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Jeebus

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Missing vanilla
« on: July 06, 2013, 10:31:38 pm »
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I just played a game with Throne Room and no card giving +action. The other guy tried making a TR+Masq engine (with Witch). It didn't work, but I thought maybe it could have if one of the drawers gave +coins so you wouldn't have to gum it up with Silver and Gold.

Then I realized that there are no terminal drawers that give +coins. There's Vault, but it draws and then discards for the coins. Also there's Trusty Steed, which can be used that way (but most often isn't), but it doesn't count, since you can't build a strategy around a card that you might get one copy of well into the game.

There aren't even any non-terminal cards that give +coins and draws more than one card. (+1 card +coins: Peddler, Market, Grand Market, Bazaar, Treasury, activated Conspirator, level 3 City).

Anyway, I think Dominion is really missing this vanilla card:

FOUNDRY - $5
+$2
+3 Cards


It might be too good for a $5 cost. Maybe either make it cost $6, or just +2 Cards, whichever would be more balanced. Haven't playtestet obviously. (Also, I suspect this has already been suggested as a fan card. I just can't be bothered to look through everywhere.)

scott_pilgrim

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Re: Missing vanilla
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2013, 10:49:37 pm »
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I've noticed this as well.  I think the reason for a terminal card giving both cards and coin not existing is that cards and coins do sort of the same thing, just with cards being more versatile than coin.  When a card gives +cards, it's like giving you potential to do stuff with the other cards in your deck, and when it gives +coin, it's being the card that gives you buying power.  +cards is just a way to get to +coin cards (if we're counting treasures as +coin cards); or to get to other +cards cards.  Non-terminals do it sometimes because cantrip coin is kind of a distinctive thing (I'm not really sure how to explain why, but it feels different).  A card that gives both cards and coin feels like it's trying to accomplish two different things at once, telling you to play through more of your deck but also telling you you're done playing through your deck and it's time to spend.  I feel like I did a terrible job of explaining that, but hopefully that made some kind of sense.

Anyway, as for your card, that seems way too strong for $5.  Often as a rough comparison, I equate +1 card=+$1 (not perfect by any means, cards are usually better than coin and it certainly depends on the context), which would mean that +3 cards, +$2 is roughly equal to +$5, which is just too much for a $5 card.  In big money, if you get this card in your hand you almost certainly can get a province.  It might even be too good for $6.  If you want to keep it at $5, it could maybe be +2 cards, +$2, or +3 cards, +$1.

I've always wanted to see something like +2 cards, +1 action, +$1, but I'm not really sure how to price that.  Clearly it has to be $6, but it might be too weak, since it's hard to grab a lot of $6 cards.

Edit: Also, I thought +2 cards, +$2 is usually the most popular option for Trusty Steed.  It seems like it gets chosen more than a third of the time (I'm assuming the silver gaining option is negligible).
« Last Edit: July 06, 2013, 10:51:51 pm by scott_pilgrim »
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Missing vanilla
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2013, 11:48:41 pm »
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+2 Cards, +$1, and +$2, +1 card seems like nice $4 cards. Generally for terminals, $ is better than cards (the opposite is true for non terminals), but Smithy has its own niche that these cards aren't good at.

+3 Cards, +$1 seems like a $5 card if Margrave and Torturer are anything to go by.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Missing vanilla
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2013, 01:57:30 am »
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+2 Cards, +$1, and +$2, +1 card seems like nice $4 cards. Generally for terminals, $ is better than cards (the opposite is true for non terminals), but Smithy has its own niche that these cards aren't good at.

+3 Cards, +$1 seems like a $5 card if Margrave and Torturer are anything to go by.

But if you are saying that money is better than cards for terminals, then "+3 Cards, +$1" is better than a straight up "+4 cards", which is closer to a $6 card (Hunting Grounds) than a $5 card (closest would be CR, which gives a small bonus in +Buy and a big drawback in Lab-ing everyone else).
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Missing vanilla
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2013, 02:10:15 am »
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+2 Cards, +$1, and +$2, +1 card seems like nice $4 cards. Generally for terminals, $ is better than cards (the opposite is true for non terminals), but Smithy has its own niche that these cards aren't good at.

+3 Cards, +$1 seems like a $5 card if Margrave and Torturer are anything to go by.

But if you are saying that money is better than cards for terminals, then "+3 Cards, +$1" is better than a straight up "+4 cards", which is closer to a $6 card (Hunting Grounds) than a $5 card (closest would be CR, which gives a small bonus in +Buy and a big drawback in Lab-ing everyone else).

I think "+$2" is better than "+2 cards" whenever considering something like an attack, but +4 cards has the nice big draw thing going for engines. +3 cards, +$1 just looks like "smithy with a small bonus" to me.

Council Room's +buy is usually incredibly useful, and I think without it the card would be generally worse than Smithy.
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Asper

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Re: Missing vanilla
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2013, 05:43:51 am »
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Hunting Grounds costs 6$ instead of 5$ because it wants to be remodeled. In that matter, it very much compares to Farmlands. Without its on-trash, HG would be a strong, but boring 5$. +1 Card makes a big difference, but 4$/5$ is also a big gap. I think it's fine.

