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Author Topic: Ranking the Expansions  (Read 31870 times)

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Powerman

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Re: Ranking the Expansions
« Reply #75 on: July 10, 2013, 04:19:27 pm »
+2

Wow, it's amazing how many people hate attacks.  Best part of Dominion, IMO.  Well, good attacks are.
I like attacks in theory, but the problem is that a lot of the attacks that actually exist are just frustratingly strong.  I went through Qvist's lists and counted, and it turns out that out of 31 attacks, 16 are in the top quartile of their price group (17/32 if you count IGG).  I think it makes sense that generally people would dislike strong cards, so it's not surprising that they end up hating attacks.  Plus, a lot of strong cards are a fun strong, like Fishing Village or Wharf or King's Court, but attack cards tend to not be a fun strong.  They tend to be "I got my attack faster than you, so you can just sit there and watch me play now."  At least if you get KC before I do, then maybe I can get my own KC later and have some fun with it even if I know I'm going to lose.  But usually attacks aren't particularly fun for the player playing them, and they're a lot less fun for the player getting hit by them.

Interestingly, 8 out of 31 are in the bottom quartile (which is a lot because 16 are in the top quartile; only 7/31 are in the middle 50%).  Is it really that much harder to judge the strength of an attack card than it is to judge the strength of an arbitrary card in general?

Explorer is Attacks are fine, why do people even complain about Explorer attacks. They can't all be the best $5 worst cards ever.

Sure the cards are "mean" but the New York Yankees have millions of fans, so why not Dominion attack cards?
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Wingnut

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Re: Ranking the Expansions
« Reply #76 on: July 10, 2013, 08:01:08 pm »
0

Like / Dislike

Base: Market / Chapel
Intrigue: Torturer / Masquerade or Pawn
Seaside: Ambassador / Embargo
Alchemy: Philosopher's Stone / Golem
Prosperity: Monument / Peddler
Cornucopia: Jester / Hunting Party or Tourament (I hate both of these cards with a passion)
Hinterlands: Margrave / IGG
Dark Ages: Death Cart / Shelters
Guilds: Baker / Stonemason
Promo: Envoy / Stash

Expansion Rankings (not including promo)
9 Cornucopia - I hate Tournament and Hunting Party. I am ambivalent at best about Harvest, Horse Traders and Forutne Teller. With that many cards I dislike or don't care at all about this is an easy choice (especially since the two cards I hate in this set are the two I would ban from all of Dominion if given a chance).
8 Intrigue - Turns too many games into slogs without a lot of great slog cards in the set. Torturer, Minion and Swindler are all fun, until you play an Intrigue only game and have to play with all of them in one set. Even worse is the lack of villages (yes there are 4 potential but Nobles, Shanty Town and Tribute are 3 of those). Also contains the space wasted on Scout.
7 Base - Just too much blah in this set, even with still interesting cards like Market, Witch, Militia and Gardens in the set. Chapel is really weak within the set and makes engine building to easy outside of the set (I also enjoy slogs which Chapel disincentivizes)
6 Alchemy - Potions are annoying but I like almost every card. Pretty mmuch all except Golem which I could never wrap my mind around.
5 Dark Ages - There are no really bad or even super disliked cards for me. That said the mind-warping craziness is a bit to zany for me at times (unless I get a Rats deck working).
4 Prosperity - Everyone likes mega turns. Simple. Most people like VP Chips as well.
3 Guilds - Baker's coin at the beginning is nice as are the coin tokens. Between that and the overpay this set has fun mechanics.
2 Seaside - Durations are great and the attacks in this set are among my favorites in the game.
1 Hinterlands - Instant gratification. On gain is amazing. Is the one later set that sometimes helps BM (balance between BM and engine is good people) and of course there is Silk Road, my favorite of the alt VP green cards.
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Ranking the Expansions
« Reply #77 on: July 10, 2013, 08:24:51 pm »
+5

Sure the cards are "mean"
No, they're above average, that's the whole point.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Ranking the Expansions
« Reply #78 on: July 10, 2013, 08:38:29 pm »
0

Hunting Party or Tourament (I hate both of these cards with a passion)

Tournament I understand, but Hunting Party?
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ftl

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Re: Ranking the Expansions
« Reply #79 on: July 10, 2013, 08:48:44 pm »
0

A lot of people dislike Hunting Party because it is is strong in a way that deliberately encourages straightforward strategies that you can't add anything to. HP is amazing when you have very little variety in your deck, like the standard HP+X deck with copper, silver, gold, a terminal silver or equivalent, and as many HPs as you can get. And it's fairly difficult to add creativity to this, since every unique card you add makes the HP stack more likely to break down.
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Wingnut

