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Author Topic: IsoDom 2 Final  (Read 55602 times)

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Mean Mr Mustard

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IsoDom 2 Final
« on: October 29, 2011, 12:28:46 am »
+4

Great job on smoking the competition, Rabid!
« Last Edit: December 04, 2011, 07:15:46 pm by Mean Mr Mustard »
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Jake <a href=http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201203/17/game-20120317-030206-6456f97c.html>opening: opening: Silver / Jack of All Trades</a>
<b>IsoDom1 Winner:  shark_bait
IsoDom2 Winner: Rabid
Isodom3 Winner: Fabian</b>
Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalie ar Atanatári, Utúlie'n auré!

Geronimoo

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 1
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2011, 04:08:33 am »
0

6. rspeer (25)
vs
4. geronimoo (13)

Hmmm, is this coincidence? The two simulators against each other  ;D Can we let our simulators play each other?
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Rabid

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 1
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2011, 06:05:38 am »
0

Thanks for organising.
Just wondering why it is 5 v 3 & 6 v 4?
Should it not be 5 v 4 & 6 v 3 or am I not understanding the system?
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painted_cow

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 1
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2011, 09:28:51 am »
0

First of all I think the 4 win system is quite good, much better than Best of 3 games.

I would like to know, whether we play Veto Mode and with Point Counter or not, or we communicate these rules manually with our opponent?
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Reyk

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 1
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2011, 06:22:46 pm »
0

Maybe the first result?

<b>South Conference</b>

1. califax (4)
vs
8. Glooble (29)

califax wins 4-1. Thx Jake for organising.
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Mean Mr Mustard

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 1
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2011, 10:07:51 pm »
0

Okay,  to address a few questions:  Rabid, yes your way is the right way but if you will all forgive me, I am going to leave it as it is.  Cow: it is up to you guys to decide how you want to play your matches, just as long as they are randomly generated. 

Grats Califax for advancing, and thank you Glooble for playing!
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Jake <a href=http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201203/17/game-20120317-030206-6456f97c.html>opening: opening: Silver / Jack of All Trades</a>
<b>IsoDom1 Winner:  shark_bait
IsoDom2 Winner: Rabid
Isodom3 Winner: Fabian</b>
Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalie ar Atanatári, Utúlie'n auré!

rspeer

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 1
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2011, 09:53:11 am »
0

6. rspeer (25)
vs
4. geronimoo (13)

Hmmm, is this coincidence? The two simulators against each other  ;D Can we let our simulators play each other?

Someone knows a friendly rivalry when they see one! Although that someone might be a seeding algorithm with no agentive thought.
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greatexpectations

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 1
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2011, 01:41:37 pm »
0

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Rabid

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 1
« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2011, 02:05:48 pm »
0

Thanks for the games were fun, very close match.
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Mean Mr Mustard

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 1
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2011, 09:04:57 pm »
0

Congratulations winners!  On a side note, if anyone sees theParty in isotropic refer him to this thread.. He knew about it and asked me to include him but I haven't seen him since.
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Jake <a href=http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201203/17/game-20120317-030206-6456f97c.html>opening: opening: Silver / Jack of All Trades</a>
<b>IsoDom1 Winner:  shark_bait
IsoDom2 Winner: Rabid
Isodom3 Winner: Fabian</b>
Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalie ar Atanatári, Utúlie'n auré!

shark_bait

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 1
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2011, 10:16:22 pm »
0

Buggz and I finished a 7-game thriller with the last match being decided by 1 point.  I ended up winning, but it was a very competitive series.  Council room logs will be posted tomorrow.  Thanks for the matches Buggz.
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Hello.  Name's Bruce.  It's all right.  I understand.  Why trust a shark, right?

Is quite curious - Who is the mystical "Celestial Chameleon"?

PerdHapley

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 1
« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2011, 04:18:25 am »
0

Lionel and I just finished our set, 4-0 in my favor. I'll post logs when they pop up, but the short version is that I got extremely lucky in all four matches and he was very cool about it. I'm looking forward to my inevitable comeuppance in round two.

EDIT: And here are the logs.

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111031-011457-649f3596.html
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111031-011039-b02e723c.html
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111031-010651-b09d96f6.html
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111031-010321-88aff77e.html
« Last Edit: November 01, 2011, 03:42:51 pm by PerdHapley »
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Buggz

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 1
« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2011, 04:57:45 am »
0

Congrats again, shark_bait! Great games, fun chat, I had a good time.

My only regret is not taking the time to think twice about the kingdom in that Horn of Plenty game; it strafed my mind because of a past log I'd read which finished the exact same way, but for some reason I promptly proceeded to ignore it. The one where you ignored the colonies in order to take seven provinces in one swoop though, that took me completely by surprise. Well played!

I'll be back if there are more tournaments on the horizon.
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theParty

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 1
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2011, 02:41:38 pm »
0

I'm here Mean Mr. Mustard.  I've been in NJ and the east coast storm knocked out power where I was for a few days.

On a side note - does anyone know what michaelharris's dominion strategy name is??  Tried to message him, but is said "one or more recipients does not exist".  Anyone know?  Or point me to the old thread where people were signing up so I can link to him from there??
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Mean Mr Mustard

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 1
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2011, 03:51:50 pm »
0

His name is WrathofGlod.
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Jake <a href=http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201203/17/game-20120317-030206-6456f97c.html>opening: opening: Silver / Jack of All Trades</a>
<b>IsoDom1 Winner:  shark_bait
IsoDom2 Winner: Rabid
Isodom3 Winner: Fabian</b>
Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalie ar Atanatári, Utúlie'n auré!

mith

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 1
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2011, 09:53:49 pm »
0

Congrats. :)

Someday I'll win one of these matches...
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Davio

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Buggz

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 1
« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2011, 12:15:50 pm »
0

Buggz and I finished a 7-game thriller with the last match being decided by 1 point.  I ended up winning, but it was a very competitive series.  Council room logs will be posted tomorrow.  Thanks for the matches Buggz.
Here we go. Good job on getting councilroom back up and running, guided.

#1: shark_bait - Buggz
#2: shark_bait - Buggz
#3: shark_bait - Buggz
#4: shark_bait - Buggz
#5: Buggz - shark_bait
#6: shark_bait - Buggz
#7: Buggz - shark_bait
« Last Edit: November 01, 2011, 12:20:24 pm by Buggz »
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Mean Mr Mustard

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 1
« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2011, 03:10:55 pm »
0

Oh, nice upsets.  Good job guys, and grats to the overdogs who won as well.
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Jake <a href=http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201203/17/game-20120317-030206-6456f97c.html>opening: opening: Silver / Jack of All Trades</a>
<b>IsoDom1 Winner:  shark_bait
IsoDom2 Winner: Rabid
Isodom3 Winner: Fabian</b>
Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalie ar Atanatári, Utúlie'n auré!

Qvist

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 1
« Reply #26 on: November 01, 2011, 04:42:43 pm »
0

Thx for playing and for organizing. Next time I will prepare better.

But I'm still annoyed that my turn 17 in the second game only got me $15 instead of $16 for buying 2 provinces and winning the game.
So painted_cow's Noble Brigand for trashing 3 silvers did his job.

Mean Mr Mustard

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 1
« Reply #27 on: November 01, 2011, 08:02:32 pm »
0

Alright, Max put up a strong fight, taking a 2-1 lead before falling three games in a row.  I never felt safe.  Good match, Max.  Thank you for the games!
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Jake <a href=http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201203/17/game-20120317-030206-6456f97c.html>opening: opening: Silver / Jack of All Trades</a>
<b>IsoDom1 Winner:  shark_bait
IsoDom2 Winner: Rabid
Isodom3 Winner: Fabian</b>
Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalie ar Atanatári, Utúlie'n auré!

WanderingWinder

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 1
« Reply #28 on: November 02, 2011, 01:03:54 pm »
+2

WanderingWinder and I played a fun match yesterday, without veto mode for maximum randomness! He was the well-deserved victor and a good sport:

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111031-165156-b3a74855.html
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111031-170218-f987e830.html
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111031-170959-5916e1e6.html
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111031-171647-e136d6a3.html
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111031-172856-9ff377f1.html
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111031-173533-d3355467.html
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111031-174017-172f97b6.html

Thanks to MMM for organizing.
Some really interesting games here. I'm going to post my brief comments.
Game 1: We both messed up pretty badly by grabbing gardens before silk roads. Gardens may be better against provinces on a board like this (though I'm not sure), but in the rush matchup, it can only be worse, and the rush is going to win against provinces every time. Interesting here was Festuca's turn 4/5. He buys the Inn, I think the right move, but I think he needed to not play it, so as to not trigger the reshuffle. Also, 1st turn is big advantage on a board like this, and I felt very lucky to win when I did. On turn 10!
Game 2: Well, I think the swindler is much better than the silver here, but the big thing is that I got Chapel-c-e-e-e on turn 3, he got his with four coppers. I think that was pretty well game over. I'm actually impressed he came so close in the end.
Game 3: I don't understand this game! I would think that fool's gold strategy would be DREADFUL here. I wasn't sure whether I wanted to have steward first and then a courtyard, or go straight BM/Courtyard. With his strategy, I figured I'd win easily either way, but... well, I do think he got somewhat lucky to prosecute his first-turn advantage like this, but I'm impressed he was even able to do that. I just don't get how that can be competitive, but it clearly can be.
Game 4: Basically, lighthouse is amazing when there's a decent attack on board. Prefer it to silver. Furthermore, I feel like Merchant ship is pretty underrated. 6 provinces in 19 turns is not bad at all.
Game 5: Well, there was a lot going on here. HT/Duke. Black Market/Tactician. HT/Tactician. I opted for the simple HT/Duke strategy, he went for a more complicated combination of everything. It worked out quite nicely for him, as you can see. Props to Festuca.
Game 6: I do think I should have had some advantage here with 2 tributes to 1, and I think silver is better than the warehouse. But it's not all that much. I'm impressed he was able to fight his way to the tie here.
Game 7: Well, I definitely don't like opening with farming village here or almost ever. Swindler is going to be really key, I think, because there's something sorta bad at many price levels of your important cards. I did get the nice break of hitting copper with my first swindle of him, whereas he hit estate. The tough part came later on, where swindler and wharf were both elite terminals, and I wanted as many and to play as many as I could. I'm sure I made a few inaccuracies, but overall I'm pretty happy with this one.

All in all, a very hard fought match, and my hat is off to Festuca, who I'm pretty sure is fairly underrated, at least based on these 7 games. 

Mean Mr Mustard

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 1
« Reply #29 on: November 02, 2011, 11:55:05 pm »
0

<a href=http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111101-161052-56b103fd.html>Game One</a> was obviously a Duke board, but I allowed Max the initiative with two unanswered Duke buys on turns five and six.  I bought Mandarin and Hoard instead, and lost the game.

<a href=http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111101-161647-10fab0c6.html>Game Two</a> was a joat/bm snorefest.  I didn't adorn the deck and won on turns.

<a href=http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111101-162349-2eec91b9.html>Game Three</a> was a mirror match that Max won on turns.

<a href=http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111101-163356-7f50c1f9.html>Game Four</a>, finally divergent strategies.  Max played Tunnel, and I played Bishop/Expand.  Despite gaining a total of <i>sixteen Golds</i>, Max had trouble getting them grouped together and I broke the PPR and won.

<a href=http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111101-163759-07fae356.html>Game Five</a> was an Envoy BMU mirror.  For some reason I bought a Mining Village instead of Envoy and used it for a turn three Gold, and the shuffle-luck gods smiled on me as I never had less than $5 after the turn four Envoy buy.  Got lucky, and won a game out of position.  3-2.

<a href=http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111101-164526-e8bfe326.html>Game Six</a> Max pushed the Province pile before he had a strong grip on the game, and I snuck out a win after trailing all game.

Thanks for the games, dude.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2011, 03:54:57 am by Mean Mr Mustard »
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Jake <a href=http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201203/17/game-20120317-030206-6456f97c.html>opening: opening: Silver / Jack of All Trades</a>
<b>IsoDom1 Winner:  shark_bait
IsoDom2 Winner: Rabid
Isodom3 Winner: Fabian</b>
Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalie ar Atanatári, Utúlie'n auré!

Anon79

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 1
« Reply #30 on: November 03, 2011, 12:06:30 am »
0

Game 3: I don't understand this game! I would think that fool's gold strategy would be DREADFUL here. I wasn't sure whether I wanted to have steward first and then a courtyard, or go straight BM/Courtyard. With his strategy, I figured I'd win easily either way, but... well, I do think he got somewhat lucky to prosecute his first-turn advantage like this, but I'm impressed he was even able to do that. I just don't get how that can be competitive, but it clearly can be.
Bazaar, Courtyard, Duchess, Fool's Gold, Harem, Mandarin, Noble Brigand, Remodel, Steward, and Thief

Interesting - I thought this board has everything Fool's Gold (FG) needs to be strong. No +buys, and the only +Actions comes in the form of +2 Actions on the $5 Bazaar, so no early Action chains. Absence of +buys kind of hurts Harem, which becomes more of a consolation prize after Provinces. We do have a gain in the form of Remodel, but the FG player is getting Remodels anyway to turn Coppers into FG early. Light trashing in the form of Steward allows the FG player to get rid of the extra Estates and Coppers. No attacks except Thief hurt the FG deck, and thieving FGs is pretty useless unless the opponent is going FG too. Mandarin and Courtyard allow the FG player to place unused or excessive FG's back on the deck for the next turn. Also, no obvious fast BM+ engine, except maybe Courtyard-BM which isn't that fast.

All-in-all, quite a strong FG board I thought, especially with that Remodel - might even work out well when an FG is turned into a Gold on top of the deck. Curious to find out your reasoning why FG might have been weak.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 1
« Reply #31 on: November 03, 2011, 11:07:31 am »
0

Had some really good games with PSUump/PSUmvp. I ended up winning 4-3.

Game 1: PSUmvp 40 - 11 Jimmmmm
Game 2: PSUmvp 51 - 36 Jimmmmm
Game 3: PSUmvp 54 - 73 Jimmmmm
Game 4: PSUmvp 19 - 30 Jimmmmm
Game 5: PSUmvp 143 - 49 Jimmmmm
Game 6: PSUmvp 35 - 46 Jimmmmm
Game 7: PSUmvp 30 - 48 Jimmmmm

In game 1, I wasn't sure how to deal with Tunnel being the Bane. He gave out 6 Curses to 1, got some early Golds then started getting Border Villages with Wharves and then some King's Courts, and finally bought out the rest of the Curses to win easily.

In game 2, I opened Trading Post/- and he opened Minion/-. He congratulated me for the better opening, then went on to win the game. His Minions were too good.

In game 3, I opened with Ambassador/- and he went with Treasury/- (we had identical starting hands). I then got a Spice Merchant and another Ambassador and won the Ambassador war easily.

Game 4 had Mountebanks, and was fairly even. I won by emptying the Nobles.

In game 5, he got his Goons and Villages together too quickly and demolished me. I may have started buying Coppers too early, although by that point I was being Goonsed just about every turn.

Game 6 had a bit going on with Smugglers, Contraband, Goons and Grand Market. I got into the Provinces quicker and managed a 5-3 split.

Game 7 was a Tournament game. I got the Followers and then he got the Trusty Steed. I then won the Duchy split 5-3 and went for Dukes, then emptied the Tournament pile.

Thanks to PSUmvp for playing, we both enjoyed the games.
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Festuca

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 1
« Reply #32 on: November 03, 2011, 12:54:15 pm »
0

Looks like WW's commentary sparked a whole commentary fest! That's great - a huge advantage to playing a tournament with people who are much better than me.

Game 1: Not having played a ton of Hinterlands, I wasn't really aware of how Silk Road would compare to Gardens in such a game, which is why I started with Gardens. I suppose I could have realized it considering what a fast game it would be, but I'll blame the first-match-jitters. Most interesting was WW's comment about my not playing the Inn - I can't really explain why I did that. Probably since, with three Ironworks in hand, I wanted to be able to play two of them for Gardens. Regardless, I can see how this was likely a mistake.

Game 2: I did have a bit of bad chapel luck at the start, but my luck the rest of the game was nothing to complain about. My big lesson from this (and game 7) was that Swindler is better than I think. I tried to pick one up later in the game to do some damage control, but by then it was too late (and of course it got swindled, making it way too late).

Game 3: Fools Gold is one of the few Hinterlands cards that I have some experience with. Like Anon79 said, with Steward and Remodel, I thought this strategy had a chance of being fast enough. Curious: If you were planning on going some BM variant, how come you didn't take a gold or two before starting on the Harems?

Game 4: This game was a convincing argument in Merchant Ship's favour. I was trying to go some sort of Festival Rabble, but it was obviously too slow, and also, Lighthouse.

Game 5: This was a cool game with lots going on. I thought Tactician was going to be good here, considering there was so much virtual money in the form of Black Market and Horse Traders. I have to apologize for that last Province buy - I thought I was ahead, but I wasn't super confident, so I just bought it. WW was a very good sport about my bad counting.

Game 6: Can you tell me why the Tribute was going to be strong here? I have to admit that I just picked mine up for lack of a better 5 cost.

Game 7: As WW rather tactfully put, I didn't play very well here. Very interesting Swindler comment, that there's something bad at all price levels. That's not something I've ever thought about but it seems like an obvious thing to consider when you're deciding whether to buy Swindler. Cool, I learned something!

Again, thanks to WW for the fun games and thoughtful commentary.

Quote
She buys the Inn
Fixed :)

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theParty

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 1
« Reply #33 on: November 03, 2011, 04:50:12 pm »
0

theParty won 4-2 over WrathofGlod/Michael Harris.  Close games all around and fairly well played I thought (save for a huge mental error in game 2 by me).

I am missing a log for some reason, but here they are, save the 5th game:

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/03/game-20111103-121342-9adbb7d0.html - Bishop and Hoard were the key cards for both of us, and both were strengthened by Harem.  I felt like I was in the hole with the 5/2 opening and purchasing bishop/courtyard instead of my preferred silver/bishop, but looking back, i may open that again with a 4/3.  The swindler was a horrible move, and was essentially a dead card for me the entire game.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/03/game-20111103-122415-33a6b015.html - KC/GM game.  I was ahead, primarily because I invested in markets to have something to KC.  Once both our engines got going, I was slightly ahead.  I added wrong on turn 20, and almost bought out the piles......He ended the game next turn.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/03/game-20111103-123823-1642c30d.html - a slogfest, familiar game.  Not much to comment here, though I'd be curious if someone has a different strategy on this board, or would you try to get ahead and 3 pile like we did....

