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Author Topic: Mandarin  (Read 16785 times)

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rinkworks

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Mandarin
« on: October 26, 2011, 02:39:38 pm »
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I'm having a tough time figuring out how best to use Mandarin.  The precursor to this post is this snippet of discussion.

I haven't thought of any compelling Mandarin openings yet.  There doesn't necessarily have to be one, but the uniqueness of the card suggests there might be, in the same way that Mint did before any of us came across a genuinely great one (Mint/Fool's Gold).

But never mind openings -- how can one get the most out of Mandarin in general?  Seems like the one obvious solid use of it is in the end-game, when you've got a $5-$7 hand and can buy one to push a couple of Golds to the next turn and increase your chance at $8.

Where I have more trouble is coming up with a use for it after you've bought it.  Maybe there's nothing more to the action component than "terminal Treasure with a penalty," but it seems like there ought to be a situation in which it synergizes with itself a little better.

Because normally that "top-deck a card" penalty is huge.  It's a mistake, I think, to compare it with Courtyard, because Courtyard has a net-cycling effect, speeding you on your way to your new purchases.  Using Mandarin is nothing short of inflicting half a Ghost Ship on yourself, normally a brutal thing to do.  The best I've got for turning that penalty into a positive is when you're greening:  then, the anti-cycling slows the influx of green cards into your actual hands.  But it doesn't do it by very much!  For each shuffle, you usually only get to play Mandarin once.  One play of a Mandarin only has a 20% chance of delaying the reshuffle by a turn (though it may slightly improve the hand that triggers it), and in the meantime it hurts either the hand you play it on or the next one.

Compensating for Mandarin's penalty is +$3.  That's more than most action cards guarantee you, but remember that you're sacrificing two card slots to get it.  That means a yield of $1.5 per each of those two cards, which does not seem very impressive at all.

If the ultimate answer to this line of thought is, "Mandarin's primary use is strategically employing the on-gain effect, and its action component is just there to keep it from being a totally dead card once it's in your deck," then okay.  But I dunno, I can't help but think there's something more to this card I'm just not seeing.
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Epoch

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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2011, 02:42:38 pm »
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I believe that Mandarin is, by far, the worst card in Hinterlands, and arguably the worst in the game.  Explorer might edge it out, I wouldn't know -- I've never bought either one.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2011, 02:49:27 pm »
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Mandarin/Hunting party is currently looking bad on CR.com (with whatever small sample size there currently is), but I think it's a decent mandarin opening. You can get into a HP chain with the single mandarin, and when you have $5 in coins in your hand, you can mandarin back a remaining HP to have one for sure in your next hand.
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chwhite

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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2011, 02:58:17 pm »
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From the other thread:

I'm really struggling to figure out what situations are uniquely ideal for Mandarin, but maybe that's a topic better suited to a new thread.

You are playing a tight, heavily-greened treasure deck, it's near the end of the game, and you have $5 in your hand, so you buy a Mandarin and hope it increases your chance at the last Province next turn.

Or you're going super-heavy Scrying Pool+Village and have cleared out all your treasures and there's no better option for getting cash from Actions, like Harvest or Merchant Ship.  And in that case you take Mandarin not because it's uniquely good, but because it fills a needed niche worse than other cards that aren't there.

Far as I can tell, that's pretty much it.  Mandarin just sucks, and I'm quite comfortable calling it the fourth worst $5 card, better than Explorer, Saboteur, and Stash, with Counting House to round out the bottom 5.

I'm willing to believe that Mandarin is in fact also worse than Stash- my initial opinion was that it was Explorer-level horrible, then I figured maybe it was more useful than that, and now I'm thinking maybe it is actually Explorer-level horrible with perhaps maybe a couple more edge cases where it's worth buying.

Regardless, it's definitely super bad, and I have never ever *ever* been tempted to open Mandarin and get myself a full turn behind, that's for sure.

I believe that Mandarin is, by far, the worst card in Hinterlands, and arguably the worst in the game.  Explorer might edge it out, I wouldn't know -- I've never bought either one.

And as bad as I think Mandarin is, I'm not sure I agree with this.  There are at least a dozen cards that are worse than Mandarin (yes, including the awful Explorer, which I consider second-worst behind Thief), and several contenders within Hinterlands- Duchess, Noble Brigand, and Develop come to mind.

