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Author Topic: Ironworks + Trader  (Read 11545 times)

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DsnowMan

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Ironworks + Trader
« on: October 28, 2011, 02:08:34 pm »
+1

In case you are wondering, if you Ironworks something (like a Great Hall), then reveal Trader to gain a Silver instead of the Great Hall, you are opening a can of worms.

The correct result is You get the silver, but no bonus. You don't claim the bonus from the first card (+1 card, + 1action for Great Hall), or the +$1 Silver bonus. . So quoth Mr. X.

http://boardgamegeek.com/article/7742414#7742414


Edited
« Last Edit: November 09, 2011, 04:01:24 pm by DsnowMan »
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guided

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Re: Ironworks + Trader
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2011, 02:15:35 pm »
0

Note this interaction is so confusing that Donald wrote up a post explaining why you get no bonus from Ironworks, then changed his mind and ruled that you get the bonus from the original card ;)
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GendoIkari

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Re: Ironworks + Trader
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2011, 02:17:59 pm »
+1

I love the fact that someone thought of a question so confusing (though not involving some never-will-happen situation that requires a specific 5 cards to be on the board or anything) that the creator of the game himself had to change his mind after giving his original answer!
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Ironworks + Trader
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2011, 05:21:20 pm »
0

So the ruling is that "Gain a card costing up to $4" is equivalent to "Choose a card costing up to $4. Gain it." And for the rest of the card, "it" refers to the chosen card (not the gained card). Similarly, for upgrade "Trash a card from your hand" means "Choose a card from your hand. Trash it." In general, "[verb] a card" means "Choose a card. [verb] it."
But his original ruling was that "[verb1] a card. [verb2] it" meant "[verb] a card. [verb2] the [verb1]ed card".
I think I liked the one he settled on. Seems simpler, if nothing else.

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guided

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Re: Ironworks + Trader
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2011, 06:09:50 pm »
+1

So the ruling is that "Gain a card costing up to $4" is equivalent to "Choose a card costing up to $4. Gain it." And for the rest of the card, "it" refers to the chosen card (not the gained card). Similarly, for upgrade "Trash a card from your hand" means "Choose a card from your hand. Trash it." In general, "[verb] a card" means "Choose a card. [verb] it."
But his original ruling was that "[verb1] a card. [verb2] it" meant "[verb] a card. [verb2] the [verb1]ed card".
I think I liked the one he settled on. Seems simpler, if nothing else.
Great way to explain it, though it could really use more blue dogs.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Ironworks + Trader
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2011, 03:15:32 am »
0

Thinking more about it, I'm not actually happy with my explanation, or even Donald's ruling, really. If you don't have to actually gain the card to get the benefit, what stops you from just naming a card you can't gain (say one that's not in the supply)? You choose to gain a great hall, which is less than $4. You can't, since there are none, so you gain nothing, but you still do the +1 card/+1 action part?

Or maybe there is just an implicit assumption that "gain a card costing up to $4" means gain a card that is in the supply and costs up to $4?
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Donald X.

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Re: Ironworks + Trader
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2011, 03:20:46 am »
0

Thinking more about it, I'm not actually happy with my explanation, or even Donald's ruling, really. If you don't have to actually gain the card to get the benefit, what stops you from just naming a card you can't gain (say one that's not in the supply)? You choose to gain a great hall, which is less than $4. You can't, since there are none, so you gain nothing, but you still do the +1 card/+1 action part?

Or maybe there is just an implicit assumption that "gain a card costing up to $4" means gain a card that is in the supply and costs up to $4?
What stops you is, you have to pick a card in the supply. You have to pick one if you can and don't get to if you can't.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Ironworks + Trader
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2011, 03:26:21 am »
0

you have to pick a card in the supply
Is the same then true for the card named in contraband?
I guess my question is, does the "in the supply" requirement come from the fact that it's a "gain", or is it true for any time you have to pick a card?
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Donald X.

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Re: Ironworks + Trader
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2011, 03:39:59 am »
0

you have to pick a card in the supply
Is the same then true for the card named in contraband?
I guess my question is, does the "in the supply" requirement come from the fact that it's a "gain", or is it true for any time you have to pick a card?
Contraband does not require you to name a card in the supply, and this is in its FAQ. Wishing Well doesn't say but it's the same, you do not have to name a supply card.

Gained cards come from the supply unless otherwise specified. Workshop etc. don't say this explicitly because by having it be a rule I get to save on all that extra text.
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Donald X.

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Re: Ironworks + Trader
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2011, 12:02:06 pm »
0

btw I switched to "you get nothing" on the strength of an "a" I wasn't paying attention to.
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Anon79

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Re: Ironworks + Trader
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2011, 02:21:06 am »
0

Note this interaction is so confusing that Donald wrote up a post explaining why you get no bonus from Ironworks, then changed his mind and ruled that you get the bonus from the original card ;)
Apparently, this interaction is so confusing that Donald wrote up a post explaining why you get no bonus from Ironworks, then changed his mind and ruled that you get the bonus from the original card, but changed his mind again and reverted to the ruling of no bonus.