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/03/game-20111103-125514-0414e58c.html - This was the most interesting kingdom I thought that we drew.  Colony game.  Goons, Grand Market, Sabatouer (which plays heavily in ours), Possession, and NV were the key cards, with almost every card supporting in some way.  He actually Sabatuers my early possession, and then when he gets a possession later, possesses the only Colony had I've had all game.  Felt lucky to get out of there with a win after that turn of events.  I purchased more on my double goons turns, which I think was the difference in the game.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/03/game-20111103-132317-6e18d393.html - this last game was very similar to the game before it (log is missing), in that the obvious strategy was to use council room (or governor in the previous game) to get a large hand, then ghost ship the opponents hand down.  I opened 5/2 which gave me a big advantage here.  In the post game wrap, we both agreed that loan/masq. was a bad opener, and would have passed on the loan next time.


Would love to hear any thoughts for people who actually look at the logs.....
 
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dondon151

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 1
« Reply #34 on: November 03, 2011, 08:15:33 pm »
0

Game 6: Can you tell me why the Tribute was going to be strong here? I have to admit that I just picked mine up for lack of a better 5 cost.

I'd like to know this too. I generally avoid Tribute due to how unreliable it is, but I suspect that in your game, with the prevalence of BM, Tribute is probably going to usually hit VP cards or Treasures, both of which are beneficial for a BM strategy.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 1
« Reply #35 on: November 03, 2011, 09:14:29 pm »
0

Game 6: Can you tell me why the Tribute was going to be strong here? I have to admit that I just picked mine up for lack of a better 5 cost.

I'd like to know this too. I generally avoid Tribute due to how unreliable it is, but I suspect that in your game, with the prevalence of BM, Tribute is probably going to usually hit VP cards or Treasures, both of which are beneficial for a BM strategy.
Bingo. In BM mirrors, it's really good, because it usually gives you either $4 or $2 and 2 cards, both of which are amazingly good in a BM deck

DG

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 1
« Reply #36 on: November 03, 2011, 09:28:46 pm »
+1

Quote
a slogfest, familiar game.  Not much to comment here, though I'd be curious if someone has a different strategy on this board, or would you try to get ahead and 3 pile like we did....
Moats?
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theParty

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 1
« Reply #37 on: November 04, 2011, 12:32:23 pm »
0

Quote
a slogfest, familiar game.  Not much to comment here, though I'd be curious if someone has a different strategy on this board, or would you try to get ahead and 3 pile like we did....
Moats?

The reason I ignored moats were primarily because I didn't want them to draw my familiars dead, and because of how fast the curses are typically given out in a familiar game, then the moat becomes a real liability.  If i never play it, I've essentially given myself a curse in terms of dead card).  If my moat blocks his familiar, it's +1 curse for me, but if my moat draws my familiar dead, it's the same result the other way.  DG - are you saying you would grab the moats in this kingdom if it's obvious that your opponent is going familiar? 

I think I'm just not a huge fan of reaction cards, except watchtower.  Probably to a fault, as I think I overlook them.
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chwhite

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 1
« Reply #38 on: November 04, 2011, 12:47:58 pm »
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I think I'm just not a huge fan of reaction cards, except watchtower.  Probably to a fault, as I think I overlook them.

Moat and Secret Chamber are for sure overlookable, I try to buy them as little as possible. Not technically a Reaction, but Lighthouse is more-or-less straight up better than Silver when Attacks are around, so it's worth getting a bunch.  The others are all situationally useful but more for the benefit they provide your deck than for Attack defense.  Among cards that say "Reaction" on them, I think Tunnel is now usually the strongest, though Watchtower definitely used to hold that title.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2011, 12:55:22 pm by chwhite »
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To discard or not to discard?  That is the question.

DG

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 1
« Reply #39 on: November 04, 2011, 12:50:46 pm »
0

Quote
The reason I ignored moats were primarily because I didn't want them to draw my familiars dead, and because of how fast the curses are typically given out in a familiar game, then the moat becomes a real liability


When you consider the chances of the moat being good (opponent has a familiar in a five card hand) compared to it being bad (your familiar is in two cards on top of your deck) then the odds are in the moats favour. You can improve that further by watching your draw deck. More than that, you might be only looking at the bad consequences and not the good. The tribute doesn't attack you by turning over the top two cards of your deck. The moat will at worst cycle the top two cards and you may even be able to spend them too.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2011, 12:57:04 pm by DG »
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theParty

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 1
« Reply #40 on: November 04, 2011, 01:34:00 pm »
0

I think I'm just not a huge fan of reaction cards, except watchtower.  Probably to a fault, as I think I overlook them.

Moat and Secret Chamber are for sure overlookable, I try to buy them as little as possible. Not technically a Reaction, but Lighthouse is more-or-less straight up better than Silver when Attacks are around, so it's worth getting a bunch.  The others are all situationally useful but more for the benefit they provide your deck than for Attack defense.  Among cards that say "Reaction" on them, I think Tunnel is now usually the strongest, though Watchtower definitely used to hold that title.

Yes - I put lighthouse in a different category (duration), though obviously it has that same effect.  Tunnel is interesting, and probably should be one of the forthcoming extended posts.  I absolutely love how it changes games where militia is the obvious opener.
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theParty

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 1
« Reply #41 on: November 04, 2011, 01:36:28 pm »
0

Quote
The reason I ignored moats were primarily because I didn't want them to draw my familiars dead, and because of how fast the curses are typically given out in a familiar game, then the moat becomes a real liability


When you consider the chances of the moat being good (opponent has a familiar in a five card hand) compared to it being bad (your familiar is in two cards on top of your deck) then the odds are in the moats favour. You can improve that further by watching your draw deck. More than that, you might be only looking at the bad consequences and not the good. The tribute doesn't attack you by turning over the top two cards of your deck. The moat will at worst cycle the top two cards and you may even be able to spend them too.


Yeah - I thought about that.  I don't run any simulations, so I don't really know what the numbers would say.  You're probably right though - moat might have swung that game even more towards me.
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 1
« Reply #42 on: November 04, 2011, 04:47:05 pm »
0

Arranged to play Cayvie at 8PM GMT today but he hasn't turned up after waiting for 45 minutes. PM me to arrange another time please?
« Last Edit: November 04, 2011, 06:54:25 pm by Thisisnotasmile »
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philosophyguy

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 1
« Reply #43 on: November 04, 2011, 08:33:35 pm »
0

Just wanted to say that I appreciate the players talking about their thoughts on strategy in these games…it's very helpful for us players who still have a lot to learn! Thank you, and I hope you keep sharing.
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painted_cow

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 1
« Reply #44 on: November 05, 2011, 12:25:52 pm »
0

I have no problem of sharing my knowledge of course, and I also do it with kind of joy. But I try to do this after the whole series. I mean it would be dumb to tell my opponent a trick, which he maybe can use in the next matches against me and  make me lose :-)

When playing automatch I ll tell them immediately of course.
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Geronimoo

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rspeer

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 1
« Reply #46 on: November 05, 2011, 02:01:20 pm »
+1

Well, I just had my ass handed to me by Geronimoo. I kind of expected this, looking at his recent win rate, but I could have hoped to win at least once. One might have also expected that a match between two simulator programmers would involve a whole lot of rushing for victory cards.

Nope on both counts. Every game except the last was about engines, and Geronimoo won them 4-0.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/05/game-20111105-093846-fd26f4ca.html - Clearly a high-randomness game. I decide there's no good combos on the board and open Silver / Black Market. Geronimoo does the same, but I think he came to a different conclusion about the combos.

The first thing I pull out of the black market is a Witch. Geronimoo says "gg I guess :(". But he starts building up a Hamlet/Envoy engine, aided by Horn of Plenty, something that had seemed too fickle to me when I looked at it. A few turns later, Black Market karma gets equalized when he pulls out a Mountebank.

The attack cards seem kind of insignificant compared to what happens next. Geronimoo ramps up his engine really quickly, and he's drawing most of his deck every turn with hamlets and envoys. He also gets a King's Court out of the market to rub it in. The game ends with him playing 6 Horns of Plenty to get the remaining 6 provinces.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/05/game-20111105-095844-fa701580.html - A really interesting board, with fishing villages, talismans, tunnels, and lots of ways to discard. We both open Talisman/Woodcutter, an opening I'm pretty sure I've never played or seen before.

The tunnels turn out to be relevant for the VP, not for the gold. Only one province is bought in the game, and that was by Geronimoo, who was discarding tunnels later than me.

I had a chance here if I had paid attention to the timing of the endgame. But I gave him the opportunity he needed to buy out a pile and beat me by 2 points.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/05/game-20111105-101411-1af09876.html - My plan is to ramp up to Stables quickly, and then Worker's Village+Envoy could give me lots of fodder for Stables. With $4 to open, that means I open Envoy/Silver (definitely not opening with a village). Geronimoo surprises me by opening Swindler/Swindler.

There are tournaments and grand markets on the board, too. Geronimoo points out that Envoy sucks at getting grand markets, which is true, but I had planned to overcome that with sheer drawing power.

Indeed, he gets to Grand Markets first, and my Horse Traders do not discourage his relentless swindling (which turns my Stable fuel into curses). I get Provinces and Tournaments first but they never matter, as the game is over shortly afterward.

Finally: http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/05/game-20111105-103053-05febcbd.html. This game has Young Witch, Grand Market, and Possession in it. The bane is Develop.

I have a $5/$2 opening, and I decide I want a Wharf before a Young Witch. Perhaps from seeing a fallacious trend in complex decks winning the last three games, I have formulated this plan: I'll get the Wharf now and pick up a Young Witch next time through the deck, and a Develop when I can, because not only is that a Bane, it can actually serve its intended purpose -- if it shows up with my Wharf, it can stack a Grand Market and a Young Witch on the deck.

You'll notice that this plan involves getting three terminals at the start of the game. And two of them draw cards, and the other one is Develop. Yeah.

Geronimoo gets two YWs, gives me most of the curses, pulls off the Develop->Grand Market trick before I do, and quickly shuts me out on victory points.

Geronimoo played all these games pretty much perfectly, and I didn't. I'd be tempted to say he was like a machine -- but machines don't come up with these kinds of engines... yet.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2011, 02:04:57 pm by rspeer »
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Geronimoo

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 1
« Reply #47 on: November 06, 2011, 06:18:04 am »
0

Thanks rspeer for some great games! You were a good sport despite the ass handing :)

Here's my take on the games:
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111105-093846-fd26f4ca.html
I immediately see the Envoy/Hamlet-Horn combo and enough different playable cards to get the Horns up to $8 when I go for my massive turn. Black Market isn't really necessary, but I see there are some nice cards in the Market (Mountebank, Witch, KC) and I follow rspeer's lead. He pulls the first attacker (Witch) and in my mind it's pretty much over, but I get a Mountebank soon after and start to build my engine while my opponent buys a Gold each turn. The curses are a little annoying, but Envoy draws enough cards to further build up. King's Court appears out of the Black Market and me and rspeer both know this game will be over soon. Two turns later I draw my entire deck, play 6 Horns (all worth $13) and clear out the Provinces. I thank this victory to the work I put in creating the "Plenty Horny" bot in my simulator where I found out that it's a very strong engine which will easily beat most Big Money strategies.

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111105-095844-fa701580.html
When I first saw the board it didn't really seem all that interesting: get Mountebanks as soon as possible, then buy an Inn each time my drawing deck is small and there are two Mountebanks in my discard. I'm thinking to open Silver/Silver to get to the attacker as fast as possible, but then rspeer opens Talisman and hey that seems cool, so I follow suit (sometimes I like to have a little fun playing this game). And while I'm at it, I also copy his Woodcutter buy. He goes on to buy a Lookout which I know from simulations to be a horrible horrible card if you're going big money (not in engines!). It will also delay him to get to the Mountebanks. I get two Fishing Villages in my turn thanks to Talisman (probably would have been better off with Silvers). As expected I buy the first Mountebank and soon after the second followed by the Inn-buy to get the dreaded double Mountebank turn which is pretty much game over. rspeer in the meanwhile is trying to get his Tunnels lined up with his discarders, but my relentless Mountebanking makes it a lot harder. I'm able to finish on piles with a comfortable lead. I did miss the Lookout/Tunnel interaction, but I still think it's far inferior to the Mountebank plan.

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111105-101411-1af09876.html
The key cards here are Envoy, Grand Market and Tournament. Envoy gets really bad when you start to add other action cards, so if you go for it, you should probably just stick to treasures and race the Provinces. There is one other card on this board which I really love (probably a bit too much) and that's Swindler. I can turn his Silvers into Loans and his Envoy/Tournament into Thief or Worker's Village; $5 will become Duchies and Grand Markets boring old Gold. So I go for the double Swindler. I get a little lucky hitting 2 Coppers with them and he gets a few Horse Traders to defend. They are great at getting the money for Grand Market, but his Envoy has now become a very bad card in his deck. He tries to solve the problem by buying Worker Villages, but that card is just awful when you're not building a dedicated engine. He gets a 10-point lead, but my Grand Markets and his conflicting cards allow me to win despite Swindling his Province into a Province when I was still behind. He did make a mistake in the end game of buying a Gold over Duchy when there were only 4 Provinces left.

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111105-103053-05febcbd.html
First job is always to look for the attackers and Young Witch is very very good if people choose to ignore it which is pretty much what my opponent does by opening Wharf instead of YW. I get a second Witch soon after and start to unload the Curses. After that I buy mainly treasure and get to do the neat little trick of Developing a Venture into a Grand Market and a Potion on top of my deck for a very probable Possession buy. I always have a pretty big lead this game and there's no real way for him to get back.

GGs!
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painted_cow

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 1
« Reply #48 on: November 07, 2011, 02:18:45 pm »
0

How long do we wait for that single remaining pairing?
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 1
« Reply #49 on: November 07, 2011, 02:42:53 pm »
0

Yeah, sorry about that. As I said, I turned up at the arranged time and waited for 45 minutes. Cayvie did not turn up and has not PMed me since or posted here, I have no idea if (s)he's even been on this site since then.

Edit: According to his/her profile, (s)he was last active on November 03, 2011, 06:19:44 am. Don't know if that's forum time, their time, or my time, but it's 4 days ago either way.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2011, 02:48:51 pm by Thisisnotasmile »
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Buggz

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 1
« Reply #50 on: November 07, 2011, 02:51:30 pm »
0

It should be forum time, which means your time if you've chosen your time zone in your preferences/settings.
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 1
« Reply #51 on: November 07, 2011, 03:00:37 pm »
0

I have. So they were last on at 6AM Thursday GMT (that's 1AM EST so it's actually Wednesday night).
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painted_cow

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 1
« Reply #52 on: November 07, 2011, 04:52:11 pm »
0

Imho you should get a "Bye" (=free win in non magic terms) awarded, that we can go on with Round 2, without further delay for all participants.
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Geronimoo

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 1
« Reply #53 on: November 07, 2011, 05:40:55 pm »
0

Imho you should get a "Bye" (=free win in non magic terms) awarded, that we can go on with Round 2, without further delay for all participants.
agree!
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Buggz

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 1
« Reply #54 on: November 07, 2011, 06:50:41 pm »
0

I agree, MMM specifically stated a time frame during which you were to pull off a session with your opponent. If you don't show up you forfeit.
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DG

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 1
« Reply #55 on: November 07, 2011, 07:12:33 pm »
0

I'd suggest starting the next round, give the outstanding match until Wednesday to be completed and then try to catch up on the draw within the time available. If that part of the draw can't catch up, just give them some leeway until they do.
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Mean Mr Mustard

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 1
« Reply #56 on: November 07, 2011, 10:48:34 pm »
0

Okay, I missed Jim's win over PSU.  We are starting Round 2.  Good luck, and please post your results by Tuesday, November 15.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2011, 11:00:03 pm by Mean Mr Mustard »
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Jake <a href=http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201203/17/game-20120317-030206-6456f97c.html>opening: opening: Silver / Jack of All Trades</a>
<b>IsoDom1 Winner:  shark_bait
IsoDom2 Winner: Rabid
Isodom3 Winner: Fabian</b>
Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalie ar Atanatári, Utúlie'n auré!

Mean Mr Mustard

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 2
« Reply #57 on: November 07, 2011, 11:01:00 pm »
0

Round One results:
<b>North Conference</b>
<b>1. shark_bait (1)</b>
vs
<s>8. Buggz (32)</s>

<b>6.perdhapley (24)</b>
vs
<s>4. Lionel (14)</s>

<b>2. DG ( 8 )</b>
vs
<s>7. pst (27)</s>

<s>5. mad max (17)</s>
vs
<b>3. Mean Mr Mustard (11)</b>

<b>South Conference</b>

<b>1. califax (4)</b>
vs
<s>8. Glooble (29)</s>

<s>6. michaelharris (21)</s>
vs
<b>4. theParty (15)</b>

<b>2. ehunt (5)</b>
vs
<s>7. pops (28)</s>

<b>5. thisisnotasmile (18)</b>
vs
<s>3. cayvie (12)</s>

<b>East Conference</b>

<b>1. Wandering Winder (2)</b>
vs
<s>8. Festuca (30)</s>

<s>6. mergus (22)</s>
vs
<b>4. Lekkit (16)</b>

<s>2. mith (6)</s>
vs
<b>7. WallyNate (25)</b>

<b>5. Dstu (19)</b>
vs
<s>3. michaeljb (9)</s>

<b>West Conference</b>

<b>1. painted_cow (3)</b>
vs
<s>8. Qvist (31)</s>

<s>6. rspeer (25)</s>
vs
<b>4. geronimoo (13)</b>

<s>2. PSUmvp (7)</s>
vs
<b>7. Jimmmmm (26)</b>

<s>5. greatexpectations (20)</s>
vs
<b>3. Rabid (10)</b>
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Jake <a href=http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201203/17/game-20120317-030206-6456f97c.html>opening: opening: Silver / Jack of All Trades</a>
<b>IsoDom1 Winner:  shark_bait
IsoDom2 Winner: Rabid
Isodom3 Winner: Fabian</b>
Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalie ar Atanatári, Utúlie'n auré!

rspeer

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 2
« Reply #58 on: November 08, 2011, 02:13:43 am »
+2

After losing so hard in the Simulator Series, I'll be watching to see the results of its exciting followup: Cow vs. Moo.
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DStu

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 2
« Reply #59 on: November 10, 2011, 02:40:25 am »
+1

DStu - WallyNate : 4-2

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111109-150914-44d74325.html
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111109-152028-c8015d10.html
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111109-152619-ab817f3a.html
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111109-153444-ecf7d0c3.html
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111109-154205-813bccd7.html
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111109-160448-9de0e815.html

I won the first one, which was a Chapel/Ghostship where perhaps both of us went green a little too early for a smooth game, so it took quite long for a Chapel game and ended on piles Duchy/Estate/Nobles.
The next two WallyMate won. The second game was SeaHagging, he want for 2 Hags, I for one, with cycling assistence from Stables/Caravans vs Caravans. The split went 7/3, so his decision was certainly better. Stables are also better to collide the Fool's Golds.
The third is Masquerade/Hoard vs. Rabble/Hoard, the Masquerade won.
The last three games I won again.
The fourth is two Witches without trashing, with Curses splitted 5/5, assisted by Stables(WallyNate) and Stables/Embassady and WVillages. I think Embassady is a strong drawer here, because there's so much to discard. Not sure if the Villages really helped or if Silvers would have been better. I also had much more Golds, which maybe was more important than the Villages.
The fifth I tried to counter Ambassador with JoaT, it worked here, not sure if that's really a good idea. But it was late (for me) and I didn't want to get into an Ambassador-tennismatch.
The sixth one I tried KC-Wharf-HoP, it really felt like not running well, but as it is in such games you should not complain early, as on good turn is enough to win. After (at least felt) turns of turns of drawing KC dead with Wharfs, or without anything, or with boring Tournaments, or cycled away by Minions (did someone say you should not complain....?), and also after I already buyed a Colony out of desperation, I finally managed to KC-KC-Wharf and that was enough.