I've ended up with Mandarin in my deck twice.  Once via Jester, which was nice because the action itself isn't so bad if you have enough Villages, and the other time was in fact for endgame Treasure-pushing.
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Epoch

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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2011, 03:02:49 pm »
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And as bad as I think Mandarin is, I'm not sure I agree with this.  There are at least a dozen cards that are worse than Mandarin (yes, including the awful Explorer, which I consider second-worst behind Thief), and several contenders within Hinterlands- Duchess, Noble Brigand, and Develop come to mind.

I don't know, my feeling is that Thief has a perfectly viable, if rare, niche of making people avoid thin decks with lots of high-value treasure, and is really fairly reasonable in four-player.  And, as Geronimoo or someone is fond of pointing out, BMU + 1 Thief beats BMU.

Did you know that BMU + 1 Noble Brigand beats BMU + 1 Smithy?  I was surprised!

Duchess...  well...  I mean, maybe in Gardens decks?

Develop seems like just the combo of "Develop + King's Court + any $5 card you might want to KC" has something going for it.
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Fangz

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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2011, 03:15:34 pm »
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To my mind, there's a variety of situations were Mandarin is very helpful.

One big source of Mandarin's value is if there aren't +buys in the supply and plenty of drawing power. Then a +3/deck can be huge. For example, running a laboratory or minion engine, you can topdeck a laboratory you don't need once you reach $8, stopping yourself from stalling next turn. Or top deck a gold, which is similar.

The second case is if there is tactician. Then there's two ways to play it - if you have strong copper trashing and plenty of silvers, etc, buying a mandarin at the right moment ensures that the next two turns are certain province buys. This can be great if your deck has been polluted with greens. The second possibility is in combination with a village - then two mandarins and a festival, say, produces a double tactician engine that can buy a province a turn. That's pretty nice, and can be quite fast to set up as well. http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201110/26/game-20111026-120934-fb103490.html does 4 in 15 turns, which is alright.

It also works good with crossroad engines. Draw a crossroad without support? Put the crossroad aside. Got some greens but no crossroad? Put the green on top of your deck.

It's too weird a card for there to be a one-size fits all strategy that always works, though.

Anyway by far the worst card in hinterlands is either duchess, or silk roads.
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DG

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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2011, 03:32:00 pm »
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I'm struggling as well to think up times when a mandarin is excellent. The window of opportunity when you might buy it seems small  even when it is useful. I'm beginning to think that it either has unusual defence against attacks or that decks need to be prepared differently before the mandarins are purchased.
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Fangz

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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2011, 03:40:29 pm »
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From a bit of experimentation, it seems like mandarin based strategies aren't necessarily very fast, but they seem more consistent and maybe better at picking up duchies?
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popsofctown

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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2011, 04:32:51 pm »
+1

I think you guys are missing a lot of the point of Mandarin. 

Mandarin increases in value the more inconsistent deck quality is in that bank.  So having a notrash setup is a huge plus for Mandarin.  Efficient cursing, even better.  The card doesn't work in fast, slim, engine based banks.  You just don't buy it then, except for the on-purchase effect which can be worth cursing yourself when you're trying to get your Gold-Gold-Copper hand up to 8.


The first reason Mandarin is good in polluted decks is because, as someone mentioned earlier, it helps you draw certain cards that you want to see together, and polluted decks need more help with that.  You can put action and draw engines together, throne rooms and merchant ships together, whatever it is.

Even more important than that though is that Mandarin lets you get dramatic highs and lows in polluted decks.  In something like a Witch notrash game, both players will ruin eachother's decks and muck income down to a consistent 4, 5, or 6.  Occasionally you'll get a reshuffle with all your curses lumped together and will be able to buy a province with the hand that is free of them, but not often.

Mandarin lets you lump your hands into spikes.  If the rest of your hand has 5$ in treasure, you play it as a terminal gold and just hit a victory card or curse.  If you hand has a silver or a gold and little else, you can play Mandarin to kick the one good card to next turn where it has a better chance of spiking to 8.  Then Mandarin still buys a Silver or better with that crappy hand - and remember in this game silver is going to be good, it's not a curse.