And for good measure ruled that Possessed Ironworks get no bonus whatsoever.
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Davio

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Re: Ironworks + Trader
« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2011, 08:21:59 am »
0

I like the "no bonus" decision best.

Trader has the word "instead" on it, which to me is more important than the whole "it" debate of Ironworks.

The timeline to me looks like this:
1. Player plays an Ironworks, deciding (and probably saying out loud) which card to gain from the Supply
2. Trader swoops in, replacing the "gain" event of Ironworks with its own, rendering the rest of Ironworks moot.
3. The gained Silver goes to the discard (barring Watchtower of course).

I like how the Trader event replaces the other gain event, this works for Watchtower too, because the Silver goes to discard instead of topdeck/trash. It doesn't switch the card in mid-air.

For Possession, I also favor the argument that it has a gain event which replaces all other gain events in the possessed player's hand. If the possessed player has a Watchtower, this doesn't mean YOU get to topdeck or trash anything if you gain it.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Ironworks + Trader
« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2011, 08:31:21 am »
0

Of course the unfortunate result of the "no bonus" ruling is that there will never (misclicks or changing your mind aside) be any situation in which doing this is useful - just Ironworks the Silver. Can anyone think of a situation that would prove me wrong?
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rod-

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Re: Ironworks + Trader
« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2011, 10:02:21 am »
0

Wouldn't that imply that all of the "8 provinces on turn 5" threads would be breaking the rules due to relying heavily on ironworks/watchtower interactions?  Or is there something about the way watchtower is worded that makes the replacement gain "different"?
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kn1tt3r

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Re: Ironworks + Trader
« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2011, 10:26:58 am »
0

Wouldn't that imply that all of the "8 provinces on turn 5" threads would be breaking the rules due to relying heavily on ironworks/watchtower interactions?  Or is there something about the way watchtower is worded that makes the replacement gain "different"?
Watchtower does something when you gain a card.
Trader does something instead when you originally would have gained a card.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Ironworks + Trader
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2011, 10:27:44 am »
0

Watchtower can't stop you from gaining a card. It just allows you to do something different with it after you gain it. Once Watchtower starts reacting, Ironworks (or whatever else caused you to gain the card) has totally finished its job. However Trader prevents Ironworks from doing its job and does something else instead.
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theory

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Re: Ironworks + Trader
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2011, 10:39:54 am »
0

I believe Ironworks should give you +$1 for the Silver, and here is my reasoning:

I'm going to dinner with my wife.  The sommelier/waiter comes and explains to me that if I choose the beef entree, I get a red wine; if I choose the fish entree, I get a white wine; if I choose the vegetarian entree, I get a rosť wine.  I decide I want the filet mignon, and tell the waiter accordingly.  But my wife interrupts: "No, honey, you need to be on a diet.  He'll be having the halibut instead."  Surely the restaurant will now bring me a white wine. 

Trader says, "you were going to get something, but instead you're getting this."  To Ironworks, all it should see is that you are getting a Silver.  It doesn't know if you chose the Silver, or if you chose the Great Hall but something else happened to get you a Silver.  It says, gain a card of your choice, I chose, and I ended up getting a Silver.  The fact that I chose at first to get a Great Hall, and then chose to do something else to end up with a Silver instead shouldn't affect Ironworks any more than if I took a Great Hall, but then changed my mind and took a Silver instead.

I like this outcome because:

A) It is weird to say that I get nothing for revealing the Trader, when I could have just gained the Silver with Ironworks directly;
B) This interpretation produces the expected result with Possession, namely, that Possessed players should have Ironworks bonuses.
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DG

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Re: Ironworks + Trader
« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2011, 10:54:59 am »
0

Quote
Watchtower can't stop you from gaining a card. It just allows you to do something different with it after you gain it. Once Watchtower starts reacting, Ironworks (or whatever else caused you to gain the card) has totally finished its job.


It's slightly different. You play the ironworks and gain the card. The watchtower reaction takes effect and is resolved by trashing the card. The ironworks will complete after the card is trashed to give you the benefit, since you did gain the card.


Quote
I believe Ironworks should give you +$1 for the Silver, and here is my reasoning:
I'm going to dinner with my wife

That makes as much sense as anything else and we should stop the debate there!
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Donald X.

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Re: Ironworks + Trader
« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2011, 11:14:08 am »
+1

Trader says, "you were going to get something, but instead you're getting this."
The key is, Trader does not replace "what you were getting" with Silver; it replaces "you getting something" with a new event, which happens to be you getting Silver.

This is already cemented in place by the FAQ for Trader; if Thief steals Copper and you use Trader to get Silver instead, you don't take the Silver from the trash; if you buy Nomad Camp and reveal Trader, the Silver does not go on your deck.

The original event Ironworks generated did not happen; the fact that you happen to be gaining a Silver now is just confusing the issue.
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rod-

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Re: Ironworks + Trader
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2011, 11:20:13 am »
0

(relevant portions of)
Trader:  When you would gain a card, you may reveal this:  If you do, instead, gain a silver.
Watchtower:  When you would gain a card, you may reveal this:  If you do, either trash that card, or put it on top of your deck.