So thanks again WallyNate for the games, that where really interesting ones.

edit: iso->cr
« Last Edit: November 10, 2011, 12:41:59 pm by DStu »
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WallyNate

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 2
« Reply #60 on: November 10, 2011, 12:00:09 pm »
+1

Thanks for the games, DStu!  My Comments:

Game 1:  I got hosed pretty early by shuffle luck.  DStu was able to buy a ghost ship and trash all his estates by turn 5, whereas I got $4, $4, and chapel with 4 coppers on turns 3-5.  I'd like to think I put up a valiant struggle after that, but I got beat pretty soundly.

Game 2:  My stables did a better job of cycling than his caravans and my expands helped me get a few extra provinces.

Game 3:  I think masquerade was the stronger choice here, as I find rabble to be weak early game, especially since it helped my own cycling.

Game 4:  I avoided the walled villages because I had so many stables that they probably wouldn't stay on top much.  I also avoided another drawer like embassy since I would've had so many stables and dead cards, though in retrospect, it would've been good to have a heavier drawer.  I was trying to make due with stables, but in the end it wasn't enough.

Game 5:  I probably should've gone heavier on giving him coppers and getting rid of my own, but I had too many tempting buys instead of giving away 2 coppers.

Game 6:  I got an early lead, then squandered it by greening too early, and going for an unfocused approach of minion/wharf/tournament.  I should've tried to end it earlier, but I got complacent with my lead, and fell victim to DStu's mega-turn.
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Mean Mr Mustard

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 2
« Reply #61 on: November 10, 2011, 12:19:09 pm »
0

DG won our match in game 8, winning the last two games from position two.  I will post a breakdown when CR refreshes.  Congrats, man!
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Jake <a href=http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201203/17/game-20120317-030206-6456f97c.html>opening: opening: Silver / Jack of All Trades</a>
<b>IsoDom1 Winner:  shark_bait
IsoDom2 Winner: Rabid
Isodom3 Winner: Fabian</b>
Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalie ar Atanatári, Utúlie'n auré!

DG

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 2
« Reply #62 on: November 10, 2011, 01:43:50 pm »
+1

Mr Mustard was playing quite mean and had really done enough to go through. I've got the game logs and I'm just missing a possession game where our kind organiser built a good three province deal while I collected possessions. He then went green and I changed tack to buy the remaining provinces for a very slow and tortuous win. In the last hand he was set up perhaps by a 5/2 start that seemed to have only one way to play it, again gave him a good lead, then had nowhere to go when the saboteurs hit.

MMM 37 : 13 DG http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/10/game-20111110-081328-cf663c5a.html
MMM 33 : 21 DG http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/10/game-20111110-075903-2d67a1f2.html
MMM 35 : 35 DG http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/10/game-20111110-081817-deddc593.html
MMM 51 : 76 DG http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/10/game-20111110-083444-96d89511.html
MMM 33 : 23 DG http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/10/game-20111110-084132-ab7c722f.html
MMM XX : 18 DG http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/10/game-20111110-085056-d44e84eb.html
MMM 56 : 58 DG http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/10/game-20111110-091601-625cc79e.html
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Geronimoo

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 2
« Reply #63 on: November 10, 2011, 03:34:37 pm »
+2

Geronimoo 4 - painted_cow 2

I rushed to a 3-0 lead, but my opponent didn't go on tilt and played the next two games perfectly to climb back to 3-2. Then he opened $5/$2 in a Familiar game and suddenly it was all over…

The boards were mostly in my favor with little trashing, no real engines and especially ... DUKES!!

Me 37 : 34 cow http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111109-114351-a4e526af.html
We both have the same idea to race to Tactician, then Bank which combo quite nicely (how about double Province turn 9?). He says we could let the simulator play this, but to my surprise I've never simulated this before. We both have identical turns for a while but after the double Province turn we both clog up pretty hard instead of finishing the game in a hurry. I buy a second Bank to get to the last Province (although it was probably just random luck).

Me 49 : 43 cow http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111109-115321-6de96dd0.html
Hunting Party is an engine all on its own, but I’ve got my eye on another $5 coster: Duke. I build my economy up to one Gold and start on the Duchies. My opponent lets me get 5 of them which is pretty much game over despite his Hunting Parties. He admitted that he underrated the Duchie/Duke strategy on this board which was helped a lot by the Feasts.

Me 38 : 28 cow http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111109-120330-aa2f62a0.html
Another board with Duke, so I veto the Grand Market to prevent my opponent from racing with Provinces (which was going to be difficult anyway with the Sea Hags). Simulations had shown me that Scheme/Sea Hag was 5% better than Silver/Sea Hag, so I knew I had a slight edge after our opening buys. I deal out 6 Curses and get a Haggler while my opponent goes for Jester. I think I like Haggler a little more here because I can buy Duchy+Silver to keep going while Jester is mostly a small nuisance once the Curses are gone. Again I’m first at the Duchies, but can’t get the majority this time. It doesn’t really matter because the 2 extra Curses are enough to keep my opponent on the back foot the entire game.

I’m 3-0 now and a little giddy…

Me 42 : 76 cow http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111109-121326-dc6618b0.html
DUKE!! Aw, he vetoes it  I veto Familiar of course (being second player).
Baron-Hunting Party is a little too obvious and even I see it. First player advantage kills me here. (Of course, p_c played it well by denying me the last two Hunting Parties)

Me 25 : 32 cow http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111109-122248-a2274c58.html
The first board that has engine possibilities and I veto the wrong card (Salvager instead of Steward). P_c builds his engine like a true master, but my Venture/Courtyard opening is nothing to sneeze at either and this brutal game ends in 13 turns!! I had $8 turn 5 but only 2 Ventures by then, so I bought another Venture first. Was this a a mistake, should I have bought Gold or Province?? P_c needed to break the PPR to win this game and got a little lucky because I reshuffled into 0 Ventures on my last turn (I had 6 of them). He played this really really tight (like you’d expect from a lvl 46). His engine was very thin, but an Island prevented him from clogging up.

Me 34 : 23 cow http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111109-123609-baf8d6bc.html
He vetoes my Jack, so I veto his Conspirator.
He gets the unlucky $5/$2 opening with Familiar on the board. We go into entirely different directions after getting the Familiar: I go full on money, while he tries to get a Scrying Pool engine going, but Lookout is quite weak and Trader filled his deck with Silvers. Farmland allows me to do some nice stuff and I have a comfortable VP lead the entire game.

Thanks again to painted_cow for his sportsmanship and I’m looking forward to crushing another lvl +45’s dreams by means of that most powerful of cards: SILVER.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2011, 03:37:44 pm by Geronimoo »
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chwhite

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 2
« Reply #64 on: November 10, 2011, 03:46:22 pm »
+1

Geronimoo 4 - painted_cow 2

I rushed to a 3-0 lead, but my opponent didn't go on tilt and played the next two games perfectly to climb back to 3-2. Then he opened $5/$2 in a Familiar game and suddenly it was all over…

The boards were mostly in my favor with little trashing, no real engines and especially ... DUKES!!

Games like these are exactly why Duke tends to be my #3 veto priority after Jack and Envoy.  If I was in p_c's spot you'd be playing with Duke zero times. :P
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To discard or not to discard?  That is the question.

painted_cow

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 2
« Reply #65 on: November 10, 2011, 04:39:22 pm »
+2

This damn Dukes :-) But I have to say, that Geronimoo played this series really tight, as I never saw an obvious mistake (excluding different playstyle or strategy ofc).

Game 1: I made 2 mistakes here, 1st not banning Bank, 2nd not gaining second Bank with 16 $ after first big Tactician-turn.
Game 2 and 3. Its all about Dukes and I rarely play them myself. After the games Geronimoo said, that Dukes are dominant on most boards. After this series I really have to think about this. I even looked my stats on Councilroom with Dukes. At least it says, that I am way better when ignoring them.

To the Sea Hag-Silver vs Sea Hag-Scheme. Ofc I didnt know the Simulator data, as I also dont trust them too much, I think the Silver is good at getting Jester first. The plan was to win the Curse-race by it (like Scheme) and giving me more cash meanwhile. It didnt pay out  ;)

Game4: I won this with first player advantage and a fast Platinum. Like game 1 this matchup was pure luck depended, since we both did the same obvious strategy.
Game5:  After colliding with my 2 Stewards the game progressed really fast. When Geronimoo bought pre-pre-last? Province I had to brake PPR, but I thought, that his 6 Ventures were in discard and he didnt have a reshuffle after it. As I see now I was mistaken, cause the reshuffle was triggered in one of those Ventures and I didnt recognise it :o
Game6: Well, 5-2 in Familiar games  :-[

In conclusion I can say, that his advance was deserved, as the matchups were very clear most of the time and no real chance for some tricky engines. Dukes cemented his victory safely. Well played Geronimoo
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ehunt

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 2
« Reply #66 on: November 11, 2011, 10:58:49 am »
+1

I advance 4-2 over thisisnotasmile, who was really fun to play against. we played six games as quickly as i remember playing six games ever, even with a couple colony games.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/11/game-20111111-071040-88b401cf.html
-i forego the bane of the young witch (watchtower), and this goes very badly for me, as there's no trashing.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/11/game-20111111-071554-179487f6.html
-my jack/jack strategy falls to tinas' swindler/jack strategy. i make the mistake of going for possession - even though jack helps me get it very early, the silvers keep me from playing it very often.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/11/game-20111111-072121-2bbe4c28.html
-i recognize a potential horn of plenty setup on the opening and veto accordingly. tinas goes for a more money-oriented strategy, and my horns go off in the nick of time (from my perspective.)

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/11/game-20111111-072510-a334022e.html
-another young witch game. the bane (xroads) goes well with a prominent strategy (workshop + silk road), so i decide to go for that strategy (i don't know if it's always right in colony games). tinas follows suit and the silk roads split 4/4, but i have more xroads and he has a gold and a silver. time is not on my side, since if he manages to afford a province, it will essentially be gg with the 7 coppers in my deck, but i get lucky and the game ends.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/11/game-20111111-073513-e673ec7e.html
-i think envoy/xroads is a great combo, which is weird, since the xroads tells your opponent exactly what's in your hand. with fishing village and ironworks, i build an army of cheap cards that does the job; it's a colony game and i never buy platinum. tinas goes for a province rush, but i wind up being able to afford colonies pretty quickly.


http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/11/game-20111111-074324-22d552cf.html
the infuriatingly arbitrary menagerie works out for me, thanks partly to moneylender, and i barely edge out tinas, who has a rabble engine and more money. i wonder if a single rabble + big money strategy would have beaten both of us - maybe not, since the competition for the nobles is what keeps either engine deck from going off.
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 2
« Reply #67 on: November 11, 2011, 10:59:11 am »
+1

ehunt 4 - 2 Thisisnotasmile

0-1 http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/11/game-20111111-071040-88b401cf.html
Not much to say about this one. Just a straightforward Young Witch game.

0-2 http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/11/game-20111111-071554-179487f6.html
I didn't want to go Double Jack here even though I probably should have. ehunt took a diversion for a Possession which I think was a mistake. I got lucky in my last turn Swindling his Province -> Province leaving only one, which allowed me to pick it up for the win.

1-2 http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/11/game-20111111-072121-2bbe4c28.html
Horn of Plenty shenanigans deserved this win.

2-2 http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/11/game-20111111-072510-a334022e.html
I went for Young Witch again when I saw ehunt open Workshop. I knew he was going to rush Silk Roads so I panicked and followed suit, killing my own deck in the process. I knew there was a curse in his deck and that we had split the Silk Roads evenly and had 1 Duchy each at the end so I ended it hoping the Curse would swing it for me. Guess I should have tracked the Estates too...

3-2 http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/11/game-20111111-073513-e673ec7e.html
In my quick notes to remind me how the games went I have written "5/2 killed me". I'm not sure that it did, but me not getting a 4/3 gave ehunt a huge headstart on the Fishing Village/Envoy engine and I didn't really feel it was worth me trying to catch up in that department. Instead I spent the game floundering around doing not much at all. I didn't deserve to win this, and I didn't win it, so all is fine.

4-2 http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/11/game-20111111-074324-22d552cf.html
Close game all the way through here. I was player 1, tied on score with 2 Provinces left on turn 20. I bought the Province knowing I'd tie at worst this turn. ehunt got a Duchy and I failed to get to even $5 to keep the pressure on. It was all over after that. Probably should have bought a Province earlier when I had a couple of $8 hands and bought Nobles. Ah well.

It was a pleasure to play with you ehunt. Thanks for the games and good luck for the rest of the tournament.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2011, 11:01:29 am by Thisisnotasmile »
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ehunt

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 2
« Reply #68 on: November 11, 2011, 11:00:26 am »
+1

@tinas ah we crossposted! let's see your perspective. thanks again for the games!
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ehunt

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 2
« Reply #69 on: November 11, 2011, 11:27:08 am »
0

@geronimoo what's your rationale for the xroads veto in your duke/hunting party win against painted_cow? it seems like a pretty good card for those terrible hands you get sometimes in a duke game, and a hunting party player wouldn't have time to pick one up (and would worry about it getting in the way) whereas you'll occasionally draw hands with 2 as soon as you start picking up duchies.
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Geronimoo

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 2
« Reply #70 on: November 11, 2011, 12:23:40 pm »
+1

I never play veto normally so I don't have a strategy for the vetoing. I just veto away cards I don't understand (yet).
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Mean Mr Mustard

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 2
« Reply #71 on: November 11, 2011, 09:17:00 pm »
0

Congrats are in order for Califax.  Nice job advancing.  Thanks to theParty for playing.
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Jake <a href=http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201203/17/game-20120317-030206-6456f97c.html>opening: opening: Silver / Jack of All Trades</a>
<b>IsoDom1 Winner:  shark_bait
IsoDom2 Winner: Rabid
Isodom3 Winner: Fabian</b>
Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalie ar Atanatári, Utúlie'n auré!

Reyk

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 2
« Reply #72 on: November 12, 2011, 05:31:31 am »
+1

I played some very interesting games with theParty and I'm glad I went through as my score against him was negative before the match. We played without veto, without point counter and without the "identical starting hands" option.

My comments on the games:

1) http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111111-122105-0d17f60e.html

A Minion/City game with Lookout and Salvager for trashing. I opened Woodcutter/Lookout as I didn't want Silver in the long run. But I can't play the Woodcutter before Minions early anyway because before City gaining there is obviously the Minion race going on. I would consider Lookout/Salvager or Salvager/Silver in hindsight too - I'm not sure.
theParty opened Salvager/Silver and won the Minion race 6-4. As a consolation I got a 6-4 City split after that.

The endgame was interesting with tough decisions regarding activating level 3 Cities in presence of accelerators like Salvager. I bought Haggler to gain some Salvager fodder on the way and in turn 15 had to go for the Duchies because I couldn't left only 2 Provinces.
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111111-122105-0d17f60e.html#califax-show-turn-15

For a moment I thought afterwards he could buy out five Salvagers and an Estate for a three pile ending as the score before this was 18-18. But as he trashed a Province on the way this wouldn't have been possible.

2) http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111111-124626-31961a63.html

A lot of things going on in this long game with Silk Road, Island, Vineyard and Black Market.
Mountebank and Young Witch in the Black Market pile with no trashing in the kingdom attracted me so that I risked a Cutpurse/Black Market terminal clash and got it with some more clashs later. I think I should have left out Cutpurse as Ghostship and the Cursers in Black Market are other important terminals with only Mining village and no plus buy present.
theParty opened Oasis/Island. How would you start here at 3/4?

In turn 4 I played the Black Market/Cutpurse/Copper/Copper/Estate hand wrongly (Black Market) to cycle the BM and maybe in hope for Young Witch (what if my 4$ would have met Mountebank there?). In consequence he got a Ghosthip which he couldn't have done if I had played Cutpurse instead.

Later there were interesting decisions, f. e. whether to go for Provinces at all. But as the plus buy cards from Black Market (Nomade Camp, Festival) appeared quite late Vineyards were never an option imho.

Probably he could have bought the last Curse earlier for a three pile ending but it wasn't easy to calculate the score.
Despite a 9-0 Curse split a derserved win for theParty. (The score graph on councilroom seems to be buggy)

3) http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111111-130255-6be97532.html

I used to play Apothecary/Market back in the old BSW days. Here is Scheme/Outpost for some support.
Maybe these chains can be improved somehow (I always put back Apothecary via Scheme. I played Apothecary always before Market/Scheme unless I knew there wasn't Copper/Potion in the next four cards due to a previous Apothecary. Not sure if this is right), but Apothecary/Outpost is already painfully slow to watch for the opponent - so no more time for AP. I guess I got lucky with the Market buy on turn 3. Later I thought about including a Gold but couldn't bring myself to do so. Not sure whether this is right or not.

TheParty in contrast bought some real money (Gold in turn 6,7), but missed his Market for more buys sometimes (turn 10 for instance).

4) http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111111-131151-a826c41d.html

With Chapel and Scrying Pool present it seems dangerous to ignore Bridge/Village completely. A Megaturn would overcome a 0-5 Province handicup but I managed to pull it off after 0-4 Provinces already.
If theParty could have taken away some Bridges without other plus buy sources the Megaturn strategy might backfire - I'm not sure on this either.

5) http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111111-132530-660b30ec.html

Was all about Goons with an interesting early decision at 4$ between Worker's Village or (second) Quarry (as Labs are also present).
I wasn't happy with 5-2 here and bought Governor over Lab as I thought to draw 3 cards later and than very often Goons to reduce his hand afterwards. But I helped him quite a bit at turn 3 and 6. I guess you have to delay the Governor.
So theParty had an advantage here, but maybe committed too early to Copper/Province for points at turn 10 and 14.


In conclusion I haven't bought a single Gold the whole match (Platinum wasn't available) and only 1 Silver (the others coming from Jack in game 2). So you see where I'm coming from (often doing that excessively and losing) and how I struggle lately with all these Hinterland cards (Jack, Crossroads, Trader, Stables, Tunnel and so on). Donald X. did a great job to bring back some love to Money and early greening and to force you to play universally. But in the setups present it was at least possible (even though maybe not always the strongest) to play the "old way".