Also i agree that the buy is essential for CR.
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Awaclus

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Re: Missing vanilla
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2013, 08:18:30 am »
+1

I think "+$2" is better than "+2 cards" whenever considering something like an attack, but +4 cards has the nice big draw thing going for engines. +3 cards, +$1 just looks like "smithy with a small bonus" to me.
+3 cards, +$1 would be very good for $5. +$1 isn't a small bonus, it's a big bonus (see Grand Market).
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heron

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Re: Missing vanilla
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2013, 09:34:34 am »
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+2 Cards, +$2 is proposed frequently, and I believe the consensus is that it is a 6-7 cost card.
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liopoil

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Re: Missing vanilla
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2013, 09:37:07 am »
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There's also an absence of +1 card being tacked onto other effects. There are many cards that do something, then are also either cantrips, just +1 action, terminal silver, or terminal draw, but I can't think of any terminal +1 card cards.
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Asper

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Re: Missing vanilla
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2013, 10:19:13 am »
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There's also an absence of +1 card being tacked onto other effects. There are many cards that do something, then are also either cantrips, just +1 action, terminal silver, or terminal draw, but I can't think of any terminal +1 card cards.

I think the reason is that you usually don't want it. It's weak and you can't really use it for an engine, and at the same time it is unsave if played for drawing money.
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enfynet

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Re: Missing vanilla
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2013, 01:39:28 pm »
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[...], but I can't think of any terminal +1 card cards.
Ruined Library?  :P
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KingZog3

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Re: Missing vanilla
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2013, 01:46:47 pm »
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Tribute has the possibility of being +2cards +2$.
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Awaclus

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Re: Missing vanilla
« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2013, 02:20:24 pm »
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There's also an absence of +1 card being tacked onto other effects. There are many cards that do something, then are also either cantrips, just +1 action, terminal silver, or terminal draw, but I can't think of any terminal +1 card cards.
Ironworks gaining an Estate.
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liopoil

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Re: Missing vanilla
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2013, 02:23:21 pm »
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There's also an absence of +1 card being tacked onto other effects. There are many cards that do something, then are also either cantrips, just +1 action, terminal silver, or terminal draw, but I can't think of any terminal +1 card cards.
Ironworks gaining an Estate.
yeah, but you hardly ever want to do that!

and yeah, I know ruined library, but that's hardly ever a good card too!
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Just a Rube

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Re: Missing vanilla
« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2013, 04:05:07 pm »
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There's also an absence of +1 card being tacked onto other effects. There are many cards that do something, then are also either cantrips, just +1 action, terminal silver, or terminal draw, but I can't think of any terminal +1 card cards.
Ironworks gaining an Estate.
yeah, but you hardly ever want to do that!

and yeah, I know ruined library, but that's hardly ever a good card too!
Ironworks gaining a Silk Road/Gardens.
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Jeebus

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Re: Missing vanilla
« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2013, 04:45:09 pm »
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Hmm, lots of conflicting opinions. I always thought that generally +1 card was better than +$1. For instance Lab would be a weak $5 cost with "+$2, +1 Action"; just compare with Mystic.

I also disagree that money is better than cards for terminals. Of course it all depends on what else the card does. But +$2 is usually pretty weak on terminals, that's why those terminals always do something else important (like an attack). The few terminals giving +$3 (Harvest, Mandarin) are just pretty weak usually. But there's a huge difference between a terminal drawing 2 cards and one drawing 3 cards.

Obviously pricing "+3 cards, +$2" at $5 (my OP) was way off. But I'm surprised that the consensus on "+2 cards, +$2" apparently is $6 or $7. It seems like a reasonable $5 to me. "+3 cards, +$1" could probably be a $6. And "+3 cards, +$2" would be $7 (or too good to price right).

That Grand Market is so expensive but only gives one more $1 than Market, is not relevant to this discussion I think, because you can't compare terminals and non-terminals that way. I'm trying to say that $1 is a bigger bonus for non-terminals than for terminals. But still, I did say that "+3 cards, +$1" should be $6, costing $2 more than Smithy. Not sure if that is a little too expensive though. Might be that it needs to be a nerfed $5 or something.

NoMoreFun

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Re: Missing vanilla
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2013, 05:32:36 pm »
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Comparing terminals:
+2 Cards (Moat) and +$2 (Duchess) are both worth $2.
+3 Cards is worth $4, while +$3 is too good for $5.

The reason why money is better than cards for terminals is because it's more reliable, and doesn't require any other kind of deck improvement to be effective.

On the other hand, non terminal +Cards gives an increased chance of being able to use that +1 action.
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Jeebus

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Re: Missing vanilla
« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2013, 07:15:40 pm »
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Comparing terminals:
+2 Cards (Moat) and +$2 (Duchess) are both worth $2.
+3 Cards is worth $4, while +$3 is too good for $5.

