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Author Topic: Ranking the Expansions  (Read 31872 times)

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jsh357

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Re: Ranking the Expansions
« Reply #50 on: July 09, 2013, 07:10:17 pm »
+1

Set   {Cake / No Cake}
Base   {Chapel / Militia}
Intrigue   {Courtyard / Tribute}
Seaside   {Tactician / Merchant Ship}
Alchemy   {Apprentice / Familiar}
Prosperity   {Watchtower / Forge}
Cornucopia   {Menagerie / Followers}
Hinterlands   {Tunnel / Margrave}
Dark Ages   {Band of Misfits / Rebuild}
Guilds   {Baker / Nothing really}
Promos   {Black Market / Governor}
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AJD

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Re: Ranking the Expansions
« Reply #51 on: July 09, 2013, 07:48:34 pm »
0

Okay, this game I'll play:

Set {Like / Dislike}

Dominion {Chapel / Remodel}
Promo {Black Market / Envoy}
Intrigue {Conspirator / Saboteur}
Seaside {Fishing Village / Ghost Ship}
Alchemy {Apothecary / Transmute}
Prosperity {Forge / Contraband}
Cornucopia {Menagerie / Harvest}
Hinterlands {Highway / Mandarin}
Dark Ages {Rebuild / Marauder}
Guilds {Candlestick Maker / Taxman}

I thought about putting Advisor for least favorite in Guilds (like Envoy and Contraband above, actually), but I actually haven't yet played a game in which anyone has gained it so I feel like I don't have any basis for judging it.
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AJD

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Re: Ranking the Expansions
« Reply #52 on: July 09, 2013, 07:50:27 pm »
+2

So I guess now we should each play a game consisting of our ten favorites, and another consisting of our ten unfavorites?
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Ranking the Expansions
« Reply #53 on: July 09, 2013, 08:08:02 pm »
0

Like/Dislike

Dominion: Witch/Adventurer
Intrigue: Nobles/Scout
Seaside: Fishing Village/Pearl Diver
Alchemy: University/Transmute
Prosperity: King's Court/Contraband
Cornucopia: Horn of Plenty/nothing (I don't actually mind Tournament games)
Hinterlands: Haggler/Develop
Dark Ages: Shelters/Procession
Guilds: Butcher/nothing
Promo: Envoy/nothing
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heron

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Re: Ranking the Expansions
« Reply #54 on: July 09, 2013, 08:23:32 pm »
0

Ooooh, this looks fun!

Like/Dislike

Dominion: Remodel/Feast
Intrigue: Coppersmith/Scout
Seaside: Explorer/Smugglers
Alchemy: Apothecary/Alchemist
Prosperity: Hoard/Contraband
Cornucopia: Young Witch/Tournament
Hinterlands: Oracle/Margrave
Dark Ages: Counterfeit/Count
Guilds: Merchant Guild/Candlestick Maker
Promo: Walled Village/Envoy
Base: Curse/Estate

Explorer is my favorite card, Margrave is my least favorite; Seaside is my favorite expansion, Dominion is my least favorite.
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markusin

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Re: Ranking the Expansions
« Reply #55 on: July 09, 2013, 08:27:19 pm »
0

I really wanted something like this. Here goes:

Set {Yeah!/Boo!}

Promo {Black Market/Governor}
Base Set {Laboratory/Spy}
Intrigue {Steward/Swindler}
Seaside {Lookout/Native Village}
Alchemy {Apothecary/Familiar}
Prosperity {Bank/Peddler}
Cornucopia {Horn Of Plenty/Farming Village (Well, it's my least favourite anyway)}
Hinterlands {Highway/Scheme}
Dark Ages {Mystic/Urchin-Mercenary}
Guilds {Stonemason/Soothsayer}
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liopoil

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Re: Ranking the Expansions
« Reply #56 on: July 09, 2013, 08:32:35 pm »
0

Like/Dislike

Dominion: Chapel/Moat
Intrigue: Conspirator/minion
Seaside: Tactician/lighthouse
Alchemy: Scrying Pool/alchemist
Prosperity: King's Court/Goons
Cornucopia: Menagerie/Young Witch
Hinterlands: Border Village/Fool's gold
Dark Ages: Rats/Rebuild
Guilds: Plaza/Journeyman
Promo: Black Market/Envoy
Base: Estate/Gold
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Ranking the Expansions
« Reply #57 on: July 09, 2013, 08:36:55 pm »
0

Favorite/Least Favorite (writing it as like/dislike makes it sound like I'm neutral to all other cards in the set...)