Thx for the games.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 1
« Reply #73 on: November 12, 2011, 10:25:24 pm »
+1

Rabid wins 4-1

Game 1: Rabid 36 - 25 Jimmmmm
Game 2: Rabid 19 - 27 Jimmmmm
Game 3: Rabid 42 - 24 Jimmmmm
Game 4: Rabid 45 - 21 Jimmmmm
Game 5: Rabid 27 - 27 Jimmmmm
Game 6: Rabid 39 - 35 Jimmmmm

Game 1 was a boring Money game. I could have sworn I bought a Masquerade, but it turns out I didn't.

In Game 2, my buying a 2nd Witch allowed me to win the Curse split 8-2. Workshop -> Mining Village was pretty nice here.

Game 3 was very much a mirror match. Our decks at the end only differed by a single Silver and Victory cards. Rabid got the good draws with a turn 3 Gold, my first one coming in turn 8. We both played BM + Hunting Parties + 1 Smithy.

In Game 4, I totally missed the Adventurer/Tunnel combo. My plan was pretty much "Steward into Festivals + Highways". Then he bought an Adventurer and some Tunnels and I realised what he was up to, and panicked. I probably should have stuck to my plan, but I followed him on his Adventure through the Tunnels, and he won easily.

Game 5 was a quick mirror match with Fishing Villages and Remakes, and Rabid bought the last Province for a "shared victory".

In Game 6, we both went Moneylender and then Jester when we could. Then Rabid's Jester gave me 6 more Moneylenders. I don't know how I missed Trade Route, but by the time I realised it was there, it was too late. With the Duchies gone, victory was out of reach so I bought the last Province.

Thanks to Rabid for the games. We both had fun. We agreed that luck seemed to be on his side, but I'll happily say that he was also the better player.
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Rabid

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 2
« Reply #74 on: November 13, 2011, 08:35:03 am »
+1

Thanks for the games Jimmmmm, was fun, luck was certainly on my side.

Rabid wins 4-1-1

Game 1: Masq, beats caravan, boring game.

Game 2: No idea what I was thinking here, starting with workshop on a witch no trash board is terrible. my only chance was a sneaky early 3 pile, but Jimmmmm covered this well.

Game 3: My first lucky game: T7, T8, T9, T10 provinces from a deck of: 7C, 3E, 1Silver, 1G, 1Smithy, 3 HP. I think your best bet would have been to go Fairgrounds, as you can no longer win a prov race. But the chances of wining that are very low anyway.

Game 4: My Favourite game of the set. plan was steward away all copper.
Use festival for virtual money, now adventurer hit all the tunnels for gold.
Now adventurer = $6 :)
Was a little on the slow side to set up, 1st prov on T13, but didn't green up at all, got 5 more prov over the next 5 turns.
Jimmmmm plan of highways really needed a draw 3 to work well I think.
But in general I think it is correct to stick with your plan in this situation.
If you start copying the opponents plan in midgame, you end up doing the same plan badly, which rarely wins. Unless you starting plan was terrible it is usually better to stick with it.

Game 5: Fast mirror match 13T. I got slightly lucky to escape with a draw here.

Game 6: Luck was certainly with me this game, I played my only jester 7 times in 21T never missed a reshuffle.
Rabid: Moneylender, Moneylender, Gold, Moneylender, Moneylender, Moneylender, Prov
Jimmm: Silver, Copper, Estate, Curse, Gold, Gold

Thanks for the games.

Rabid


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Jimmmmm

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 2
« Reply #75 on: November 13, 2011, 08:44:35 am »
0

Jimmmmm plan of highways really needed a draw 3 to work well I think.
But in general I think it is correct to stick with your plan in this situation.

Yeah, I was planning on getting a Stables or two and feeding Silvers to it. When you started getting Great Halls early on instead of Silvers, I figured it was to help you get similar Festival/Highway combos going, but it was a much more sneaky way of helping your Adventurers find your Tunnels (or rather, not hindering them).
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Lekkit

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 2
« Reply #76 on: November 14, 2011, 12:02:19 pm »
+1

I played my games agains WanderingWinder yesterday after some technical difficulties, and in a hurry, since he had to go somewhere. And the speed was in focus of my vetoing, not some tactical vetoing.

Game 1 - We both went for some Monumental extra VPs. I think I got a monstrous start and was able to win from there.
Game 2 - I went for Hunting Party, since I think it's generally too good to not play, while WW grabbed two Margraves. I had to break PPR, but WW didn't get the treasure he needed for the last Province.
Game 3 - WW played it cool and steamrolled with a double Tactician/Bridge-combo. I didn't think it was going to be that fast.
Game 4 - A really close game with a lot of counting from my side in the final round. In the end I decided to buy the last Province because I thought it would bag me the win.
Game 5 - I manage to get the first, but in a Tournament game the first Province matters more. And WW gets the first prize, which is Followers and it's an uphill battle from there.
Game 6 - Let this be a lesson to all players. Count the number of Duchies and Provinces you buy and do it good. I didn't, and it was probably what cost me the game. Besides WW accumulating more points at a higher rate than I did.
Game 7 - I'm not sure if it was my decision to go for a Quarry and not a Bishop or Silver that cost me the game. It could also be me buying a Labratory and not a Haggler with my first Quarry. Anyways, congratulations to WanderingWinder, and thank you for a nice set of games!

And for those of you who doesn't feel like counting or reading logs or my whole post. WanderingWinder beat me 4 wins to 3.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 2
« Reply #77 on: November 14, 2011, 03:39:25 pm »
+1

I played my games agains WanderingWinder yesterday after some technical difficulties, and in a hurry, since he had to go somewhere. And the speed was in focus of my vetoing, not some tactical vetoing.

Game 1 - We both went for some Monumental extra VPs. I think I got a monstrous start and was able to win from there.
Game 2 - I went for Hunting Party, since I think it's generally too good to not play, while WW grabbed two Margraves. I had to break PPR, but WW didn't get the treasure he needed for the last Province.
Game 3 - WW played it cool and steamrolled with a double Tactician/Bridge-combo. I didn't think it was going to be that fast.
Game 4 - A really close game with a lot of counting from my side in the final round. In the end I decided to buy the last Province because I thought it would bag me the win.
Game 5 - I manage to get the first, but in a Tournament game the first Province matters more. And WW gets the first prize, which is Followers and it's an uphill battle from there.
Game 6 - Let this be a lesson to all players. Count the number of Duchies and Provinces you buy and do it good. I didn't, and it was probably what cost me the game. Besides WW accumulating more points at a higher rate than I did.
Game 7 - I'm not sure if it was my decision to go for a Quarry and not a Bishop or Silver that cost me the game. It could also be me buying a Labratory and not a Haggler with my first Quarry. Anyways, congratulations to WanderingWinder, and thank you for a nice set of games!

And for those of you who doesn't feel like counting or reading logs or my whole post. WanderingWinder beat me 4 wins to 3.

Yeah, sorry about that. It was really annoying for me to have the bugs with my browser (I'm actually not even 100% there). I eventually had to play from a backup browser, and there were really small issues with some of the text overlapping, though I could always tell what it was supposed to be, and it ended up not being a factor in my play. I don't think being rushed affected me either, though I was keenly aware of it, and I hope it wasn't an issue for you. On to my analysis of the games!
Game 1: Well, I stupidly got silver over Royal Seal on turn 3. Probably turn 4 is a little too soon in general to grab the second monument, but you'd already gotten a gold (which was, I think, the big factor), so I felt I needed to get a little lucky (by avoiding collisions) to catch up anyway, so I played for the luck. The thing I don't understand is why you got so many inns so early, and didn't get more monuments. Well, I think that was a little bit of a problem for you, but not as much as the early gold helped you, and I could probably have gone for an inn at some point as well. Actually inn/monument heavy might be pretty strong here. Not sure. Overall, a little luck, but I don't think either of us played significantly better/worse than the other, and the extra turn decided.
Game 2: Well, I'm not so sure about lookout. I don't like it in general, and I don't think it's so great with hunting parties. Speaking of which, I think you got too many golds and not enough hunting parties for your strategy. I strongly considered going HP/Festival here (Buy up to 1 gold, then up to 1 festival, then as many hunting parties as possible), but I considered that HP is really fragile against handsize-reducing attacks. So I thought Margrave should be good. I probably shouldn't have gotten the shanty town, but more than this, I was very unlucky to collide my margraves a couple times and have them miss the reshuffle on at least one occasion as well. And I probably misplayed the endgame as well, going a little bit too heavy on the green too soon. It's not like actually catching up for the 2 province deficit was going to happen for me. Again, probably pretty close strategies overall, and the cookie crumbled in your direction
Game 3: Who says I can't play a combo/engine deck? I think the interesting thing here was to actually go for double tactician with menageries, which I could only do with enough hamlet (and oasis) support. Well, the bridges were obviously key, but so were all the other cards, and since it's a 5-card combo, don't expect to ever see it. But it was nice that I spotted it.
Game 4: I actually thought I was doing really well early on, but then Lekkit's double apprentices really got on a roll like I've never seen. I think he started saccing things a touch to early maybe, but hey, it was just enough, with the extra turn, to lock it in. Again I had the last province on the next turn if able, but I felt like I needed to break PPR in this situation.
Game 5: I was very worried when he was able to get salvager-silver-estate-copper-copper, s that's huge for him winning the tournament race. I'm not sure whether tournament/silver is better than silver/silver, with tournaments on 4 thereafter. I tend to go with the latter, but I just couldn't resist here. This seems to me to be a game that's a race to the followers. I won that race and the game, but it felt pretty lucky for me to do so.
Game 6: I actually bought a moat in this game without attacks. Well, I ended up not getting so many fishing villages I expected, but I really wanted to prefer them to silver here, mostly for the peddlers being cheap. Lekkit ended the game behind, but it was going to be tough for him to catch up anyway, especially with all the duchies being gone and me having the tiebreaker.
Game 7: I didn't really understand what the quarry was for here. I mean, there are a couple nice 5 actions, but the quarry doesn't help you to get those THAT much more than silver, and after not very long at all you want to buy gold, province, platinum, and colony. And bishop is a little nicer on colony boards than non-colony ones. But I think the big thing is Haggler, which is just a monster here - I can get gold+Lab, Province+Gold, Colony+Platinum, Platinum+Gold, it really strengthens me up. I think it's a bit of a sneaky great card, and especially on a BM Colony board.

Anyway a very good match which, for most of it, I expected to lose against my strong opponent. Thanks for the games.

PerdHapley

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 2
« Reply #78 on: November 14, 2011, 05:17:38 pm »
0

Since we're the last match left at this point, I should mention that shark_bait and I have plans to play tomorrow morning. One of us will post results immediately after.
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Lekkit

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 2
« Reply #79 on: November 15, 2011, 04:17:10 am »
+1

@WanderingWinder: Game 1: The reason I bought Inns was that the first time I got to shuffle a Monument into my deck. The second one was basically an expensive worse Warehouse. I could probably have gone for a second or possibly a third Monument, however the early Gold got me to high amounts of money early and then I kinda went kinda green.

Game 2: With only HP as the "engine" I prefer getting more Golds than most other people. It could be due to some previous bad luck, however I've generally had better results with more Gold and not just Hunting Parties. The Lookout was mainly to speed up the start and making me have to get less Hunting Parties to draw them.

Game 3: Once again, nicely done. I saw what you were doing when you got your second Tactician. I did not expect it to be that strong at all.

Game 4: I really like Apprentice, I'm not sure I should get it as often as I do. And I'm not really good with it either, since I hardly ever know when to trash my expensive cards. In the end it worked out for me, but it doesn't always do.

Game 5: Not much to say here.

Game 6: What I said about Game 5.

Game 7: I thought that both Haggler and Labratory would be really strong in this kingdom and I didn't want to miss them. Also, I was hoping that you would get a Bishop so that I could start trashing coppers, and then a Quarry would help in the early rounds. And it would give me an additional chip over a Silver if I'd trash it with my own Bishop that I wanted to get.
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Geronimoo

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 2
« Reply #80 on: November 15, 2011, 05:09:58 am »
0

Hunting Party is a unique card: it's an engine all on its own and I bet a lot of people are playing it wrong.

If you take the simple case of Hunting Parties + money, buying more than 1 Gold will decrease your winnings by 10%. This is because 1 Gold is enough to buy a Province if you played a few HPs and the extra Gold you bought means 1 fewer HP in your deck.
Adding Lookout is actually disastrous. The HP already skips all your Estates and Coppers so you don't need it and the HP can't skip the Lookout like an excess Silver so you'll constantly be drawing it even when you're greening.
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Reyk

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 2
« Reply #81 on: November 15, 2011, 05:31:40 am »
0

And bishop is a little nicer on colony boards than non-colony ones.

What do you mean here? I always thought the opposite is true.
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kn1tt3r

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 2
« Reply #82 on: November 15, 2011, 05:35:15 am »
0

And bishop is a little nicer on colony boards than non-colony ones.

What do you mean here? I always thought the opposite is true.
I've also considered victory token cards are in general a bit weaker in Colony games, basically because the additional points have more weight with a lower general score level.

The exception is maybe Goons, which sometimes profits from longer games.
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Lekkit

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 2
« Reply #83 on: November 15, 2011, 06:44:03 am »
0

I find that thrashing helps a lot on Colony boards. Bishop is a trasher. And aven if it don't work as well as a VP-generator the same way it does on Province boards it still helps to break ties. As in the game me and WW played.
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kn1tt3r

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 2
« Reply #84 on: November 15, 2011, 06:50:39 am »
0

I find that thrashing helps a lot on Colony boards. Bishop is a trasher. And aven if it don't work as well as a VP-generator the same way it does on Province boards it still helps to break ties. As in the game me and WW played.

But well, it trashes your opponent down too, so there is not much net benefit from it.
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Lekkit

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 2
« Reply #85 on: November 15, 2011, 07:13:58 am »
0

If i trash all my Estates with my own Bishop and you trash all your Estates with my Bishop I'm actually one Province ahead. Even on Colony boards that is sometimes a tie-breaker.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 2
« Reply #86 on: November 15, 2011, 07:20:52 am »
0

If i trash all my Estates with my own Bishop and you trash all your Estates with my Bishop I'm actually one Province ahead. Even on Colony boards that is sometimes a tie-breaker.

On the other hand, if I bought a Monument instead you're only a Duchy up, and I'm making more money.
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Lekkit

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 2
« Reply #87 on: November 15, 2011, 07:28:55 am »
0

That is true. However, one card being a better buy than another card in a certain scenario is not something that changes the Bishop's general usefullness in a Colony game.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 2
« Reply #88 on: November 15, 2011, 08:10:59 am »
0

That is also true. But regardless of whether or not it's a Colony game I rarely if ever buy one in the first few turns. It'll get you an early lead, but it's a terminal Copper, unless you use it to trash a Copper, in which case it's a terminal $0.

It also happens to be one of my favourite cards (1.20 win rate with, 1.36 win rate without), and often I'll finish with as many or more VP tokens as my opponent who bought his Bishop 10 turns before I did.
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Lekkit

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 2
« Reply #89 on: November 15, 2011, 08:15:58 am »
0

If no other trasher is available I'd go for a Bishop as early as possible in a Colony game. In a Province game I prefer to get him later and get a massive amount of chips from more expensive cards. However, there is a great difference in playing a Bishop as a trasher and as a VP-generator.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 2
« Reply #90 on: November 15, 2011, 08:23:35 am »
0

I don't see your logic. If you open Bishop, particularly with no other trashing, you can generally expect your opponent to trash something to it just about every time you play it in the early-mid game, providing you with no trashing advantage at all. Your opponent now has more expensive cards than you which he can either start collecting VP tokens for or build his engine + Platinums.
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DG

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 2
« Reply #91 on: November 15, 2011, 08:52:14 am »
0

Perhaps this bishop talk could be in its own thread. In this case the choice here seemed to be between using a bishop or haggler as the primary terminal action. The trashing would be roughly equal for both players and the haggler has to gain enough momentum to take the colonies 5/3, which seems plausible. The lab and cartographer are good support cards for both the bishop and haggler, for different reasons, and I wouldn't like to predict a winner.

Lekkit had some good draws in this series but in this last game he got a stinker, drawing his estates and coppers again in turns 3 and 4, the 1 in 66 bad draw.
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Lekkit

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 2
« Reply #92 on: November 15, 2011, 09:25:17 am »
0

@DG: I can live with bad draws. Generally I don't draw overall bad or overall good. I think I got lucky during two or three games, but only really lucky in one of the games.

There is a small advantage being the player not going for the Bishop first, however I still prefer both player trimming their decks to two non-trimmed ones.

[EDIT:] If some mod would like to split the topic I surely wouldn't mind.
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PerdHapley

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 2
« Reply #93 on: November 15, 2011, 02:37:47 pm »
+1

Shark_bait and I just finished a nail biter of a series, with him pulling ahead in the end.

Game 1 perdhapley: http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/15/game-20111115-101029-736dcf12.html Torturer/nothing vs double Ambassador, with Torturer letting me get to the Hunting Parties much quicker. I drew really lucky throughout this game and amassed enough Hunting Parties to rip through my deck and pull off a win.

Game 2 shark_bait: I must've accidentally deleted the log for this one... it was a Colony game with Tactician, Mountebank, Governor, JoaT, Stables and Spice Merchant that ended 52/49. I'll post the full log when it pops up.

Game 3 shark_bait: http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/15/game-20111115-102551-cdc711b4.html A Tournament/Steward match in which I draw pretty ugly in the second shuffle (C/C/E/E/E turn 3 and Steward/4 coppers turn 4) and never really recover. Shark_bait grabs the Followers and the rest of the game proceeds inevitably.

Game 4 perdhapley: http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/15/game-20111115-103256-5ed4dd39.html Another Colony game. Shark_bait goes for the Banks and I go for Hoards, both with Envoy support, and while we split the Colonies I manage to snag a few Provinces as well.

Game 5 perdhapley: http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/15/game-20111115-104301-7f055c17.html A JoaT game that surely would've gone a LOT faster if I hadn't decided to snag a Young Witch along the way, but doing so let me pull off a win. A tense Duchy race in the middle, this one was a lot of fun.

Game 6 shark_bait: http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/15/game-20111115-105305-b954815d.html Familiar, City, and, surprisingly, Farmland ended up being the trump cards here. I had to settle for University instead of Familiar early on, and my initial plan to combat Familiar by snatching the Upgrades and Cities proved fruitless.

Game 7 shark_bait: http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/15/game-20111115-110629-8be83c28.html ...In which both of us activate Treasure Maps early (Inn is pretty great at this! who knew?), shark does it twice, and my ability to tie the score with a Province buy on my final turn is ruined by the fact I went first. I made one HUGE mistake here by thinking "oh, scheme/treasure map!" on turn 2, idiotically forgetting that, well, since playing TMs trashes them you can't exactly return them to your deck for another try. Hence the two scheme buys - replace one with an Ironworks and things might've gone differently.