Sometimes you draw highway, mandarin, silver, curse, estate.  Your impulse with that hand is to play your highway, but Mandarin requires a paradigm shift in how you play it.  Playing highway with that hand requires you to see 2$ in 1 draw, a tough order to fill. The better play is Mandarin onto your highway, play the silver, buy a mandarin.  Now the top of your deck is a highway and a silver.  You're going to see 4 more cards in that hand, and they'll only need to total 5$.  That's 1.25$ per card instead of 2$ per card, a much easier order to fill.


And mandarin is, of course, great against attacks.  That much should be obvious.  Unless your opponent is capable of playing a discarder attack every single turn, you can use mandarin to send your good cards to your next hand so that you can buy a province if you aren't attacked next turn.  It also has a unique interaction with minion, against a consistent minion deck, you can put crap on top of your deck and be pretty much guaranteed to discard it, so Mandarin works a lot more like a terminal 3$ there.


As for openings, I thought about this a lot.  Since you guys aren't easily impressed, I'll just list the best of the openings I came up with:
5$, Mandarin
5$, Mandarin
4$ or 5$ Terminal action: Bridge or Jester or Mine
2$- any 2$ card, or a copper.

The idea behind this is to have 3 purchases during the second reshuffle, getting them all in before the reshuffle.  The other idea behind this is that your starting deck has no terminals in it, so getting several of them early creates an advantage.  I calculated the odds of drawing so many terminals together that you fail to play them during the second reshuffle.  Due to Mandarin's "this goes with this" powers, it came out to like 3 or 4%.  Your deck will have 14 cards, so unless both your Mandarins get bottomdecked, you'll have exactly 3 buys before your second reshuffle.  Most of the time you'll play both Mandarins, making your deck behave similar to a 16 card deck, as close to a multiple of 5 as possible without being rather risky.

The vast majority of the time, you'll play all 3 terminals with this deck, implying that you'll get 8 copper + 3$ +3$ +2$, so 16$ divided over 3 turns, a 5 each turn.  More like 15$ since you'll probably bottomdeck a copper.  That's assuming there wasn't a good 2, and you couldn't get anything better than a Monument as your terminal action.  And you'll never get stuck with an awkward 7$, if you count it out, it's impossible to 7$ (if it's race to the expand, don't do this).  You'll also have some ability to manipulate whether you get 3 5's or a 6-5-4 split of the money.

I think that's a pretty neat lead, but admittedly you need a favorable pool.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2011, 04:37:20 pm by popsofctown »
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hobo386

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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2011, 05:13:42 pm »
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Well, you bring up mint in the first post.  What about Mandarin->Mint->2?

I've never tried it, and it certainly isn't as good as mint/FG, but it should theoretically give you the nice early trashing boost of Mint while keeping enough cash to quickstart your economy.
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rinkworks

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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2011, 07:20:34 pm »
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I think you guys are missing a lot of the point of Mandarin.

Great post, and exactly the kind of thing I was looking for.  It'll take some time to digest it, and I admit to being skeptical about some of it.  But this gives me some avenues of exploration, where previously I had none at all.  Thank you!
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DG

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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2011, 08:37:00 pm »
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Quote
As for openings, I thought about this a lot.  Since you guys aren't easily impressed, I'll just list the best of the openings I came up with:
5$, Mandarin
5$, Mandarin
4$ or 5$ Terminal action: Bridge or Jester or Mine
2$- any 2$ card, or a copper.

The idea behind this is to have 3 purchases during the second reshuffle, getting them all in before the reshuffle.  The other idea behind this is that your starting deck has no terminals in it, so getting several of them early creates an advantage.  I calculated the odds of drawing so many terminals together that you fail to play them during the second reshuffle.  Due to Mandarin's "this goes with this" powers, it came out to like 3 or 4%.  Your deck will have 14 cards, so unless both your Mandarins get bottomdecked, you'll have exactly 3 buys before your second reshuffle.  Most of the time you'll play both Mandarins, making your deck behave similar to a 16 card deck, as close to a multiple of 5 as possible without being rather risky.