Base: Chapel/Thief
Intrigue: Torturer/Minion
Seaside: Wharf/Treasure Map
Alchemy: Apprentice/Familiar
Prosperity: King's Court/Mountebank
Cornucopia: Fairgrounds/Tournament
Hinterlands: Crossroads/Fool's Gold
Dark Ages: Rats/Feodum
Guilds: Soothsayer/Taxman
Promos: Walled Village (I don't really like any Promos)/Black Market

My kingdom of favorites would certainly be an engine game.  It's got Rats/Apprentice which is fun but easily overshadowed by everything else.
My kingdom of least favorites looks horrible.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Ranking the Expansions
« Reply #58 on: July 09, 2013, 09:06:05 pm »
0

Base: Library/Thief
Intrigue: Ironworks/Scout or Wishing Well
Seaside: Haven/Navigator
Alchemy: Apothecary/Possession
Prosperity: Watchtower/Goons
Cornucopia: Jester/Tournament
Hinterlands: Trader/IGG
Dark Ages: Scavenger/Fortress
Guilds: Stonemason/Herald
Promos: Governor/Walled Village
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StrongRhino

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Re: Ranking the Expansions
« Reply #59 on: July 09, 2013, 10:05:36 pm »
0

Set: High/Low

Base: Throne Room/Spy
Intrigue: Conspirator/Swindler
Seaside: Caravan/Embargo
Alchemy: Golem/Familiar
Prosperity: Bishop/Mountebank
Cornucopia: Horse Traders/Tournament
Hinterlands: Highway/IGG
Dark Ages: Hermit/Cultist
Guilds: Stonemason/Soothsayer
« Last Edit: July 10, 2013, 01:13:48 am by StrongRhino »
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Powerman

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Re: Ranking the Expansions
« Reply #60 on: July 09, 2013, 11:30:34 pm »
+2

Wow, it's amazing how many people hate attacks.  Best part of Dominion, IMO.  Well, good attacks are.


Base
Love: Moneylender | Hate: Spy

Intrigue
Love: Torturer / Minion | Hate: Nobles / Pawn

Seaside:
Love: Caravan / Ambassador | Hate: Native Village

Alchemy:
Love: Scrying Pool | Hate: Golem

Prosperity:
Love: Watchtower | Hate: Talisman

Cornucopia:
Love: Menagerie | Hate: Harvest / Hamlet

Hinterlands:
Love: Stables / Develop | Hate: Silk Road

Dark Ages:
Love: Procession | Hate: Death Cart

Guilds:
Love: Herald | Hate: Taxman

Promo:
Love: Black Market | Hate: The Rest.

Hinterlands far above all other expansion.  Then Dark Ages.  Then meh.
[/quote]
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Ranking the Expansions
« Reply #61 on: July 10, 2013, 12:16:15 am »
+1

Wow, it's amazing how many people hate attacks.  Best part of Dominion, IMO.  Well, good attacks are.
I like attacks in theory, but the problem is that a lot of the attacks that actually exist are just frustratingly strong.  I went through Qvist's lists and counted, and it turns out that out of 31 attacks, 16 are in the top quartile of their price group (17/32 if you count IGG).  I think it makes sense that generally people would dislike strong cards, so it's not surprising that they end up hating attacks.  Plus, a lot of strong cards are a fun strong, like Fishing Village or Wharf or King's Court, but attack cards tend to not be a fun strong.  They tend to be "I got my attack faster than you, so you can just sit there and watch me play now."  At least if you get KC before I do, then maybe I can get my own KC later and have some fun with it even if I know I'm going to lose.  But usually attacks aren't particularly fun for the player playing them, and they're a lot less fun for the player getting hit by them.