Shark_bait was a blast to play with and we got lucky to get dealt a really varied set of kingdoms that lent the whole series a very epic feel. Good Luck to everyone for the rest of the tournament.

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Mean Mr Mustard

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 2
« Reply #94 on: November 15, 2011, 05:00:47 pm »
0

<b>ROUND TWO FINAL</b>

<b>North Conference</b>
<b>1. shark_bait (1)</b>
vs
<s>6.perdhapley (24)</s>

<b>2. DG ( 8 )</b>
vs
<s>3. Mean Mr Mustard (11)</s>

<b>South Conference</b>

<b>1. califax (4)</b>
vs
<s>4. theParty (15)</s>

<b>2. ehunt (5)</b>
vs
<s>5. thisisnotasmile (18)</s>

<b>East Conference</b>

<b>1. Wandering Winder (2)</b>
vs
<s>4. Lekkit (16)</s>

<s>7. WallyNate (25)</s>
vs
<b>5. Dstu (19)</b>

<b>West Conference</b>

<s>1. painted_cow (3)</s>
vs
<b>4. geronimoo (13)</b>

<s>7. Jimmmmm (26)</s>
vs
<b>3. Rabid (10)</b>
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Jake <a href=http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201203/17/game-20120317-030206-6456f97c.html>opening: opening: Silver / Jack of All Trades</a>
<b>IsoDom1 Winner:  shark_bait
IsoDom2 Winner: Rabid
Isodom3 Winner: Fabian</b>
Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalie ar Atanatári, Utúlie'n auré!

shark_bait

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 2
« Reply #95 on: November 15, 2011, 05:05:19 pm »
+1

You can get the logs from Perdhapley's post but I'll post my thoughts here.

Game 1:  Even though I thin my deck better with the ambassadors, it has no affect due to perdhapley's use of hunting party.  Loss goes completely to me for missing that interaction.

Game 2:  The one thing I remember about this game was that I didn't play JoaT as much as I could.  Pretty much only in the beginning or when I could trash a curse.  I didn't always want the silvers when trying to buy colonies and at that point I usually had more than 5 cards so I wouldn't have been able to draw either.

Game 3:  Perdhapley definitely had some unfortunate draws.  And like he said, I got the follower's and from then on it was just a matter of finishing the game.

Game 4:  Looking back... perhaps apothecary/market/bank would have been the best way to go. 

Game 5:  What he said.... YW won it for him.  I thought I could get by by using 2 JoaT to trash the curses they give me, but he loads me up enough to pull out a W.

Game 6:  Perdhapley misses the first set of familiar purchase and has to settle for university.  He goes for uber upgrade to counteract the amount of curses that I'm pumping into his deck.  He almost makes an epic comeback in the last turn but falls just short.

Game 7:  This was my favorite game of the series!  Starting from turn 11, I went through my deck in such a way that every action card previously purchased contributed to a string of 4 consecutive provinces to end the game before reshuffling.  It was fun to see all of the cards interact in such a great way.

Kudos to Perdhapley for playing some great games.  This series could have gone either way depending the cards played out in some the games.  Thanks for playing a fun series of games!
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Hello.  Name's Bruce.  It's all right.  I understand.  Why trust a shark, right?

Is quite curious - Who is the mystical "Celestial Chameleon"?

Mean Mr Mustard

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 3
« Reply #96 on: November 15, 2011, 05:05:31 pm »
0

Good luck in round 3, folks.
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Jake <a href=http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201203/17/game-20120317-030206-6456f97c.html>opening: opening: Silver / Jack of All Trades</a>
<b>IsoDom1 Winner:  shark_bait
IsoDom2 Winner: Rabid
Isodom3 Winner: Fabian</b>
Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalie ar Atanatári, Utúlie'n auré!

Reyk

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 3
« Reply #97 on: November 16, 2011, 03:52:57 am »
+1

Ehunt was my neighbour not only in the starting list for the tournament, but at the leaderboard as well when we played the match. Our score before was 4-4. So I expected a close match which indeed happened.
Some games were hard for me to grasp - so any comments are appreciated.

We played veto mode, without point tracker and without "identical starting hands".

1) http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111113-093038-9f6f8022.html

Key cards: Masquerade, Alchemist (Scrying Pool as Backup), Margrave (only + buy), no action providers.

I have the impression we missplayed this one.
Strange game because you really want both: Masquerade and Margrave (has anyone simulated one against each other with pure BM?).
I was afraid to play pure Masquerade/BM because of Margraves handsize attack (which maybe isn't so strong once you have enough gold?) and with 3/4 Masqu/Potion for Alchemists is much more tempting than Silver/Silver for Margrave + Money. But I remember now a discussion when council room/BM easily beat Alchemists. On this board there was even support for money strategies at 5$ with venture ...
We were really slow going for Potion - I probably wouldn't do it again. The simulator guys perhaps know how to play this board ;-)
Maybe Masqu + BM or Margrave + BM or even both + BM.

At the end I decided to just live with two terminal drawing actions and hope the best. Ehunt bought a second terminal too - but not a drawer: Explorer! I thought about garden intentions for a moment, but that's not possible in presence of Masquerade. The idea is obviously to generate Gold thanks to Alchemists/Province and to mitigate that way the absence of a plus buy?! It almost worked ...

Things went wrong for me after a 3-1 Province lead from turn 13 because I couldn't put back Alchemists anymore despite having 7, some trashing and some additional drawing power (another problem: even if you can the maximum number for alchemists to put back is 4 due to Masquerade) . In turn 16 I drew dead Alchemist/Alchemist/Masqu. with my Margrave and thought game over. But ehunt was unlucky too, got 7 and I finally got the last Province.

califax - ehunt 33:27

2) http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111113-094046-9f1246bd.html

I don't understand this game either. I started Lookout/Monument and drew both at turn 5. But it's a Colony and not a Chapel game - so its bad, but not the end of the world. From turn 7 ehunt heavily invested in Lighthouse and I couldn't figure out why (I even followed suit a bit at turn 12 - fearing the vineyards - which is an overreaction I guess). Maybe simply to avoid silver or deke some vineyard tricks (but with Colonies?) or to increase chances for Grand Market?! But he not only avoided Silver but a second Monument which is the only terminal action you want here. I could end it on 3 piles before his Grand Market majority and the Platinum could catch up.

ehunt - califax 24:32

3) http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111113-094944-ecc3bb3c.html

I have to admit that I was surprised to lose this game by 1 point. I probably lost score track on Estates. It was clearly a Hinterland board when ehunts' Develop/Feast start into Ill-Gotten Gains worked quite well. Later you can develop IGG into Feast/Gold to put them on top of your deck. I started Silver/Remake which looks reasonable too to trash more Curses and IGG into Farmland but it didn't help. Of course it was a three pile ending on IGG/Curses/Duchies.

ehunt - califax 24:23

4) http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111113-100424-047c0748.html

Another game with no action providers but two terminals you probably want to have: Bishop and Nomade Camp (for the only + buy). Bearing this in mind ehunt opened Talisman to avoid Nomade Camp which is interesting, but on ocassion clashes with Potion as you probably need to have Scrying Pool. Trashing on opponents Bishop to use an early Nomade Camp might be a try, but then you have to go for a 5-3 Province split which is not so easy to achieve.
I decided to give up Bishop at a certain point to use Nomade Camp. I fall behin in tokens, but could buy a double Province on turn 16.

califax - ehunt 49:39

5) http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111113-101111-f29d942b.html

An instructive game. My 5-2 start is probably favorable here but I was fooled into a Fool's Gold deck. First of all Trading Post isn't the best trasher for such a deck of course. I thought that Library would do it nevertheless but I was wrong. I bought 5th Province at turn 16 but then couldn't do literally anything the next three turns.
Ehunt chose an interesting strategy in heavily buying Duchies (drawing $7 repeatedly might have helped for this decision) to give me less opportunities for converting the Fool's Gold into real Gold. Despite the 3-5 Province split he won handily.

ehunt - califax 44:38

6) http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111113-102944-2a1fb64e.html

Luck on my side in this final game. I had favorable draws here playing my Stewart in turn 4 and 5 whereas ehunt drew his Stewart in turn 5 for the first time. So I established an early lead in Provinces but with cheap cards that work well together (Hamlet, Stewart) and +buy sources ehunt went for a viable Vineyard strategy. I felt I have to follow this because otherwise Vineyards would have enough time to overcome Provinces. I even bought a late second Potion to get a 4-4 Vineyard split and could end it on 3 piles.

califax - ehunt 35:25

overall califax - ehunt 4:2
Thx for the games.

« Last Edit: November 16, 2011, 01:39:05 pm by Reyk »
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ackack

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 3
« Reply #98 on: November 16, 2011, 12:00:10 pm »
+1

I have the impression we missplayed this one.
Strange game because you really want both: Masquerade and Margrave

I agree, and I would buy both. I think I'd start this one Masq/Silver, buy a Margrave on an early 5 (the priority is not so high that I'd pick it over Gold), and then later 5s on Ventures. The occasional clash seems a worthy price to pay  Masq/Venture alone might also be pretty good if you preferentially trash Copper instead of Estates. But I think the attacking aspect of Margrave makes it worth having one.

Game 2, I'm guessing the initial double buy of Lighthouse was just that he preferred 2 Lighthouses to a second Monument or one Silver. That seems reasonable to me from the perspective of fastest boost to average deck quality/reduction in Copper density. I could also imagine a bit of paranoia regarding Saboteur. Later on, especially after you've bought 3 Lighthouses, I think there's a reasonable argument to be made for him to snatch up more and hope that his superior economy allows him to pile out quickly after grabbing some VPs. The Monument mismatch seems to have resulted in a 1 token difference, so I don't think that was a big factor.
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DG

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 3
« Reply #99 on: November 16, 2011, 01:00:28 pm »
+1

I suspect that this alchemist/masquerade/margrave kingdom is a competitive one where you have to react to your opponent. If you go for margrave/masquerade + treasure then you might have to compete for silk roads and gardens. If you go for alchemists then you can probably power past a silk road/garden opponent with repeated province buying. The terminals all mismatch with the supporting cards so yes I'd say it was a difficult kingdom.

I messed up my first game against Mean Mr. Mustard by looking for a similar triangle of straight envoy + treasure, poor king's court deck using shanty towns, and an unlikely silk road stratgey. The silk road deck probably wouldn't have worked but it still worried me enough to make mistakes.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 3
« Reply #100 on: November 16, 2011, 02:24:24 pm »
+1

DStu just knocked me out 4-3.
Game 1: http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/16/game-20111116-101951-406ab56c.html
I was unlucky enough to draw all of my non-drawers together in one hand the first time it was possible on turn 12. After that, I could have tied it, but would have lost on tiebreaker, and in such a mirror, that was pretty much game over.
Game 2: http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/16/game-20111116-102835-3bbf7ccc.html
Turn 5 I hit Shanty Town-copper-Potion-estate-estate, and the shanty town draws me the last estate and my university. Literally the only 6 card combination in my deck that stops me from getting a second university that shuffle, and man that kills me. DStu had gone YW first, which wasn't a big problem for me as I loaded up on the Shanty Town banes, but it was a huge problem that he was able to catch up in the University->actions race AND have a lead in money.
Game 3: http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/16/game-20111116-103338-4c1a74ba.html
Not a ton on the board. I really loaded up on the militias. He gets a saboteur instead of a third militia. And then I get a little bit lucky on getting my money faster, and I'm pretty much in control if he doesn't get a bit lucky in return with his Sabo, which he doesn't.
Game 4: http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/16/game-20111116-104121-d575ae73.html
Again, my dominance with workshop on board continues to astound me. we have, I think, similar strategies - Workshop to gain some tournaments, LOTS of conspirators and hunting parties. I open with tournament/Workshop, whereas he goes conspirator/workshop. This instantly backfires with terminal collision on turn 3. Well, I tactically go for provinces over colonies at a few points, just not giving him any room. This was definitely a lot closer than the score would indicate.
Game 5: http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/16/game-20111116-104537-b6f3829f.html
He goes for a chapel/remodel strategy with a little walled village support. I plan on going more chapel/money with eventually apprentice or remodel and nobles support. Well, I get a little bad luck with my chapel draws, and I'm not sure if it was all that or if his strategy was a little better too (I'm guessing it probably was), but it didn't feel so close as the 8 point margin would indicate.
Games 6 and 7 I neglected to pull the logs of. I'm probably going to replace all the logs with the CouncilRoom ones tomorrow, and I'll put these in then.
Game 6: This is probably the one I'm most proud of. We both open scheme/sea hag. By getting a second hag a little sooner, I win the curse war 6-4 (actually I don't know that he should have gotten the second hag at all). But with only one more pile seeming likely to run out soon, we both had to ramp back up. The key cards were Native Village (which I got pretty lucky with, though some of that is the nature of sea hags), scheme, Vault, and Grand Market. I actually am pretty slow to get to vault, but I eventually pick up more schemes than he does, and a huge ball of scheme/vault/native village/grand market snowballs to grab a lot of points pretty quickly. I actually end the game (I think with 5 provinces?) on turn 23 or something, which is not bad at all considering the huge tempo loss of the hags.
Game 7: Really complicated interesting board. I've always wondered whether remake was a really effective counter to ambassador. Well, I should have figured out before this. It isn't. Young Witch, Lab, and Hunting Party all made it more interesting too. It's not so much that I get balled under (the remakes do a decent job of dealing with things) as it is that he's just really fast with his thin deck. I was definitely outplayed here, and deservedly lost.

Thanks for the games, and congratulations DStu

DStu

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 3
« Reply #101 on: November 16, 2011, 02:41:12 pm »
+1

So I beat WanderingWinder 4:3.

logs of 6&7:
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/16/game-20111116-105619-e2766af1.html
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/16/game-20111116-110401-188c75fd.html

First one was Chapel/Woodcutter->Highways/Peddler without other buys or actions or trash-for-benefit. I took an Outpost, I think one or two turns too early because I didn't want to play it the first turns I had it in hand and needed more highways, but I felt that it was a good buy. At least for this tactics, perhaps one should have ignored all these Highways and Peddlers. Second player advantage ( ;) ) really helped as it was enough for me to tie, which really helped in many decisions...
Second one... Cities, Highways with Universities, Young Witch with Shanty Town as Bane. WW went for Cities and defended against the Witch with the ST. I decided to not go for the Shanty Town and let the Witch be a Witch. Was not sure if I should risk to let him go for the Cities, as Curses are unlikely to run out fastly when he defends, but I didn't dare because a complete Level2 City stack is of course very dangerous with the Highways, so I just followed the Cities and we splitted them 5/5. Which of course helps to run them out, I don't know what would have happend. WW went definitely more for a megaturn, I took the points when I could get them and could finish by buying 3 Curses before something bad happened. Don't know how close it was, was afraid the next-to-last turn when I could only have bought 2 Curses that this would have been my last turn.
Third one: BM-Militia as second player, I really felt behind after getting my Gold "stolen" on turn 3, so I thought just sabotage a little bit and hope that this will help. Hit the mean Militias a few times, but it wasn't enough. But at least felt good.
Fourth: Hunting Parties, Tournament, Conspirator. We both Workshopped into the game, but no chance for me. WS/Tournament is definitely the better opening than WS/Consp here, and I didn't really know how to optimally build it up here (except getting as many HP/Consp/Tournament asap), so deserved loss.
Five: Another Chapelgame. I remodelled myself out, was a bit lucky that it doesn't collide with the Chapel and hit estates, but was a good way to get Gold fastly despite the chapelled deck. Support by Margrave in the midgame, and of course Remodel is helpfull in the end as well. WW went for Apprentice, which I also considered instead of the Margrave.
Six: Scheme/Sea Hag->Vault/GM for both of us, WW took two Hags, I bought a second one defitely to late. First Gold should also have a Vault, deserved loss again.
Seven: Ambassador/Hunting party for me, WW plays Remake.

Thanks for the games again.

Edit: Ok, I was not fast enough, so I delete the logs

Edit2:
Quote
This was definitely a lot closer than the score would indicate.
Didn't felt like ;)
« Last Edit: November 16, 2011, 02:51:08 pm by DStu »
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DG

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 3
« Reply #102 on: November 17, 2011, 03:11:46 pm »
0

My match with Shark_Bait is adjourned at 2-2 and we don't have a natural time to complete it. We'll have to see how it goes over the weekend.

DG 39 : 45 Shark_Bait http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/17/game-20111117-105320-9830070b.html
DG 36 : 50 Shark_Bait http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/17/game-20111117-110401-0e46bc95.html
DG 30 : 17 Shark_Bait http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/17/game-20111117-112945-5d302186.html
DG 41 : 27 Shark_Bait http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/17/game-20111117-114644-eecbd4de.html

In the first game I suspect we both planned something different to how it panned out, based on the remodel opportunities we had. We actually had to ask each other what we had planned since it just didn't happen. I certainly replanned what I was doing a few times and plan B and plan C weren't good enough to win anything.
The second game I had a 5/2 start with the only option being torturer against tunnel, that I declined. We both went for baron/loan, I pushed for a loan/tunnel/adventurer continuation while shark_bait went more for tournaments, they both seem reasonable, and it would be nice to know which might have had an edge. (I used my noble steed at the end to get my adventurers back into the draw deck, in case anyone was wondering, I didn't want the silver)
In the third game I went for a more expansive opening and it set me up well enough so that some muddled play in the mid game didn't matter.
In the fourth game my play was again quite muddled but I had one thing in my sights, possession from the black market, and that let me loot Shark_Bait's excellent deck for a win. I probably didn't deserve it though.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2011, 04:23:13 pm by DG »
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Reyk

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 3
« Reply #103 on: November 17, 2011, 03:45:38 pm »
0

It might be not that important (especially since sharkbait randomly was seated first player in the first game), but 'normally' shark bait would be starting player in game 5. Is there a way to assure this via iso?

Related question: How does iso put the order of players after a tie?

I have the impression that it's hard to overcome an early lead in a match because you will be second seat in the decisive games. (Kudos to DG for reaching this against Mean Mr. Mustard). Therefore I even had the idea to give first player advantage in game 1 to the lower seeded player.

Don't missunderstand me - it's a minor issue. The most important part are the fun games and the interesting comments afterwards.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2011, 03:47:59 pm by Reyk »
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Geronimoo

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 3
« Reply #104 on: November 17, 2011, 05:07:57 pm »
+2

Rabid 4 - Geronimoo 2

Very fun games where I got a little unlucky with the shuffler, but Rabid definitely outplayed me on the Scrying Pool board.

Geronimoo http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/17/game-20111117-120231-a3d7ce18.html
I go for a Hunting Party strategy into Peddlers and eventually Possession while Rabid goes for Village Vault. I think my plan is a little better and I posses him relentlessly thanks to the Hunting Parties.