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Re: Ranking the Expansions
« Reply #80 on: July 10, 2013, 09:16:35 pm »
0

ftl has it exactly right. Hunting Party + X is just boring and life sucking. Generally I go for anything that isn't that because it is so dull to play, usually to fairly awful results. I see Hunting Party as something dull like Smithy-BM played at a higher level. It just bores me to play it or beats me in humiliating fashion.
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markusin

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Re: Ranking the Expansions
« Reply #81 on: July 10, 2013, 09:51:16 pm »
0

A lot of people dislike Hunting Party because it is is strong in a way that deliberately encourages straightforward strategies that you can't add anything to. HP is amazing when you have very little variety in your deck, like the standard HP+X deck with copper, silver, gold, a terminal silver or equivalent, and as many HPs as you can get. And it's fairly difficult to add creativity to this, since every unique card you add makes the HP stack more likely to break down.

Ironic, since it's a Cornucopia card. You realize how much variety hurts Hunting Party when you play with in in Dark Ages heavy kingdoms.

About attacks, I don't think attacks are necessarily bad. You ignore cards like Witch, Mountebank, Minion, ambassador, and Soothsayer at your own peril. A Silver/Silver opening gives you a good chance of getting to $5 reasonably early. Things don't always work out that way though. It's cool when you can ignore the attacks.

However, some attacks are a lot more swingy. Swindler in particular comes to mind. You can have a match where everyone opens with Swindler-X, but then you have one player in a much better than another player for no reason other than luck. You might even lose the Swindler to another Swindler, but then when you buy it back your adversaries have a bunch of Gold or Maybe even Provinces to act as a deterrent. I give the nod to secret chamber for actually being an effective defense against Swindler.
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TrojH

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Re: Ranking the Expansions
« Reply #82 on: July 10, 2013, 10:40:40 pm »
0

Favorite/least favorite from each set? Sure, I'll play along. (And unlike my "ranking" of the sets", this one won't be a cop-out. :-D)

Like / Dislike

Base: Gardens / Thief

Intrigue: Upgrade / Wishing Well

Seaside: Treasury / Ghost Ship (Lookout would be a close 2nd worst)

Alchemy: Apprentice / Transmute (Possession would be a close 2nd worst)

Prosperity: Grand Market / Goons

Cornucopia: Jester / Fortune Teller

Hinterlands: Cartographer / Develop

Dark Ages (limited experience, haven't played with all the cards yet): Junk Dealer / Knights

Guilds (again, limited experience and haven't played with all the cards yet): Candlestick Maker / Journeyman

Promos: Governor / Walled Village
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Re: Ranking the Expansions
« Reply #83 on: July 10, 2013, 10:50:28 pm »
+2

Hunting Party or Tourament (I hate both of these cards with a passion)

Tournament I understand, but Hunting Party?

Hunting Party is my most disliked Dominion card. It's one of those cards that sets a baseline strategy in any game that it's in, a bit like Big Money + X, except the baseline is high enough that it's dominant on a good number of boards, and even if it isn't, it'll beat players around my skill level (~30-35 on Iso when I played regularly) probably 80%+ of the time.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

brokoli

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Re: Ranking the Expansions
« Reply #84 on: July 11, 2013, 06:10:58 am »
0

I think just like Jack or Rebuild, Hunting party is a skill-based card even if it dominates many board. The way to play it is very important. Of course, you have to choose the right terminal silver to pair with HP, but not only that. How to play Hunting party in an ambassador board ? How to play it with shelters ? Do I want to trigger a reshuffle now ? etc.

And the best strategy is not always Hunting party + X. I don't have examples in mind, but I have seen several high-level opponents that used Hunting party as a support card, or in a different way.

I also don't understand the develop haters. I think it's one of the most complex dominion card, therefore one of the most interesting.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Ranking the Expansions
« Reply #85 on: July 11, 2013, 09:55:23 am »
0

Perhaps, like Rebuild, Hunting Party needs cards from its own expansion to hold it back. After all, if the other cards want to you go for a variety-heavy deck, shouldn't Hunting Party be less powerful?

Hunting Party is tough to outrace, but then again there are a lot of really powerful cards in Cornucopia, most of the rest of them work together, and Hunting Party works well with at least some of them (Tournament, Horn of Plenty, etc.).
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Awaclus

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Re: Ranking the Expansions
« Reply #86 on: July 11, 2013, 10:59:42 am »
+6

Perhaps, like Rebuild, Hunting Party needs cards from its own expansion to hold it back.
No, like Rebuild, Hunting Party needs cards from Rebuild's expansion to hold it back.
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GeronimoRex

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Re: Ranking the Expansions
« Reply #87 on: July 11, 2013, 01:24:33 pm »
0

A lot of people dislike Hunting Party because it is is strong in a way that deliberately encourages straightforward strategies that you can't add anything to. HP is amazing when you have very little variety in your deck, like the standard HP+X deck with copper, silver, gold, a terminal silver or equivalent, and as many HPs as you can get. And it's fairly difficult to add creativity to this, since every unique card you add makes the HP stack more likely to break down.

