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Author Topic: Fixing Dominion  (Read 29298 times)

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Warfreak2

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Re: Fixing Dominion
« Reply #75 on: July 18, 2013, 08:12:25 am »
0

To beat Rebuild in a non-mirror game, you need to build an engine quickly; normally your engine wants an attack to slow the game down to give it time to build, but the strongest attacks like Witch and Mountebank just don't hurt Rebuild enough. Discard attacks like Militia and Goons aren't a big deal because they just need to keep the Rebuild in their hand; maybe they even get to discard the green card they wanted to Rebuild. A random four-card hand against Minion is 20% less likely to contain a Rebuild, but a 20% slowdown for the Rebuild player may not be enough. Trashing attacks like Saboteur, Knights and Swindler can be strong against it, but as usual you need to play them often. Possession is very nice: in the hands of a Possessor, Rebuild is "+1 Action, gain a Province".

In the absence of a fast engine (with strong trashing, Poor House decks can come together really quickly, for example), a fast combo like Hermit/Market Square should win; unfortunately there aren't very many of those. Governor can be pretty fast, the Rebuild player normally won't want a lot of Silver, or have $4s to defensively trash, but nobody really understands Governor, definitely not me! As well as taking the lead, the Rebuild player will trash a lot of VP from the supply, so the presence of alt-VP is good, except for Duke which only helps the Rebuild player.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Fixing Dominion
« Reply #76 on: July 18, 2013, 09:15:22 am »
0

The only cards I tweaked with my gamegroup would be Scout and Rebuild..

Seriously. Why do Rebuild have that extra action? It takes it from being insanely strong too be strictly overpowered and unfun in non-DA games. I mean, there's absolutely no risk in throwing in one or two rebuilds in your deck. If it would be terminal you still have to choose it before the other terminal you wanted. Either I missed out something or DXV did, and it's more likely I did... So, what is rebuilds weakness?

Rebuild's biggest weakness is that sometimes it works too hard.  ;D

I have a "house rule" that I use Shelters whenever Rebuild is on the board. I put "house rule" in quotes because I also do it when I create casual games on Goko.
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Warfreak2

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Re: Fixing Dominion
« Reply #77 on: July 18, 2013, 09:23:35 am »
+4

I feel like making Rebuild terminal, while making it weaker, wouldn't weaken it to the point where it wasn't usually dominant - it would just be more boring. You would play straight Rebuild, rather than Rebuild/Scavenger or Rebuild/Horse Traders, and there would be less strategy involved.
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Asper

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Re: Fixing Dominion
« Reply #78 on: August 11, 2013, 08:57:24 am »
0

Another thing i don't like, but not for balance issues, is that Black Market allows you to buy cards during your action phase. It just feels like that throws a lot of useful rules out of the window, and for no good reason.

Maybe one could fix Rebuild by not allowing players to name a card, don't know. Just plain kill the card, if nothing else works out. I wouldn't miss it.
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achmed_sender

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Re: Fixing Dominion
« Reply #79 on: August 11, 2013, 10:35:25 am »
+3

Maybe one could fix Rebuild by not allowing players to name a card, don't know. Just plain kill the card, if nothing else works out. I wouldn't miss it.

I strongly disagree. The naming part makes the card stronger, yes, but it adds a certain amount of skill. Without the naming part, Rebuild is less strong (still strong!) but also very random. This would suck very hard in any mirror.
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pst

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Re: Fixing Dominion
« Reply #80 on: August 12, 2013, 01:25:58 am »
+9

I wonder what would happen if Rebuild didn't trash cards, but instead returned them to the supply. I think that would give the intended (?) effect without the rush.
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popsofctown

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Re: Fixing Dominion
« Reply #81 on: August 14, 2013, 12:18:01 am »
+3

There's this factor going on here, that, players who are really really good at the game find uses for weak cards, and intermediate players don't.  It's because if you don't have that super epic understanding of the game, [addbuyrule: don't buy Counting House] is going to work better than [addbuyrule: buy Counting House only if 3 +buy sources], or whatever inappropriate conditional way of picking up a card the intermediate player comes up with.  It takes a high level understanding of the game to improve on the "don't get it" buy rule. 