Rabid http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/17/game-20111117-121045-df71e95f.html
I decide I don't want to go for Ambassador (it's an overrated card) and buy a Salvager which I expect to use frequently trashing Ambassadored Estates. Unfortunately the shuffler is not very kind as I get a 4  Copper Salvager hand and then 2 Copper+3 Estates. Eventually I go for Torturers and money which is actually not a very good idea (should have been Merchant Ships), but it should still beat the Ambassador. Final turns I play Torturer and my opponent discards to 3 so I decide it's quite safe to break the PPR, but he plays GoldGoldSilver for the win.

Rabid http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/17/game-20111117-121919-c2a6eb69.html
I open $5/$2 which is unfortunate on this Jack board (Sea Hag is worse). I think I play it a little better knowing from simulations that I can start Duchying very early while Rabid is still buying Golds, but the $5/$2 opening still kills me.

Geronimoo http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/17/game-20111117-123228-551bafe7.html
There might be a Bridge engine present on this board, but I'm afraid to try it so I just go Smithy BM and my opponent goes for something in between (he ended with 2 Villages but mostly money for the rest). There's a real PPR situation which Rabid smartly decides not to break (he would have been dead) and so we Duchie-dance for a while, but in the end I win comfortably.

Rabid http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/17/game-20111117-125703-a357f280.html
This board scares me: I know I should do something with Remake and Scrying Pool, but I'm a bit lost and just go for Hunting Parties + Black Market. I pull a Sea Hag and Goons out of the BM, but I realize pretty soon I'm very very dead. I resign to spare Rabid and myself from going through the motions of his Remaking Curses into Markets and other insanity.

Rabid http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/17/game-20111117-132927-c8173bf0.html
This was a pretty hilarious game. We both go for Shanty Town-Council Room-Quarrie. I add a Ghost Ship which seems a little better, but might not be because Shanty Towns can be put back on the deck strategically. I make an idiot move of buying Outpost (what are the odds of getting Shanty Town in a 3-card hand? Not very good!!). Rabid decides that 2 idiots is better than 1, so he also buys an Outpost. We both lol a few turns later at our dead Outpost turns. I almost make a come-back thanks to a lot of Spying, but Rabid wins it in a lucky Outpost turn (well he just needed to hit $4 so not very lucky).

I think I outplayed him a little in the first, but he definitely proved his worth on the engine board and isn't that what this game is all about? NO DAMMIT, IT'S ABOUT SILVER AND GOLD!!! Oh well... a deserved winner moves on and I wish him good luck in the next rounds!
« Last Edit: November 17, 2011, 05:10:09 pm by Geronimoo »
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biopower

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 3
« Reply #105 on: November 17, 2011, 05:23:57 pm »
0

but 'normally' shark bait would be starting player in game 5. Is there a way to assure this via iso?

Start a dummy game and have Shark Bait forfeit on turn 1. Then play the actual tournament game. (You can even require the same cards as were used in the dummy game so that inserting the dummy game doesn't have any overall effect).

edit: I accidentally a verb
« Last Edit: November 17, 2011, 05:26:46 pm by biopower »
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Rabid

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 3
« Reply #106 on: November 17, 2011, 05:52:30 pm »
0

Was a fun match thanks for the games:

Geronimoo http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/17/game-20111117-120231-a3d7ce18.htm

You definatly out played me in this one, you going first + you getting $5, $5 on T 3 & 4 made this really hard to win. My villages were partly to help with peddlers but my deck never really worked, I also never know when to buy the potion in possession games.

Rabid http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/17/game-20111117-121045-df71e95f.html

I agree we both made mistakes in this one, I would like to try just the one Amb, but salveger is really strong unless you get the dreaded SalvCCCC hand :(.

Rabid http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/17/game-20111117-121919-c2a6eb69.html

Going first seems to be huge in Jack mirrors. your estates not lining up with the jacks certainly didn't help. I'll have to look at the sims more for this. I think my T8 gold was OK, in that at that point I'm probably going to have to get a little lucky and win the prov's 5-3. I got to use it on T11 & 15 to buy provs.

Geronimoo http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/17/game-20111117-123228-551bafe7.html

Got outplayed in this one as well, I think somehow at the same time I had too many villages and too many terminals. Got a late trade routes to try for a late game +buy to steal a win, but drew it dead off a smithy :(.

Rabid http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/17/game-20111117-125703-a357f280.html

Very crazy board, Apologies for taking so long on this game was thinking loads and still making several mistakes per turn. Whats the correct opening here? I went for potion / loan  into scrying pool, then got to do sick plays like: develop silver into quarry hamlet, draw them, black market the quarry, remake curse's into black market. Thanks Geronimoo for conceding to save time, was going to be able to easily 3 pile for the win, or set up a HoP ending, or use the valt I got from the BM for loads of $.

Rabid http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/17/game-20111117-132927-c8173bf0.html

Quarry with lots of + buys always makes for a strange game, as you both have to be so careful of the 3 pile ending. I took some early points to defend against this which then obviously started getting in the way. Again not sure on the openings here, Silver Quarry vs Shanty Town Quarry?

Thanks again to Geronimoo for such an enjoyable match.

Rabid
« Last Edit: November 17, 2011, 05:54:50 pm by Rabid »
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shark_bait

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 3
« Reply #107 on: November 17, 2011, 05:57:08 pm »
0

I definitely enjoyed my games with DG thus far.  In regard to the fourth game, I certainly was poised to win with a 7 - 3 GM split.  However, DG gave himself the opportunity to get possession and it payed off.  He got it in the nick of time too.  If he had missed getting it one more time I think I would gotten enough of a lead that it wouldn't have mattered.  DG got to use my deck right when I was ready to transition into green mode.

I really don't mind what happens in regard to the starting seat of game 5.  I'm having fun just playing the games.  However, if I follow my usual trend I'll lose game 5 regardless of seat and be down 3-2 just like the first 2 series.  And then it's time to continue some clutch dominion playing while facing elimination :-)
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Hello.  Name's Bruce.  It's all right.  I understand.  Why trust a shark, right?

Is quite curious - Who is the mystical "Celestial Chameleon"?

Mean Mr Mustard

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 3
« Reply #108 on: November 18, 2011, 02:17:03 am »
0

Very nice job, Dstu.   At the time of seeding Winder was ranked first on the leaderboard and would have been ranked number one overall but for my arbitrary decision to give the seat to shark_bait following his victory in the first tournament.  I know first-hand that Winder is a superb player, so it is a great accomplishment.

Kudos to Rabid for knocking out the guy <s>that felled me in round two and</s> who has studied the game probably more than anyone.  And califax, we all know you are the real deal and a monster in your own right.  Ehunt is no slouch, one of the best around.  Gratz fellas.
 
« Last Edit: November 18, 2011, 08:48:14 am by Mean Mr Mustard »
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Jake <a href=http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201203/17/game-20120317-030206-6456f97c.html>opening: opening: Silver / Jack of All Trades</a>
<b>IsoDom1 Winner:  shark_bait
IsoDom2 Winner: Rabid
Isodom3 Winner: Fabian</b>
Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalie ar Atanatári, Utúlie'n auré!

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 3
« Reply #109 on: November 18, 2011, 02:25:49 am »
0

MMM, you're confusing me with DG. I never played against you in this series.
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Mean Mr Mustard

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 3
« Reply #110 on: November 18, 2011, 08:38:20 am »
0

Yeah, that's what I get for posting after my bedtime.
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Jake <a href=http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201203/17/game-20120317-030206-6456f97c.html>opening: opening: Silver / Jack of All Trades</a>
<b>IsoDom1 Winner:  shark_bait
IsoDom2 Winner: Rabid
Isodom3 Winner: Fabian</b>
Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalie ar Atanatári, Utúlie'n auré!

philosophyguy

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 3
« Reply #111 on: November 20, 2011, 10:03:24 am »
0

As we're getting closer to the finals, I'm wondering if the players in the finals might be willing to do a write-up of their matches (or maybe the most interesting 2 matches) at the level of depth that the blog had with the annotated games feature. I, for one, would love to hear how the players thought about some of the key turn-by-turn decisions, and this seems an easy way to generate some more front-page content for the blog. Would the players left in the tournament be interested in doing that?
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DG

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 3
« Reply #112 on: November 22, 2011, 11:58:23 am »
+1

I've finished my series with Shark_Bait and it went his way 4:3. All close games here.

DG 65 : 59 Shark Bait :http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/22/game-20111122-081549-b57ef658.html
DG 31 : 42 Shark Bait :http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/22/game-20111122-083158-e7291d49.html
DG 38 : 39 Shark Bait :http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/22/game-20111122-084103-f36a69ef.html

First (fifth) game had a hoard-venture-masquerade combo but I carried it further with masquerade and goons. Shark Bait took  philosopher's stones from the start and that looked good too. Always looked like it might turn on a 7 hand or first turn advantage and it did.

Second game was tactician-coppersmith-bank. I seemed to get a good start but Shark_Bait did too and I found myself struggling to even tie. On the penultimate turn I gambled by throwing away a province buying hand with the tactician and bought two coppers, looking for the unlikely perfect draw next turn to tie. I then actually got that draw and lost it by misclicking to play all the money. Keeping the gold back would have left duchy, farmland, gold->province for the tie.

Third game was trader+wharf. I added a second wharf. Shark_Bait added a watchtower that put silver onto his deck early. Very close in the end. Not much more to say.

So thanks and well played Shark_Bait. Too good an opponent to let a game slip away on a misclick, that's for sure!
« Last Edit: November 22, 2011, 12:02:55 pm by DG »
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shark_bait

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 3
« Reply #113 on: November 22, 2011, 03:46:56 pm »
+1

I don't have much to add to what DG already said.  In my opinion game 5 was the most interesting due to our divergent strategies.  I thought that this was a perfect board for philosophers stone due to hoard and duchesses.  DG took that victory as both of us had multiple turns with the last province available.  Both of us were curious how this game would have turned out if we had played it again and both played the same strategies. 

In game 6, as DG said it was a tactician/coppersmith/bank type of a game.  Ironically, the first victory card I purchased was an estate.  On turn 8, I had played 2 oasis's as well as a tactician.  I figured that the game would be ending rapidly and with tactician as the only plus buy source, I decided to start early with lower VP green cards.

The last game was a BM-wharf game with traders.  DG picked up a second wharf, and I used watchtower to top deck silver gained from trader and other bought cards.

All in all, it was a fun and very close series.  Thanks to DG for playing and for being a good sport about the misclick in game 6. 
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Hello.  Name's Bruce.  It's all right.  I understand.  Why trust a shark, right?

Is quite curious - Who is the mystical "Celestial Chameleon"?

DG

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 3
« Reply #114 on: November 22, 2011, 06:26:53 pm »
0

Quote
As we're getting closer to the finals, I'm wondering if the players in the finals might be willing to do a write-up of their matches (or maybe the most interesting 2 matches) at the level of depth that the blog had with the annotated games feature.

Perhaps if you find one or two interesting games you can ask people to comment. Different people find different things interesting or enlightening. Some games the players just want to forget.
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Mean Mr Mustard

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Round 3
« Reply #115 on: November 22, 2011, 08:10:38 pm »
0

<b>Round Three Results</b>

<b>North Conference</b>
<b>1. shark_bait (1)</b>
vs
<s>2. DG ( 8 )</s>

<b>South Conference</b>

<b>1. califax (4)</b>
vs.
<s>2. ehunt (5)</s>

<b>East Conference</b>

<s>1. Wandering Winder (2)</s>
vs
<b>5. Dstu (19)</b>

<b>West Conference</b>

<s>4. geronimoo (13)</s>
vs
<b>3. Rabid (10)</b>
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Jake <a href=http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201203/17/game-20120317-030206-6456f97c.html>opening: opening: Silver / Jack of All Trades</a>
<b>IsoDom1 Winner:  shark_bait
IsoDom2 Winner: Rabid
Isodom3 Winner: Fabian</b>
Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalie ar Atanatári, Utúlie'n auré!

painted_cow

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Final 4
« Reply #116 on: November 22, 2011, 09:56:31 pm »
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Good luck to the remaining German players! Win this tournament  ;)
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shark_bait

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Final 4
« Reply #117 on: November 23, 2011, 08:02:25 am »
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Good luck to the remaining German players! Win this tournament  ;)

Perhaps for a future tourney we could split up the participants between Europe and America and have a clash of hemispheres for the finale.
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Hello.  Name's Bruce.  It's all right.  I understand.  Why trust a shark, right?

Is quite curious - Who is the mystical "Celestial Chameleon"?

Jimmmmm

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Final 4
« Reply #118 on: November 23, 2011, 08:18:52 am »
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Perhaps for a future tourney we could split up the participants between Europe and America and have a clash of hemispheres for the finale.

But you're all in the Northern Hemisphere... where does Australia fit in...?
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DStu

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Final 4
« Reply #119 on: November 23, 2011, 08:22:20 am »
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I thought Hemisphere is just the half of a sphere? You are not forced to split it at the equator.
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shark_bait

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Final 4
« Reply #120 on: November 23, 2011, 08:30:21 am »
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I thought Hemisphere is just the half of a sphere? You are not forced to split it at the equator.

Yeah, my original thought was along the lines of eastern/western, but splitting the globe in 4 and making each section a different part of the bracket could work if enough people from the various regions played.
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Hello.  Name's Bruce.  It's all right.  I understand.  Why trust a shark, right?

Is quite curious - Who is the mystical "Celestial Chameleon"?

Jimmmmm

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Final 4
« Reply #121 on: November 24, 2011, 01:49:02 am »
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I thought Hemisphere is just the half of a sphere? You are not forced to split it at the equator.

Well technically yes, but I'm still nowhere near either Europe or America.
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Mean Mr Mustard

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Final 4
« Reply #122 on: November 24, 2011, 06:23:55 am »
0

Maybe the English-speaking countries on one side and everyone else on the other?
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Jake <a href=http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201203/17/game-20120317-030206-6456f97c.html>opening: opening: Silver / Jack of All Trades</a>
<b>IsoDom1 Winner:  shark_bait
IsoDom2 Winner: Rabid
Isodom3 Winner: Fabian</b>
Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalie ar Atanatári, Utúlie'n auré!

Buggz

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Final 4
« Reply #123 on: November 24, 2011, 08:56:14 am »
0

Maybe the English-speaking countries on one side and everyone else on the other?
All 59 of them? :D
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Mean Mr Mustard

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Final 4
« Reply #124 on: November 24, 2011, 10:44:01 am »
0

Ooooh, we get India!
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Jake <a href=http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201203/17/game-20120317-030206-6456f97c.html>opening: opening: Silver / Jack of All Trades</a>
<b>IsoDom1 Winner:  shark_bait
IsoDom2 Winner: Rabid
Isodom3 Winner: Fabian</b>
Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalie ar Atanatári, Utúlie'n auré!

kn1tt3r

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Final 4
« Reply #125 on: November 24, 2011, 01:54:21 pm »
0

Ooooh, we get India!
Well, it used to be part of the British empire... so basically you're not getting it, but losing it more and more.  ;)
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Rabid

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Final 4
« Reply #126 on: November 27, 2011, 11:29:33 am »
+1

I just played a very enjoyable semifinal against DStu, winning 4-2-2.

Good luck to Shark bait and Califax in the other semi, see one of you in the Final.

Full report to follow shortly.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/27/game-20111127-070150-28d712b1.html
Draw 37-37. My Silver Ironworks vs Silver/HorseTaders
My plan was to use IW to gain lots of different cards to help trigger menagerie, and score from fairgrounds. this didn't quite work and I got very lucky to have Ł10 and +buy on the last turn to draw when 7 points behind. I could have extended the game in hope of a win, but I think it is usually correct to take the draw, then go first in the next game.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/27/game-20111127-071036-52166035.html
Rabid 49 DStu 33

Silver / Remake vs Silver Horse Traders
Plan was to trash down with remake to make pairing up tunnels & HT more reliable.
I got the perfect turn 3 of remake 2 estates into tunnel's, buy tunnel.
Then got a T4 horse traders to discard them to.
Apprentice was key to trash late game golds.


http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/27/game-20111127-072334-3fffe4af.html

Rabid 15 DStu 47

Silver / Masq vs Silver / Masq

Plan was to go 1 masq + Money and race.
DStu took a witch on T3, I think I over reacted and took a second Masq.
DStu transitioned well into bridge / City combo turn.
I made the critical error of building a mess not a deck.
I should have either stuck to big money with 1 to 2 Masq.
Or competed for the city / bridges.


http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/27/game-20111127-073958-9c20c8dd.html

Rabid 27 DStu 27

Potion Silver vs Potion Silver.
Plan was alchemist, as we had +buy from baron, and outpost.
I think I should have just stuck with outpost and not bothered with baron at all.
Start of my last turn I was 11 points ahead with 2 provinces remaining.
I get $3 + outpost into $3 choosing to buy estates both times. with the hope that a 13 point lead will be enough. DStu gets the prov into outpost inoit prov+ estate from the draw.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/27/game-20111127-074654-61aee333.html

Rabid 25 vs DStu 22

HP into develop vs HP into familiar on 5/2 start.
Probably the most interesting board to analyse.
I would guess HP only counters the curses on 5/2 not 4/3.
I think I would have been better off with remake instead of develop with the hope of double trashing curses. I would guess I won this mostly from going first.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/27/game-20111127-080226-396cc612.html

Rabid 25 DStu 14

Sea Hag / Silver vs Sea Hag warehouse.

Plan was to trade some long turn curses for a silver now, curse will run out eventually, then it will be who can recover first with forge. midgame I used warehouse and inn to desk cycle to find the library & forge aggressively.  Late games used forge to control end timing by trashing provinces while ahead.


http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/27/game-20111127-080948-c50d9e49.html

Rabid 48 DStu 59

Monument Loan vs Silver Silver

My plan was monuments + Tournament for virtual money to make the loan always hit copper. turn 3 I buy venture for no reason. I get very lucky with the loan anyway so it is closer than it should have been, but I get thrashed by the better plan of BM + wharf.


http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/27/game-20111127-081708-0fd5eb95.html

Rabid 38 DStu 34

Silver Silver vs Silver courtyard

My plan was BM + margrave, which I should have stuck too. got some menageries as a soft counter to margrave discards, they should have been silvers.
Keys plays in this were on Turn 15 down 2 prov to 4, buying the province and hoping for luck. then on turn 17, playing cartographer leaving Gold on top, not playing a menagerie and buying a duchy, but leaving gold for next have to have a better shot at the province.


Many thanks to DStu for the match, and the Mean Mr Mustard for organising.

