining, and then it chokes on green once you start greening in earnest. Also the last Serf in the chain is a copper/chancellor. Furthermore having multiple Serfs in your hand (which is likely if you have a high density of them) is actually of no benefit to you. It's pretty much a different take on a "half harem"; drawing a dead card is slightly better than drawing nothing.
Being able to trash your Estates is quite typical, even Trade Route, Develop or Transmute are enough for that. There's also games with Shelters. Besides, most Peddler variants require some light trashing to start chaining effectively. If you are buying these, your plan has to be not drawing dead cards.


* Whittler is a cantrip because it's a very kingdom dependent card. I had to make it $6 or else it would be too easy for another Whittler to be in the chain (you can still do self chaining; you just have to sacrifice a very good card). As a cantrip it's not entirely unreasonable that you'd buy it for $6 just to trash coppers and estates without the card really going off. This is the most "novelty" card of the set.
My thought was that you are almost always going to get at least +1 Card and +1 Action out of the chain of cards you play; very likely you're going to draw a lot and have a lot of actions anyway. If the board is so weak that you can't do that, +1 Card +1 Action isn't going to make Whittler viable.


* Enchanters wording was an attempt to be similar to embargo. There's only one hex token, and it's only supposed to turn terminals into cursers.
A better wording could be: "In games using this, at the end of your Action phase, if you played a card from the pile with the Hex token, and have no Actions remaining, each other player gains a Curse." It would be interesting to have +Actions not always be good, and it rewards players who have a good balance of villages and terminals.

Back to the drawing board, although I don't think cost increases should be written off entirely. It will take quite a lot of them (although admittedly that's not that hard to do with a cantrip) to lock out other players.
I think cost increasers should be written off entirely. Even if they aren't spammable (make them expensive terminals), there are going to be multiplayer games where P1 plays it, P2 plays it, P3 plays it, and then P4 cries.


* With Patrol, a key feature is that you get to bottom deck the $4 you choose. This isn't quite as good as top decking obviously, but it is an advantage, and there's also the fact that you can stack cards as you buy them on the bottom. It will be good for Treasure map, as an obvious example (although I hate that card and I don't care if it makes recruiter broken).
You could still make Patrol $4, gaining $4 or cheaper to the bottom of your deck; the attack is so weak, it wouldn't matter so much that it would be strictly better to get almost every other $4 card via a Patrol buy, you're still using the other $4 cards, you're just gaining them instead of buying them.


* Philanthropist and Benefactor are not even remotely similar in terms of how they play. The fact that one's terminal and the other's a cantrip is enough to imply that. A sort of idea with this set is that there are multiple cards that sort of match up to each other; that's why there's 2 "when reveal" cards, 3 cards that resolve events, 3 cards that give Cells, etc.
It's primarily a Big Money card. If you're playing an engine, you want to attack your opponent, not give them free Golds. Sure, there are differences in how they play, but "everyone gains a Treasure card you choose, you gain it in a different way" is a pretty specific card, I can't imagine why you'd need more than one of them.


* Why do you think Revolutionary is bad? It's a Possessed Cellar+Lab, so it would play a little differently to Advisor (which I think is a decent card). My main concern is that it places a big strategic burden on the player to your left, as they really have to think about whether the card they discard is likely to be better or worse than the card that will replace it, instead of just picking the best card of 3 or 5 to deny you. Also, a lot of draw to X combos will work very well; especially in this set with Cells.
Pillage? You pay $5 and spend an action to do this to your opponent once, making them discard only one card, because it's really good to be able to discard their best card from their hand; making them draw a card, on the other hand, you routinely do that with Council Room or Soothsayer, no big deal. Being able to play two Pillages on the same hand is almost always devastating. Deciding what cards are above your average is also hardly a burden, c.f. Spy, Oracle; if you will play 5 Scrying Pools, you even have to decide whether a card is in the bottom 20% of someone's deck. How is it a burden to have to choose what good cards you will discard?

Advisor is good when you will normally draw two or three good cards, because they can only make you discard one of them. This lets them make you discard as many as they want. So there are a few games where you can play like, four Oases and then one of these revealing an empty hand. It's probably playable with Festival or Candlestick Maker; maybe I'm being a bit harsh and it could be quite good with Chapel and a high village density so you can play as many cards as possible first. It combos with your junk card Cell, though I think that says more about how weak Cell-giving attacks are than how good this is.

There is an official card that is only really playable in games full of cards from its own expansion, it's a long-running joke on these forums.
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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2013, 02:56:34 pm »
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Quote
Fool: The card below it is not "in the supply" when a Fool is on top, so Ambassador can't return it.

Ambassador should be able to pass the card. You can also return a ruins, no matter which is on top. In multiplayer games, it could matter.
Ambassador can return Ruins because Ruins are in the supply. Fool specifically says that the pile below it is not in the supply, so Ambassador can't return cards from it.

If the Curse pile is empty, Curse is not in the supply. I can still return a Curse with Ambassador.

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2013, 03:00:21 pm »
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"Empty pile" is not equal to "Not in Supply" in definition of Dominion, I think.

As you can't return Prizes or Spoils, you're unable to return Fool. I just misread, why they should be "passable".
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NoMoreFun

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2013, 03:25:25 pm »
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I guess a theme of this expansion is "space/time" theme, which more thoroughly explores how a card's nature can change depending on where it goes and when it's played. Events definitely will highlight that. The treasure "wash" cards do a good job of highlighting that sort of thing, and I think the difference between the 2 cards is in itself a highlighting factor.

On the Cell Attacks:
A common fan card idea is "+2 Cards, discard cards for actions". It's too good for $4, not good enough for $5. I thought about how the card would be without the +2 Cards, and realised it was sort of Junk. Then I thought it would be a clever way to have a Militia style Attack encapsulated in a card, which allowed for some often proposed ideas to work. Also, the idea of infinitely recurring Junk seemed like something different to what's usually in the game. In order for things not to get ridiculous, and to keep the card count low, they all need to Self Moat in some way.

Oppressor: This is a way of doing a "next turn" Militia. I also want to explore cards that slowed you down in subtle ways, so this slows down your reshuffle by one; the Copper effect of Benefactor is another attempt at this. To contrast this I wanted the top to speed you up, so I picked the Navigator esque effect.

Escape Artist: A bit more versatility and a weak, Urchin style attack should make the card a competitive $5

Patrol: I want there to be 3 cards that give out Cells (similar to how there were 3 ruins cards, and 3 spoils cards) and also noticed that another unexplored thing was when gain Militias. This is for a good reason as you could have the rug pulled out from under you instantly with such a card, but you can see the Cell coming. Top Decking and Hand were taken, so the one that's left is Bottom Decking - a favourite of mine (one of my early posts is a bunch of card ideas that use bottom decking). I found something nice to pair it with as a single card. It does seem a bit weak though; perhaps there's nothing wrong with 2 topdeckers.

Other notes:
I came up with Opportunist quickly when I realised that "when reveal, +1 card" wasn't impossible to deal with. That's the point of the card; the event discard is a way of having the reveal effect come out regardless of the kingdom, and that 3rd Event card I was looking for (plus a pure reaction yay). Same goes for Beauty.

On Cargo:
Horn of plenty is a $0 treasure but it always gains a card and even then it's quite a bizarre card. It's quite obvious what the trinket "chain" is trying to do. A treasure that gives $0 that may do nothing but trash a copper, though, doesn't seem quite right. There's far too many things I like that Cargo explores (fixing feast, on trash instant $, trashing cards in play, a card that "deactivates" itself). It's one of my favourite cards; too bad it's overpowered.
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eHalcyon

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2013, 04:08:07 pm »
+1

I like your idea to have players choose trinkets in reverse order.

One concern -- does the game still work if you have a kingdom of 10 Singles?

Fool -- not quite sure what you mean with BoM.  If you do it with BoM, you'd still have to buy the BoM for $5, right?  Once it's back in the pile, it becomes BoM again, even if it's on top of something else?

Fool could do some weird things with Ambassador.  If I reveal Fool, I should be allowed to return it to any Supply pile with Fool on top, and there may be more than one.  And then what happens after that?  Do players have to gain a Fool from the original pile, or from any Supply pile with a Fool on top?  Who gets to choose?  These things are not clearly defined.


Commune -- needs a bit of rewording, I think: "Now and at the start of each turn you have this in play".  Without some anchor like that, I think some people may be confused about who gets the benefit.  That is, you play Commune.  Now at the start of my turn, Commune is in play so I get to draw up to 6 cards?  Presumably not, because you say it can be bought and gained from other players.


Benefactor -- how does it do more harm than good?  Lighthouse maybe ("ha, you don't get to gain a Gold!") but you can choose not to reveal Moat.  The copper bit is worrying because that IS quite attack-ish.  Maybe OK anyway.


Scholar -- doesn't need "you may" at the start; it's redundant with "any number" (which could be zero).  Second sentence has a comma splice.  This is a weird card.  No idea how strong it is.  Instinct makes me think it should be $4 but I have nothing to base that on.  Interesting concept!


Capital -- Weird Village variant, I guess.  Not as good with card draw, but if you play a non-draw (or even a discarder) then you can make it an activated City or better.  The good use cases should be fairly common, so I suspect that this warrants a $4 cost.  Unsure though.  Interesting, but I think I prefer the simplicity of WW's Production Village. 


Opportunist -- On-reveal is a bit confusing.  Your example is helpful but the timing is still tricky (wrt how the card you drew doesn't get revealed).  It can happen other ways too -- Hunting Party, for example.  You reveal an Opportunist, immediately drawing a card which isn't revealed to HP so HP might find a duplicate of the card you just drew.  Weird.

Weren't Events generally neutral (some good, some bad)?  If so, why would I want to buy a pure Reaction for the chance to resolve Events?  The +1 card on reveal might be helpful but that won't be usable in every game (without other revealers, you can only trigger it when someone else buys Treasure, in which case it's like I never had Opportunist in my hand at all, events aside; if nobody buys Treasure, then Opportunist is just a dead card).


Philanthropist -- For clarity, should probably say "copy of the named card".  Not sure how strong this is.  I don't really like that this is a non-terminal card that can flood your opponents with Treasure.  I guess there's Governor.


Revolutionary -- I suppose this still suffers from ambiguity as to whether the player chooses just the number of the actual cards to discard.  I can't remember what wording I suggested before (maybe it's even what you're using now) but this is still ambiguous.  And it's also redundant with the "may" there.  Hmm, maybe something like this:

"The player to your left chooses which cards you discard, if any."


Rear Admiral -- Seems too powerful.  It is almost strictly better than Courtyard in that you can put cards anywhere rather than only on top, and in that it attacks other players.  Courtyard is already better than Smithy much of the time.  With this attack, I think RA should be a $5.  Granted, the attack maybe isn't that strong because the opponent can also put the card anywhere.  Ehh.


Repair -- I still wonder about this one.


Tower -- Wording is a bit confusing.  I think you mean this: "At the end of the game, each card is worth 1VP per Tower token on its Supply pile".  Is that right?  My wording is a bit rough too.  It might need to say "worth an extra 1VP" because otherwise one could interpret it as meaning (for example) that Province gets reduced to 1VP if there is one Tower token on it.  And there may also be confusion if a Supply pile runs out.


Oppressor -- Wording could be clearer; there are currently some grammar gymnastics there. :P  I think: "Each other player reveals the top card of his deck.  If it is not a Cell then he gains a Cell, putting it on top of his deck."

The filtering sounds super powerful at first, but it's terminal and doesn't even increase your hand size so it's probably aright.  Probably too weak for $5, so $4 sounds good.

The extreme filtering seems pretty disconnected from the attack.


Escape Artist -- Seems quite weak to me.  Oh wait, you end up gaining a Cell and then immediately playing it... OK, I guess.


Beauty -- Without the on-reveal, seems fairly interesting.  It's like an even more selective Farming Village.  That's pretty neat.  Would be simpler if it just discarded everything else, but I guess it's OK to put the junk in your hand.  You've put it at $5 so it can have a bit of extra strength, plus it makes it a bit more possible to skillfully trigger a reshuffle to make a bunch of green miss it.

I don't like the on-reveal.  I think on-reveal is too tricky to begin with, but this one doesn't work so well anyway.  It's unrelated to the action, Silvers get skipped by Beauty anyway, and if you are building a Beauty engine then extra Silvers will just get in the way.  Everything else is cool though.


Blockade -- Missing a price.  I presume it's $5, like the others in this section.  You've got the vanillas in the wrong order (Card comes before Action).

OK, so the main action and the "while in play" makes it equivalent to Junk Dealer unless you Buy more than one thing, in which case it is worse that JD.  But you also sort of get a Duration effect out of it.  Even trashing Copper, you'll get an extra Card next turn (more if you play more than one Blockade).  Trashing Estate is even better -- 3 extra cards next turn!

I'm not convinced that the cost increase downside makes up for the strength of the "duration".  Maybe if Blockade was an actual Duration, hurting your next turn's buying power even while granting extra cards.  Not sure.  Tricky concept.

Oh, but if it is actually a Duration, then it's a cost increaser on other players' turns.  That is a concept I despise.


Vendor -- I think this should cost $6, because otherwise it is like a more flexible Cache.  At $6, it still gives a small discount but the main thing it does is it acts as a restricted and always-available source of +Buy.  That's still plenty interesting.

(PPE: oh man, WarFreak brings up a great point about how Vendor is recursively broken; add in "other than Vendor").


Patrol -- Wording again.  "If it is not a Cell" is clearer than "if it is any other card".  And you can just say "gains a Cell from the Cell pile, putting it on the bottom of his deck".  You don't need to say "any cards gained this way" because they'll only be gaining Cells, right?

In case it isn't clear, the ambiguity in the first part is because "any other card" doesn't explicitly state what card it is comparing too.  Probably you mean, "any card other than Cell", but that's only implied.  In this particular case, it's also a reasonable interpretation that you mean "any card other than the cheaper card you gained".


Recruiter -- Need an FAQ for this, I think.  Can I play any number of cards from my Recruiter mat?  Or is it just like an extension of my hand (that is not counted for things like Library)?  I assme the latter.


Enchanter -- Also a bit unclear which pile... I think I understand though.  I play Smithy and have no actions left; now each player gains 2 Curses if there are 2 Hex tokens on the Smithy pile.  Correct?  Although it's a bit weird -- the main instruction suggests that there is only one Hex token, but if that's the case then why does the latter instruction say "per Hex token"?

Wording suggestion: "When you would gain this, instead move a Hex token to any Action card's supply pile.  Piles with a Hex token are "hexed".  // When you play a hexed card, if you have no actions remaining, each other player gains a Curse [per Hex token on its pile]."

It's worth noting that this can be a completely dead card in kingdoms without actions.

(PPE: WarFreak makes a good point about how it is broken...)


Whittler -- Ugh.  I remember seeing a similar card in the Mini-Set Design Contest which was, I believe, a joke entry. 

This is just asking for massive tracking issues.  So, so many tracking issues.  You can end up playing and trashing SEVEN separate actions.  That's seven effects you've received which are no longer in your player area.  And that's not even considering that one of those actions might be yet another Whittler.  That's just insane.  And then you consider that this is non-terminal.  And then throw in KC-Whittler.  This is the first one I've read here that I would toss into the Bad Ideas thread, sorry!


Trinkets -- Quite a bit of variation makes them vary heavily in power depending on the kingdom.  Still, your reverse player order idea is pretty nice for dealing with this issue.


Overall -- several of the Events cards seem weak because the effects (good or bad) are symmetric; it's therefore not worth it for me to do anything to trigger Events.  That's especially true for the pure reaction, which is a dead card much of the time and, even in the best case, helps opponents as much as me, or hurts me as much as opponents.

I like some of the Single cards, but I think many of them could end up being dead piles in certain kingdoms.  Many of them rely on there being regular piles around.  You need to think about what would happen in a kingdom without actions, or with a bunch of singles.  It may be necessary to include a rule that there is no more than one (two?) Single card in a Kingdom.
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Warfreak2

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2013, 04:31:59 pm »
+1

Fool could do some weird things with Ambassador.  If I reveal Fool, I should be allowed to return it to any Supply pile with Fool on top, and there may be more than one.
That's impossible, as there's only one Fool card. I suspect you could in fact return it to any supply pile you want, though it hardly matters except for Moat, Lighthouse &c.


Benefactor -- how does it do more harm than good?  Lighthouse maybe ("ha, you don't get to gain a Gold!") but you can choose not to reveal Moat.  The copper bit is worrying because that IS quite attack-ish.  Maybe OK anyway.
They would have to reveal Moat when you play the card, which is before you choose the Treasure. So if they reveal the Moat, you will choose Gold for sure, but not revealing the Moat doesn't mean they get to gain a Gold.


Opportunist -- On-reveal is a bit confusing.  Your example is helpful but the timing is still tricky (wrt how the card you drew doesn't get revealed).  It can happen other ways too -- Hunting Party, for example.  You reveal an Opportunist, immediately drawing a card which isn't revealed to HP so HP might find a duplicate of the card you just drew.  Weird.
That seems wrong, "reveal cards from your deck until" should be treated as an atomic operation, like Chapel trashing Overgrown Estate doesn't draw a card until you chose and trashed. You would reveal cards until you put one in your hand, discarding the rest, and then draw an extra card per Opportunist revealed.


Tower -- Wording is a bit confusing.  I think you mean this: "At the end of the game, each card is worth 1VP per Tower token on its Supply pile".  Is that right?  My wording is a bit rough too.  It might need to say "worth an extra 1VP" because otherwise one could interpret it as meaning (for example) that Province gets reduced to 1VP if there is one Tower token on it.  And there may also be confusion if a Supply pile runs out.
You can't Tower the Provinces as they aren't a kingdom supply pile, but this does apply to Tunnel, Nobles &c.