As someone once posted on the forums shortly after Hinterlands came out: "The best way to use Mandarin is to not buy it at all until you hit 30.  Then when you hit 30, only then do you look at Mandarin, think about how you might perhaps use it on that board, and then don't touch it until you hit 40"

So, when you're making a determination about whether a card is truly too weak, you should defer to the best player in the room, really. 

Most cards that degrade the quality of dominion really are the high-power outliers, not the low-power outliers.

If you wanted to make changes regarding the weaker cards, it'd be better to nerf high power cards and let them get stronger as a result, or to experiment with different rules regarding what gets included in the kingdom and what doesn't.  If you want to see Counting House induce more variety in the game, then give it a 30% chance of appearing in addition to the other 10 cards, Counting House is good in like 3% of the games it appears in so you'll get your 1% shakeup.  I'm actually quite interested in the prospect of a Dominion variant that includes nothing but weakish cards, and a large number of them, I think it would create lots of decision intensity.  Stuff like Bureaucrat, Harem, and such, and unpopular engine cards like Walled Village and Council Room. 
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Asper

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Re: Fixing Dominion
« Reply #82 on: August 14, 2013, 09:36:11 am »
0

Maybe one could fix Rebuild by not allowing players to name a card, don't know. Just plain kill the card, if nothing else works out. I wouldn't miss it.

I strongly disagree. The naming part makes the card stronger, yes, but it adds a certain amount of skill. Without the naming part, Rebuild is less strong (still strong!) but also very random. This would suck very hard in any mirror.

It's kill the card, then :P
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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: Fixing Dominion
« Reply #83 on: August 14, 2013, 03:26:27 pm »
0

The problem with "play with the weak kingdom cards" is then money just ends up being super good.
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popsofctown

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Re: Fixing Dominion
« Reply #84 on: August 14, 2013, 03:49:13 pm »
0

The problem with "play with the weak kingdom cards" is then money just ends up being super good.
Even if one of those weak kingdom cards is Noble Brigand?    I would want money to be good sometimes, but to be counterable.  There's enough weak attacks, I think, to at least require a big money strategy to carefully choose some reactions to compete with an engine. 

Tribute could be helpful.  It's weak enough even to make the list in this thread, but it is a pretty powerful punishment for playing BM+X, +4 (cards or coins) is very powerful.  The Tribute player can also buy shitty alt VP cards like Harem to extend the game, extending the phase of the game where "Copper-Copper" doesn't flip too often.  That leads to a Tribute-Tribute mirror, but then you can improve on that by buying Oasis or what have you in order to screw with your opponent's Tributes.

There's also Jester, Oracle, Bureaucrat, Pirate Ship, Noble Brigand, Thief, Saboteur, Rogue(?), Cutpurse(?), to be used ass attacks for the engine player.  There's also probably some cards I'm forgetting.

And perhaps most importantly
Embargo man, Embargo.  So much you can do with that. 
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achmed_sender

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Re: Fixing Dominion
« Reply #85 on: August 14, 2013, 03:54:53 pm »
0

The problem is, many of the cards you listed that could be great in the "weak cards game", won't be enough weak to do it there.
Oasis isn't weak, but this wasn't intentional by you I suppose. Cutpurse, Jester, Oracle and maybe even Tribute I wouldn't think about putting them into such a setup. And Embargo isn't at all weak, WW may agree with me.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2013, 03:56:15 pm by achmed_sender »
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Polk5440

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Re: Fixing Dominion
« Reply #86 on: August 14, 2013, 05:25:11 pm »
0

Most cards that degrade the quality of dominion really are the high-power outliers, not the low-power outliers.

I second that!

Quote
If you wanted to make changes regarding the weaker cards, it'd be better to nerf high power cards and let them get stronger as a result, or to experiment with different rules regarding what gets included in the kingdom and what doesn't.  If you want to see Counting House induce more variety in the game, then give it a 30% chance of appearing in addition to the other 10 cards, Counting House is good in like 3% of the games it appears in so you'll get your 1% shakeup.  I'm actually quite interested in the prospect of a Dominion variant that includes nothing but weakish cards, and a large number of them, I think it would create lots of decision intensity.  Stuff like Bureaucrat, Harem, and such, and unpopular engine cards like Walled Village and Council Room.