Interestingly, 8 out of 31 are in the bottom quartile (which is a lot because 16 are in the top quartile; only 7/31 are in the middle 50%).  Is it really that much harder to judge the strength of an attack card than it is to judge the strength of an arbitrary card in general?
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JacquesTheBard

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Re: Ranking the Expansions
« Reply #62 on: July 10, 2013, 01:12:04 am »
0

Base: Chapel/Feast
Intrigue: Bridge/Shanty Town
Seaside: Wharf/Embargo
Prosperity: Quarry (tied with King's Court)/Trade Route
Alchemy: Scrying Pool/Familiar
Cornucopia: Horn of Plenty/Harvest (I actually kinda like tournament).
Hinterlands: Scheme/Ill-Gotten Gains
Dark Ages: Band of Misfits/nothing (in a 35 card set. Dark Ages is awesome)
Guilds: never played, but Stonecutter and Herald look insanely fun.

As for the expansions in general, that's tricky. I mainly play IRL, and the sets I like best aren't necessarily the ones my family members like best.

9. Intrigue. Most "dud" cards of any set. Great cards for every strategy. Ironworks for rushes, bridge for megaturns, Duke for slogs, and courtyard for Big Money. But there's also a lot of cards that I just don't get, which seldom contribute to a good deck. I've already complained about shanty town, and of course secret chamber and scout are deservedly mocked. So yeah, a lot of nonexciting cards.

8. Base. Oddly enough, the likely favorite of my brother, who has a soft spot for quiet, situational cards like Bureaucrat or Adventurer. Some cards are staples of dominion. The first village, the first drawer, the first market, etc. Witch and Militia are still excellent attacks, and chapel is an all-time favorite. Still, a lot of the crazy explosiveness of Dominion is missing. In base, a "megaturn" is 2 provinces, and the closest thing to a legitimate "combo" is Council Room/Militia. Not to mention, Feast isn't super interesting, and Thief is a joke as always. Aside from the cards that went on to have variations, like lab and village and witch, the rest is pretty unimpressive. Still, it has chapel, which is probably my favorite card.

7. Guilds. May be great, and some of the cards look like they could be favorites, but I have no right to rank it highly until I actually play it.

6. Alchemy. As an engine junkie, this ought to be my favorite expansion. The odd thing is, while some cards here are fantastic engine enablers, others have a lot of prohibitive tricks here and there. Golem's too expensive, Alchemist is slow, etc. University, oddly enough, often creates a situation where you don't have enough actions to play your own terminals, especially if there are no good non-terminal actions to pick up on university plays. And familiar, awful familiar, adds far too much luck to the all-important curse war. That said, Scrying Pool is the best engine drawer of all time. When alchemy cards shine, they REALLY shine, but you always have to do a little juggling to fit them in.

5. Hinterlands. Actually a very nice set. The "Power cards" of the set, JoaT and IGG, force BM and slog strategies a little to heavily to be my favorites. However, when I look back over the list, it has some real gems. Fool's Gold is a great alt-treasure, Scheme is one of the most delightful engine cards out there, and the on-gain effects from Border Village and Haggler have created some really fun plays. Dominion would really miss something without Hinterlands.

4. Seaside. Who doesn't like Seaside? Sea Hag is a frustrating curser, Lookout is risky, and I'm never happy to see embargo on board. Aside from that, Seaside is fantastic. The theme is implemented solidly, and fans of explosive dominion strategies tend to be nuts over Wharf and Fishing Village. In all honesty, I think Seaside is the "power" expansion of dominion. Tactician is awesome, Island is unique, and even Treasury has a lot going for it. Ambassador is pretty surprising to people who've only seen base, because in a sense it combines the abilities of Base's two power cards, Witch and Chapel. It junks your opponent and trashes for you-so cool.

3. Dark Ages. This is the most mixed set for me. The combos in here are amazing. It's easily the best expansion for a creative engine builder. However, if your opponents go for simpler strategies, or don't quite get the new cards, they are going to be bored out of their minds. I once had a Knights-Rogues game where I trashed and gained half the contents of everyone else's deck every turn, and neither of them had fun. After a while, neither did I. That's the reason Dark Ages isn't my number one: it creates exactly the kind of boards I like to play, but creates more tension at the table than anything else.