Vendor -- I think this should cost $6, because otherwise it is like a more flexible Cache.  At $6, it still gives a small discount but the main thing it does is it acts as a restricted and always-available source of +Buy.  That's still plenty interesting.

(PPE: oh man, WarFreak brings up a great point about how Vendor is recursively broken; add in "other than Vendor").
It's not strictly better than Cache, though, even if Poor House is on the board you would still prefer your Gold to come with two Coppers than a Poor House and a Copper. And Cache is weak, so I think it's fine (except for shenanigans).


Patrol -- Wording again.  "If it is not a Cell" is clearer than "if it is any other card".  And you can just say "gains a Cell from the Cell pile, putting it on the bottom of his deck".  You don't need to say "any cards gained this way" because they'll only be gaining Cells, right?
The intention is that the card you gain is also put on the bottom of your deck, but I think it would be cleaner to just say both of those separately.



It's worth noting that this can be a completely dead card in kingdoms without actions.
So is Village, so that's not a concern.


Whittler -- Ugh.  I remember seeing a similar card in the Mini-Set Design Contest which was, I believe, a joke entry. 

This is just asking for massive tracking issues.  So, so many tracking issues.  You can end up playing and trashing SEVEN separate actions.  That's seven effects you've received which are no longer in your player area.  And that's not even considering that one of those actions might be yet another Whittler.  That's just insane.  And then you consider that this is non-terminal.  And then throw in KC-Whittler.  This is the first one I've read here that I would toss into the Bad Ideas thread, sorry!
This is a remarkably good point, which makes Whittler something of an online-only card. Here's a modified version of my version:

Whittler, Action, $6
+1 Action
At the beginning of your buy phase, trash all other Action cards you have in play.
---
While this is in play, when you play another Action card, gain an Action card costing less than it, playing the gained card immediately.

Obviously you would never want to play KC/Whittler, as you only get 2 more actions, at the cost of trashing your KC.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2013, 04:38:36 pm by Warfreak2 »
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NoMoreFun

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2013, 04:56:33 pm »
0

Hunting party does create a tracking issue, because the hand you revealed is no longer your actual hand, so if you take the effects sequentially there's an issue. I think though that the intention is that you have them both "revealed" at once, as the animation appears on Goko. With that you'd do everything up to putting the card in your hand, activate any "when reveal" effects, then finish the action.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #16 on: July 12, 2013, 05:01:49 pm »
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Vendor is better than Cache, but the only games in which that would matter are when they're both on the board, and in that case they complement each other (eg you could get Cache+4 coppers, Cache+$2 Card+3 Coppers)? There's also some subtle differences between the 2 such as if Thief/Noble Brigand are on the board.

Edit:
On Rear Admiral, it's an "attack", but your opponent putting one card anywhere in their deck isn't likely to hurt much and can often be helpful. The attack's just there to distinguish it a little bit from Courtyard; I wanted the "anywhere in your deck" effect in the set somewhere.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2013, 05:04:58 pm by NoMoreFun »
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #17 on: July 12, 2013, 05:09:43 pm »
+1

I play Whittler, trashing Catacombs, gaining Procession and not playing it, then gain Procession, playing it, playing Capital twice, playing an action, then drawing up to 5, playing Minion to discard and draw 4, then draw up to 5, then trash Capital and gain Procession, trash Procession, gain and play Capital, playing Procession, playing Capital twice, playing Minion, discarding and drawing 4, draw up to 5, play Minion, draw up to 5, trash Capital, gain Procession, trash Capital, gain and play Squire, trash Squire, gain Minion...This card is going to be impossibly difficult to play IRL.  I can't even begin to imagine what happens when I use a Whittler to gain and play Whittler...

For the most part I like this set so far.  If you're looking for more singles, Rival Markets might be fine as a single (although it might suck to miss it when you have $5).
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eHalcyon

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #18 on: July 12, 2013, 05:14:20 pm »
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Oh, I missed that Fool was a single.

That seems wrong, "reveal cards from your deck until" should be treated as an atomic operation, like Chapel trashing Overgrown Estate doesn't draw a card until you chose and trashed. You would reveal cards until you put one in your hand, discarding the rest, and then draw an extra card per Opportunist revealed.

No.  With Chapel, you choose up to 4 cards then trash them all at once.  Revealing cards (at least with HP) can't be an atomic action because you have to reveal one at a time.

Not to mention, HP also reveals your hand.

Quote
It's not strictly better than Cache, though, even if Poor House is on the board you would still prefer your Gold to come with two Coppers than a Poor House and a Copper. And Cache is weak, so I think it's fine (except for shenanigans).

Vendor says "up to $7", not "exactly".  So yeah, if Vendor is on the board, you can gain Gold and 2 Coppers even if Poor House is around.

It doesn't matter that Cache is weak -- you still shouldn't have something strictly superior.

Quote
So is Village, so that's not a concern.

Fair enough.  But it's much more common with this expansion because there are a bunch of Singles around.
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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #19 on: July 12, 2013, 05:40:12 pm »
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Commune
Action/Duration/Single - $2
Now, and the start of every turn this is in play: Draw until you have 6 cards in hand.
---
While this card is in play, it is also in the Supply.

(In the supply means the card can be bought and gained)
This sounds quite fun in 2p, but with more players, I think it will be a bit too political. However, I think I would rise the price, at $2 there's often nothing to buy anyway..?
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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #20 on: July 12, 2013, 07:29:02 pm »
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"Empty pile" is not equal to "Not in Supply" in definition of Dominion, I think.

It is not, but "empty pile" implies "not in the supply". You can see this from the fact that Band of Misfits tells you to play it "as if it was a card in the supply", and that you cannot play Band of Misfits as a card from an empty pile.

We usually think of cards like Spoils when mentioning cards "not in the supply", but there are other cases. Empty piles are one. Covered up cards are another, which is why BoM cannot copy covered up Ruins (or a covered Sir Buyalot). Neither case has any meaning for Ambassador, though.

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #21 on: July 12, 2013, 09:26:31 pm »
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"Empty pile" is not equal to "Not in Supply" in definition of Dominion, I think.

It is not, but "empty pile" implies "not in the supply". You can see this from the fact that Band of Misfits tells you to play it "as if it was a card in the supply", and that you cannot play Band of Misfits as a card from an empty pile.
It's the cards that aren't in the supply and BoM cards about cards. The pile is still in the supply, and Ambassador cares about piles.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #22 on: July 12, 2013, 10:20:51 pm »
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Quote
It's not strictly better than Cache, though, even if Poor House is on the board you would still prefer your Gold to come with two Coppers than a Poor House and a Copper. And Cache is weak, so I think it's fine (except for shenanigans).

Vendor says "up to $7", not "exactly".  So yeah, if Vendor is on the board, you can gain Gold and 2 Coppers even if Poor House is around.

It doesn't matter that Cache is weak -- you still shouldn't have something strictly superior.


Strictly superior is only a problem when both cards are in the kingdom and you'd buy X over Y every single time. Cache can be one of Vendor's 3 cards when you gain it, so this is not the case. That balance paradigm may very well come up with future cards, especially Singles.

I play Whittler, trashing Catacombs, gaining Procession and not playing it, then gain Procession, playing it, playing Capital twice, playing an action, then drawing up to 5, playing Minion to discard and draw 4, then draw up to 5, then trash Capital and gain Procession, trash Procession, gain and play Capital, playing Procession, playing Capital twice, playing Minion, discarding and drawing 4, draw up to 5, play Minion, draw up to 5, trash Capital, gain Procession, trash Capital, gain and play Squire, trash Squire, gain Minion...This card is going to be impossibly difficult to play IRL.  I can't even begin to imagine what happens when I use a Whittler to gain and play Whittler...

For the most part I like this set so far.  If you're looking for more singles, Rival Markets might be fine as a single (although it might suck to miss it when you have $5).

You're right about Whittler. Some cards like KC can do similarly ridiculous chains, but with whittler you might be able to do something ridiculous just by using a whittler to trash a Gold. Luckily Whittler can't call upon itself unless you trash a $7+ card, which is a tall order in almost every kingdom (I think a Forge outliving its usefulness is the best target).

Definitely back to the drawing board there. I just thought it would be fun, and "play a bunch of actions you don't own" seemed like a different enough take on deck thinning TfB. Blockade already fills that niche for this set though. Perhaps a way will present itself.

As for Rival Markets, the idea is it's probably the best engine piece, but it you want to use it to build that Engine, you will have to keep covering the $3 deficit with your hard earned coin. This requires multiples of them being in the kingdom.
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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #23 on: July 13, 2013, 12:21:48 am »
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This is great! This expansion is really coming along with Dark Ages-esque strategic, interesting and awesome cards. Top job! Really like the new concepts and ways to play that this set brings with the singles, trinkets and cells and what not. Singles are a great way of doing what they do, I was thinking of making a card that when you buy it, you follow a set of instructions, then trash the card immediately, so it never ends up in your deck, but the singles work even better for what you are doing, however it may not work as well for my card.
Excellent stuff +1!
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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #24 on: July 13, 2013, 07:26:47 am »
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"Empty pile" is not equal to "Not in Supply" in definition of Dominion, I think.

It is not, but "empty pile" implies "not in the supply". You can see this from the fact that Band of Misfits tells you to play it "as if it was a card in the supply", and that you cannot play Band of Misfits as a card from an empty pile.
It's the cards that aren't in the supply and BoM cards about cards. The pile is still in the supply, and Ambassador cares about piles.

That was my point, you know. NoMoreFun's logic was that if the cards are covered up, they cannot be returned with Ambassador, because they are not in the supply. As you pointed out, the pile still is, so they can.

What he would have to aim for would be the actual pile not being part of the supply anymore, as with Spoils. To reach that, it has to say so on the card itself. Simply covering the pile doesn't help, rule-wise.

The problem is that simply declaring "Put this on any kingdom card supply pile. While it is there, that pile is not part of the supply" wouldn't solve it, because Fool could not be gained anymore and the pile would stay blocked forever.

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #25 on: July 13, 2013, 08:26:15 am »
+1

"Empty pile" is not equal to "Not in Supply" in definition of Dominion, I think.

It is not, but "empty pile" implies "not in the supply". You can see this from the fact that Band of Misfits tells you to play it "as if it was a card in the supply", and that you cannot play Band of Misfits as a card from an empty pile.
It's the cards that aren't in the supply and BoM cards about cards. The pile is still in the supply, and Ambassador cares about piles.

That was my point, you know. NoMoreFun's logic was that if the cards are covered up, they cannot be returned with Ambassador, because they are not in the supply. As you pointed out, the pile still is, so they can.

What he would have to aim for would be the actual pile not being part of the supply anymore, as with Spoils. To reach that, it has to say so on the card itself. Simply covering the pile doesn't help, rule-wise.

The problem is that simply declaring "Put this on any kingdom card supply pile. While it is there, that pile is not part of the supply" wouldn't solve it, because Fool could not be gained anymore and the pile would stay blocked forever.
You can declare "Put this is on any kingdom card supply pile. While it is there, that pile is the Fool pile".
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NoMoreFun

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #26 on: July 13, 2013, 04:31:23 pm »
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I'm thinking something like Dominion: Household or Dominion: Abode for the expansion name, as it sort of works into the location theme, and has a nice bit of irony with Cells. I'll rename some cards to correspond better with types of house, household chores etc.

Some images:

« Last Edit: July 13, 2013, 04:41:13 pm by NoMoreFun »
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NoMoreFun

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #27 on: July 13, 2013, 05:26:53 pm »
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One thing I have come to appreciate is that the official Dominion cards have no set art style, which makes finding card art a lot of fun.



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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #28 on: July 13, 2013, 06:52:21 pm »
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Is the art public domain?  If not, the courteous thing to do is ask the artist, and at least include the attribution at the bottom.
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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #29 on: July 13, 2013, 09:16:35 pm »
+1

Is the art public domain?  If not, the courteous thing to do is ask the artist, and at least include the attribution at the bottom.

I just googled various things; I don't even remember where some of these pictures came from. These are just fan cards for now; if I ever get around to putting the expansion up on BGG I'll be more careful.
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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #30 on: July 16, 2013, 08:46:22 am »
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I like the idea for Musketeers, but isn't it a bit weak? It's a Peddler split in three, but it is terminal, which makes it bad where Peddler would be useful. Also i feel it's very hard to build a strategy on a bonus that takes two turns to happen, and the additional card is not even Militia-safe. And of course there's the old duration-reshuffle-thing. I'd probably make it a 2$ and maybe think about having the action this turn instead of next.

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #31 on: July 16, 2013, 11:33:58 am »
+1

Strictly better Lab?

EDIT: In reference to Escape Artist.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2013, 12:20:36 pm by Drab Emordnilap »
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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #32 on: July 16, 2013, 11:40:25 am »
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Strictly better Lab?

Of course not. Firstly, there is the same drawback Caravan has, the duration part. Secondly, the additional card has only little effect if your opponent plays a handsize-reducer. Finally, there is a quite weak bonus for the not-duration turn, so it is not strictly but most of the time weaker than Caravan, so $3 seems fine.
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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #33 on: July 16, 2013, 11:59:45 am »
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Strictly better Lab?

Of course not. Firstly, there is the same drawback Caravan has, the duration part. Secondly, the additional card has only little effect if your opponent plays a handsize-reducer. Finally, there is a quite weak bonus for the not-duration turn, so it is not strictly but most of the time weaker than Caravan, so $3 seems fine.

I'm pretty sure this was about Escape Artist.
It's not exactly "strictly" better than Lab because in some situations you'd probably want a cell in your hand. But as most of the time you wouldn't, it's better nonetheless.

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #34 on: July 16, 2013, 02:03:12 pm »
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Strictly better Lab?

EDIT: In reference to Escape Artist.

No because you've got the cell in your hand to deal with. Other than the first one, which gives everyone a Cell, it then goes on  to be largely identical to Lab.

I just thought the "you may play a cell" wording was too wonky.
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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #35 on: July 16, 2013, 02:12:12 pm »
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Strictly better Lab?

EDIT: In reference to Escape Artist.

No because you've got the cell in your hand to deal with. Other than the first one, which gives everyone a Cell, it then goes on  to be largely identical to Lab.

I just thought the "you may play a cell" wording was too wonky.

Oh, it says "each player", not "each other player".
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ConMan

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #36 on: July 16, 2013, 07:05:55 pm »
+1

Is the art public domain?  If not, the courteous thing to do is ask the artist, and at least include the attribution at the bottom.

I just googled various things; I don't even remember where some of these pictures came from. These are just fan cards for now; if I ever get around to putting the expansion up on BGG I'll be more careful.
The Cell image is from Apollo Justice: Ace Attorney.
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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #37 on: July 16, 2013, 08:47:56 pm »
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The Cell image is from Apollo Justice: Ace Attorney.

Man, I'm replaying that chapter right now, and I still didn't catch that.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2013, 10:21:03 pm by LastFootnote »
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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #38 on: July 17, 2013, 12:21:47 am »
+1

The Cell image is from Apollo Justice: Ace Attorney.
Man, I'm replaying that chapter right now, and I still didn't catch that.
I noticed it because I first thought "Why is that a cell? It's clearly a library, what with the bookshelves and comfy chair. No wait, it's got bars, so it's actually a prison cell. Why is that familiar? Oh yeah!"
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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #39 on: July 17, 2013, 08:31:52 am »
+1

The Cell image is from Apollo Justice: Ace Attorney.
Man, I'm replaying that chapter right now, and I still didn't catch that.
I noticed it because I first thought "Why is that a cell? It's clearly a library, what with the bookshelves and comfy chair. No wait, it's got bars, so it's actually a prison cell. Why is that familiar? Oh yeah!"

"Put the prisoner in... the comfy chair!!"

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #40 on: July 25, 2013, 11:48:04 pm »
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NoMoreFun, any plans to update the OP? I was going to critique the cards, but WarFreak said pretty much everything I was going to. I'm interested to see where the set will go next.
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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #41 on: July 26, 2013, 12:10:02 am »
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Just a random note, the Cell should say "Return this to the Cell pile" instead of the whole weird trashing thingy.  Unless you were wanting it to not be trashable...
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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #42 on: July 26, 2013, 02:26:11 am »
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NoMoreFun, any plans to update the OP? I was going to critique the cards, but WarFreak said pretty much everything I was going to. I'm interested to see where the set will go next.

Much later on. Not really paying much attention ATM. Next update will be flagged with a post.

Just a random note, the Cell should say "Return this to the Cell pile" instead of the whole weird trashing thingy.  Unless you were wanting it to not be trashable...

I don't want it to be trashable. The idea is that Cells are weak junk that nonetheless remain an ever present force throughout the game.

I might change escape artist to

Blacksmith
Action/Attack - $5
+2 Cards
Each player may reveal a Cell from his hand. If he doesn't, he gains a Cell from the Cell pile, putting it in his hand.
Reveal a card from your hand. If it's an...
Action Card: Play it
Treasure Card: +$1
Victory Card: +1 Card
Trash the revealed card.

This is essentially merging 2 cards that I think are too good for $4, and not good enough for $5.
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Guy Srinivasan

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #43 on: July 26, 2013, 01:22:09 pm »
+1

Capital
Action - $3
+1 Action
You may play an action card from your hand.
Draw until you have 5 cards in hand.
Capital is not in tail form!

Calling subroutines from cards where the call is not the last thing that card can do this turn introduces lots of tracking... Picture playing Capital, (King's Court, (King's Court x3, (Vault x3), (Capital x3 (Smithy) draw to 5 (Tactician) draw to 5 (Cellar) draw to 5) (Vault x3)) draw to 5.