Moat and Duchess are not good examples, for obvious reasons. What's clear is that both terminal +2 Cards and terminal +$2 are worth less than $2 - you wouldn't normally even buy a card just doing that. But good point about +3 Cards being worth less than +$3. I'm not sure that +$3 is worth more than $5 though. What the official game says depends on whether you consider Mandarin's topdecking a nerf or not I guess. Horse Traders gives +$3 and a buy, for $4, but you have to discard two of course. But a terminal $5 just giving +$3? In big money with no Smithy you would buy a couple, sure, when you didn't get $6, but you'd rather have Gold so you could buy other terminals (Chancellor or Navigator or whatever).

Tables

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Re: Missing vanilla
« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2013, 08:25:16 pm »
+1

Obviously pricing "+3 cards, +$2" at $5 (my OP) was way off. But I'm surprised that the consensus on "+2 cards, +$2" apparently is $6 or $7. It seems like a reasonable $5 to me. "+3 cards, +$1" could probably be a $6. And "+3 cards, +$2" would be $7 (or too good to price right).

A lot of the possible vanilla effects (heck, probably all of the not-obviously broken ones) have been playtested, both by the community at large and often by DXV as well. Check out the Dominion Outtakes article - right there in the Early Days 'set' was a card 'Highway' that costed $5 and gave +2 cards, +$2. DXV didn't explain exactly why it never went anywhere, but the community at large has tried the card and generally come to the same consensus: It's boring and powerful at $5, it's still boring but okay at $6. The 'it's boring' part is why it never showed up. It's not like Smithy which can become a big engine, this just sits there and is good in big money, and it's fairly unexciting in engines - it doesn't enable an engine on it's own because +2 cards at $6 is crazy bad, so you kind of just throw it in for extra money and a little draw.

The same reason is mostly why +$3 for $5 never appeared. It's boring. Power wise, it's alright at $5, not great (probably comparable to Merchant Ship), and it also looks bad next to any $5 giving +$3 and other stuff, even if that other stuff is a mix of penalty and bonus (such as Mandarin and Count).

Rinkworks wrote an excellent article a while ago about remaining vanilla effects, and why most of them will be very unlikely to come out.

Edit: It's here but it actually seems a lot more dated reading now than it did then. Ah well, still worth a look
« Last Edit: July 07, 2013, 08:30:21 pm by Tables »
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

Fragasnap

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Re: Missing vanilla
« Reply #19 on: July 07, 2013, 09:22:50 pm »
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Obviously pricing "+3 cards, +$2" at $5 (my OP) was way off. But I'm surprised that the consensus on "+2 cards, +$2" apparently is $6 or $7. It seems like a reasonable $5 to me. "+3 cards, +$1" could probably be a $6. And "+3 cards, +$2" would be $7 (or too good to price right).

A lot of the possible vanilla effects (heck, probably all of the not-obviously broken ones) have been playtested, both by the community at large and often by DXV as well. Check out the Dominion Outtakes article - right there in the Early Days 'set' was a card 'Highway' that costed $5 and gave +2 cards, +$2. DXV didn't explain exactly why it never went anywhere, but the community at large has tried the card and generally come to the same consensus: It's boring and powerful at $5, it's still boring but okay at $6...
Quote
"Highway:" This was "+2 Cards +$2," for $5. It was a solid card that I eventually decided not to do. It seemed strong and it's too easy to compare to other things. It had no special charm.
Source
Quote
- There was a card that was just “+2 coins, +2 cards” for 5. It was too powerful at 5 and not exciting enough for 6. I don’t expect to ever revive it; instead you can do things with variable amounts of coins or cards that are better balanced and more interesting.
Source

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Jeebus

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Re: Missing vanilla
« Reply #20 on: July 08, 2013, 12:03:45 am »
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That's interesting. I had a feeling when I made this thread that a card like this might be mostly usable in a kingdom with TR/KC and no +actions. But still a terminal with +3 cards and some coins seems kind of interesting. Reducing it to +2 cards was just something I threw in there at the end, but for such a card to have merit it has to be an engine enabler so it must draw 3 cards. Giving +$2 as I also originally suggested seems the most interesting, but the problem could be that it can't be priced in any reasonable way. But I also think "+3 cards, +$1" could have been an interesting $6 card. That Hunting Room exists (a drawer at $6) lends merit to this idea. Neither Rinkworks' old post, Donald or the community tests cover these possibilities.

Hmm, how about something like: "+3 cards, +$2. Each other player may discard a card. If he does, he draws a card." - for $6. It's a great benefit to the other players, maybe too big.

mail-mi

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Re: Missing vanilla
« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2013, 12:09:06 am »
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As good as council rooms benefit to opponent
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Awaclus

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Re: Missing vanilla
« Reply #22 on: July 08, 2013, 09:55:08 am »
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As good as council rooms benefit to opponent
It's worse, it makes them discard a card first.
yeah, but you hardly ever want to do that!

and yeah, I know ruined library, but that's hardly ever a good card too!
Maybe there's no other +1 card because it's just not very good.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2013, 11:13:42 am by Awaclus »
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