This is why I enjoy non-uniform random games like subbing out certain cards, drafting cards in person, veto mode, building your own kingdom, etc. A lot of those "other" cards actually get more play, and you can get more varied games because the strategy-dominating cards aren't on the table as often.
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popsofctown

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Re: Fixing Dominion
« Reply #87 on: August 14, 2013, 06:33:36 pm »
0

The problem is, many of the cards you listed that could be great in the "weak cards game", won't be enough weak to do it there.
Oasis isn't weak, but this wasn't intentional by you I suppose. Cutpurse, Jester, Oracle and maybe even Tribute I wouldn't think about putting them into such a setup. And Embargo isn't at all weak, WW may agree with me.
I think you are misinterpreting my desired power level.  My goal is not at all to stick to cards that are so weak that Scout, Coppersmith, and Counting House are forced to see play.  It is to make a board that does not have any "must have"s.
Cutpurse has a pretty high likelihood of being too strong for the setup, but I will probably have a Library or something in there and maybe that would disincentivize it enough.  Cutpurse is also a lot weaker if the gap between a 4$ card and 5$ card is more narrow, and I imagine in such a setup that would be so.
But, yeah, that was what the question mark was for.

If my goal was to make a board where people were forced to use Counting House and Scout then I definitely would have a problem with BM+X ruling the board.
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markusin

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Re: Fixing Dominion
« Reply #88 on: August 14, 2013, 08:03:06 pm »
+4

Most cards that degrade the quality of dominion really are the high-power outliers, not the low-power outliers.

I second that!

Quote
If you wanted to make changes regarding the weaker cards, it'd be better to nerf high power cards and let them get stronger as a result, or to experiment with different rules regarding what gets included in the kingdom and what doesn't.  If you want to see Counting House induce more variety in the game, then give it a 30% chance of appearing in addition to the other 10 cards, Counting House is good in like 3% of the games it appears in so you'll get your 1% shakeup.  I'm actually quite interested in the prospect of a Dominion variant that includes nothing but weakish cards, and a large number of them, I think it would create lots of decision intensity.  Stuff like Bureaucrat, Harem, and such, and unpopular engine cards like Walled Village and Council Room.

This is why I enjoy non-uniform random games like subbing out certain cards, drafting cards in person, veto mode, building your own kingdom, etc. A lot of those "other" cards actually get more play, and you can get more varied games because the strategy-dominating cards aren't on the table as often.
Yeah I enjoy playing this way too. When we would play IRL, we'd often start with a random kingdom (or like, veen distribution of sets we own), then maybe swap out a card or two for a card that looks more interesting for that board.

While we're on the subject, here's a radical modification to Scout: make it a duration! Scoutpost:

Scout
--------
Action - Duration - $4

+1 action

Now and at the start of your turn: Reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. Put the revealed Victory cards into your hand. Put the other cards on top of your deck in any order.
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sudgy

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Re: Fixing Dominion
« Reply #89 on: August 14, 2013, 08:12:09 pm »
+2

While we're on the subject, here's a radical modification to Scout: make it a duration! Scoutpost:

Scout
--------
Action - Duration - $4

+1 action

Now and at the start of your turn: Reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. Put the revealed Victory cards into your hand. Put the other cards on top of your deck in any order.

Ooh, I do it at the start of the turn I play it?  Excuse me while I go in my time machine...
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

popsofctown

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Re: Fixing Dominion
« Reply #90 on: August 14, 2013, 09:21:06 pm »
+1

Might be the best scout fix i ever saw posted.
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markusin

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Re: Fixing Dominion
« Reply #91 on: August 14, 2013, 10:32:34 pm »
0

While we're on the subject, here's a radical modification to Scout: make it a duration! Scoutpost:

Scout
--------
Action - Duration - $4

+1 action

Now and at the start of your turn: Reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. Put the revealed Victory cards into your hand. Put the other cards on top of your deck in any order.

Ooh, I do it at the start of the turn I play it?  Excuse me while I go in my time machine...
Yeah, that should read "your next turn". I honestly think that would make Scout a bit more of a player.