Ironic, since it's a Cornucopia card.

I think Hunting Party can make thematic sense: The hunting party is searching for something new--and it stops searching once it finds something.

Though I agree it would fit the Cornucopia mechanics much better if the functionality were changed to encourage variety: "Reveal your hand. Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal a card that is a duplicate of one in your hand; discard it and put any other revealed cards into your hand."

This way, HP would be out searching for uniqueness. Once the party starts duplicating what's at home, they call it a day.
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Warfreak2

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Re: Ranking the Expansions
« Reply #88 on: July 12, 2013, 03:45:05 am »
0

That would be super-powerful. "or a duplicate of a card already revealed" would be a necessary fix.
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dondon151

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Re: Ranking the Expansions
« Reply #89 on: July 12, 2013, 03:59:57 am »
+3

HP is not so lame that it's inflexible with other strategies. HP+X is strong, yes, but HP in engines is even better. A card like Rebuild, on the other hand, isn't even good in engines - in fact, I'd say that it's actively bad for engines because you trash lesser Victory cards from the game.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Ranking the Expansions
« Reply #90 on: July 12, 2013, 07:59:05 am »
0

I think I'd prefer Hunting Party as a $5 Peddler variant. That would mean Tournament would need to be replaced by something different, but that's also something I'd prefer.
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shMerker

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Re: Ranking the Expansions
« Reply #91 on: July 12, 2013, 01:27:37 pm »
+1

There are $5 peddler variants (Highway, Treasury) already. What would make a hypothetical Hunting Party Peddler variant different in that regard?

And anyway is that card:

+1 Card
+1 Action
+$1
[some additional thing]

Or:

Is it
+1$
+1 Action
[the part of Hunting Party that makes you dig for a unique card]

Or is it something else? Because I don't really see how either of those cards obviates Tournament, especially if they cost more than it.

If I were ranking the expansions right now I think it would be

Prosperity
Seaside
Guilds
Dark Ages
Intrigue
Hinterlands
Cornucopia
Alchemy

I find with Prosperity and Seaside I spend a lot less time explaining how the cards work than with other sets and people get a kick out of the themes. Guilds and Dark Ages are more complex but usually inspire the same excitement so that makes up for it. Intrigue and Hinterlands are both definitely solid and I think I could play and enjoy the game if either one of those was the only set I had (obviously with Base Cards to make the Hinterlands playable). Cornucopia and Alchemy are both fun, but I find that Cornucopia cards are really intimidating and confusing to a lot of players and Alchemy always seems to slow things down a lot. If you forced me at gunpoint to burn an expansion it would be Alchemy for sure.
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Re: Ranking the Expansions
« Reply #92 on: July 12, 2013, 03:54:18 pm »
0

Or is it something else? Because I don't really see how either of those cards obviates Tournament, especially if they cost more than it.
I think the idea is just that having 2 peddler variants (and Tournament, in addition to everything else, is effectively a peddler early in the game) in a small set would seem redundant; people would complain.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Ranking the Expansions
« Reply #93 on: July 13, 2013, 01:17:15 am »
0

Is it
+1$
+1 Action
[the part of Hunting Party that makes you dig for a unique card]


That's what I had in mind.
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Asper

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Re: Ranking the Expansions
« Reply #94 on: August 23, 2013, 09:05:27 am »
0

Favourite / Dislike

Base: Chancellor / Moat

Intrigue: Harem / Ironworks

Seaside: Embargo / Merchant Ship Caravan

Alchemy: Philosopher's Stone / Alchemist

Prosperity: Counting House / City

Cornucopia: Horn of Plenty / Managerie

Hinterlands: Farmland / Tunnel

Dark Ages: Poor House / Rebuild!!!

Guilds: Not played yet...

Promos: Walled Village / Governor

Probably some of you will think i switched Fav and Dislike - but i just got a soft spot for weak cards and don't like cards that are game-warpingly strong (besides other preferences).
« Last Edit: August 23, 2013, 09:07:18 am by Asper »
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Re: Ranking the Expansions
« Reply #95 on: August 23, 2013, 07:42:03 pm »
0

Oh, hey, and for those who thought it odd that I disliked Cornucopia's power creep but didn't seem to mind or notice it in Seaside, I have a new answer: Seaside is a pretty average expansion power wise, at least if we take WW's rankings as our data. Now I would actually rate Wharf and Sea Hag somewhat higher, which would bump it up a few points, but it would still not be that remarkable. On top of that, the overall expansion isn't too hot power wise - a few stars, just like most expansions, but a big showing in the slightly-below-average section hurts it.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.
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