2. Cornucopia. Almost as nuts as Seaside, but without any cards I really hate. The theme is beautiful, and carries a lot of favorites for me. Horn of Plenty is great, and I think Jester might be my favorite attack, especially in Scrying Pool games. It's so rare to get an attack that benefits you more than it hurts your opponent, and Jester's mechanic makes it one of my favorite gainers. It's got good cards in a lot of diverse areas, as well. Good trashing, good villages, good draw, good buy, and one of the most strategically rich cursers in the game. I even like tournament: sometimes, you just want a peddler for $4.

1. Prosperity. Not much of a surprise. I'm a megaturn junkie, and Prosperity was made for such people. Everyone remembers the 6+ staples like Grand Market, Goons, and the legendary King's Court. However, I think some of my favorites in the set are Peddler and Quarry. In any engine with easily added +buy sources like market or worker's village, superfluous buys are quite commonplace. Peddler and Quarry are great cards for giving +buy more oomph, albeit in very different ways. Quarry's kinda funny. It won't make an engine by itself, but if one is already viable, it's exactly what you need. I remember one game with Worker's Village, Wharf, and Quarry that must've ended by turn 8 or something like that. Most importantly, Prosperity is fun to lose, as well as to win. When my brother ground my under with King's Courted Mountebanks in the first game where both were present, I knew I had lost. But then he started looking for ways to use KC on virtual money--and the best source was Mountebank. When the game ended, he had literally emptied the contents of the copper pile into my deck. I wasn't pissed at all-I was laughing. That stuff just doesn't happen outside of Prosperity.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Ranking the Expansions
« Reply #63 on: July 10, 2013, 01:26:55 am »
0

I like attacks in theory, but the problem is that a lot of the attacks that actually exist are just frustratingly strong.

I think a significant part of this is the community's bias towards two player games, which is not what Dominion was designed for.  In a four player game, you can often forego an attack card with less risk.
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Ranking the Expansions
« Reply #64 on: July 10, 2013, 01:52:39 am »
0

I like attacks in theory, but the problem is that a lot of the attacks that actually exist are just frustratingly strong.

I think a significant part of this is the community's bias towards two player games, which is not what Dominion was designed for.  In a four player game, you can often forego an attack card with less risk.
I hadn't really considered that.  I haven't played much multiplayer, but the Curses and Ruins have a higher ratio of Curse/Ruin-to-player with more players; wouldn't that make junking attacks generally stronger?  Or is it just that in multiplayer, hurting other players isn't as significant, and that's enough to make up for the higher ratio of junk cards?
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ftl

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Re: Ranking the Expansions
« Reply #65 on: July 10, 2013, 02:25:09 am »
+5

In 2p, if you ignore the curser and your opponent does not, the curses get split 10-0.
In 3p, if you ignore the curser and your opponents do not, the curses get split 10-5-5
In 4p, if you ignore the curser and your opponents do not, the curses get split 10-7-7-6

So there's progressively less of a penalty compared to your opponents. You get 10 curses either way; it always takes 10 plays of a curser to empty the curse pile, so you'll take 10 of 'em. But in 3 and 4p, those extra curses all get spread out among the players who are cursing each other.

So if multiple opponents are cursing each other, then it's easier to do something else and pull ahead of them, since they'll slow each other down too.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2013, 02:26:19 am by ftl »
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ftl

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Re: Ranking the Expansions
« Reply #66 on: July 10, 2013, 02:35:58 am »
+2

So the cursers can become another case where it helps to be doing something different than your opponents - if you're the only one cursing 3 other players, you'll probably win, but if 3 other players are cursing each other then you don't need to bother with cursing, skip it, and go straight for cards that benefit you.

Also, reactions are much better with more players. In 2p, a big problem with, say, Moat,  is that there's a high chance it'll be in your hand on a turn when your opponent doesn't play an attack, and then you've just got a +2 cards terminal. Whereas in 3 or 4p, you're getting attacked much more often; there's a much higher chance that when you get a Moat in  your hand, it'll do something for you. In 2p, if you use a reaction to avoid taking a curse, that's just postponing the inevitable; you'll get those curses anyway if  you're not giving them out yourself! Whereas in 3p or 4p, the curses will get distributed between your opponents if all you're doing is reacting.