It's that cantrip Scout we always wanted, but only on the duration turn, and it has the duration drawback of missing the reshuffle more often.
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StrongRhino

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Re: Fixing Dominion
« Reply #92 on: August 14, 2013, 10:47:20 pm »
+2

While we're on the subject, here's a radical modification to Scout: make it a duration! Scoutpost:

Scout
--------
Action - Duration - $4

+1 action

Now and at the start of your turn: Reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. Put the revealed Victory cards into your hand. Put the other cards on top of your deck in any order.

Ooh, I do it at the start of the turn I play it?  Excuse me while I go in my time machine...
it has the duration drawback of missing the reshuffle more often.
Except its scout, so it's actually a plus.

Kidding aside though, that is a cool concept, and theoretically fixes Scout well.
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markusin

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Re: Fixing Dominion
« Reply #93 on: August 15, 2013, 11:03:24 am »
0

While we're on the subject, here's a radical modification to Scout: make it a duration! Scoutpost:

Scout
--------
Action - Duration - $4

+1 action

Now and at the start of your turn: Reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. Put the revealed Victory cards into your hand. Put the other cards on top of your deck in any order.

Ooh, I do it at the start of the turn I play it?  Excuse me while I go in my time machine...
it has the duration drawback of missing the reshuffle more often.
Except its scout, so it's actually a plus.

Kidding aside though, that is a cool concept, and theoretically fixes Scout well.
You know what, I considered that. That possibly can be a plus at times. See, Scout should still kinda suck, maybe even Chancellor Suck, but it doesn't have to Scout suck.
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Asper

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Re: Fixing Dominion
« Reply #94 on: August 16, 2013, 09:55:46 am »
0

While we're on the subject, here's a radical modification to Scout: make it a duration! Scoutpost:

Scout
--------
Action - Duration - $4

+1 action

Now and at the start of your turn: Reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. Put the revealed Victory cards into your hand. Put the other cards on top of your deck in any order.

Ooh, I do it at the start of the turn I play it?  Excuse me while I go in my time machine...
it has the duration drawback of missing the reshuffle more often.
Except its scout, so it's actually a plus.

Kidding aside though, that is a cool concept, and theoretically fixes Scout well.
You know what, I considered that. That possibly can be a plus at times. See, Scout should still kinda suck, maybe even Chancellor Suck, but it doesn't have to Scout suck.

B-...b-but i-i like Chancellor...  :'(
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Stealth Tomato

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Re: Fixing Dominion
« Reply #95 on: August 16, 2013, 11:17:36 am »
+1

Chancellor is kind of like Woodcutter, in that it's been already fixed. That's why DXV printed Nomad Camp and Scavenger.

You could argue that Chancellor and Woodcutter exist to teach concepts. That's why they're in Base. They're simple, not terribly strong, but they do something useful in a way that causes you to consider the relative usefulness of certain benefits (+Buy, and getting to the next shuffle quickly). You don't want these cards to be complex, because then the lesson gets buried, and you don't want them to be overly strong, because then the lesson becomes "this card is really good!" rather than a lesson about the mechanics of Dominion as a whole.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2013, 11:18:51 am by Stealth Tomato »
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AJD

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Re: Fixing Dominion
« Reply #96 on: August 16, 2013, 12:52:32 pm »
+1

Chancellor is kind of like Woodcutter, in that it's been already fixed. That's why DXV printed Nomad Camp and Scavenger.

Eh, Scavenger isn't really a fixed Chancellor. Scavenger's relationship to Chancellor is like Scrying Pool's relationship to Spy: it does the thing, yeah, but it's not really what the card is for.
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dondon151

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Re: Fixing Dominion
« Reply #97 on: August 16, 2013, 01:15:57 pm »
0

It depends on what you think Chancellor is for. If your goal is to play a key card more often, they both do the same thing, but Chancellor much less reliably.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Fixing Dominion
« Reply #98 on: August 16, 2013, 02:01:46 pm »
0

It depends on what you think Chancellor is for. If your goal is to play a key card more often, they both do the same thing, but Chancellor much less reliably.

Unless that key card is non-terminal (Rebuild), neither is great for this purpose.
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dondon151

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Re: Fixing Dominion
« Reply #99 on: August 16, 2013, 02:03:53 pm »
0

I don't care about that. There's clearly a reason why people buy Chancellor or Scavenger at all.
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