Rabid
« Last Edit: November 27, 2011, 12:32:20 pm by Rabid »
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1 Day Cup #1:Ednever

DStu

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Final 4
« Reply #127 on: November 27, 2011, 11:48:43 am »
+1

Good luck to the remaining German players! Win this tournament  ;)

So that is Reyk's task now, Rabbid beat me 4-2 (with 2 draws)
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111127-070150-28d712b1.html
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111127-071036-52166035.html
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111127-072334-3fffe4af.html
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111127-073958-9c20c8dd.html
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111127-074654-61aee333.html
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111127-080226-396cc612.html
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111127-080948-c50d9e49.html
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111127-081708-0fd5eb95.html

First match starting with a draw: 0:0
Somehow boring board, Menangerie is there without thrash, Fairgrounds also maybe with Ironworks, I didn't really know and went BM-HorseTrader, has the option with +buy to go for the Fairgrounds later. Rabid went more diverse for the Fairgrounds via Ironworks, in the end we draw and started the match again.
Second match 1:0:
There's Tunnel and Hoard for getting Gold without buying it. I thought I would hoard into the Tunnels for money, but Rabid remade his Estates, so I where forced to buy early, too. Loaded up with some Festival/Library stuff to get the Hoards, which definitely was a mistake. Should have just stick to the Apprentice, which of course is fueled well with all these free Golds. And which does not combo at all with the Lib.
Third: 1:1:
Both started Masquerade, I went for Witch which probably is not the best against 2 Masquerades. Felt like I was behind in the middle of the game, but then the Festivals were getting low. With the Bridge I picked up earlier I could get some Cities and clean the Festivals, grabbing some more Bridges and support for the Megaturn at the end. Had some luck that despite all my actions, I always had a crappy Copper to pass at his Masquerades
Fourth: 1:1 (draw again)
Alchemist-Outpost from both of us. I got 2 Potions which almost always sticked together, and almost never hit the Alchemist stack, so I again felt loosing. But in the last turn, Rabid's Potion also missed, and he managed to  get 2 Estates in his turn (including Outpost). My Potion hit the Alchemists and I could get doubleProvince + Estate for another draw.  So the luck came back to me at the time I needed it. Though of course one more tiny little coin would have been nice ;)
Five: 2:1
I went HuntingParty-Familiar, he just ate all the curses, developed his Estates and went full HP.  I bought a cache and felt really clever, as the HP now have 2 $3-coins to hit. Anyway, I lost, the HP defended very well against the Curses. Nevertheless I think some interesting questions to ask for the simulator here, espescially what the HP really thinks about the Cache.  And is the HP good against all Cursers, or is this because the Familiar does not really combo well because of the Potion?
Six: 3:1
SeaHag-Libaray-Warehouse-Inn-Forge somehow from both of us, I went for the Hag more agressively, but he managed to forge much better at the beginning, so I again felt like having not much chance and this time I didn't manage to steal a tie.
Seventh: 3:2
Boring BM-Wharf with a Tournament as a bonus against Monument-Nobles. Went in front quite fastly and managed to stay there comfortably.
Eigth: 4:2
I again started BM, this time Courtyard, added a Margrave and a Carthographer. Think one Gold was not enough, but at the time I realized it was too late. Last shuffle started with the fabulous green-only hand, followed by a $7 which I think would have won me the game if it would have been $8, but as I said, I think the mistake was only getting one Gold.

So thanks for the games again, much fun in the Finals. And thanks for organizing.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2011, 03:57:56 am by DStu »
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shark_bait

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Final 4
« Reply #128 on: November 27, 2011, 12:43:41 pm »
0

Congrats to Rabid on advancing.  Reyk and I were originally planning on playing this afternoon, but I had some family traditions that came up, so were now planning on playing Tuesday at 7:00 pm GMT.  One of us will post our games when we finish.
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Hello.  Name's Bruce.  It's all right.  I understand.  Why trust a shark, right?

Is quite curious - Who is the mystical "Celestial Chameleon"?

DG

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Final 4
« Reply #129 on: November 27, 2011, 03:42:52 pm »
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Quote
And is the HP good against all Cursers, or is this because the Familiar does not really combo well because of the Potion?
The third familiar almost certainly wasn't necessary and I suspect that taking a develop/remake instead would have given you a favourable continuation. In general, the hunting parties will discard any number of curses however once you get so many curses in a deck the 5 card hands might become fatally poor. Shrinking the deck gives a much better chance of consistent draws.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2011, 07:51:13 pm by DG »
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Reyk

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Final 4
« Reply #130 on: November 29, 2011, 03:57:50 pm »
0

I've won a thrilling 4:3 match against shark bait.

He totally outplayed me in the beginning - especially in the first and third games to go for a 3-0 lead.
Fourth game was a Ironworks-Garden 4-4 split which I've won due to a 32-29(!) card split. It could have been over with a very clear 4-0 at this point. Game 5 I've won by just 1 point. Game 6 was the only game where I played better I guess.
 
A very lucky comeback - I will post the games via CR tomorrow and comment a bit more.

PS: The final is scheduled for sunday.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2011, 04:40:23 pm by Reyk »
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Reyk

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Final 4
« Reply #131 on: November 30, 2011, 07:53:30 am »
+2

My comments on the games (part I)

1) shark_bait - califax 13-7
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111129-111501-52294134.html

Ironworks/Ambassador brutally outplayed my Ambassador/Ambassador. Courtyard/Throne were the key cards for Ironworks to get. Later backup by 1 Festival/1 Witch wasn't anymore important. Shark_bait got things started turn 10 with Throne/Throne/Cortyard followed by quadruple Amb and I was very much in trouble.

This took me a bit by surprise - I havn't seen this particular combination of cards. It still seems a bit risky, but worked out perfectly.

2) califax - shark_bait 34-44
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111129-113923-66864fcc.html

A very interesting setup with 7 or 8 cards being interesting: cards in supply: Coppersmith, Ghost Ship, Inn, Menagerie, Saboteur, Shanty Town, Trade Route, Woodcutter, Workshop, and Young Witch ( Courtyard as bane)

I really liked the non identical starting hands here - they made the game very interesting. I had a 5-2 start which looks very good and ... probably misplayed it. There are 3 options I see:
1) Young Witch/Courtyard
2) Inn/see what you get (probably get some Courtyards and maybe pass on Young Witch, because Trade Route can handle some mild cursing)
3) Ghost Ship/Courtyard

I chose 3) because I didn't want to give up a potential 5-2 advantage but this may well be the weakest option. I thougt that Menagerie wasn't that good apart from countering Ghost Ship and getting it somewhat conflicting with getting banes, but my Double Young Witch did a poor job. The Witches were blocked 10 times and all other things (number of banes) being equal my double Witch only managed a 4-4 curse split against shark_bait's one Witch.

Shark's Workshop was nice too, because there are many interesting 3$ cost cards, but whith all these terminals to start with I had no room for this. Playing this again I wouldn't buy Ghost Ship and probably go with Inn as it has good synergies with the bane and the Menagerie.

3) califax - shark_bait 42-52
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111129-115306-5a16a7d6.html

Very instructive. You know - Duke is such a beautifully designed card. I like it myself quite a bit, but here I was tempted to play Treasure Map/Warehouse. Combine this with Council room/Apprentice and Provinces seem to sell out fast enough. Plus you really don't want to underbuy even more for 12$ ...
I didn't play my second warehouse turn 5 leaving 6 cards with 2 Treasure Maps and it worked. But ...

Shark_bait opened Smugglers/Potion (for University) and later used the university gained Apprentices to great effect. He converted (later bought) Treasure Maps at turn 10, but couldn't resist to buy Province at turn 11 either ;-) (Duchy for 12$ might have been even better in an otherwise very well played game). With his Smugglers/Apprentices he was much better armed for a Duchy race and could easily catch up (my leed was 21-4 at some point). I stalled before getting that last Province.

A well deserved 3-0 lead - I didn't believe in some sort of comeback at this point at all.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 08:28:39 am by Reyk »
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Reyk

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Final 4
« Reply #132 on: November 30, 2011, 10:36:20 am »
+1

My comments on the games (part II)

4) califax - shark_bait 20-17
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111129-120056-5ec27a0a.html

I pretty much have trouble playing Garden/Ironworks mirrors. When to start buying Gardens? Can you afford to take some Silver and how much? Anyway there always seems to be quite a bit of luck involved because at some point you have to use Ironworks for Gardens and than you can draw either money for another $4 or an Ironworks dead.

The game offered nethertheless some decisions. At 3$ Scheme, Silver, Lighthouse are competing. We pretty much mirrored these. Scheme seems to be high priority early. Silver/Lighthouse than seem to be a close call (there is still Bureaucrat around).

The interesting question is whether to take Bureaucrat or not. Shark_bait took it - I don't like it so much here, because you can't use Ironworks on point cards with Bureaucrat in hand. On the other side it might give you the coin advantage for a decisive Duchy ...

Shark_bait started taking Gardens as soon as turn 4. The gardens were split evenly - I won the estate race 8-6. At turn 11 however shark_bait used his Ironworks on Silver to buy a Duchy. With the drawback that he couldn't use his Bureaucrat this turn. The game was very near the 3pile ending. If you can't afford a Duchy yourself you will inevitably lose by 1 point - unless there is a difference in garden points ...

You know the end already. Shark_bait finished the game at turn 12 (I would have done it otherwise) with 29 cards. It might not be totally illogial given my starting player advantage and the 7-3 Ironworks split. But still very unlucky for Shark_bait who would have ended the match with a crushing 4-0 if he only had one more card.

5) shark_bait - califax 37-38
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111129-122451-d44add22.html

An interesting board (Edit: I don't consider it interesting anymore - just Jack + BM is the way to go). Jack and Stables are screaming for some sort of BM, but there are alternative point cards and Pirate Ship too.
We both started Haven/Jack (I doubled Jack) and  decided to give the ships a try later, because the Nobles/Fairgrounds have potential to prolong the game, plus Jack gives some target and the ship helps to get 10 different cards. I'm still not sure on this as you might want the actions for Nobles. My ships were a bit unlucky, but shark_bait on the other hand missklicked at turn 7 with 9$ and an Estate in hand. He bought Fairgrounds thinking it was Farmland.

There was some Penultimate Province Rule dancing later. When shark_bait broke the rule the game ended on my turn by just 1 point. Lucky again.

6) shark_bait - califax 6-30
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111129-123551-34230ee5.html

Masquerade, Quarry, Grand Market.
Shark_bait spent 5$ at turn 3 (and again at turn 5) for an Upgrade - I for the second Quarry. I really believe the latter is better here. Maybe his plan was to upgrade Upgrades into Grand Markets, but it didn't work out.
You still have to be lucky to draw the Quarries together, but I managed this at turn 6 and then you have a nice snowball effect.

7) shark_bait - califax 37-45
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111129-124828-30f6008b.html

A mirror match around Young Witch, Smugglers (Bane) and Vault.

I wasn't happy with 5-2 here (Militia as a potential Vault counter + YW priority), but YW/Haven wasn't so bad. It doesn't help to put aside Smugglers to bane Young Witch, but it does help to play one each turn. Plus shark_bait was unlucky and drew his Witch only at turn 5.
I correctly guessed his Smugglers at turn 3 (with good chances - it still could have been the other way round: Witch at turn 4 and Smugglers at turn 5 for shark_bait) and havened the Witch aside to give the only Curse of the game at turn 4.

Smugglers as bane are funny - they smuggle each other around quite a bit. Soon nobody even tried to play Young Witch.

I noticed an interesting moment at turn 9 when shark_bait took a Gold for $7. Maybe he feared the Bank would underperform, but I still think it will make 3$. With so many Smugglers around I would have taken it instead. As it was I could smuggle the Gold.

Anyway I probably had simply more favorable draws this game.


A match with some mistakes, but some nice dramaturgy too (at least if you win ;-)) Despite being outclassed by shark_bait at the beginning I enjoyed the whole match. Btw: 5 out of 7 games saw second seat winning.


As we're getting closer to the finals, I'm wondering if the players in the finals might be willing to do a write-up of their matches (or maybe the most interesting 2 matches) at the level of depth that the blog had with the annotated games feature. I, for one, would love to hear how the players thought about some of the key turn-by-turn decisions, and this seems an easy way to generate some more front-page content for the blog. Would the players left in the tournament be interested in doing that?

I think the most instructive game is shark_bait's win in game 3. Maybe I didn't understand enough to comment on this more.

In general we had very interesting setups. Games 2, 3, 5 provide very good raw material for the Kingdom Design Challenge. I appreciate more comments on the games.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2011, 05:00:40 am by Reyk »
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Mean Mr Mustard

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Final 4
« Reply #133 on: November 30, 2011, 11:12:33 am »
0

<b>Round Four Results</b>


<s>1. shark_bait (1)</s>
vs.
<b>1. califax (4)</b>

<s>5. Dstu (19)</s>
vs.
<b>3. Rabid (10)</b>
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Jake <a href=http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201203/17/game-20120317-030206-6456f97c.html>opening: opening: Silver / Jack of All Trades</a>
<b>IsoDom1 Winner:  shark_bait
IsoDom2 Winner: Rabid
Isodom3 Winner: Fabian</b>
Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalie ar Atanatári, Utúlie'n auré!

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Final 4
« Reply #134 on: November 30, 2011, 12:01:07 pm »
+1

@Reyk: Ironworks/Gardens is quite simple to play:

Get 2 Ironworks, then start greening

Really, there's nothing to it.

Scheme is a nice idea, but in practice not opening Silver means you won't be able to buy a Duchy which are really really good in this matchup because Gardens will often not reach 3 VP in these lightning fast games so the extra point of the Duchy should give you the win.

Bureaucrat prolongs the game so I'd only buy it if you were unlucky in the Gardens split and need to catch up with Duchies.
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Reyk

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Final 4
« Reply #135 on: November 30, 2011, 12:19:18 pm »
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You are probably right - I could feel the pain not being able to buy that Duchy. On the other hand the Duchy will not equalize a 5-3 Garden split even if they go to 29 only. Plus Scheme might be the reason for reaching 30 cards ...

Hm, interesting. I guess some simulator knows more and you've already checked it ;-)
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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Final 4
« Reply #136 on: November 30, 2011, 12:33:29 pm »
+1

@Reyk: the Jack game was played...how should I put this mildly... horribly by both players  :o

Jack is happiest when you buy money and let him do his thing finishing the game in 15 turns. Adding all the actions just lessens its effectiveness. Pirate Ship will never match Jack's speed. Stables will stop Jack from drawing cards. Haven's effect will let it draw an extra card once and no cards once so it evens out and it baffles me that you're both buying Havens over Silver in what's basically a big money game with no real engine to be build. Nobles are fine of course (extra VP), but all the other stuff just gets in the way (even if it gets Fairgrounds to 4VP).
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greatexpectations

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Final 4
« Reply #137 on: November 30, 2011, 12:49:13 pm »
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Jack is happiest when you buy money and let him do his thing finishing the game in 15 turns. Adding all the actions just lessens its effectiveness. Pirate Ship will never match Jack's speed.

anectdotally, i would add that courtyard and mint (say 3+ copper around turns 4-6) are two cards that can help speed up jack just a little.

edit: i can hit 4 provinces and 2 duchy's in 14 turns (solitaire) pretty reliably with a single mint.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 01:11:54 pm by greatexpectations »
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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Final 4
« Reply #138 on: November 30, 2011, 01:18:40 pm »
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Another card that speeds jack up dramatically:  Opposing bishops. 
I played an entertaining 3p game earlier today where i had 5 provinces on turn 14 (and was poised to buy a 6th on 15) because both opponents kindly set me up with bishops.  My jacks trashed the estates, their bishops trashed the coppers, and my money just bought more money.  That was another game where I took an early 8$ hand for a gold, btw.  It's possible I didn't need to do that, even, but I hadn't expected the deck to get as fast as it did.
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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Final 4
« Reply #139 on: November 30, 2011, 01:20:26 pm »
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@Reyk: the Jack game was played...how should I put this mildly... horribly by both players  :o

Jack is happiest when you buy money and let him do his thing finishing the game in 15 turns. Adding all the actions just lessens its effectiveness. Pirate Ship will never match Jack's speed. Stables will stop Jack from drawing cards. Haven's effect will let it draw an extra card once and no cards once so it evens out and it baffles me that you're both buying Havens over Silver in what's basically a big money game with no real engine to be build. Nobles are fine of course (extra VP), but all the other stuff just gets in the way (even if it gets Fairgrounds to 4VP).

Fishing Village and Oasis are two cards I'll buy over Silver in Jack games; it's not a huge difference but it's at least somewhat helpful to have non-terminal cash that decreases your handsize on turns where you play Jack.

Most of the time I simply can't bear to play Jack "correctly", so I'm always glad to see at least some other actions that don't hurt a Jack deck.
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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Final 4
« Reply #140 on: November 30, 2011, 01:29:04 pm »
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Fishing Village and Oasis are two cards I'll buy over Silver in Jack games; it's not a huge difference but it's at least somewhat helpful to have non-terminal cash that decreases your handsize on turns where you play Jack.

Oasis is pretty good, but I really like Fishing Village for this. It contributes to the next turn, and if you have a couple it's not even necessarily a disaster if Jack pulls the other one as you may still have an action to play it.
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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Final 4
« Reply #141 on: November 30, 2011, 01:42:20 pm »
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Fishing Village and Oasis are two cards I'll buy over Silver in Jack games; it's not a huge difference but it's at least somewhat helpful to have non-terminal cash that decreases your handsize on turns where you play Jack.

Oasis is pretty good, but I really like Fishing Village for this. It contributes to the next turn, and if you have a couple it's not even necessarily a disaster if Jack pulls the other one as you may still have an action to play it.

Oh, sure, as is so often the case, Fishing Village is stronger here.
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Reyk

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Final 4
« Reply #142 on: November 30, 2011, 01:55:31 pm »
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@Reyk: the Jack game was played...how should I put this mildly... horribly by both players  :o

Jack is happiest when you buy money and let him do his thing finishing the game in 15 turns.

You are probably right here too. Jack isn't my friend and I haven't played Hinterland so much.
But I was still concerned about that 15 turn number in front of two alternative victory card sources. How much does Jack stall if one player basically doesn't buy Provinces and constantly hits the Jack deck with ships?

These were my concerns - probably not justified as 10 cards seems to be the maximum for Fairgrounds here. In a pure Jack deck Silver is definitely better than Haven, but this wasn't the intention from the very beginning. But then again you are right that Jack doesn't fit into the intended deck.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 01:58:04 pm by Reyk »
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olneyce

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Final 4
« Reply #143 on: November 30, 2011, 02:22:38 pm »
+1

But I was still concerned about that 15 turn number in front of two alternative victory card sources. How much does Jack stall if one player basically doesn't buy Provinces and constantly hits the Jack deck with ships?
Not really very much, I don't think.  Jack can usually get all 8 Provinces at ~20 turns.  I've done it as quickly as 17 turns.  Jack decks don't really ever stall, since every time you play it, you're adding silver.  And anytime you can't buy a Province, you most likely can buy a Gold.  With Pirate Ships it would take a bit longer.  But certainly not so long that they could gain enough alternate victory points to match it.
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Reyk

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Final 4
« Reply #144 on: November 30, 2011, 02:51:22 pm »
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Yes, Geronimoo, olneyce - you are right. He simply buys all the Provinces. I just tried it (by no means perfect play - but enough evidence):

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/30/game-20111130-114728-782e200d.html

Impressive!
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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Final 4
« Reply #145 on: November 30, 2011, 03:19:03 pm »
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Oh, sure, as is so often the case, Fishing Village is stronger here.