What about
Capital
Action - $3
+1 Action
You may set aside an action card from your hand.
Draw until you have 5 cards in hand.
If you set aside an action card, play it.

Or did you want the recursion trickeries and tracking that comes with it?
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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #44 on: July 27, 2013, 01:05:09 am »
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Capital
Action - $3
+1 Action
You may play an action card from your hand.
Draw until you have 5 cards in hand.
Capital is not in tail form!

Calling subroutines from cards where the call is not the last thing that card can do this turn introduces lots of tracking... Picture playing Capital, (King's Court, (King's Court x3, (Vault x3), (Capital x3 (Smithy) draw to 5 (Tactician) draw to 5 (Cellar) draw to 5) (Vault x3)) draw to 5.

What about
Capital
Action - $3
+1 Action
You may set aside an action card from your hand.
Draw until you have 5 cards in hand.
If you set aside an action card, play it.

Or did you want the recursion trickeries and tracking that comes with it?
I noticed this as well, but then I thought "well Procession does that, so it can't be that big of a deal".  I think your version might be too strong.  I think the idea was that if you use it in a Village-Smithy type engine, the "draw up to 5" doesn't help.  With your version, in a village-smithy type engine, you draw up to 5, then draw with your drawer, which is a lot more powerful.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #45 on: July 28, 2013, 06:59:42 am »
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I just noticed how well Capital combos with Tactician. I could probably leave it as one of those Trader/Feodum combos (obvious combo that is super strong).

I'm not worried about the tracking though. It's no worse than Procession.

Really I just want to include WW's card "Production Village" in the set, but I can't do that obviously so I came up with something a little different.
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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #46 on: August 05, 2013, 07:35:03 am »
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Enchanter has issues. Your original wording has (as mentioned by others) the problem that "when play" happens before resolving the card, which means Cantrips can act as cursers. Also if i play a terminal card directly after a Village, no Curses are given.

There was Warfreak2's idea to make it look at cards in play, but that solution didn't really help. If the hex card was a Village and i played two terminals after that, players still got a curse. Vice versa, if a play a Village and then a terminal hex card, no curses.

To make it work the way you intended it to do, you would have to do a awful, long wording like this:
"When a player just finishes resolving a card from the pile with the hex token on it, if he has the same number of actions remaining as he had when playing it, each other player gains a curse"
...I think the card idea is nice, but not nice enough to be worth the trouble.

Another thing, one i really don't like, is that the Curse can't be moated even if the card is an attack.

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #47 on: January 26, 2014, 02:51:31 am »
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OP has been updated. There are now 35 cards in what I think is a reasonable ratio of card types and costs. Next step will be making images although I currently lack the ability to do so. I have incorporated some feedback (although not all of it; Revolutionary is still around :P), and it's very helpful so keep it coming.

I've tried to include at least 3 cards of any novel concept (when reveal, pure reaction, durations, event users, cell givers). There may be too many attacks but some of them are very benign like Beauty and Rear Admiral, however there's also Prospector, Patrol and Enchanter which are attacks without the type (I'm weighing up whether to give it to prospector; I don't think the punishment for having a Lighthouse or a Moat should be missing out on gold). In general I've tried to make a lot of interactivity; especially with single cards this set is trying to get away from "group solitaire".

EDIT: A few wording errors like with Retreat.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2014, 03:03:25 am by NoMoreFun »
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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #48 on: January 26, 2014, 09:56:33 am »
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I can't modify the op on my phone.

Barge is "when gain, you may trash a card from your hand" as always. Package is "3 differently named cheaper cards". Whittler should be "do this 3 times", not infinitely doable which makes trashing ok (lots of cards are good with fortress). There's probably more errors
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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #49 on: January 31, 2014, 11:19:03 pm »
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I'm finding "Package" very difficult to get right. In it's current wording you can gain a province with it just for playing a single highway, bridge or the trinket "chain" (with which you could actually open Province). However since the cards have to be differently named, you have to gain a province, a curse and a copper. That doesn't seem too overpowered. I might make chain only reduce the cost of non-victory cards. Wordings like "gain 3 cards with a total cost of up to $2 more than this card" always seemed a bit wonky.

I just wanted to generalise "cache" into a Single card. If cache didn't exist, "when you would gain this, instead gain a Gold and 2 Coppers" could have been a nice single card. Package, even without the "differently named" condition, can coexist with Cache as on boards with both it and Cache, you can include a Cache as one of the cards you gain, so it's not valueless on the board.

I also bumped up the cost of Retreat. The delayed apprentice effect is a good $5 (even though compared to Apprentice it's terminal and delayed), but the "while this is in play" effect is both a Royal Seal effect and a Caravan effect, and when you trash an expensive card, you have a very good idea of what a good number of the cards you're going to get next turn are, and you can therefore buy cards appropriately to set up a megaturn. This is good but when you compare it to Tactician it pretty much has to be a $6 card.

Unless any ideas prove to be unworkable the final set is going to resemble the OP now, so I'm really looking forward to hearing any feedback. If you already looked before, have another look as there are some new ideas like "Labyrinth".

Other things:
  • Musketeers is now Amigos since Musketeers contradicts the vaguely medieval theme. If that does too then I'll change it to "Stooges".
  • Revolutionary wasn't popular, but it's still here. I think it's quite different to Advisor, and is a draw to X that even more heavily emphasises the advantages of Draw to X cards (they get better when you can reduce your handsize on your own terms).
  • I made Patrol a topdecker since it rightfully seemed weak, which led me to make Oppressor a bottom decker (Cells have to be self moating, which gives 3 possibilities as to where they can go). Oppressor seems a bit weak, but giving it a card or coin makes it seem too similar to Cartographer. Fete is only a bottom decker because otherwise the entire "secret gain" thing is ruined, and the wording also works out quite nicely.
  • Now all the non-single durations are terminals that increase your handsize in a later turn, but I feel like they're all different enough and also different enough from Haven, Caravan, Wharf and Tactician. Amigos is the most similar to existing cards but it's the most elegant way of doing the "terminal now, village later" thing (so there's strategy in pacing out the cards), and has the novelty of being a triple duration (with the wording being that way for easier tracking, plus the novelty of being a caravan that isn't protected from attacks).
  • The set has quite a few ways of reacting to Junk Attacks (Bargain, Barge, Repair), especially in a set that introduces a new kind of Junk, but in a set of 35 cards I think that's fine. Repair is truly awful at trashing curses, so it can block them.
  • Rules Clarification for Conquest and Vendor: If there's no such combination of cards that satisfy their conditions (eg you play conquest, all the kingdom cards cost $4 or more and coppers, curses, estates and silvers are empty), then you gain nothing.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 11:38:53 pm by NoMoreFun »
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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #50 on: January 31, 2014, 11:40:54 pm »
+1

I'm finding "Package" very difficult to get right. In it's current wording you can gain a province with it just for playing a single highway, bridge or the trinket "chain" (with which you could actually open Province). However since the cards have to be differently named, you have to gain a province, a curse and a copper. That doesn't seem too overpowered. I might make chain only reduce the cost of non-victory cards. Wordings like "gain 3 cards with a total cost of up to $2 more than this card" always seemed a bit wonky.

Package
Single - $5
When you would gain this, instead, gain 3 differently named cards with a total cost of up to $7, putting them on top of your deck.

That should nerf the Victory card gain while buffing Action and Treasure gains.

EDIT: Oh, and sorry for taking the name Vendor. At least, I'm assuming you changed its name to package due to the card Vendor in my set. If not, I apologize for presuming this was the reason.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 11:57:17 pm by LastFootnote »
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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #51 on: February 01, 2014, 12:15:11 am »
+1

I'm finding "Package" very difficult to get right. In it's current wording you can gain a province with it just for playing a single highway, bridge or the trinket "chain" (with which you could actually open Province). However since the cards have to be differently named, you have to gain a province, a curse and a copper. That doesn't seem too overpowered. I might make chain only reduce the cost of non-victory cards. Wordings like "gain 3 cards with a total cost of up to $2 more than this card" always seemed a bit wonky.

Package
Single - $5
When you would gain this, instead, gain 3 differently named cards with a total cost of up to $7, putting them on top of your deck.

That should nerf the Victory card gain while buffing Action and Treasure gains.

EDIT: Oh, and sorry for taking the name Vendor. At least, I'm assuming you changed its name to package due to the card Vendor in my set. If not, I apologize for presuming this was the reason.

No need to be sorry, as even though it was the reason, I like the name "Package" better and Vendor seems way more appropriate for a card like yours. I'd probably keep the name Vendor if I really was attached to it.

Also thanks for the feedback. "Differently named" means that the most popular options will be a ($4, $3, Copper), or ($5, $2 copper) with a decent $2. It could be too powerful with cards like Throne Room, but on the other hand it will give pause to people doing "Duchy, Estate, Copper" late game. I may very well do this, or say "no victory cards or singles"

EDIT: Gone with the latter option, as I needed to specify "no singles" anyway, and this solves the province and duchy problems decisively. I may still have a problem with "Conquest", as playing a conquest after a Highway is fairly easy, and I don't think there are that many combos of a Cantrip $5 and a terminal $5 that work quite that well. May go with the "no victory cards or singles" clause there as well.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2014, 12:20:15 am by NoMoreFun »
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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #52 on: February 01, 2014, 12:23:03 am »
+1

I'm finding "Package" very difficult to get right. In it's current wording you can gain a province with it just for playing a single highway, bridge or the trinket "chain" (with which you could actually open Province). However since the cards have to be differently named, you have to gain a province, a curse and a copper. That doesn't seem too overpowered. I might make chain only reduce the cost of non-victory cards. Wordings like "gain 3 cards with a total cost of up to $2 more than this card" always seemed a bit wonky.

Package
Single - $5
When you would gain this, instead, gain 3 differently named cards with a total cost of up to $7, putting them on top of your deck.

That should nerf the Victory card gain while buffing Action and Treasure gains.

Also thanks for the feedback. "Differently named" means that the most popular options will be a ($4, $3, Copper), or ($5, $2 copper) with a decent $2. It could be too powerful with cards like Throne Room, but on the other hand it will give pause to people doing "Duchy, Estate, Copper" late game. I may very well do this, or say "no victory cards or singles"

I doubt it'll be too crazy even with Throne Room, but I could be wrong. I'm probably thinking about it more in terms of a normal gainer as opposed to a Single. See, I was thinking about this concept recently (card than gains cards costing up to a total amount). I realized that topdecking the cards could be key for penalizing big Victory point gains. But I don't think I came up with "differently named". I think putting the two together might make this effect doable, either as a Single or as a regular Action card. Mind if I try the Action version myself?

By the way, I think I really like Labyrinth. I hope it works out in testing. I'll go through the whole set in detail when I get the chance.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2014, 12:32:10 am by LastFootnote »
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NoMoreFun

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #53 on: February 01, 2014, 12:28:55 am »
+1

I'm finding "Package" very difficult to get right. In it's current wording you can gain a province with it just for playing a single highway, bridge or the trinket "chain" (with which you could actually open Province). However since the cards have to be differently named, you have to gain a province, a curse and a copper. That doesn't seem too overpowered. I might make chain only reduce the cost of non-victory cards. Wordings like "gain 3 cards with a total cost of up to $2 more than this card" always seemed a bit wonky.

Package
Single - $5
When you would gain this, instead, gain 3 differently named cards with a total cost of up to $7, putting them on top of your deck.

That should nerf the Victory card gain while buffing Action and Treasure gains.

Also thanks for the feedback. "Differently named" means that the most popular options will be a ($4, $3, Copper), or ($5, $2 copper) with a decent $2. It could be too powerful with cards like Throne Room, but on the other hand it will give pause to people doing "Duchy, Estate, Copper" late game. I may very well do this, or say "no victory cards or singles"

I doubt it'll be too crazy even with Throne Room, but I could be wrong. I'm probably thinking about it more in terms of a normal gainer as opposed to a Single. See, I was thinking about this concept recently (card than gains cards costing up to a total amount). I realized that topdecking the cards could be key for penalizing big Victory point gains. But I don't think I came up with "differently named". I think putting the two together might make this effect doable, either as a Single or as a regular Action card. Mind if I try the Action version myself?

By the way, I think I really like Labyrinth. I hope it works out in testing. I'll go through the whole set in detail when I get the chance.

All the ideas are yours.
I was quite happy when I came up with Labyrinth as I've had the "do these in any order" idea for quite some time. I wanted more Draw to X cards, then when I looked at a Draw to X Dungeon I realised it was a good candidate for that old idea. I thought of all 6 scenarios in a normal hand and they all seem fairly fine. It's probably one of the best $4s but in line with cards like Steward, and it can be dangerous later on.

EDIT: Changed the wording in case any of my ideas aren't actually my ideas. Conquest was originally a Gold gainer but I realised the "combined total: made it more interesting and worked well with the Scavenger/Hermit effect. I think I first saw the combined total thing in a fan card called "Thanksgiving". In all honesty my card was heavily inspired by your original idea for Clerk/Dignitary (Gain a Silver, then topdeck a card from your discard pile). I'd like to think we're all working together in the fan card community.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2014, 12:32:54 am by NoMoreFun »
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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #54 on: February 01, 2014, 12:32:18 am »
+1

One more comment:

Quote
Repair
Action/Reaction - $4
Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card that shares a type costing up to $5 more, putting it on top of your deck.
---
When you would gain a card, you may instead reveal this from your hand. If you do, instead, gain a cheaper card that isn’t a Single.

Repair's reaction effect allows you to gain nothing when you would gain a card. Say you're gaining an Estate from an opponent's Ambassador, for instance. You can reveal a Repair and choose to gain a Curse. Then you can reveal Repair again and gain nothing. I assume this is intended. If not, ignore the following suggestion.

I think it's cute that revealing the card twice allows you to pull off this trick, but I also think it's inelegant. Inelegant trumps cute in my book. I suggest changing the effect to "When you would gain a card, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, instead, you may gain a cheaper card that isn’t a Single." That way it only takes one reveal to gain nothing.

Either way, you should remove that first "instead" from the reaction effect.
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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #55 on: February 01, 2014, 12:37:34 am »
0

Repair's reaction effect allows you to gain nothing when you would gain a card. Say you're gaining an Estate from an opponent's Ambassador, for instance. You can reveal a Repair and choose to gain a Curse. Then you can reveal Repair again and gain nothing. I assume this is intended. If not, ignore the following suggestion.

That's the intention and thanks for picking up the mistake. Your wording doesn't in itself suggest that when you reveal it once you can choose to gain nothing (denying the you may seems to like you would gain the card you were going to gain anyway). If I were implementing the card in isotropic or goko I'd have it so you only need to reveal once, which also stops stupid things that accomplish nothing like infinite loops with Trader (eventually you'll have to settle on a Silver, something cheaper or nothing).

EDIT: It would work if I kept the first instead. Ie "When you would gain a card, you may instead reveal this from your hand. If you do, you may gain a cheaper card that isn’t a Single." It's isn't too obvious what "cheaper" refers to though. I'll go with cute for now.

EDIT 2: When it comes to online, there'd be a few other things I'd do. After picking the card for rear admiral, I'd give you "top deck" and "bottom deck" options for simplicity. I'm yet to see how Stash works in a Goko game. For Bargain I'd probably just show the cards in the supply, and have a symbol on cards that you can also gain from the trash. The mats are fairly similar to existing mats. Recruiter cards would appear with a red outline in or near your hand in normal circumstances.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2014, 01:05:22 am by NoMoreFun »
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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #56 on: February 01, 2014, 12:41:31 am »
+1

Repair's reaction effect allows you to gain nothing when you would gain a card. Say you're gaining an Estate from an opponent's Ambassador, for instance. You can reveal a Repair and choose to gain a Curse. Then you can reveal Repair again and gain nothing. I assume this is intended. If not, ignore the following suggestion.

That's the intention and thanks for picking up the mistake. Your wording doesn't in itself suggest that when you reveal it once you can choose to gain nothing (denying the you may seems to like you would gain the card you were going to gain anyway). If I were implementing the card in isotropic or goko I'd have it so you only need to reveal once, which also stops stupid things that accomplish nothing like infinite loops with Trader (eventually you'll have to settle on a Silver, something cheaper or nothing).

Yeah, looking at my wording again, I think you're right. Although by strict Dominion rules, I think it works the way I want, it's not intuitive at all. Perhaps specifying explicitly that you can gain nothing? Well, whatever. Your wording is fine, really. Maybe it would be cool to have a Reaction card that can be revealed multiple times in a meaningful way.
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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #57 on: February 01, 2014, 12:49:10 am »
0

Yeah, looking at my wording again, I think you're right. Although by strict Dominion rules, I think it works the way I want, it's not intuitive at all. Perhaps specifying explicitly that you can gain nothing? Well, whatever. Your wording is fine, really. Maybe it would be cool to have a Reaction card that can be revealed multiple times in a meaningful way.

I love things like drawing a Beggar with Secret Chamber, discarding it to gain 2 Silvers, trashing one of them with Watchtower, then discarding a Market Square to gain a Gold, then top decking the Gold with Watchtower. This reaction, as discussed in other threads, allows you to do something like that to empty a pile with the right cards on the board, but it requires specific cards
(Squire, Watchtower, Repair and any attack), which is rarer than the Masquerade pin for a very benign effect (unless you also have Goons, Cache and Trader, and even then that doesn't do anything mean like lock someone out of the game).
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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #58 on: February 02, 2014, 03:01:04 am »
0

Whittler is now $5, and is a "you may" since while it can be good situationally it's often worse than Throne Room or even Necropolis.