Just using the simulators, a bot that opens Moat/Moat crushes three opponents playing Big Money+Witch, even if it starts as 4th player every time. If two bots play BM+Witch and two play BM+Moat, all four end up pretty close, with BM+Witch having an advantage of barely a few percent. Of course, this is all a greatly simplified situation, but it illustrates the point: with with 4 players, any attack naturally creates a rock-paper-scissors situation - if you're the only one going for the attack, you probably win, but if you're the only one *not* going for the attack and going for the defense against it, you probably win, and there's a middle ground to be had where some players go for the attack and others don't and it can balance out. There's nothing like that in 2p.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2013, 02:41:10 am by ftl »
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PitzerMike

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Re: Ranking the Expansions
« Reply #67 on: July 10, 2013, 03:46:16 am »
0

Prosperity:
Love: Watchtower | Hate: Talisman

Yay, Watchtower has to be my favorite Dominion card of all time!  :)
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Davio

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Re: Ranking the Expansions
« Reply #68 on: July 10, 2013, 04:28:15 am »
0

Hold the bandwagon!

Fun/Not Fun (I play for fun, shocking, I know)

Dominion: Market/Adventurer
Intrigue: Bridge/Scout
Seaside: Fishing Village/Ghost Ship
Alchemy: Apprentice/Possession
Prosperity: King's Court/Goons
Cornucopia: Menagerie/Tournament
Hinterlands: Inn/Fool's Gold
Dark Ages: Band of Misfits/Rebuild
Guilds: Herald/Soothsayer
Promo: Black Market/Envoy
Base: Curse/Province (yes, I'm picking Curse over Province for this rare occasion)


Re: Attack cards
The reason I don't like them is that they tend to make the games revolve around getting and playing them as quickly and as often as possible and by doing so, because they're attacks, they hamper your opponent's ability to get to the same cards. Player 1 playing a turn 3 Militia and getting a power $5 can easily cause P2 to miss $5 for that shuffle. Dominion is already a game of early advantages with big ramifications. Attacks just tend to make that early luck more important than 2p solitaire games.

I know Donald likes interaction, but I don't mind playing a 2p solitaire game. Maybe people don't like the actual term "Attack" as it feels very hostile. Perhaps people would respond more positively if the attacks were just labeled (and the cards rethemed to fit) "events" or something. Take Rabble for instance, isn't it nicer to say "One of my agents has caused a little Rabble in your kingdom" than "I'm attacking you with this card?"

Heck, now that I'm thinking about it, you could just make an entirely separate card type for it and limit players to playing one Event card at the start of their turn (unless they play a Village-event of course!) which could either be good for them or bad for their opponents or a bit of both. This keeps the interaction aspect, but limits it as to not keep badgering your opponents to reveal Moat 5 times in one turn as you play your Minion stack.
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ftl

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Re: Ranking the Expansions
« Reply #69 on: July 10, 2013, 05:01:39 am »
0

Badgering people to repeatedly do something is entirely an artifact of the online interface, though. When playing face to face, you just reveal Moat for the first one and say "I moat the rest of them too" and that's that.
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Davio

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Re: Ranking the Expansions
« Reply #70 on: July 10, 2013, 05:47:07 am »
0

Well, it just feels like badgering when you're playing more than Attack per turn which actually hurts. :)
Consider Torturer, being the first to get a chain going severely hurts your opponent to get a chain of himself going.
He has to accept Curses, harming his economy in the long run, or discard, harming his economy in the short run. Either way, he's screwed. With the simple Witch it's not so bad, as the Curse comes around a little later. You can still get your own Witch the same turn your opponent plays his and 6-4 splits aren't thát insurmountable.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Ranking the Expansions
« Reply #71 on: July 10, 2013, 09:58:44 am »
0

I like attacks in theory, but the problem is that a lot of the attacks that actually exist are just frustratingly strong.

I think a significant part of this is the community's bias towards two player games, which is not what Dominion was designed for.  In a four player game, you can often forego an attack card with less risk.
I hadn't really considered that.  I haven't played much multiplayer, but the Curses and Ruins have a higher ratio of Curse/Ruin-to-player with more players; wouldn't that make junking attacks generally stronger?  Or is it just that in multiplayer, hurting other players isn't as significant, and that's enough to make up for the higher ratio of junk cards?