Especially if there are other terminals worth playing, Native Village actually meshes very well with Jack too. It becomes much cheaper to build mega-turns with Native Village when you can often play a Jack to draw back up to 5 on the same turn, or if you can do other nifty terminal things before playing the Jack.
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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Final 4
« Reply #146 on: November 30, 2011, 03:24:26 pm »
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Quote
But I was still concerned about that 15 turn number in front of two alternative victory card sources. How much does Jack stall if one player basically doesn't buy Provinces and constantly hits the Jack deck with ships?
Not much. In this kingdom you can pad out a deck with nobles and festivals and in your game the pirates come in far too late to be effective. The fairgrounds do make a difference since the game is potentially much longer but the good partner cards for the pirate (stables and festivals) are bottlenecked at cost 5, hindering the pirate. If a deck is good enough to buy all those 5 cost cards to support the pirate then it could probably win without a pirate anyway.
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Mean Mr Mustard

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Final 4
« Reply #147 on: November 30, 2011, 03:39:07 pm »
0

I would like to ask a question to you guys:  Is there any point  at this time to start planning Isodom 3?  Is there enough interest in having a small tourney while the main site tournament is in effect? 
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Jake <a href=http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201203/17/game-20120317-030206-6456f97c.html>opening: opening: Silver / Jack of All Trades</a>
<b>IsoDom1 Winner:  shark_bait
IsoDom2 Winner: Rabid
Isodom3 Winner: Fabian</b>
Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalie ar Atanatári, Utúlie'n auré!

DG

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Final 4
« Reply #148 on: November 30, 2011, 05:34:56 pm »
+1

Quote
Is there enough interest in having a small tourney while the main site tournament is in effect?
Take a break. The BGG league was good while it lasted but it ran too frequently.
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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Final 4
« Reply #149 on: November 30, 2011, 06:02:07 pm »
0

I would be up for another event, but agree a break would be good.
Maybe a 1 day or 1 week event over Xmas week?
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painted_cow

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Final 4
« Reply #150 on: November 30, 2011, 09:22:29 pm »
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I would also wait a bit, maybe get it started in the new year, then you have a good name for it too :D New Years Dominion Tournament :-)
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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Final 4
« Reply #151 on: December 04, 2011, 01:53:55 pm »
+1

Califax and I just finished the final. 4 - 3 to me in a very close match.

Game 1 (Missing Log) GM, Vault, Trading post, IGG, Moneylender, Festival, warehouse, cellar, ??, ??

Califax  IGG / Cellar  vs Rabid Moneylender / warehouse (Silver?)     

5/2 vs 4/3 on this board seems really bad, my plan was moneylender < vault < GM + warehouses to cycle the curses. I drowned in curses, not sure if I should have been competing for IGG or maybe tried Trading Post?

Game 2
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/04/game-20111204-092553-71e7b9a1.html

Rabid Silver / Black Market   vs   Califax  Silver / Black Market

My plan was to get either trashing or cursing out of the BM to reduce the power of IGG.
T3 I took Governor over trade routes not sure if this was correct.
From then on the plan was haven & governor to enable bank.
IGG + duke might be worth analysing further.

Game 3
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/04/game-20111204-094020-424cc85d.html

Califax  Scheme / Salvager --  vs Rabid Salvager / Silver

Califax got the nice T3 draw of Scheme + Salv + Est, do the same on T4.
My plan was to let Califax start building Conspirators then embargo them, my draws didn't really cooperate, but my plan was probably bad as well. I got out played on this game.

Game 4
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/04/game-20111204-094713-bf09d5bf.html

Rabid Steward / Caravan   vs   Califax  S / S into 2 Margraves.

Might be worth simulating this one.
I got the lucky T4 of Stewed + 2E and Califax didn't draw $5 until T5.
Bit of card counting on T7 let me steward for +2 cards and buy gold, rather than use the +2$, speeding up deck cycling slightly.

Game 5
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/04/game-20111204-100856-1d4eaca5.html

Rabid Remodel / Chapel   vs   Califax  Horse Traders / Chapel

The only win for player 2 in the match.
Really strange game with us both avoiding Torturer + farming village.
I have no idea what the correct play on this board is, I got the lucky remodel gold > Prov + buy prov on T14 for a 4 -2 lead as 2nd player. I believe from chat Califax was $1 short of remodel gold prov, buy prov, buy estate for the win. we then duchy danced for a bit until I drew my gold + remodel again.

Game 6
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/04/game-20111204-102136-128dcd0b.html

Califax  Trader / Silver into Dukes --  vs Rabid Potion / Silver into fail.

I had some crazy idea of Ghost Ships slowing the Duke rush down.
I was wrong.

Game 7
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/04/game-20111204-103606-aa41feb8.html

Rabid Farming Village / Silver   vs   Califax  Silver /  Silver

My plan was Forge Peddlers into prov's, with farming village + margrave as the draw engine.
Worked quite well, I wanted to add talisman as well, but couldn't fit it in.
 

Well played Califax, thanks for the enjoyable match.

Looking forward to defending the title in IsoDom 3.  ;)

Rabid
« Last Edit: December 04, 2011, 02:36:24 pm by Rabid »
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Reyk

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Final 4
« Reply #152 on: December 04, 2011, 01:54:10 pm »
0

Congrats to Rabid for winning the tournament after a 4:3 final victory!
I'm sure comments on the games will follow. I have to wait for CR.
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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Final 4
« Reply #153 on: December 04, 2011, 02:08:05 pm »
0


Califax  IGG --  vs Rabid Moneylender / Silver     

My plan, 4/3 vs 5/2 on this board seems really bad, my plan was vault into GM + warehouses to cycle the curses. I drowned in curses, not sure if I should have been competing for IGG or maybe tried Trading Post?

I didn't save it either. Starting player + 5-2 was probably huge although the choice wasn't easy.

I will go into detail for the other games later. For now I'm totally unhappy with my forge buy in the last game - this could and should have been a Province instead as your double Margrave cycles my deck and their are still chances. I've tried things like Farming Village turn 1 myself and it didn't turn out well for me. Later there was 6$ + 3$ next turn - so decided to give up on Peddlers.
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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Final 4
« Reply #154 on: December 04, 2011, 02:11:16 pm »
0

Game 2
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/04/game-20111204-092553-71e7b9a1.html

Rabid Silver / Black Market   vs   Califax  Silver / Black Market
From then on the plan was haven & governor to enable bank.
IGG + duke might be worth analysing further.

I guess that IGG + Duke is hard to make work because of premature 3pile ending. I didn't plan the quick end well here.
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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Final 4
« Reply #155 on: December 04, 2011, 02:16:37 pm »
0

I got so confused for a second, trying to input this data into the bracket.  "Who is califax? He's not playing Rabid this round ..."
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Reyk

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Final 4
« Reply #156 on: December 04, 2011, 02:42:56 pm »
+1

Game 4
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/04/game-20111204-094713-bf09d5bf.html

Rabid Steward / Caravan   vs   Califax  S / S into 2 Margraves.

Might be worth simulating this one.
I got the lucky T4 of Stewed + 2E and Califax didn't draw $5 until T5.
Bit of card counting on T7 let me steward for +2 cards and buy gold, rather than use the +2$, speeding up deck cycling slightly.

Yes simulation would be interesting. Starting Silver/Silver and playing the first Silver turn 5 indeed slowed me down a bit.

Game 5
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/04/game-20111204-100856-1d4eaca5.html

Rabid Remodel / Chapel   vs   Califax  Horse Traders / Chapel

The only win for player 2 in the match.
Really strange game with us both avoiding Torturer + farming village.
I have no idea what the correct play on this board is, I got the lucky remodel gold > Prov + buy prov on T14 for a 4 -2 lead as 2nd player. I believe from chat Califax was $1 short of remodel gold prov, buy prov, buy estate for the win. we then duchy danced for a bit until I drew my gold + remodel again.

This one I have to study closer ;-) And I don't have an idea how to play it either ...
Probably some misplay somewhere. At turn 15 after your double Province I was 1$ short for Province(via Remodel), Province, Estate win. But the double Province definitely put pressure on me as an equal score wouldn't have helped.

Game 6
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/04/game-20111204-102136-128dcd0b.html

Califax  Trader / Silver into Dukes --  vs Rabid Potion / Silver into fail.

I had some crazy idea of Ghost Ships slowing the Duke rush down.
I was wrong.

Ghost Ship is annoying although Haven/Trader help a bit. The real problem imho is Alchemists without +buy.
For game 7 see above.

Thx again for the match and thx to Mean Mr. Mustard for not only confusing theory ;-) but organizing a fun tournament!



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Mean Mr Mustard

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Final 4
« Reply #157 on: December 04, 2011, 06:56:29 pm »
0

Nice work, Rabid.
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Jake <a href=http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201203/17/game-20120317-030206-6456f97c.html>opening: opening: Silver / Jack of All Trades</a>
<b>IsoDom1 Winner:  shark_bait
IsoDom2 Winner: Rabid
Isodom3 Winner: Fabian</b>
Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalie ar Atanatári, Utúlie'n auré!

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Final 4
« Reply #158 on: December 04, 2011, 07:00:32 pm »
0

Congratulations to Rabid!  And good work nonetheless Reyk, getting second is good too.
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Re: IsoDom 2 Final
« Reply #159 on: December 04, 2011, 11:09:05 pm »
+2

Califax and I just finished the final. 4 - 3 to me in a very close match.

Game 1 (Missing Log) GM, Vault, Trading post, IGG, Moneylender, Festival, warehouse, cellar, ??, ??

Califax  IGG / Cellar  vs Rabid Moneylender / warehouse (Silver?)     

5/2 vs 4/3 on this board seems really bad, my plan was moneylender < vault < GM + warehouses to cycle the curses. I drowned in curses, not sure if I should have been competing for IGG or maybe tried Trading Post?
It's hard for me to think that can compete with the IGG rush. Problem is, once you warehouse, Vault-> GM requires you to get a silver. Okay, not impossible, but it's going to be a bit tough to get that engine going with the curses flying in. I would have definitely ran for the IGGs, probably with some warehouse support. Probably opened Warehouse/silver and gotten crushed against 5/2 open anyway.

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Game 2
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/04/game-20111204-092553-71e7b9a1.html

Rabid Silver / Black Market   vs   Califax  Silver / Black Market

My plan was to get either trashing or cursing out of the BM to reduce the power of IGG.
T3 I took Governor over trade routes not sure if this was correct.
From then on the plan was haven & governor to enable bank.
IGG + duke might be worth analysing further.
This screams IGG to me! Can't see what was in the BM other than what you guys pulled, but I don't see a reason to grab one... 'cept that there's no real reason not to either - not like there's going to be any other terminals if you don't pull anything out of the BM deck. But I'd go IGG with great Duke and Silk road support to beat out any alternative strategy. Seems pretty darn strong. Heck, you've even got bank if you want, which is also good with IGG.

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Game 3
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/04/game-20111204-094020-424cc85d.html

Califax  Scheme / Salvager --  vs Rabid Salvager / Silver

Califax got the nice T3 draw of Scheme + Salv + Est, do the same on T4.
My plan was to let Califax start building Conspirators then embargo them, my draws didn't really cooperate, but my plan was probably bad as well. I got out played on this game.
I'd probably go monument scheme, heading for conspirators on remaining 4+ and schemes on remaining 3s. And looking out for 3 piles. You guys may be right about wanting the salvagers though. Embargo... well, it's sort of a high variance card. You've got to draw it at the right time, and you've got to buy it to set up for that, which is often before you want to. It's tough to lock somebody out of something so cheap, unless it's even more important than that, or maybe you open embargo, which is usually not the best idea (they can adapt to whatever you embargo probably at that point) unless maybe you get a nice 5/2. Had a game recently where I embargoed silver on turn 3 or 4. Very fun.

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Game 4
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/04/game-20111204-094713-bf09d5bf.html

Rabid Steward / Caravan   vs   Califax  S / S into 2 Margraves.

Might be worth simulating this one.
I got the lucky T4 of Stewed + 2E and Califax didn't draw $5 until T5.
Bit of card counting on T7 let me steward for +2 cards and buy gold, rather than use the +2$, speeding up deck cycling slightly.

That is a huge spell of luck. I'd like to see the sims, 'cause I've got some other ideas here too.

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Game 5
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/04/game-20111204-100856-1d4eaca5.html

Rabid Remodel / Chapel   vs   Califax  Horse Traders / Chapel

The only win for player 2 in the match.
Really strange game with us both avoiding Torturer + farming village.
I have no idea what the correct play on this board is, I got the lucky remodel gold > Prov + buy prov on T14 for a 4 -2 lead as 2nd player. I believe from chat Califax was $1 short of remodel gold prov, buy prov, buy estate for the win. we then duchy danced for a bit until I drew my gold + remodel again.
You know, I've never really liked remodel/chapel, though I know it's very strong. Just never really gotten the feel for it. HT/Chapel on the other hand, I don't understand at all. A thin chapel deck does not seem like where I'd want to use the Horse Traders effect. But hey, I guess it wasn't that bad?

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Game 6
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/04/game-20111204-102136-128dcd0b.html

Califax  Trader / Silver into Dukes --  vs Rabid Potion / Silver into fail.

I had some crazy idea of Ghost Ships slowing the Duke rush down.
I was wrong.

I do think that Ghost ship can slow duke down. But you need to be able to spam it every turn. And you need to do that pretty quick. And that's also gonna cost you time. Maybe too much, in the general case. But I really hate alchemist here. There's strongish alternatives on the board, and alchemist is SO slow, especially in province games, especially with no +buy. If you hit 2p, you're toast. If you make your alchemist, you aren't in great shape even then. I also don't think it helped for you to break off from your plan to try and fight him, but it was probably already pretty bad.

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Game 7
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/04/game-20111204-103606-aa41feb8.html

Rabid Farming Village / Silver   vs   Califax  Silver /  Silver

My plan was Forge Peddlers into prov's, with farming village + margrave as the draw engine.
Worked quite well, I wanted to add talisman as well, but couldn't fit it in.
Don't like the forge for Califax here. It's a bit too late to try to do what you're doing - the peddlers will run too fast - and otherwise it does not fit very well with his deck. At that point, I'd have just margrave+moneyed... and probably lost. I'm pretty darn impressed with how fast your plan came into being, only I wonder how lucky you were to scrape up the Margrave that fast. Actually, it probably REALLY helped you here that the village was farming. Nothing else would work so well, though obviously worker's opens up it's own tricks (hamlet too)

Loved the match overall, and I think it was very well played, especially under the pressure of the finals. Looking forward to the next tournament... oh wait, I'm already in it ;)

Reyk

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Re: IsoDom 2 Match-ups Final 4
« Reply #160 on: December 05, 2011, 04:16:15 am »
0

Thx for commenting, WW.

Califax and I just finished the final. 4 - 3 to me in a very close match.

Game 1 (Missing Log) GM, Vault, Trading post, IGG, Moneylender, Festival, warehouse, cellar, ??, ??

Califax  IGG / Cellar  vs Rabid Moneylender / warehouse (Silver?)     

5/2 vs 4/3 on this board seems really bad, my plan was moneylender < vault < GM + warehouses to cycle the curses. I drowned in curses, not sure if I should have been competing for IGG or maybe tried Trading Post?
It's hard for me to think that can compete with the IGG rush. Problem is, once you warehouse, Vault-> GM requires you to get a silver. Okay, not impossible, but it's going to be a bit tough to get that engine going with the curses flying in. I would have definitely ran for the IGGs, probably with some warehouse support. Probably opened Warehouse/silver and gotten crushed against 5/2 open anyway.


I aggree and as I wrote, 5-2 is hard to overcome here. Log for game 1:
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111204-091432-a660d2b1.html

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111204-092553-71e7b9a1.html

This screams IGG to me! Can't see what was in the BM other than what you guys pulled, but I don't see a reason to grab one... 'cept that there's no real reason not to either

Yes, I saw no reason not to buy it as long it is at least equal to Silver. The only reason not to buy it is that Black Market might set up traps ;-) But I think Trade Route is great and Mountebank could break the IGG/Curse rhythm. But it was played too late for this.


Game 4
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111204-094713-bf09d5bf.html

That is a huge spell of luck. I'd like to see the sims, 'cause I've got some other ideas here too.


Which ones?


Game 5
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111204-100856-1d4eaca5.html

You know, I've never really liked remodel/chapel, though I know it's very strong. Just never really gotten the feel for it. HT/Chapel on the other hand, I don't understand at all. A thin chapel deck does not seem like where I'd want to use the Horse Traders effect. But hey, I guess it wasn't that bad?

HT was the only plus buy (you will use it on spare Estates early and on Provinces late), but Remodel is kind of plus buy too and probably is better here.

Game 7
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111204-103606-aa41feb8.html

Don't like the forge for Califax here.

For now I'm totally unhappy with my forge buy in the last game - this could and should have been a Province instead as your double Margrave cycles my deck and their are still chances.

Yes, as I wrote :-( I knew immedeately, this was a terrible idea. But I already was unsettled and thought, that things go wrong resp. too well for the Peddlers.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2011, 05:21:02 am by Reyk »
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Geronimoo

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Re: IsoDom 2 Final
« Reply #161 on: December 05, 2011, 05:11:45 am »
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According to simulations the Steward/Caravan deck gets crushed by Margrave BM (28%-70%). The simulator doesn't play the Steward as well as Rabid (far from it!) as it always trashes Coppers and Estates when it can and doesn't do any deck tracking. However, I don't think the skill factor is enough to make the Steward/Caravan a winner. (Rabid also had first player advantage which counts for a lot!). Oh and the simulator really hates opening Caravan over Silver...
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Anon79

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Re: IsoDom 2 Final
« Reply #162 on: December 05, 2011, 05:43:42 am »
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The simulator doesn't play the Steward as well as Rabid (far from it!)
On turn 10, Rabid declined to play Steward. Not even for +$2...?

Edit: of course, he discarded it to the Margrave. What was I thinking.
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DG

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Re: IsoDom 2 Final
« Reply #163 on: December 05, 2011, 09:31:13 am »
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For the steward vs margrave game, I think Califax had the option to work with the bad draw and take an envoy on turn 4. In any event, I don't think that steward/caravan is such a bad play even if it isn't optimal. As soon as the steward deck is turned into a compact gold deck then keeping 3 from 6 cards is fine and the margrave attack is ineffective
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Mergus

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Re: IsoDom 2 Final
« Reply #164 on: December 07, 2011, 12:33:36 am »
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Congrats Rabid!
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