I'm worried about +Buy. The set has a lot of gainers (Prospector, Philanthropist, Opportunist, Conqueror, Pariah) and remodels (Bargain, Repair, Cargo, Whittler), and "Package" is like virtual +buys, but there's only 2 among the 24 non "single" cards and one among the single cards. None of the other cards are well suited to +buys except Town Crier, which I would rather keep as a fairly simple terminal gold (a terminal triggering a wash effect is a slight penalty).

I'm also wondering if there's a strong enough theme. There's a lot of interactivity, with only Amigos, Tavern, Labyrinth, Serf, Cargo, Package, Recruiter and Whittler having no interactivity. I could add even more (eg a when gain event, or change serf's VP clause) but 27 cards out of 35 are interactive, and the events emphasise that idea as well. Is that enough of a theme?

I do want this to be a worthwhile expansion and not just a bunch of cards.
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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #59 on: February 02, 2014, 12:41:39 pm »
0

Sigil
Treasure/Victory/Trinket - $0*
Worth $1, +$2 for each empty supply pile

Wait, why is this a Victory card? Sorry if this was asked before.

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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #60 on: February 02, 2014, 12:46:31 pm »
0

I think Donald X. aimed for 2-3 +buy cards in big expansions.  (I don't know where I originally saw that number but somewhere he had listed off how many of each type he aims for in his sets and I have copied those numbers and been using them for myself.)  The gainers should make up for being on the low end of +buy.
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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #61 on: February 02, 2014, 01:17:41 pm »
0

Sigil
Treasure/Victory/Trinket - $0*
Worth $1, +$2 for each empty supply pile

Wait, why is this a Victory card? Sorry if this was asked before.

Because it's a typo :p
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Re: NoMoreFun's Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #62 on: February 05, 2014, 06:43:39 am »
0

Updates:


  • Serf has been replaced with Plantation, a Lab instead of a Peddler. It also has an interactive VP condition so it isn't too strong for $4 (0VP is inelegant).
  • Repair only lets you gain a card costing up to $3 more. $5 more wouldn't be broken but I'd prefer the card to fit in with the other Remodel variants. It still has the thematic Ruined Village/Village interaction.
  • Labyrinth has a when gain Event. I wanted more cards to deal with events. Labyrinth's when gain is a Nerf as it may be too good for $4, or easily one of the best $4 cards. I want there to be a card that triggers Events semi regularly, and I think adding something to Tavern may do that. 
  • Speaking of Events, I have decided to give Town Crier a +buy, which means that it can compare reasonably favourably to other cards whatever event gets drawn. For example, +$3, +1 card, each other player draws a card only compares well with council room with a +buy. +$3, +buy, everyone gets Torturer'd is a definite improvement on Horse Traders, or the deliberately chosen option of Count. I was short a +buy in the set anyway.
  • I haven't changed Oppressor, but I'm not sure it's gelling as a card. Patrol makes a "when gain Militia" workable. Escape Artist is a way of making the "+2 cards, discard for actions" card work. Oppressor's goal is to speed you up while slowing other players down, and there's a bit of symmetry with the bottom decking, but it's hard to make it elegant.
  • Speaking of symmetry, that's almost definitely the theme of this expansion, given how many cards have symmetrical things happen. With all the symmetrical things it's up to you to get the advantage. Scribe is this in its purest form, and Pariah is the thematic curser. Trinkets appear to contradict this, but it's a way of emphasing making things happen to everyone that benefit you more than others because of your style.
  • I want to give Conflict negative VP (-1VP for every attack in your deck) and/or a Curse type so it can be a Hot Potato. It's very problematic in games with Familiar, so I might specify "Attack costing up to $5".
  • Archer now costs $6, since it's a very good attack early game and even without the Attack may be on the strong end of $5.
  • Revolutionary now gives you $1, and every player can pick cards from your hand.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2014, 06:52:25 am by NoMoreFun »
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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #63 on: February 14, 2014, 07:13:19 am »
0

I was worried Pariah was a little weak (if everyone takes the gain it's worse than sea hag, a $4 card), so I added an "anywhere in your deck" to both the card you gain and the curse others gain. This means there's 2 anywhere in your deck cards, and I like to have 3 of each mechanic. I was considering making one of Tavern's cards "anywhere in your deck", but as a village, it will probably take too long to resolve.

Labyrinth has lost the when gain event, as it's probably fine compared to other early game trashers like Steward and Remake, given its risk late game. Instead Rear Admiral, which skirts the 4/5 boundary (it's a better Courtyard, primarily because in engines you have much more control with a little attack thrown in) has it. The name is a relic of when it was bottom decking and its "Ghost Ship" attack; should it be changed?

Retreat is no longer a Duration because in the 2nd turn it's out it still awkwardly adds cards to the mat, which are stuck there until the next time you play a Retreat. I think it's also fine at $5.

Fool can no longer block Provinces since it can create a game state where nobody wants to be the one to unblock the fool pile, and the game will slowly march towards a 3 pile end in kingdoms without +buy.

Seriously desperate for any kind of feedback.
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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #64 on: February 14, 2014, 11:49:15 am »
+2

Seriously desperate for any kind of feedback.

I'm going to try to critique the set today, but I might not be able to finish depending on my work.

I think the set is daunting to critique because there's just so much stuff here. Thanks to the Singles, Events, and Trinkets, there are some 52 unique cards in the set. Yeowch! Also, since the Single and Event mechanics are fairly exotic, it's tough to give feedback without playtesting them first. A lot of guesswork.

Probably the best thing you can do to boost feedback is to mock up all the cards and put them in the OP. I can't speak for everyone, but I know that I'm guilty of thinking a card is more interesting when it looks like a real card. I wish it weren't the case, but I think it is.
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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #65 on: February 14, 2014, 12:12:19 pm »
+1

Bargain
Reaction - $2
When you would gain a card, you may trash this from your hand. If you do, instead, gain a card costing up to $2 more than it from the supply or the trash, putting it into your hand.

(Note: The gaining from the trash is there so if someone uses a junker on you, you can reveal the bargain, trash it, gain it back, and put it in your hand. The Name comes from a somewhat similar pure reaction card developed by GeoLib which was the inspiration for this card – I think it’s different enough but I couldn't think of a more suitable name for this card)

I don't generally like this kind of Reaction that gains a card costing more than the one you would have gained. It's cool when you're being junked, but it's really kludgy when you're trying to use it as a pseudo-Treasure. This Bargain gets a pass because you trash it, limiting the number of times you'd use it for wonky buys. That being said, I think I'd prefer it to have an Action effect (or something) rather than as a pure Reaction. A pure Reaction card would be neat to see, but I'm not sure this is that card.

There's a fine line between a cool, subtle effect and a wonky one. Where that line is varies from person to person. For me, the thing where you can react to gaining a Curse by trashing a Bargain and then gain that same Bargain back is a bit wonky. I'd at least try a version that can't gain from the trash.

EDIT: Let me be more clear here. Wonky combos are fine if they come up once in a while. If they come up a lot—e.g. every time there's a junker on the board—and they're part of the card's business-as-usual functionality, I think that's suboptimal.

Prospector
Action - $2
Gain a Treasure costing up to $6, putting it in your hand. Each other player gains a copy of that Treasure, putting it on top of his deck.

I think I'd prefer to see a more expensive version of this that didn't topdeck the other players' gained cards. This version might be fine, though. Also, I really think this should be an Attack card. It definitely has the potential to sometimes hurt (like Jester), and there are no rules issues with it being an Attack (unlike Masquerade).

OK, that's the non-Single, $2 cards. It's a start. I'll critique the Singles individually after the normal Kingdom cards. However, I strongly urge you to not make the Singles take up Kingdom card slots. With even one or two on the board, it really cuts into your purchasing options, at least once the Singles that can actually be gained are gone from the Supply. I'd much rather see a rule like that for Colonies and Shelters where you include one—or maybe two—Singles in the game in addition to the 10 Kingdom cards.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2014, 03:08:39 pm by LastFootnote »
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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #66 on: February 14, 2014, 03:03:53 pm »
+1

Amigos
Action/Duration - $3
+$1
At the start of your next turn, +1 Action
---
When you discard this from play, draw an extra card at the end of your clean up phase.

Ah, the pseudo 3-turn Duration. I think it might need +$2 instead of +$1 to be worth going for, but I guess playtesting will tell.

Opportunist
Reaction - $3
When any player gains a Treasure card, you may reveal and discard this. If you do, resolve an Event from the Event deck.
---
When you reveal this, gain a card costing up to $3.

"When any player gains a Treasure card" isn't a great trigger. It's not a momentous event like when another player gains a Province (ŕ la Fool's Gold). I think it's nice to encourage other players to gain Actions instead of Treasure, but of course this triggers on your Treasure gains too, encouraging you to go for Treasure so that this Reaction won't be dead. The fact that the gained card costs up to $3 means that you'll often be gaining Silver with it, further pushing you toward a money deck. Not necessarily a big deal, but worth thinking about.

Scribe
Action - $3
+$2
Place the top card of the event deck face down on your Scribe Mat
---
At the start of your turn, you may reveal and resolve an Event from your Scribe Mat.

I haven't looked at the Events in quite a while, but I assume they still mostly hit all players equally. That being the case, I might cost this at $2 instead of $3. It's a more interesting/powerful Duchess!

Tavern
Action - $3
+2 Actions
+2 Cards
Put a card from your hand on top of your deck. Put a card from your hand on the bottom of your deck.
---
When you gain a Province, discard all Taverns from play. If you discarded any, resolve the top Event of the Event deck.

I think the top is probably not overpowered, but beware non-terminal cards that return cards to the top of your deck. The first card I ever playtested was such a card and it was awful. The main issue is that you play one, draw 2 cards, put one back on top, then play another, draw that card you put back plus another one, etc. It gets tedious fast. It also has the potential for quite a lot of AP; much more so than if you were simply discarding cards.

As for the bottom part, is there a reason the Taverns get discarded? Again I don't remember the Events, but it's probably not so bad if an Event resolves per Province gained.
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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #67 on: February 14, 2014, 04:34:00 pm »
+1

Barge
Action - $4
Now and at the start of your next turn; +2 buys, draw until you have 5 cards in hand
Put your deck in your discard pile
---
While this is in play, when you gain a card, you may trash a card from your hand.

+1 Buy is probably sufficient. Also, is there a reason for the "put your deck into your discard pile" clause here? It's not 100% clear whether you do that both turns, although I'm guessing you only do it the turn you play it. Seems like you could leave it out.

Beauty
Action/Attack - $4
+2 Actions
Each player (including you) discards any number of cards from his hand until he can reveal a hand of only Actions, Reactions and Treasures.
Draw until you have 4 cards in hand.
---
When you reveal this, +1 card.

I think the "when you reveal this" mechanic is a bit wonky. Donald tried it on Fortress and decided to just do when-trashed instead.

I'm not sure about the wording on the top half. I think the other player probably has to reveal his hand first and then discard cards one at a time until the condition is met. Even so, it might be a tough sell. I used to have this card:

Convocation
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Reveal the top 3 cards of your deck. Discard revealed cards one at a time until no two of them share a type. Put the rest into your hand.

Most playtesters that saw this for the first time said, "So…what does this do?" I had to change it so that it just draws you an Action, a Treasure, and a Victory card from the revealed 3 cards. What I'm trying to say is that you may want to just have each player reveal his hand and discard all the Victory and Curse cards in it.

Labyrinth
Action - $4
Do all three of the following in any order:
Draw until you have 5 cards in hand
Discard a card
Trash down to 3 cards in hand

As I said before, I'm a fan of this one. Three basic elements, but they interact in interesting ways and you can pick the order depending on the situation.

Oppressor
Action/Attack - $4
+1 Action
Look at the top 5 cards of your deck. Put any number on the bottom and discard the rest. 
Each other player reveals the bottom card of his deck and gains a Cell from the Cell pile if it’s any other card, putting it on the bottom of his deck.

The top is probably going to generate some AP for advanced players. Say you have a few (or zero) cards left in your deck. Putting up to 5 cards in a certain order based on what you have in your hand may take quite a while. Probably it'll usually be fewer cards. If it's too long, you could always change it to 4 cards, like most other non-terminal Scout cards.

Philanthropist
Action - $4
+1 Card
+1 Action
Choose one of the following for everyone to Gain. You put the gained card in the location in brackets;
A Copper (in hand), A Silver (on top of your deck), A Gold (on the bottom of your deck)

Like Prospector, this should be an Attack. I would say that the set doesn't need both Prospector and Philanthropist. I like Prospector better.

Plantation
Action/Victory - $4
Worth 1VP if you have the fewest Plantations of any player.
---
+1 Card
+1 Action
Reveal cards from the top of your deck until you reveal a victory card. Put it in your hand and discard the rest.

Are you supposed to get the 1 VP on a tie? If not, it should say, "if you have fewer plantations than any other player." Seems like a fine card in general, although it might be better with just a flat 1 VP.


Rear Admiral
Action/Attack - $4
+3 Cards
Each player with 5 or more cards in hand puts a card from his hand anywhere in his deck.
---
When you gain this, resolve the top event from the event deck.

Seems OK, although the "anywhere in deck" might create a bit too much AP. Maybe not. I had a card like that once, but I've since scrapped it. I didn't scrap it because of AP, though, so perhaps it's not an issue.


Repair
Action/Reaction - $4
Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card that shares a type costing up to $3 more, putting it on top of your deck.
---
When you would gain a card, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, instead, gain a cheaper card that isn’t a Single.

I think I've talked about this one already. I like it better at "$3 more" than "$5 more", so I'm glad you made that change. The Reaction is fine. I've come around on it. I don't like the infinite loop it makes with Trader, but it's no worse than revealing Trader repeatedly, I guess. Yeah, overall I think I like the card.


Revolutionary
Action/Attack - $4
+1 Action
+$1
Reveal your hand. Each player may choose any number of cards from it. Discard the chosen cards.
Draw until you have 6 cards in hand.

Seems harsh. Playtesting will tell if it's workable, but I wouldn't be surprised if most players got pretty sick of discarding their good cards. Like, the card looks weak. Whether or not it is weak, people may not buy it for that reason.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2014, 04:35:27 pm by LastFootnote »
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #68 on: February 14, 2014, 05:57:19 pm »
0

As for the bottom part, is there a reason the Taverns get discarded? Again I don't remember the Events, but it's probably not so bad if an Event resolves per Province gained.

I gave it that wording so that it's not an event per Tavern per Province.


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+1 Buy is probably sufficient [for Barge]. Also, is there a reason for the "put your deck into your discard pile" clause here? It's not 100% clear whether you do that both turns, although I'm guessing you only do it the turn you play it. Seems like you could leave it out.


It's a nerf - a Duration that always misses the reshuffle.

Quote
I haven't looked at the Events in quite a while, but I assume they still mostly hit all players equally. That being the case, I might cost this at $2 instead of $3. It's a more interesting/powerful Duchess!

I think that in general, a "wash" effect after a Terminal is worse than the Terminal on its own, due to the opportunity cost of playing a Terminal. This makes Duchess "worse" than a Terminal Silver. I'm not really comfortable with a Terminal Silver or something strictly better at $2. The events hit everyone equally, but you are in control of when they occur, if at all. So for example, one of the events is drawing a card - if it comes down to the last turn and you really need that Province before the other player gets it, it can come in handy. One of the events is a Torturer effect - if you've got 2 dead cards in hand late game it's a good time to pull it off. I think it's a pretty good $3, but playtesting will tell.

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I think I'd prefer to see a more expensive version of [Prospector] that didn't topdeck the other players' gained cards. This version might be fine, though. Also, I really think this should be an Attack card. It definitely has the potential to sometimes hurt (like Jester), and there are no rules issues with it being an Attack (unlike Masquerade).

There are no issues with playing out the rules but I don't like the interactions with Moat and Lighthouse. I like how top decking makes the Copper hit harder, but the other options worse. I think the non topdeck version will have to be a $5 as a terminal gold with a "wash" effect that doesn't seem to benefit other players all that much more than you, and it's kind of more boring that way.

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[Rear Admiral] Seems OK, although the "anywhere in deck" might create a bit too much AP. Maybe not. I had a card like that once, but I've since scrapped it. I didn't scrap it because of AP, though, so perhaps it's not an issue.

I think it will be fairly straightforward after your first game or two with it. If I was implementing this in isotropic I'd have "top deck", "bottom deck" or "pick the number of cards ahead of it in your deck".

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I'm not sure about the wording on the top half [of Beauty]. I think the other player probably has to reveal his hand first and then discard cards one at a time until the condition is met. Even so, it might be a tough sell. I used to have this card

It's a sort of draw to X Cellar for you, and I wanted the effect to be mirrored. If the hand was revealed I'd have a "that is neither Action nor Treasure", but don't want the 2 "when reveal" pure reactions to nombo. I like it this way, and I can imagine it having the thematic feel of going around the corner and adjusting your clothes when you see a "beauty".

Thank you so much for all the feedback so far.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2014, 06:06:04 pm by NoMoreFun »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #69 on: February 14, 2014, 06:02:42 pm »
+1

There are no issues with playing out the rules but I don't like the interactions with Moat and Lighthouse. I like how top decking makes the Copper hit harder, but the other options worse. I think the non topdeck version will have to be a $5 as a terminal gold with a "wash" effect that doesn't seem to benefit other players all that much more than you, and it's kind of more boring that way.

The topdecking makes it so if enough of these are played, a player may be stuck with a hand of 5 Coppers every single turn. Of course, you'd need to be trashing the Coppers you gain in order to not have your deck choke.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #70 on: February 14, 2014, 06:09:35 pm »
0

There are no issues with playing out the rules but I don't like the interactions with Moat and Lighthouse. I like how top decking makes the Copper hit harder, but the other options worse. I think the non topdeck version will have to be a $5 as a terminal gold with a "wash" effect that doesn't seem to benefit other players all that much more than you, and it's kind of more boring that way.