Curse to players is the wrong ratio to consider.  You want to look at the ratio of curses to opponents.  That is always 10.  In other words, a game of Dominion has enough Curses to support precisely ten plays of Witch, regardless of the number of players.  Now, that can be mixed up a bit if one player reveals Moat or Trader, or if someone Ambassadors a Curse, or someone purchases an Embargoed card, etc.  But in the standard situation, the number of Curses scales such that precisely 10 instances of "each other player gains a Curse" are supported.

ftl did a fine job analyzing why junkers are less essential in multiplayer games.  It works for other attacks as well.  Especially ones which don't stack, like Militia.  If everyone else played a Militia, yours does nothing but give +$2.  Even when they do stack, it's a matter of opportunity cost.  If your opponents are already duking it out with one another, it is often more viable to simply focus on economy and avoid attacks.

Also, I mentioned Ambassador above.  One really, really important facet of Ambassador, which is completely obscured in two player games, is its ability to deplete piles.  Reveal a Village, don't return it, and then pass out the last three Villages to end the game on piles.  Ambassador is crazy that way in multiplayer, yet it rarely is mentioning in conversations here.
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Tables

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Re: Ranking the Expansions
« Reply #72 on: July 10, 2013, 11:24:50 am »
0

A little more general: Cards I like / Cards I dislike. (Least) Favourites in bold. Note that numbers don't necessarily indicate which sets I like or dislike.

Base: Gardens, Throne Room, Library, Chancellor / Witch, Spy

Intrigue: Wishing Well, Bridge, Conspirator, Scout, Duke / Courtyard, Masquerade, Swindler, Saboteur, Minion

Seaside: Embargo, Native Village, Ambassador, Fishing Village, Lookout, Caravan, Island, Salvager, Tactician, Wharf / Sea Hag, Ghost Ship

Alchemy: Apprentice, University, Vineyard, Possession / Familiar

Prosperity: Bishop, Quarry, Worker's Village, City, Goons, King's Court, Peddler / Mountebank, Counting House

Cornucopia: Horn of Plenty, Fairgrounds / Tournament, Young Witch, Hunting Party

Hinterlands: Crossroads, Scheme, Tunnel, Noble Brigand, Cache, Cartographer, Haggler, Inn, Highway, Border Village / Fool's Gold, Jack of all Trades, Ill Gotten Gains

Dark Ages: Market Square, Fortress, Wandering Minstrel, Scavenger, Band of Misfits, Junk Dealer, Count, Altar / Rebuild, Urchin

Guilds: ??? / ???

Kind of surprising how much I liked in Dark Ages, looking back. Maybe I should re-evaluate it...
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

eliegel34

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Re: Ranking the Expansions
« Reply #73 on: July 10, 2013, 11:38:45 am »
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Call it a cop-out if you want, but my rankings would be as follows:

Base = Intrigue = Seaside = Alchemy = Prosperity = Cornucopia = Hinterlands = Dark Ages = Guilds = Promos

I think it would be a serious blow to the game if any of these sets were removed. I love them all.

To be fair, it probably wouldn't be a serious blow if the promos were removed. I like them a lot but would any of us really be saying "Hmmmm, something is missing" if we didn't have them?
Gotta agree with him. I don't have any on Goko, and I don't feel any loss (though that may be because I don't own them or play on iso enough to see them much.

Funny, I feel the opposite.  I really miss the promos.  I loved Black Market, and those couple Chancellor Stash games that I've played.
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Warfreak2

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Re: Ranking the Expansions
« Reply #74 on: July 10, 2013, 02:40:59 pm »
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I hadn't really considered that.  I haven't played much multiplayer, but the Curses and Ruins have a higher ratio of Curse/Ruin-to-player with more players; wouldn't that make junking attacks generally stronger?
Curse to players is the wrong ratio to consider.
I don't think it's wrong to consider it; in multiplayer games, you are probably going to eat more Curses, and that should have some effect on your strategy. But it doesn't make junking attacks stronger, it makes them stranger, in the sense that they're easier to ignore on the condition that the other players don't ignore them.
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If the only engine on the board is Procession->Conspirator, I will play it.
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