To me, watchtower replaces the gain with "gain this card, place it on top of deck" while Trader replaces the gain with "gain a silver"  The gain is replaced either way, it shouldn't matter what the gain is replaced with. 

It's arguable that the watchtower was intended to merely replace the "second half" of the gain effect "take this card and put it in your discard" with "take this card and put it in your trash / on top of your deck" but that seems inelegant to me, as you are subdividing the way that "gains" work.
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theory

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Re: Ironworks + Trader
« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2011, 11:26:06 am »
0

The original event Ironworks generated did not happen; the fact that you happen to be gaining a Silver now is just confusing the issue.
I don't think that matters to Ironworks.  If Trader had said "Whenever you would gain a card, gain a Silver from an opponent's hand instead." I still think Ironworks should get you +$1.

Ironworks says, Gain a card.  Then Traders interrupts, and does a bunch of magic, the end result being, you gain a Silver.  Now when you lift it off the "stack", Ironworks says, now, here's the relevant bonus based on whatever card you gained.  Ironworks doesn't know you originally chose Great Hall and now have a Silver, Ironworks doesn't care that there's a Quarry in play and you got to pick something that's >$4.  All it cares is, it asked you to gain something, and now you have gained a Silver, so that's your bonus.  It's a new "gain" event, but it's still a gain event!

I play Upgrade-Into-Hand, which reads "Trash a card from your hand and gain one that costs exactly $1 more.  Put it into your hand."  I use it on a Forge, gaining a Peddler.  But wait!  Traders interrupts, and gains me a Silver instead.  That Silver should still go into my hand.  This differs from Nomad Camp and Thief, because:

1) In Nomad Camp, the whole when-gain effect is now gone because you have  a Silver instead;
2) In Thief, you've replaced the non-gain-event with a new gain-event. 

But in any circumstance that calls for a gain event, then gives you something to do with that gain event, the fact that you subbed in the Traders gain event doesn't mean the rest of the card should be nullified, since it's still a gain event.
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Donald X.

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Re: Ironworks + Trader
« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2011, 11:38:34 am »
0

I don't think that matters to Ironworks.  If Trader had said "Whenever you would gain a card, gain a Silver from an opponent's hand instead." I still think Ironworks should get you +$1.

Ironworks says, Gain a card.  Then Traders interrupts, and does a bunch of magic, the end result being, you gain a Silver.  Now when you lift it off the "stack", Ironworks says, now, here's the relevant bonus based on whatever card you gained.  Ironworks doesn't know you originally chose Great Hall and now have a Silver, Ironworks doesn't care that there's a Quarry in play and you got to pick something that's >$4.  All it cares is, it asked you to gain something, and now you have gained a Silver, so that's your bonus.  It's a new "gain" event, but it's still a gain event!
Ironworks is referring to a specific card, and that card is not the Silver that Trader got you. So you get no bonus. You could gain ten cards in-between playing Ironworks and getting to "if it is...;" whatever, the bonuses you get are for the card Ironworks is referring to, and not to anything else.

We could phrase Ironworks so that it worked however we wanted. "During the resolution of this action, when you gain a card, if it is..." But Ironworks has the phrasing it has, and that includes giving you a bonus based on the qualities of a specific card.

Quote
I play Upgrade-Into-Hand, which reads "Trash a card from your hand and gain one that costs exactly $1 more.  Put it into your hand."  I use it on a Forge, gaining a Peddler.  But wait!  Traders interrupts, and gains me a Silver instead.  That Silver should still go into my hand.
You are incorrect. Any similarities between Trader gaining you a card and Ironworks or Upgrade-Into-Hand gaining a card are irrelevant; you did not gain the card you were supposed to, the card being referred to by "it" is undefined, thus you get nothing / put nothing in your hand.
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Donald X.

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Re: Ironworks + Trader
« Reply #22 on: October 31, 2011, 11:51:08 am »
0

In case this is helpful, let's consider the card, Throw in a Silver, which reads, "when you would gain a card other than Silver, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, you also gain a Silver."

I play Ironworks, gaining an Estate, and reveal Throw in a Silver. Do you expect to get bonuses for both cards from Ironworks?
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Thanar

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Re: Ironworks + Trader
« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2011, 12:29:11 pm »
0

(relevant portions of)
Trader:  When you would gain a card, you may reveal this:  If you do, instead, gain a silver.
Watchtower:  When you would gain a card, you may reveal this:  If you do, either trash that card, or put it on top of your deck.

Your quote of the relevant portion of Watchtower is incorrect. It does not say "would gain" but simply "gain". So the two card effects are not parallel.

Here is the actual Watchtower quote: "<i>When you gain a card</i>, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, either trash that card, or put it on top of your deck."
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rod-

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Re: Ironworks + Trader
« Reply #24 on: October 31, 2011, 12:57:17 pm »
0

must've been just from looking at them at the same time, i missed that. 
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