The topdecking makes it so if enough of these are played, a player may be stuck with a hand of 5 Coppers every single turn. Of course, you'd need to be trashing the Coppers you gain in order to not have your deck choke.

I think the self junking makes it ok for the same reason as Bureaucreat. At any rate a hand of 5 coppers isn't all that bad, albeit boring (for the same reason as that awful Midas card I came up with), but it's about as difficult as 5 Bureaucrats to get going and they can buy Duchies every turn, so with enough of a lead they have a better chance of winning the slouch towards the finish.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #71 on: February 14, 2014, 06:15:09 pm »
0

This Bargain gets a pass because you trash it, limiting the number of times you'd use it for wonky buys. That being said, I think I'd prefer it to have an Action effect (or something) rather than as a pure Reaction. A pure Reaction card would be neat to see, but I'm not sure this is that card.

There's a fine line between a cool, subtle effect and a wonky one. Where that line is varies from person to person. For me, the thing where you can react to gaining a Curse by trashing a Bargain and then gain that same Bargain back is a bit wonky. I'd at least try a version that can't gain from the trash.

My only concern is that you'll run out the pile with a junker on board, although it means that instead of the curse pile emptying, the Bargain pile empties instead (in 2 player; the pile would disappear in a flash in a 4 player game with junkers unless there's a good $2 that you'd rather have than another bargain).

I could give it a "top" effect, especially one that puts good cards in the trash, but in order for the card to function it has to cost either $1 or $2. At $2 being a oneshot silver is already quite good.
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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #72 on: February 14, 2014, 10:03:45 pm »
+1

I'd lie if i said i have the energy to do more than just some quick remarks, so please don't take it badly if i say something stupid.

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Ambush
Single - $2
When you would gain this, instead put it anywhere inside a supply pile, and take the Ambush token.
---
When this card appears on top of a Supply pile, the current player trashes a card costing at least $3 that he has in play. The player with the ambush token pays it to gain a card from the trash, putting it on top of his deck. Return this to the Supply

Um... "Return this to the supply" means that it will still be on top of a supply pile, doesn't it? Apart from that i don't really get what this is about, and it feels as if putting it anywhere in a supply makes it more complicated than necessary. Probably i want this to block a pile from being bought, but why wouldn't i just put a token on the pile, then? It's not like putting it somewhere in the pile would surprise anyone (you can look through it) - if anything, it makes the card more political ("I put it third so Barbara can buy a Lighthouse, but Steven can't, Harr Harr!"). Not the one i like most.


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Fool
Action/Single - $2
+2 Cards
+2 Actions
Put this card on top of any non-empty supply pile of cards costing $6 or less.

Hm, Fool still has the blocking mechanism but has become a usefool card itself. I like how you can use it to force opponents into buying a card they don't want without making it seem unfair (as the card is not that bad itself). As a second card with a pile-blocking mechanic, i find this much simpler and clean than Ambush.


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Bargain
Reaction - $2
When you would gain a card, you may trash this from your hand. If you do, instead, gain a card costing up to $2 more than it from the supply or the trash, putting it into your hand.

Hmm... It took me some time to get that the gain from the trash means you can gain itself after trashing it, so it basically moats junking attacks. The other use is to make it a one-shot Silver, which i think is not that much better than +2 cards from Moat itself. My feeling is this is worse than or about as "strong" as Moat (defending not every kind of attack). I see that you can chain them on reaction and gain a Province instead of a Curse with four of them in hand (or a Gold/Duchy with three), but as they really are one-shots if you did that and dead Moats until that i'm pretty sure such a strategy wouldn't really work...
Edit: It's funny how LastFootnote seems to have the opposite opinion about this card's power, but i'm too tired to think about it now... Good night...


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Prospector
Action - $2
Gain a Treasure costing up to $6, putting it in your hand. Each other player gains a copy of that Treasure, putting it on top of his deck.

Why are your 2$s so weak? Compare this to Beggar: It also costs 2$ and gives +3$, but Beggar not only has a downside you can use to your advantage (greening, Gardens) but also is a reaction. Comparing the bonus you get to the bonus for your opponents, this card takes up a spot in your hand and gives +3$ (max) - while, during their second-next turn, your opponents will have exactly the same situation, just without spending a buy or an action on it. In the endgame this might make the difference, but almost certainly not enough to make a strategy of it.


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Conflict
Reaction/Single - $3
When another player plays an Attack card, you may reveal this. If you do, that player gains this card.
---
When you reveal or buy this, gain an Attack card costing up to $5.

Well, of course this is irrelevant if there are no attacks. Given this is a single that doesn't really matter though, i guess. I'm not sure i like the "reveal" part here - it might be intended to be a defense aganst Saboteur, Knights (which can trash the only Conflict for good) and some others, but it still works nicely to be spammed with Hunting Party or Managerie. Hmm... All those Minions... I think if there are cards supporting the spamming, the fact that there's only one of them will make the game really frustrating and unfair.


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Fete
Single - $3
When you would gain this, instead, look at the top 2 cards of the Fete deck, put one on the bottom of your deck, and put the other back on the bottom of the Fete deck. Put a card costing $6 or less from any supply pile on top of the Fete deck.
---
Setup: Make a Fete deck out of one copy of every Kingdom supply pile in the current game.

You must get the impression i hate all your singles :(
Here i don't like the first player advantage. The first player to buy one can hope to gain a nice card (whatever nice kingdom cards there are) and put a Curse on top, effectively halving the chances of a good bargain for every player following.


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Amigos
Action/Duration - $3
+$1
At the start of your next turn, +1 Action
---
When you discard this from play, draw  an extra card at the end of your clean up phase.

I still like this idea, and i still think that giving the +1 action on the turn it is played not only boosts it by a tiny bit (as you can chain them) but also fits the  fact that usually durations are useless the turn they are played. Also i'd try to cost this at 2$.


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Opportunist
Reaction - $3
When any player gains a Treasure card, you may reveal and discard this. If you do, resolve an Event from the Event deck.
---
When you reveal this, gain a card costing up to $3. 

The second reaction isn't as easy to spam as Conflict, and not worse than Tunnel. I see it can work as a defense, and interestingly to discard attacks as well as to attacks that steal from you. It's weird that the Opportunist revealed by another players Spy can trigger another Oppurtunist if it gains a Silver, with your Opportunist in hand reacting to that other Oppurtunist gaining a Silver, too... In general, i think "gain a Treasure" isn't a big enough pause in the game to have a reaction for, especially as it can grow pretty complicated with the events involved.
Sorry i'm so negative all the time here :(


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Scribe
Action - $3
+$2
Place the top card of the event deck face down on your Scribe Mat
---
At the start of your turn, you may reveal and resolve an Event from your Scribe Mat.

I must admit i'm not a huge fan of the events when reading them on the screen, but i don't know how they'd play. Thinking about it, it's probably crazy, but fun. I wouldn't mind having such a mechanic on that new Promo...
Anyhow, i'm not sure the benefit of the card is good enough, especially as you don't know what event you'll cause, yourself. If you did add that (or it was intended that way all along), i think the card would work nicely. Otherwise, i'd rather have Chancellor.


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Tavern
Action - $3
+2 Actions
+2 Cards
Put a card from your hand on top of your deck. Put a card from your hand on the bottom of your deck.
---
When you gain a Province, discard all Taverns from play. If you discarded any, resolve the top Event of the Event deck.

It's +Cards first, isn't it? I still don't get why you would want to trigger events - they can harm you and help you both. I'm not even sure whether the last part is a penalty or a benefit. As this is probably a bit strong as a Village variant, i assume it was intended as a penalty. At least i know i'd hate to let every player draw a card at the end of my buy phase (where i can't use it)...


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Tower
Single - $4
When you would gain this, instead, move a tower token to any supply pile.
---
Setup: Place a tower token on each of the Estate, Duchy and Province supply piles. Cards are worth an extra 1VP for every tower token on its supply pile.

Hmm... I can imagine situations where the game (especially a 2-player game) would reach a stalemate where nobody wants to end the game, as that would make the other player's card of choice worth points, and instead the Tower token gets shoved back and forth... Also it's a bit swingy if you are lucky enough to put it on "your" card the last turn. It somehow makes the game less strategical and more luck depandant for that reason, i think.


Quote
Barge
Action - $4
Now and at the start of your next turn; +2 buys, draw until you have 5 cards in hand
Put your deck in your discard pile
---
While this is in play, when you gain a card, you may trash a card from your hand.

More simple, that's nice. I like how the "in play" and the on play synergize. I'm not sure about the (forced) Chancellor and whether it keeps the card from being too weak, though. Like the idea, though.


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Beauty
Action/Attack - $4
+2 Actions
Each player (including you) discards any number of cards from his hand until he can reveal a hand of only Actions, Reactions and Treasures.
Draw until you have 4 cards in hand.
---
When you reveal this, +1 card.

I don't know about the "reaction". It only matters for Tunnel and some of your own, doesn't it? Truth be told, it feels a bit specific. Also it very obviously defends against itself, and while i'm not sure i like that in general, it's nice that there's no first-player advantage here. Like Conflict, this is crazy with Hunting Party or Menagerie...


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Labyrinth
Action - $4
Do all three of the following in any order:
Draw until you have 5 cards in hand
Discard a card
Trash down to 3 cards in hand

Interesting. I thought about a card where you can order choices too, but it didn't work. I like yours better. Also like the name. Nice.


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Oppressor
Action/Attack - $4
+1 Action
Look at the top 5 cards of your deck. Put any number on the bottom and discard the rest. 
Each other player reveals the bottom card of his deck and gains a Cell from the Cell pile if it’s any other card, putting it on the bottom of his deck.

It's a bit like a fixed Scout, isn't it? A bit complex with the Cells, the bottom-decking, the ordering of cards down there... Not that bad.


Quote
Philanthropist
Action - $4
+1 Card
+1 Action
Choose one of the following for everyone to Gain. You put the gained card in the location in brackets;
A Copper (in hand), A Silver (on top of your deck), A Gold (on the bottom of your deck)

Of course the Copper gain qualifies as an attack, and yes, i know, the others don't. If i'm not mistaken i allready proposed a way to solve this (without attack type): "Choose one: Gain a Copper in hand; Gain a Silver, putting it on top of your deck; Gain a Gold, putting it on the bottom of your deck; Each other player may reveal a Reaction card from his hand. If he doesn't, he gains a copy of the card you gained."
Obviously that's not a beautiful wording, but still i'd prefer it to a junker that's not an attack. Apart from that the card is fine, though not overly strong.


Quote
Plantation
Action/Victory - $4
Worth 1VP if you have the fewest Plantations of any player.
---
+1 Card
+1 Action
Reveal cards from the top of your deck until you reveal a victory card. Put it in your hand and discard the rest.

This is... interesting. I'm not sure how it plays, but it's definitely something new. I do remember playtesting a Victory card that wanted you to not gain too many of them, but this is different.
Also combos with Scout ;)
  

Quote
Rear Admiral
Action/Attack - $4
+3 Cards
Each player with 5 or more cards in hand puts a card from his hand anywhere in his deck.
---
When you gain this, resolve the top event from the event deck.

I see. The event is used as a way to keep this from being "strictly better" than Smithy (which isn't that far stretched thinking about how many of them are worse when resolved at the end of your buy phase). The attack might be beneficial to other players sometimes, but a single card doesn't really help setting up something enough to make giving a good one out of hand worthwile, usually. Then again this can only hit each player once a turn, and there is a restriction... I'm not really sure, but it might be okay for 4$.


Quote
Repair
Action/Reaction - $4
Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card that shares a type costing up to $3 more, putting it on top of your deck.
---
When you would gain a card, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, instead, gain a cheaper card that isn’t a Single.

Yay, a terminal Rebuild. On second look, i like how it is worse when used for victory cards and how it is worse than Mine or Taxman for Treasures. But then again, it is more flexible and also defends against junkers. Two of these can even work as a Remodel. I feel the reaction is a bit too much, the card is pretty good for 4$ even without that.


Quote
Revolutionary
Action/Attack - $4
+1 Action
+$1
Reveal your hand. Each player may choose any number of cards from it. Discard the chosen cards.
Draw until you have 6 cards in hand.

Interesting. Reminds me a bit of Advisor, only that this is either worse or better, or probably both. Don't know if i'd like playing with it, but i'd definitely try it out.


Quote
Enchanter
Single - $5
When you would gain this, instead, move the hex token to any Action supply pile.
---
When a player discards a copy of the card with the hex token from play, if that player has no actions remaining, each other player gains a Curse. Place the Hex token on the Enchanter supply pile at the start of the game and when it’s on an empty pile.

"Starting my third turn, i play Smithy. Now i play six Coppers, buying Enchanter and placing the hex token on Copper. Six Curses for each of you guys."
Even if you forbid Treasures, this is still mostly a swingier, stranger, stronger Ill-Gotten Gains. Swingy because you might have a terminal in hand to play after all those Hamlets you had (so you can give out a Curse per Hamlet). Strange because the player buying it may put the token on a card that the player after him will play, too - just without spending 5$. Stronger because you don't have to gain that awful "half-Silver" IGG is.


Quote
Patrol
Single - $5
When you would gain this, instead, gain a cheaper card, and each other player reveals the top card of his deck, gaining a Cell from the Cell pile if it’s any other card. Each player puts any cards gained this way on top of his deck. 

Fine. Like Border Village is overpaying to 6$ to gain an additional Village, this is overpaying to 5$ to have an attack. Why not, it's simple and i like it.


Quote
Package
Single - $5
When you would gain this, instead, gain 3 differently named cards that are neither Singles nor Victory Cards with a total cost of up to $7.

Like the name. Not sure whether it's good enough most of the time - probably if you want to load up on cheap cards like Lighthouse, Fishing Village, Menagerie etc... Still feel that "differently named" is very restrictive, especially as you can't gain more than two 3$s, anyhow. Unless of course you have cost reduction, in which case this is absolutely able to go crazy...


Quote
Pioneer
Single - $5
Gain 2 cheaper Action cards, placing them on the Pioneer mat.
---
During your turn you may play a card from the Pioneer mat instead of from your hand. If you do, trash it.

Not the worst single. I'm not really a fan, but i see it has some appeal. Heck, it's easy in a way, so i guess i like it after all.


Quote
Rival Markets
Action/Duration/Single - $5*
+$2
+2 Actions
+2 Cards
+2 Buys
At the start of your next turn, return this to its own pile.
---
While this card is in play, it is also in the Supply, and costs $4.

He he, i see what you did there. I like the idea of a card players can buy from other players, but i'm afraid this will likely just be passed around in turn order. Hmm... Is there any way to avoid me gaining my own Rival Market with Workshop? It would be nasty if a player could make sure it's his forever.


Quote
Cargo
Treasure - $5
Worth $1
When you play this, trash a card you have in play. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.

Fine. Maybe the trashing could be optional.


Quote
Conqueror
Action - $5
Gain 2 Cards with a total cost of up to $7.
Each player (including you) looks through his discard pile and either trashes a card from it or puts a card from it on top of his deck.

I get it. This can be "gain a Gold, each other player may [...]". A bit more flexible, but i think it's okay. what i don't like is that it allows gaining Provinces with cost reduction, of course, and the name fits much more for an attack, i think. That aside i guess it's okay.


Quote
Escape Artist
Action - $5
+2 Cards
Each player may reveal a Cell from his hand. If he doesn’t, he gains a Cell from the Cell pile, putting it in his hand.
You may play a Cell from your hand.

Not strictly better than Lab, but very close. Unless you have absolutely no junk in hand (or don't have another action you want to play, which isn't that unlikely), it is. Guess i'd have to playtest it to know for sure, though.


Quote
Pariah
Action - $5
Gain a card costing up to $6, putting it anywhere in your deck. Each other player may gain a Curse, putting it anywhere in his deck. If he did, he also gains a copy of the card you gained.

I don't know. Putting a Gold on top of my deck is great, and even if an opponent may gain the same card (for gaining a Curse and putting it in his deck, too), that doesn't really seem like a relevant penalty most of the time (Watchtower aside). Then again it's probably fine from the power level. Funny how this is worse when you gain a Duchy - your opponent may be able to trash the Curse he draws later, while still gaining a Duchy and putting the same number of bad cards in his deck as you. Probably fine as far as i can see.


Quote
Retreat
Action - $5
+1 Buy
Trash a card form your hand. Place a number of cards equal to its cost in coins from the top to your deck face down on the Retreat mat.
---
While this is in play, when you gain a card, set it aside on the Retreat mat. You may look at the cards on the retreat mat at any time. Put all cards on the Retreat mat in your hand at the start of your turn.

Not sure it needs the "while in play". That aside it's fine, though a bit similar to Pioneer.


Quote
Town Crier
Action - $5
+$3
+1 Buy
Resolve the top Event from the Event deck

Fine.


Quote
Whittler:
Action - $5
You may do this up to three times:
Reveal an action card from your hand. Play it, then trash it. Gain a card costing less than the trashed card, putting it in your hand.

Not sure about the power level. At first glance, the cost decreases, and so this should be worse than King's Court. But then again you might be able to combine cards that synergize (Smithy/Village from the top of my head) and can play good cards you draw for the first two. Then again you have to trash the cards you play, so i assume it's okay at 5$.


Quote
Archer
Action/Attack - $6
Each player reveals cards from his deck until revealing one costing $3 or more. He either discards it or puts it back (you choose), then discards the other revealed cards.
+3 Cards

Fine. Not sure about the power, but probably it's stronger than it seems.


Quote
Baroness
Victory/Single - $0*
Worth 2VP for each Estate left in the supply.
---
This card costs $1 for each Estate left in the supply.

Like the name. It's interesting, i like it.

NoMoreFun

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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #73 on: February 15, 2014, 03:39:24 am »
+1

You are supposed to know what cards are on your Scribe mat. I have edited the OP.

Thanks for all the feedback. I'll respond or adapt more adequately when I get time.
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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #74 on: February 20, 2014, 04:11:46 pm »
0

Bargain's most important feature is the gain to hand. It's a "combo" card. Being a oneshot silver is the least interesting way to use it. It might be worth making it "exactly $2" to nerf it a little, but I think gaining the card to hand then immediately having to discard it nails the point about how the card could be used.

I believe that Ambush is covered by the same rule as Knights (you can see how many knights are left, but not what order they're in). It's basically an Embargo but I wanted there to be some uncertainty, and self Ambushing can be a strategy (it's basically a Scheme).

I changed Fete so that you no longer add cards to the Deck. That means it will get depleted, but that's ok. There's a bit of FTA with that card but trinkets are a nice counterbalance to FTA.

Conflict was designed to break some card design rules. It's a reaction that hurts attackers (but I think it's ok because it gets passed around and if you buy it you're vulnerable to it). It's a "dead" card that you buy to get a discount on a good card. It's a companion card to Fool and Rival Markets; Rival Markets is a card that gets passed around because it's wanted, Conflict gets passed around because it's unwanted, and Fool is a strange mix of both.

You're meant to be able to gain your own Rival Markets back with Workshop, or buy it back. You need to evaluate how badly you want the card.

With Beauty you can still discard Tunnels if they want to. The idea (which I think is thematic) is that it's up to you to prepare your hand and show it off, but there's some cards like Curses that just won't be tolerated. I wanted to make an attack/village and this attack is both very weak (but can hurt when used in tandem with junkers, or in games with a lot of discard for benefit) and unstackable.

I love the idea of Repair's reaction so if it isn't on Repair (which is now looking like a decent card all on its own, especially since Rebuild was officially declared overpowered), it will go onto another card.

If amigos was +$2 you'd compare it to other terminal silvers. Is both Caravan and Fishing Village in the same card about equivalent in power to a +buy? I want it to be Terminal on play, then a village next turn, as that's actually the concept of the card - the triple duration thing is just a way to make it interesting. The goal is to have several of these cards working together in phase. It might be ok at $2; the $3 cost is thematic.

Barge is looking weak. I might make it draw to 6, but then it's comparing well to Wharf. The compulsory chancellor (duration that misses its own reshuffle as a nerf) is a mechanic I want to explore and isn't going anywhere.

I didn't notice the "IGG" aspect of Enchanter. Perhaps I'll adjust the wording to make the check at the start of the buy phase. You can still do interesting tricks with gainers.

Pariah's gain is now normal, but the curse is still anywhere in (their) deck. Might make it a top deck for simplicity. I don't want the card to seem weak when it's done symmetrically, but a Sea Hag that genuinely slows the other player down seems strong enough to make the decision tricky.

I think I'm ok with the Highway/Conqueror combo for now, but it's worth a playtest. You can think of non attack interactions as cards you play with cantrip effects, and a cantrip trasher (that doesn't even hurt your hand)/scavenger is very, very good. Any better suggestions for the name? It's just a pun on "Divide and Conquer", and in some circumstances (eg your discard pile consists of a province) the effect is like an attack.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #75 on: February 20, 2014, 04:26:01 pm »
0

Any suggestions for names are much appreciated. Good names are things you associate with turbulent times when it seems like far too many things are going on and you're never sure what's going to happen next. Names like "Opportunist" seem right, but others like Rear Admiral are relics.
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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #76 on: February 27, 2014, 07:16:49 am »
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Patrol is back to being bottom deck, as I just remembered that being top deck messed with the opening too much and had ridiculous FTA.

Because of this, Oppressor is back to being top deck. I've decided to make it terminal, and its attack is combined with a bottom deck bureaucrat. It's meant to be an attack that very decisively slows you down, but otherwise isn't particularly harmful. Alternatively, it can be interpreted as a triple-urchin (discard one this turn, one next turn, one much later). Meanwhile, while they've been slowed down by 2 cards, you draw 2 cards.

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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #77 on: March 07, 2014, 12:31:08 pm »
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This is meant to be a general sort of ideas thread, so a few I've had

Mirror
Treasure - $4
Worth $1
---
While this is in play, when you gain a Victory card, each other player gains a Curse.

(It's a horrible treasure early game and it slows you down as much as other players unless cards like Great Hall are in the Kingdom).

Smelter
Action - $2
Reveal a card from your hand
If it's a(n):
Action: Gain a copy of it
Treasure: +$3
Victory Card: +3 Cards
Put the revealed card on top of your deck.

(Terminal silver that slows you down, inflexible Courtyard, or a gainer that either sacrifices the play  of a non terminal or makes your terminal clash problems even worse)

Warden
Action - $4
+$1
Each other player may reveal a Curse from his hand. If nobody does, each other player gains a Curse.
Each player who didn't reveal a Curse draws a card.

Contrarian
Action - $4
Draw 3 cards from the bottom of your deck
Put a card from your hand on top of your deck
---
When you gain this, reverse the turn order (eg play passes to the right if it passed to the left before).

Leveller
Action/Attack - $5
+3 Cards
Discard any number of cards from your hand. Each other player discards the same number of cards, then draws until he has 3 cards in hand.

Pyromaniac
Action - $6
Each player (including you) may put any number of cards from his hand on top of his deck.
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal one costing $3 or more. Put it back, and trash the other revealed cards.

Tracker
Action/Attack - $5
+1 Action
Each other player discards a card, then reveals the top card of his deck and puts it into his hand. +1 card for every $ of the highest cost in coins on a card revealed this way.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2014, 12:32:16 pm by NoMoreFun »
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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #78 on: March 07, 2014, 02:53:24 pm »
+1

Mirror
Treasure - $4
Worth $1
---
While this is in play, when you gain a Victory card, each other player gains a Curse.

(It's a horrible treasure early game and it slows you down as much as other players unless cards like Great Hall are in the Kingdom).

This doesn't look unbalanced, but I worry a bit about it not being fun. In general, I don't think the "hurt everyone including yourself" card concept is going to be popular. Saboteur and Sea Hag get flak for not producing resources, but even they don't hurt you too. Taxman and Followers kinda sorta hurt you, but they help you more. Anyhow, this might be worth testing. It's not nearly as bad as Leveller.


Smelter
Action - $2
Reveal a card from your hand
If it's a(n):
Action: Gain a copy of it
Treasure: +$3
Victory Card: +3 Cards
Put the revealed card on top of your deck.

(Terminal silver that slows you down, inflexible Courtyard, or a gainer that either sacrifices the play  of a non terminal or makes your terminal clash problems even worse)

Wow, you're really selling me on this card! But seriously, I think even though the card is flexible, the three options are probably too weak, even for a $2 card. I'd try a $5 version that gave +$4 and +4 Cards. Maybe beef up the Action-gaining too, but that might not be necessary. Duplicating a non-terminal by putting off playing it for a turn may be enough for that option.


Warden
Action - $4
+$1
Each other player may reveal a Curse from his hand. If nobody does, each other player gains a Curse.
Each player who didn't reveal a Curse draws a card.

Did you mean to word this such that you draw a card (because you didn't reveal a Curse)? Either way, you should clarify that.

Also, the card is…maybe political is the wrong word. It's bound to create grumbling about turn order. "Oh, the person to my right revealed a Curse? I guess that protects us all, so I can choose not to reveal and draw a card."


Contrarian
Action - $4
Draw 3 cards from the bottom of your deck
Put a card from your hand on top of your deck
---
When you gain this, reverse the turn order (eg play passes to the right if it passed to the left before).

I never thought I'd like a card that drew from the bottom of the deck, but somehow the fact that you also put a card on top of your deck piques my interest.

The bottom half is a Bad Idea. For two reasons. First, it means that you have to actually track how many turns each player has taken in case you need the tiebreaker at the end of the game. More importantly, this can potentially lock one or more players out of the game for quite a few turns while two players ping-pong the turn order between them. I don't care that it's an on-gain effect and so must eventually end (barring Graverobber, etc.). It's still really not fun to sit there as the other two players take 10 turns in a row.


Leveller
Action/Attack - $5
+3 Cards
Discard any number of cards from your hand. Each other player discards the same number of cards, then draws until he has 3 cards in hand.

Donald tested an Attack that made each other player discard down to 2 cards then draw one. It mostly just obliterates your turn. Again, it doesn't matter that you also might be hurting yourself in order to pull off this devastating attack. It's just too punishing. Also, see my comments on Mirror.


Pyromaniac
Action - $6
Each player (including you) may put any number of cards from his hand on top of his deck.
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal one costing $3 or more. Put it back, and trash the other revealed cards.

The interaction is…interesting. I wonder how often the other players will take advantage of it.

As for the Action, it seems weak for $6. It's basically an unlimited Chapel that might also trash a few more bad cards (and/or good cards costing $2). Cool with Squire, I guess. I'm just not sure it's different enough from Chapel in practice.


Tracker
Action/Attack - $5
+1 Action
Each other player discards a card, then reveals the top card of his deck and puts it into his hand. +1 card for every $ of the highest cost in coins on a card revealed this way.

Huh, seems neat. I would reword it: "Choose one of them; +1 Card per $ it costs." Maaaaaybe too powerful? I initially read it as "+$1 per $ it costs", which I like better.

EDIT: I just realized that Tracker essentially has the Leveller problem when you're already down to 3 cards in hand. Maybe not a deal breaker.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2014, 05:09:03 pm by LastFootnote »
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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #79 on: March 09, 2014, 12:53:46 am »
+1

Smelter
Action - $2
Reveal a card from your hand
If it's a(n):
Action: Gain a copy of it
Treasure: +$3
Victory Card: +3 Cards
Put the revealed card on top of your deck.

(Terminal silver that slows you down, inflexible Courtyard, or a gainer that either sacrifices the play  of a non terminal or makes your terminal clash problems even worse)

Wow, you're really selling me on this card! But seriously, I think even though the card is flexible, the three options are probably too weak, even for a $2 card. I'd try a $5 version that gave +$4 and +4 Cards. Maybe beef up the Action-gaining too, but that might not be necessary. Duplicating a non-terminal by putting off playing it for a turn may be enough for that option.
This is the only card of these that I really like, and I don't think it's weak at all. Getting a copy of any action card you have (no cost limit) seems very strong. The treasure option would be better used with other treasures than copper. Putting the victory card back on your deck doesn't seem so bad in exchange for +3 cards on a $2 cost card.
It wouldn't be much good in the early game, but it'd be much better after you've trashed your starting junk and have some worthwhile action cards to duplicate.
And of course this card would be insanely good with the hybrid victory cards (especially Nobles).
« Last Edit: March 09, 2014, 12:56:50 am by LibraryAdventurer »
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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #80 on: March 12, 2014, 07:14:51 am »
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The treasure option would be better used with other treasures than copper.

It's a herbalist without the +buy if used with a Silver, and it's all downhill from there. The main point of the card is the Action cloning, with other viable options in the meantime (given how hard it can be to line up 2 cards).

Mirror is a similar card to Monument - you can get a VP advantage playing it but your deck remains as clogged as everyone else's. I think there's some interesting strategic decisions involved beyond existing cards, but if I do include the card it will be an Action, possibly with sifting and a +buy to encourage taking it's option. Prospector/Philanthropist (still don't really want to get rid of either) seem to do the "everyone gets slowed down" thing well though. It would be a fitting Curser for the set though.

I don't think Leveller's too strong as an attack - it can feel painful but unless you know they've got an amazing hand you might often think "why bother" when you know they're going to get the same number of cards back anyway. My big concern is that it's probably too weak or unremarkable for $5 (it doesn't compare very favourably to Margrave). I think I want more mean looking attacks in the set, but Oppressor (with it's brutal slowdown) seems to fit the bill.

Pyromaniac's difference to Chapel is that it will leave your hand largely intact (if you want), and obliterate bad cards at an astounding rate (though limited by the fact that it costs $6), and still be useful. Also costing $6 means you'll actually have to wait a bit before absolutely nuking your junk, so it's not an immediate decision like Chapel. I only came up with it because I'm unsure about Archer (opening Saboteur doesn't seem to be too good and this is milder, but on the other hand it's helping you quite a bit), and think the "Sage" effect is ripe for good ideas. Archer's probably better than Pyromaniac though.

Thanks for commenting LastFootnote but I'd prefer to hear your thoughts on the $5 cards I have listed.
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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #81 on: March 12, 2014, 09:31:33 am »
+1

I don't think Leveller's too strong as an attack - it can feel painful but unless you know they've got an amazing hand you might often think "why bother" when you know they're going to get the same number of cards back anyway. My big concern is that it's probably too weak or unremarkable for $5 (it doesn't compare very favourably to Margrave). I think I want more mean looking attacks in the set, but Oppressor (with it's brutal slowdown) seems to fit the bill.

You are severely underestimating this kind of attack. All you're considering is the number of cards each player has left in his hand, but that is not the be-all and end-all of discarding attacks. For example, Minion's Attack (on average) hurts significantly while Urchin often doesn't hurt at all. This is because having a hand of 4 random cards is way worse than having the 4 best cards out of 5 random cards. Likewise, a hand of best-3-out-of-5 cards after being hit with Militia is still vastly superior to the 3 random cards you get in an Outpost turn.

Anyhow, when you discard down to 3 cards in hand, you can still have some sort of plan for your turn. If you discard down to 2 or fewer and then draw random cards back to 3, your turn is often just forfeit.

You seem to have this general tendency towards attacks that are super-devastating and trying to balance that by having a weak or even harmful effect for the attacker. But the published Attack cards have been moving in the opposite direction for while now. Compare Rogue or Soothsayer to any attack in Intrigue. Most players just don't like ultra-devastating attacks because they aren't fun. And although your username makes me feel silly when I point this out, it should still be a consideration when you design cards.

Thanks for commenting LastFootnote but I'd prefer to hear your thoughts on the $5 cards I have listed.

I will try to make time for that today.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #82 on: March 12, 2014, 10:25:58 am »
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Point taken RE minion and leveller. Thinking about it it's somewhere between Urchin (discard your worst card) and Pillage (discard your best card), with the added insult of ruining set ups.

Knights are a pretty brutal attack IMO but you have a point.

I don't think any of the attacks in the set are at all harsh though:
Oppressor (changed since you looked at it) can slow down opponents as much as ghost ship but the effect on your current
turn isn't much - and that's meant to be the "nastiest" attack in the set. You need to play one every shuffle to have the effect of giving out a single curse, and the attack doesn't stack well (although it may very well do so in engines as victory cards stack up on the bottom - I may add a handsize clause)
Beauty is mostly harmless, although it hits sifters (other than Beauty itself) hard.
Enchanter is on a similar level to other Cursers that takes a bit longer to get going and is guaranteed to have a response (changing the enchanted card), and at most works once per turn.
Patrol is limited by shuffle speeds (also I got rid of the chancellor effect because of openings - bottomdecking is still as good as topdecking if you're keeping track of your deck).
Rear Admiral is Urchin with a bit of a slowdown effect.
Escape Artist hurts less than Urchin. Archer may be frustrating (and possibly too good for its non attack effect - may tone it down to +2 cards), but nobody really considered that part of Saboteur's attack was it's discard, and it helps with cycling .
Need to playtest Prospector's copper. Philanthropist's copper is a complete wash.

Also noticing a big "slow down" thread in the set. Hopefully interesting effects like events will counter that.
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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #83 on: March 12, 2014, 04:24:26 pm »
+1

Cargo
Treasure - $5
Worth $1
When you play this, trash a card you have in play. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.

Seems cool to me. It is of course cute that you can trade it in for a Gold. Nice card.

Conqueror
Action - $5
Gain 2 Cards with a total cost of up to $7.
Each player (including you) looks through his discard pile and either trashes a card from it or puts a card from it on top of his deck.

So after a single Highway, this becomes "Gain a Province", since you can gain a Copper as well and then trash it from your discard pile. Sorry, it's "Gain a Province and each other player may trash or topdeck a card from his discard pile".

I feel like "Gain X cards with a total cost of up to $X" is novel enough without the added interaction effect. As discussed earlier, I would suggest that the gained cards be topdecked in order to incentivize gaining Treasures and Actions instead of Victory cards. Otherwise it's too easy/tempting to use a bunch of these to just blitz cheap VP and Coppers.

Escape Artist
Action - $5
+2 Cards
Each player may reveal a Cell from his hand. If he doesn’t, he gains a Cell from the Cell pile, putting it in his hand.
You may play a Cell from your hand.

In general I am not super jazzed about Attacks that are obvious counters to themselves. But I like the card thematically and you obviously don't need your own Escape Artists to deal with Cells. So I'm optimistic about this card. Worst case, you can get rid of the last line, perhaps replacing it with a different bonus.

Honestly, I think this card could cost $4 as written. Cells aren't as bad as Curses, the Cell goes into your hand, and for that reason the attack doesn't stack. So, yeah. I'd try it at $4. That way it's also easier for other players to buy their own Escape Artists if they want to fight the Cells they're getting more effectively.

Pariah
Action - $5
Gain a card costing up to $6. Each other player may gain a Curse, putting it on top of his deck. If he did, he also gains a copy of the card you gained.

This combines two mechanics that have proven unpopular in Donald's playtesting: gaining a Curse for a strong benefit and potentially giving your opponents a strong benefit. Perhaps two wrongs make a right here! I definitely think it's worth playtesting as-is.

Retreat
Action - $5
+1 Buy
Trash a card form your hand. Place a number of cards equal to its cost in coins from the top to your deck face down on the Retreat mat.
---
While this is in play, when you gain a card, set it aside on the Retreat mat. You may look at the cards on the retreat mat at any time. Put all cards on the Retreat mat in your hand at the start of your turn.

Reminds me a bit of Floodgate, though it's obviously quite different. I have a very hard time gauging the power of this card. It's pretty exotic. Seems interesting, though. I had conceived of a similar card that set aside a card from your deck for each card you bought, putting them into your hand at the start of your next turn. I was afraid it would be ridiculous when stacked. Your idea of putting the gained cards themselves into your next hand neatly solves that. Bravo!

Again, no idea if this is balanced. I'd be tempted to just try the underlined portion with a simpler top (keeping the +1 Buy, of course).

Town Crier
Action - $5
+$3
+1 Buy
Resolve the top Event from the Event deck

Without thinking about the specific events too much, this seems fine. Resolving an event is an easy way to spice up an otherwise dull card.

Whittler:
Action - $5
You may do this up to three times:
Reveal an action card from your hand. Play it, then trash it. Gain a card costing less than the trashed card, putting it in your hand.

Cool. This has changed quite a bit, right? I like the current version.


Either I'm in a good mood today, or your cards are getting better, or both. Keep up the good work!
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #84 on: March 12, 2014, 10:25:55 pm »
0

Quote
Honestly, I think this card could cost $4 as written. Cells aren't as bad as Curses, the Cell goes into your hand, and for that reason the attack doesn't stack. So, yeah. I'd try it at $4. That way it's also easier for other players to buy their own Escape Artists if they want to fight the Cells they're getting more effectively.

It's strictly better than the often proposed "+2 cards, discard for actions", which is too good for $4, not good enough for $5. That's what the card's meant to be - the Cell thing adds an "urchin" attack (it's actually even weaker) to give it the slight boost into $5 territory. I should perhaps put (including you) in the card text to make it clearer.

I really want to keep the interaction for Conqueror. The enormous versatility is the point of the card. I would rather it couldn't gain provinces (and may even specify "no victory cards"), but that's the problem with simplicity.

Thanks for all the feedback. Oppressor ($4) has completely changed since you last saw it, and there's also Archer (which I sometimes put down to $5). I want the "non-singles" to be a functional set so you've given me a lot to go on.

Hope my other cards weren't putting you in a bad mood :/
« Last Edit: March 12, 2014, 10:34:16 pm by NoMoreFun »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #85 on: March 12, 2014, 10:42:52 pm »
+1

Quote
Honestly, I think this card could cost $4 as written. Cells aren't as bad as Curses, the Cell goes into your hand, and for that reason the attack doesn't stack. So, yeah. I'd try it at $4. That way it's also easier for other players to buy their own Escape Artists if they want to fight the Cells they're getting more effectively.

It's strictly better than the often proposed "+2 cards, discard for actions", which is too good for $4, not good enough for $5. That's what the card's meant to be - the Cell thing adds an "urchin" attack (it's actually even weaker) to give it the slight boost into $5 territory. I should perhaps put (including you) in the card text to make it clearer.

Ah, yes. I missed that it didn't say "each other player". Sorry about that. $5 it is.

I really want to keep the interaction for Conqueror. The enormous versatility is the point of the card. I would rather it couldn't gain provinces (and may even specify "no victory cards"), but that's the problem with simplicity.

Thanks for all the feedback. Oppressor ($4) has completely changed since you last saw it, and there's also Archer (which I sometimes put down to $5). I want the "non-singles" to be a functional set so you've given me a lot to go on.

Hope my other cards weren't putting you in a bad mood :/

They weren't, no worries. Sometimes I feel bad when I am super critical about a bunch of someone's cards. But I just meant that I'm more likely to be overly critical when I'm in a bad mood. Apologies!

I will try to reassess Oppressor and Archer sometime soon!
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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #86 on: March 18, 2014, 01:06:28 am »
0

Nobody seemed to be too excited about pure reactions and when reveal effects, so I'm phasing them out. I still want to make "Conflict" work as some kind of "hot potato" card - it's a WIP (as is Ambush - I can't seem to come up with many ideas for Singles). Opportunist is gone, replaced with Blacksmith (Smelter from the earlier post - Blacksmith because of the "iron" thing as well as the +3 Cards option). Beauty no longer has its when reveal effect, and Bargain is a $1 card that forms a logical sequence with Remodel and Expand - however it may be too similar to Cargo and Repair.

Need to balance costs, terminals etc. again. This expansion is far from finished and I like it that way.
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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #87 on: March 26, 2014, 05:25:00 am »
0

More random ideas:

Annex
Action - $4
Each other player may discard any number of cards from his hand
Draw until you have twice as many cards in hand as any other player

Boutique
Action - $4
+2 Cards
+$1
+1 Buy


Locker
Action/Attack - $4
+2 Cards
Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck. He puts the revealed Actions and Treasures on his Locker Mat, and puts the other cards back in any order.
---
Discard all cards on your Locker Mat after you reshuffle.

Pearl (old idea)
Treasure - $5
Worth $2
---
When you discard this from play, put it anywhere in your deck if you have no other Pearls in play.

Evangelist (old idea)
Action - $4
Name a card other than "Province" or "Colony". Gain a copy of that card, putting it into your hand. Reveal your hand and trash all copies of the named card.

Jury (old idea)
Action/Attack - $4
+1 Action
Each other player may reveal a Curse from his hand. If nobody did, each other player gains a Curse, putting it in his hand.
If nobody gained a Curse, +$2.

Missionary
Action/Attack/Single - $4
+2 Cards
Starting with the player to your left, each player trashes any number of cards from his hand. The player who trashes the most cards gains this card, and players who didn't gain this gain a Curse.



« Last Edit: March 30, 2014, 06:19:16 pm by NoMoreFun »
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #88 on: April 01, 2014, 05:29:41 am »
0

CHANGES

* Rear Admiral has been replaced with Contrarian (it doesn't have the turn changing order thing)
* Prospector has changed and is now most definitely an Attack and now has the type to match
* Revolutionary has been replaced with Annex - in addition if you discard your cards and other players get stingy you get to draw to match them.
* Conflict has been replaced with "Missionary" from the previous post, but keeps the name "Conflict".

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NoMoreFun

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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #89 on: April 28, 2014, 12:31:08 am »
+1

I got a chance to playtest Barge and Blacksmith in 2 games, where the board was full random otherwise.

Barge may have been a bit too strong, though Forager was also on the board, which meant that it was an excellent drawer (as a draw to X). I didn't rely on it for trashing but it was a nice effect and the game was faster than usual for both players.

My friend, upon seeing Blacksmith, thought it was overpowered. I explained the comparison to Herbalist and Courtyard, but the card served him very well, although his most common play was to topdeck a gold (a function I explained was much worse than herbalist). He said it was too strong for $2, although he had never purchased it when he only had $2. I used it to gain a Wandering Minstrel, but the fact that I was unable to play it that turn was annoying (I could have instead played the minstrel, then used the "courtyard" function of the card to have a fairly big turn that turn).

Both cards felt very unique and I look forward to playing with them again. However I think both of us have overplayed dominion and quickly wanted to move on to other board games. I don't think that had anything to do with my cards, but there you go.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #90 on: June 15, 2014, 11:52:05 am »
0

Working with Showdown35's photoshop template. I still have a bit to learn; the text moves from its perfect position when I try to edit it. Once I figure it out there'll be a full set of cards in a new thread (or maybe even this one).

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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #91 on: June 15, 2014, 12:41:24 pm »
0

Does the victory card get put on your deck before or after the +3 Cards?
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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #92 on: June 15, 2014, 12:50:17 pm »
0

Does the victory card get put on your deck before or after the +3 Cards?

After.
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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #93 on: June 22, 2014, 01:51:32 am »
0

I changed Philanthropist to

Diggings:
Action - $4
+1 Card
+2 Actions
Gain a Silver, putting it on top of your deck. Each other player gains a Silver.

I thought a simpler card would be more suitable, and the "Silver" option of Philanthropist was the most interesting. It didn't look good with just +1 action, so I made it a Village. It is a self sabotaging card, as the Silvers, especially topdecked ones, make it harder to play lots of actions. However, another way of seeing the card is the +2 actions give you 2 chances to make use of the Silver that turn. I like Villages that aren't easily interchangeable with "Village" anyway.


With an extra village added, and "anywhere in your deck" gone because Rear Admiral is now Contrarian, Tavern is now:

Store
Action - $2
+1 Card
+1 Action
+1 Buy
+$1
Put a card from your hand anywhere in your deck

The name's for both meanings (Store as in Market, or store as in storage?). I think "anywhere in your deck" is fine on a non terminal, as most of the time you'd either want to topdeck a card for next turn, bottom deck a junk card, or 2nd from top a card for wishing well/herald, and that wouldn't be too hard to figure out. Compare this card to Candlestick Maker or Haven as a power guide.

Revolutionary and Tower have slightly changed. Revolutionary lets you (and everyone else) topdeck a card for safekeeping. Tower trashes the top card of the pile to prevent games going on forever, unless it's a victory card. It has the consequence of making Duchies cost $4 in Hunting Grounds games, but otherwise on trash effects aren't very troublesome.

This will be my last post in this thread - I will make a new thread with card images soon.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2014, 01:54:49 am by NoMoreFun »
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silverspawn

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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #94 on: June 22, 2014, 07:39:18 am »
0

Quote
Diggings:
Action - $4
+1 Card
+2 Actions
Gain a Silver, putting it on top of your deck. Each other player gains a Silver.

the thing is, if you play 3p, and this is the only village around, everyone gets flooded with silver to a ridiculous degree, and noone will connect any action cards, but everyone will be able to buy provinces.

Quote
Store
Action - $2
+1 Card
+1 Action
+1 Buy
+$1
Put a card from your hand anywhere in your deck

seems crazy good to me, but not necessarily game breaking, because it's a support card. i think you underestimate the amount of stuff a good player can do with it. herald is a good call, but not the only abuse.

did you test these?

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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #95 on: June 22, 2014, 07:09:11 pm »
0

Quote
Diggings:
Action - $4
+1 Card
+2 Actions
Gain a Silver, putting it on top of your deck. Each other player gains a Silver.

the thing is, if you play 3p, and this is the only village around, everyone gets flooded with silver to a ridiculous degree, and noone will connect any action cards, but everyone will be able to buy provinces.


That's why it isn't like any other Village. Maybe I'll get rid of the extra +Action after all. It's meant to be in a similar family to Conspirator, Mystic and Minion. It speeds up the game, but you should be going even faster. I guess it needs a bit more variety.

Final version of "that" card:

Philanthropist:
Action - $4
+1 Card
+1 Action
Choose one; put it in the location in parentheses
Gain a Copper (in your hand)
Gain a Silver (on top of your deck)
Gain a Gold (on the bottom of your deck)
Each other player may gain a copy of the card you gained this way

There you go. No attack ambiguity. No resembling existing cards. Yes there's 2 "everyone gets treasure, you get better" cards in the set now (along with prospector), and I think that's fine. One's terminal, the other's non terminal. One's an attack, the other isn't. One card asks the question "how much money do you need now", the other is "where are you in your shuffle relative to other players".

I don't think Store is better than Candlestick Maker. I put +buy on it because it doesn't compare well to Haven and Candlestick Maker without it. It does make Pawn look bad but Pawn can be a cantrip, and this isn't. I'd put it in the "usually not a bad idea to pick up, and can be a key card, but not spammable" category, with Cellar, Squire and maybe Haven.
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silverspawn

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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #96 on: June 22, 2014, 07:25:32 pm »
0

Quote from: NoMoreFun
I don't think Store is better than Candlestick Maker. I put +buy on it because it doesn't compare well to Haven and Candlestick Maker without it. It does make Pawn look bad but Pawn can be a cantrip, and this isn't. I'd put it in the "usually not a bad idea to pick up, and can be a key card, but not spammable" category, with Cellar, Squire and maybe Haven.

Quote from: silverspawn
i think you underestimate the amount of stuff a good player can do with it.

you can prepare a double KC-Draw turn even in a deck full of junk, because you can just put everything on the bottom of your deck, or prepare a forge turn in the same way. you can prepare your next turn in an engine. you can load up gold in a slog to afford a colony. you can bottomdeck a silver to afford an early 7$

it's most similar to haven, because you can set aside a card and use it another turn.

cons:
-> the card you set aside will take up a draw on the turn you use it
pros:
-> +buy
-> +$
-> you have a lot more flexibility over when you're going to use the set aside card
-> it's not a duration card

as i said, it seems crazy good.

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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #97 on: June 22, 2014, 07:32:50 pm »
0

Quote
+1 Card
+1 Action
Choose one; put it in the location in parentheses
Gain a Copper (in your hand)
Gain a Silver (on top of your deck)
Gain a Gold (on the bottom of your deck)
Each other player may gain a copy of the card you gained this way
I don't think this fits on a card. you have 2vannilla bonus..es...boni?bonis? and another 5 lines, at least two of which will take 2 lines, so you have at least 9 lines and two of them have to use bold font.

@mechanics: i think this card is really weak. all three options are really week. I can't really think of a situation where I'd buy it. I'm also not a friend of cantrips that gain treasures.

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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #98 on: June 23, 2014, 03:49:04 am »
0

Basically, Philanthropist is
"+1 Card
+1 Action
Choose 1:
+$1, and gain a Copper,
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal a Silver, put it back and discard the rest,
Next time you reshuffle, put one of your Golds on top of your deck"

I guess none of those are particularly appealing, but they're quite unique and not that weak. I mainly like the symmetry, which is the theme of the set.

I've gotten rid of Store's +buy for now. Nobody had a problem with Rear Admiral which had the same effect, although I suppose that's because everyone got to put a card from their hand anywhere. Indeed the reason why I thought it needed the $ and +buy was because without it the card was like being attacked by a Rear Admiral. In order to make any big setups with Store, you need to have all the cards in the same hand as a Store, and get them all lined up within the same shuffle. The "caravan" effect on Haven is huge, and also the fact that it never takes up space means you have the option of setting aside junk to make the card a harmless cantrip (the reason a card like Pawn could ever compete with the likes of Squire or Candlestick Maker).

Really not sure whether to go with Rear Admiral or Contrarian. Definitely not going to go with a combo of the two effects.
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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #99 on: August 18, 2014, 09:22:09 am »
0

Making card art is more time consuming than I expected, even with the photoshop template. I will get there eventually.

In the meantime, commentary is welcome. In particular the following cards are "new":

Conflict
Action/Attack/Single - $3
+2 Cards
Starting with the player to your left, each player (including you) trashes any number of cards from his hand. The player who trashed the most cards first gains this card, and all other players gain a Curse.

Diggings
Action - $4
+1 Card
+2 Actions
---
When you gain this card, if it's your action phase, you may play it.

Prospector
Action - $3
+1 Action
Gain a Silver, putting it anywhere in your deck.


Also the two "everyone gains the same treasure" cards that I have talked about endlessly across the forum are now gone.

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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #100 on: August 18, 2014, 09:44:14 am »
+1

I've tried to be a bit adventurous with card art.




EDIT:
Some of the card text is wrong, and I'm also bad at saving my work.

From earlier (haven't put in the new template yet, also some the text is out of date)


« Last Edit: August 18, 2014, 09:52:36 am by NoMoreFun »
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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #101 on: August 18, 2014, 01:47:44 pm »
+1

The art (minus archer) looks cool, but it doesn't look like official cards. As long as that wasn't what you're going for, I'd say good job.

about the new cards, I'm afraid I'm less positive.

Diggings is just crazy with gainers.

Workshop/Armory: +1 Card, +2 Actions, gain a village
Ironworks: +1 Card, +3 Actions, gain a village

that has to have been your intention, since that's pretty much where it differes from basic village, but making all gainers op is not really great. I guess it also works for remodel cards, where it's probably less broken and might be cool. like fortress, it's a basic village sometimes, and pretty op a lot of other times, but it seems less interesting. dunno. no reason not to test it.

I'm not feeling prospector. It seems worse than squire, and it costs 4$. If you give it +1$ instead of the +action, it's probably fine, but not exciting. You could try to reuse the "anywhere in your deck" idea on another card though.

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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #102 on: August 18, 2014, 02:17:18 pm »
0

Does Archer's attack really warrant it costing $6?
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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #103 on: August 20, 2014, 03:35:40 am »
0

Does Archer's attack really warrant it costing $6?

No, but its comparable to Hunting Grounds as a drawer, and the attack would also be quite annoying if you could open with it.
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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #104 on: August 20, 2014, 03:41:21 am »
0

The art (minus archer) looks cool, but it doesn't look like official cards. As long as that wasn't what you're going for, I'd say good job.

The official cards don't seem to have any consistent style, so I've branched out a bit from the usual renaissance paintings.
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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #105 on: August 20, 2014, 03:35:11 pm »
+1

Quote
Amigos
Types: Action – Duration
Cost: $3
+$1. At the start of your next turn, +1 Action.

When you discard this from play, draw an additional card at the end of that turn's Clean-up phase.

I strongly suggest trying Amigos with +$2 when played instead of +$1. The second and third turn bonuses are nice, but that delay matters.


Quote
Contrarian
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+3 Cards. Each player (including you) puts a card from his hand anywhere in his deck.

When you gain this, resolve the top Event of the Event deck.

This needs a clause to prevent other players from losing their whole hand. Other than that it seems good. On-gain seems like a promising place for Events.


Quote
Archer
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $6
Each player (including you) reveals cards from his deck until he reveals one costing $3 or more. He either discards it or puts it back (you choose), and discards the other revealed cards.

Hmmm… I agree that the attack would be annoying on early turns, but I don't know that it justifies it costing $6. But I don't like the Attack in general. Usually you're cycling to and then discarding the opponents' good cards (until they green), which is a lot of digging for nothing. I don't have a suggested fix, but I don't like it as-is.


Quote
Cell
Types: Action
Cost: $0*
Trash this. Discard any number of cards from your hand. +1 Action per card discarded.

When you trash this, return it to the Cell pile. (This is not in the Supply.)

I think this is maybe too complex for a penalty card. The thing where it trashes itself and then that triggers the bottom is cute, but also convoluted. I'd rather see something along these lines:

Quote
Cell
Types: Action
Cost: $0*
Return this to the Cell pile.

When you trash this, put it into your discard pile. (This is not in the Supply.)

Obviously this is quite different, but it is much simpler. With Escape Artist in particular, this version of Cell actually hurts, which I think the other version usually won't (it makes you discard one card from your remaining hand of 5 cards).

EDIT: Oh, I see. There are only 7 copies of Cell. Hmm… Well, it's tough to have a penalty card that actually hurts yet players will usually want to return to the stack. If getting rid of the card is actually painful, then sometimes players will opt not to do so. Especially if there are only 7 copies.


Quote
Oppressor
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $4
Look at the top 5 cards of your deck. Put one in your hand and discard the others. Each other player reveals the top card of his deck. If it isn't a Cell, he gains a Cell from the Cell pile, putting it on top of his deck.

I like it! I think it probably wouldn't be too strong even with my suggested version of Cell.


Quote
Escape Artist
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $5
+2 Cards. +1 Action.
Each player may reveal a Cell from his hand. If he doesn't, he gains a Cell from the Cell pile, putting it in his hand.

Looks promising.
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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #106 on: August 24, 2014, 10:05:31 am »
0

Thanks for the feedback on the cards LFN, but the most up to date versions were in the OP (eg contrarian has the clause, oppressor is a completely different card). I was just showing off some art.

I'm not sure what you don't like about Archer's attack. It's a spy that's guaranteed to delay a good card from the shuffle in the early game, while late game it's more like fortune teller. It's no Pillage but it's definitely going to hurt a little, and it's slightly different from the other "spy" attacks. Meanwhile the draw is either "+4 cards" or "+3 cards, and one of them is good", with a little bit of cycling (although that aspect is a "wash").  It could also be a "chancellor, then draw", but that's all the more reason to make it cost $6. Compare with Library and Journeyman.

Cell is purpose built for the 3 cards that give it out, which explore some common fan card ideas:
* Escape artist - +2 Cards, discard for actions (being a very mild attack should save it from being too good for 4, not good enough for 5)
* Patrol - A "when gain" Militia
* Oppressor - A "next turn" Militia
Escape artist is equivalent to urchin, while the other 2 are equivalent to militia (there's the card you didn't draw, and you can discard any other card to still have an Action), but there's a bit of versatility.
Your alternative is not a bad idea, but it's not the same card at all.

EDIT: Like I said in an earlier post, the new cards are Conflict (a single), Diggings and Prospector.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2014, 10:12:34 am by NoMoreFun »
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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #107 on: August 24, 2014, 10:25:19 am »
0

I'm not feeling prospector. It seems worse than squire, and it costs 4$. If you give it +1$ instead of the +action, it's probably fine, but not exciting. You could try to reuse the "anywhere in your deck" idea on another card though.

The +1 Action is so you can play it, then use another card to draw the silver you just gained (which was the original intention of the "everyone gets a silver" prospector). Also with multiple copies you can get a "stash" effect going to guarantee a strong buy. Prospector/Prospector (it's a $3 card) would be a good opening on boards with powerful but expensive cards - too good?

Contrarian also has the "anywhere in your deck" idea, and Store, while limited to the bottom (so it doesn't steal Haven's thunder), is potentially good for lining up other cards, which would be one of the ideal uses of such a card.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2014, 10:26:50 am by NoMoreFun »
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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #108 on: August 24, 2014, 11:39:13 am »
+1

EDIT: Like I said in an earlier post, the new cards are Conflict (a single), Diggings and Prospector.

Conflict doesn't look like I'd want to buy it much. It helps others trash so much, even though it probably gives them a Curse too.

Diggings looks good. Worth playtesting as-is.

Prospector looks weak. I think I'd like to see it with +$1 (or as a Treasure worth $1).

And I still think Amigos should have +$2 on-play. It looks really weak right now.
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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #109 on: August 24, 2014, 12:55:31 pm »
0

Quote
+1 Card
+1 Action
Choose one; put it in the location in parentheses
Gain a Copper (in your hand)
Gain a Silver (on top of your deck)
Gain a Gold (on the bottom of your deck)
Each other player may gain a copy of the card you gained this way
I don't think this fits on a card. you have 2vannilla bonus..es...boni?bonis? and another 5 lines, at least two of which will take 2 lines, so you have at least 9 lines and two of them have to use bold font.

@mechanics: i think this card is really weak. all three options are really week. I can't really think of a situation where I'd buy it. I'm also not a friend of cantrips that gain treasures.
Maybe...
Quote
Choose one; put it in the location in parentheses
Gain a Copper (in your hand)
Gain a Silver (on top of your deck)
Gain a Gold (on the bottom of your deck)
Each other player may gain a copy of the card you gained this way. If anyone does, +1 Card, +1 Action.

It makes their choice dynamic and cuts down on lines of text.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #110 on: August 24, 2014, 02:56:17 pm »
0

Quote
Choose one; put it in the location in parentheses
Gain a Copper (in your hand)
Gain a Silver (on top of your deck)
Gain a Gold (on the bottom of your deck)
Each other player may gain a copy of the card you gained this way. If anyone does, +1 Card, +1 Action.

It makes their choice dynamic and cuts down on lines of text.
[/quote]

Good for saving space, but maybe the +1 action shouldn't be negotiable for the same reason tournament's isn't. The number of different possibilities makes my head spin. At any rate I'm not going ahead with that card idea any more since nobody seemed to be that impressed with the general concept.

EDIT: Like I said in an earlier post, the new cards are Conflict (a single), Diggings and Prospector.

Conflict doesn't look like I'd want to buy it much. It helps others trash so much, even though it probably gives them a Curse too.

Diggings looks good. Worth playtesting as-is.

Prospector looks weak. I think I'd like to see it with +$1 (or as a Treasure worth $1).

And I still think Amigos should have +$2 on-play. It looks really weak right now.

I'm sure how good conflict is will reveal itself the moment I get to playtest it. If trashing isn't fun then I'll try something with discarding. It's a hot potato and I'm sure that there's some fun version of the card out there.

Are you thinking about Prospector in isolation? It turns any "+1 Card" into "+$2". Multiple copies seriously enable big purchases, and you don't even have to line them up. It's definitely better than Bureaucrat, though not strictly (so it can cost $3). Making it a "copper" or a cantrip just seems like it's too much of a no brainer to get the card; I'd like to think I'm designing strategically interesting cards.

Amigos would easily be one of the best $3 terminal silvers and the card self synergises too well. An idea I had a while ago was for the card's randomiser to be a special card that made Amigos worth VP (it was called "All for one" when the card was still "Musketeers"). There were several of these, but I then decided that you should just be able to pick out a deck without searching through the randomiser pile to get the additional card (whereas I'm not sure whether Singles would go in the randomiser at all). I could also replace it with a less interesting card with the a similar concept like

Fleet
Action/Duration - $3
+2 Cards
If another player has a Fleet in play, resolve the top Event from the Event deck
At the start of your next turn, +1 Action



« Last Edit: August 24, 2014, 02:58:38 pm by NoMoreFun »
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silverspawn

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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #111 on: August 24, 2014, 02:59:43 pm »
0

without having context, I think that works much easier. Like so:

Quote
Choose one: gain A putting it X; or gain B putting it Y; or gain C putting it Z. Each opponent gains a copy of the card you gained.

you don't need the () thing, it's implicitly clear that the X Y Z doesn't apply to him.

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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #112 on: August 24, 2014, 03:00:09 pm »
0

The other thing is I like to run the gamut of vanilla bonuses. The official sets do a similar thing (Dark ages has a +$ for all numbers from 1-5).

Edit: I was referring to top text, but then I remembered there's no +$3 (I was thinking of count). Still, there's quite a lot of variety.

« Last Edit: August 24, 2014, 03:05:08 pm by NoMoreFun »
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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #113 on: September 05, 2014, 08:39:06 am »
0

Amigos has been replaced with:

Fleet
Action/Duration - $4
+2 Cards
+$1 if any other player has a Duration in play
At the start of your next turn, +1 Action
---
While this card is in play, when you would gain a cheaper card, you may, instead, gain a Fleet.

Beauty is now $3

Also Dock is no longer a "next turn" Apprentice, and is instead a far simpler card (because the Caravan+Royal Seal effect is good enough without the spoofs). It's now:
Dock
Action - $5
+1 Card
+1 Buy
+$1
---
While this is in play, when you gain a card, you may set it aside on the Dock mat. Put all cards on the Dock mat in your hand at the start of your turn.

Is it too similar to Wharf?
« Last Edit: September 05, 2014, 08:44:29 am by NoMoreFun »
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #114 on: September 05, 2014, 11:30:42 am »
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Beauty is back to $4. The cost distribution is a bit out of whack but I'm ok with Fleet being a $4 card with a feature that makes it more like a $3 card (easier to get multiple copies). It just seemed way too good for $3.
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silverspawn

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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #115 on: September 05, 2014, 12:09:02 pm »
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Quote
While this card is in play, when you would gain a cheaper card, you may, instead, gain a Fleet.

is there a reason for the "cheaper"?

NoMoreFun

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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #116 on: September 05, 2014, 12:56:42 pm »
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Quote
While this card is in play, when you would gain a cheaper card, you may, instead, gain a Fleet.

is there a reason for the "cheaper"?

I guess not.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #117 on: September 11, 2014, 01:27:50 pm »
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Diggings has been replaced by Outskirts

Outskirts
Action/Reaction - $3
+2 Actions
+1 Card
---
When another player plays an Outskirts, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, +1 Card and put this on top of your deck.


I wanted to design another cantrip village that could cost $3. In games with both this and Village, you might want to avoid triggering the reaction in your opponents, so you may go for the regular village. Otherwise it's a nice form of mild deck control. It seems a bit dull; would like to hear anyone else's thoughts on the "challenge" of making a $3 cantrip village (other than the one we all know).
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silverspawn

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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #118 on: September 15, 2014, 05:33:49 pm »
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it should be +1 card, +2 actions, not the other way. cards come before actions.

I don't think this card works though. if you have two of them in your hand, and your opponent plays one, you can draw your whole deck like so:

  • reveal O1
  • +1 card and put O1 on top of your deck
  • reveal O2
  • +1 card and put O2 on top of your deck
  • continue with #1


Quote
would like to hear anyone else's thoughts on the "challenge" of making a $3 cantrip village
you probably can't make a good "cantrip" village, because then you only have vanilla boni, and your card needs to have +2 actions or +3 actions. you're extremely limited.

Deadlock39

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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #119 on: September 15, 2014, 06:19:48 pm »
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It can't draw your whole deck, because once you have drawn the first card of your deck, you are just alternately drawing O1 and O2, and getting nowhere.

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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #120 on: September 15, 2014, 06:31:43 pm »
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It can't draw your whole deck, because once you have drawn the first card of your deck, you are just alternately drawing O1 and O2, and getting nowhere.
wait... it doesn't increase your handsize? you're right, it doesn't. well, then it can't draw your deck, yea. but then it's also not very useful period. For some reason I thought this would increase your handsize. I don't know why I thought that.

NoMoreFun

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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #121 on: September 24, 2014, 10:08:35 am »
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If you like walls of text, the post under the OP is a "secret history" of my thought process behind the cards.
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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #122 on: April 05, 2015, 11:17:33 pm »
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Looks like it's back to the drawing board.
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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #123 on: April 08, 2015, 09:11:56 pm »
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I'll have to wait until Adventures comes out but it seems like none of the "Events" are the same as any of my "Singles". So many clever ideas. I'm less enthusiastic about my "Singles" that aren't entirely a when buy effect. Maybe they'll stay but the novelty is gone.

My "Events" can be renamed "News".

There's a lot of cards I'm not particularly enthusiastic about any more, so much to refine, but the "Cards that do the same thing to every player" theme seems good. To be continued.

Rethinking "Cargo":

Degree
Treasure - $4
Worth $0
When you play this, trash a card you have in play. Gain an Action card costing exactly $1 more than it.

It's not worth anything, and it trashes all your money, and eventually you'll trash it to be something else.
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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #124 on: April 09, 2015, 01:01:28 am »
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Rethinking "Cargo":

Degree
Treasure - $4
Worth $0
When you play this, trash a card you have in play. Gain an Action card costing exactly $1 more than it.

It's not worth anything, and it trashes all your money, and eventually you'll trash it to be something else.
strictly better than feast (which imo isn't really a bad thing for a card like feast, but generally frowned on for a card of the same cost)

scott_pilgrim

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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #125 on: April 09, 2015, 01:31:46 am »
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Rethinking "Cargo":

Degree
Treasure - $4
Worth $0
When you play this, trash a card you have in play. Gain an Action card costing exactly $1 more than it.

It's not worth anything, and it trashes all your money, and eventually you'll trash it to be something else.
strictly better than feast (which imo isn't really a bad thing for a card like feast, but generally frowned on for a card of the same cost)

I thought that too, but then I thought, the only time Feast ever gets used anyway is with Procession/Throne Room/King's Court, which don't work on Degree.  Also note that Degree is restricted to action cards.  Still, it doesn't feel right how favorably Degree compares to Feast, but maybe it's just sort of an Ironmonger vs. Spy thing.
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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #126 on: April 09, 2015, 02:05:28 am »
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Rethinking "Cargo":

Degree
Treasure - $4
Worth $0
When you play this, trash a card you have in play. Gain an Action card costing exactly $1 more than it.

It's not worth anything, and it trashes all your money, and eventually you'll trash it to be something else.
strictly better than feast (which imo isn't really a bad thing for a card like feast, but generally frowned on for a card of the same cost)

I thought that too, but then I thought, the only time Feast ever gets used anyway is with Procession/Throne Room/King's Court, which don't work on Degree.  Also note that Degree is restricted to action cards.  Still, it doesn't feel right how favorably Degree compares to Feast, but maybe it's just sort of an Ironmonger vs. Spy thing.
Oh yeah, you're right. Well then, I like it. 

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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #127 on: April 10, 2015, 05:28:58 am »
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It's also not strictly better because Degree trashing itself must gain a $5 card.  Feast can gain things that cost less than $5.  Usually you don't do that, of course, but you can.
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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #128 on: April 23, 2015, 09:25:06 pm »
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In practice, how complicated is "anywhere in your deck"?

It will end up being used for:
* Top decking
* 2nd from top decking (for cards like Wishing Well, Herald, Magpie)
* 6th and 7th from the top (if your next hand would make use of top/bottom deck)
* Clustering cards together for a big turn in a defined "pocket" of the deck (probably the bottom)
* Bottom decking as the next best thing to discarding

I don't think it will cause too much AP but I'm not a particularly good judge of AP.

I'd like to hear anyone's thoughts on this issue. Personally I'd like a card that can make more use of the "Stash" effect.

If people like "anywhere in your deck", Outskirts' reaction will change to "+1 Card and put this anywhere in your deck".

If people don't, Prospector will change to "While this is in play, when you gain a card, put that card on the top or bottom of your deck", and Contrarian will become some other Courtyard variant.
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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #129 on: April 23, 2015, 09:36:18 pm »
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Also another thought

Mall
Action - $3
+2 Actions
+1 Buy
+$1
You may put this card on top of your deck.

A recurring engine piece, at the cost of a slot in your hand.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #130 on: April 23, 2015, 10:13:22 pm »
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Once I'm back from my travels I'll make a new topic with card images. I'm not going to update the OP any more.

Changes to be made:

* My "Events" (deck of cards that do random things which effect everyone) will become "Headlines"
* Ambush, Fete, Patrol, Enchanter, Package and Pioneer will become Events just like in Dominion Adventures (Also there are 6 events, to match the 6 blanks in Dominion Adventures - just a coincedence).
* Not sure what to do with the other Singles. Baroness and Rival Markets are probably gone. I like Conflict and Fool, and any other singles will be of the "card that gets passed around" variety (for which I have a few ideas). I might even drop "single" as a card type.
* From my earlier posts, cargo will become Degree (worth 0, costs 4, only gains actions), and the "anywhere decking" will be unified.
* Repair's reaction will be changed to "Card with the same cost" (further adding to the name) and some other card (probably a card to replace "Whittler") will get the "card costing less" reaction.
* Oppressor's hand attack will become less specific, and might end up being an "everyone" effect (depending on how Contrarian ends up).
* A few name changes
« Last Edit: April 23, 2015, 10:14:55 pm by NoMoreFun »
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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #131 on: April 23, 2015, 10:37:46 pm »
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Possible idea:

Whittler
Action/Reaction - $5
+1 Action
Trash a card from your hand. Gain 2 cards each costing less than it, putting one into your hand.
---
When you would gain a card, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, instead, gain a card costing less than it.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2015, 10:43:18 pm by NoMoreFun »
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #132 on: April 23, 2015, 11:41:17 pm »
+2

I think Mall generates infinite coin (and buys and actions) with the card token on it.
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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #133 on: April 26, 2015, 03:29:51 pm »
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I think Mall generates infinite coin (and buys and actions) with the card token on it.

This is correct. Back to the drawing board.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Dominion: Pandemonium - Expansion WIP Thread
« Reply #134 on: October 25, 2017, 03:27:38 am »
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Singles, Trinkets and "Events" have appeared in similar official concepts (Events, Heirlooms and Boons respectively). Looks like I'll salvage this expansion for parts and start again.
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