I've not played with the mandarin yet so I'm clearly not certain of it's abilities. However, getting three buys of 5 from the first four turns isn't so special. Opening with a merchant ship will probably get you three buys of 4-6. The lack of collision is good but the extra actions you're fitting into the deck are mandarins (that need to perform better than a treasure) and the terminal collision is resolved by delaying the benefits of your other good cards. There's also the thought that by taking Mandarins first you are delaying the benefits of your other cards, such as the jester you gave as an example. I'm pretty sure that taking two jesters in the first four turns will be better than taking two mandarins then a jester, and will continue to be better throughout a money game. Taking a mandarin then two jesters won't reduce any collisions.

Mandarin/hunting party seems good however, better than just opening with hunting party anyway.
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popsofctown

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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2011, 08:41:02 pm »
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The opening is definitely sketchy.

But deck manipulation is a big part of the card.  One thing I forgot to mention is that like chancellor, the better you are at card counting the stronger the card will be.  If you know the remainder of your deck is crappy, make the best of the hand that you have and crap it up further with an estate.  If you know that your best cards are in your last few cards, send some treasure to your next turn.

That also matters for interactions too, if you are going to make 6 or 7$ this turn and don't care which and you have an empty Native Village and Copper in hand, it helps to know that your last five cards are guaranteed not to have any smithies... you get it.
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Mean Mr Mustard

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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2011, 08:59:53 pm »
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I actually kind of like Explorer on slow boards.  I have never considered it a worst of the worst card.

Edit: Out of the last ten games that I bought Explorer I won seven.  In those games my opponents bought a total of zero.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2011, 09:05:54 pm by Mean Mr Mustard »
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popsofctown

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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2011, 09:25:54 pm »
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I like it on slow boards too.  That doesn't mean it's not the worst card though.  EVERYTHING has a board for it.
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Elyv

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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2011, 10:41:14 pm »
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Counting House is the worst card.

Edit: Well actually Curse is the worst card, counting house is just the worst card not in every game.
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chwhite

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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2011, 10:53:35 pm »
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Counting House is the worst card.

Edit: Well actually Curse is the worst card, counting house is just the worst card not in every game.

Counting House is so good, it lets you win games where your opponent opens 5/2 with a Mountebank while you're stuck at 4/3:

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110901-113804-d99bff63.html
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Elyv

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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2011, 11:01:47 pm »
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Counting House is the worst card.

Edit: Well actually Curse is the worst card, counting house is just the worst card not in every game.

Counting House is so good, it lets you win games where your opponent opens 5/2 with a Mountebank while you're stuck at 4/3:

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110901-113804-d99bff63.html
Okay, that was awesome.

I guess I'm willing to admit that counting house might be better than thief, at least.
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chwhite

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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2011, 11:14:32 pm »
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Counting House is the worst card.

Edit: Well actually Curse is the worst card, counting house is just the worst card not in every game.

Counting House is so good, it lets you win games where your opponent opens 5/2 with a Mountebank while you're stuck at 4/3:

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110901-113804-d99bff63.html
Okay, that was awesome.

I guess I'm willing to admit that counting house might be better than thief, at least.

Beating Mountebanks is the one thing Counting House is actually really good at.  Haven't tried it yet, but I'd be willing to bet it works well with Ill-Gotten Gains, too.
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AJD

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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2011, 11:37:04 pm »
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Beating Mountebanks is the one thing Counting House is actually really good at.  Haven't tried it yet, but I'd be willing to bet it works well with Ill-Gotten Gains, too.

I had a pretty good Counting House / Cache / Haven game the other day.
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popsofctown

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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #20 on: October 27, 2011, 01:52:46 am »
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I don't think explorer is the worst card either I was just trying to make a point.  Explorer has its moments, plenty
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Zaphod

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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #21 on: October 27, 2011, 06:47:53 pm »
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I'm not sure if this would be a good idea or not, but I'm tempted to try it some day...

Turn 1: Buy Mandarin
Turn 2: Buy Mandarin
Turn 3: Buy Mandarin
Turn 4: Buy Apprentice

The idea would be to use Apprentice to trash the Mandarins to draw five cards.  As I said, I haven't tried it yet and I'm not sure how well it would work.
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ChaosRed

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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #22 on: October 27, 2011, 06:51:50 pm »
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I continue to fall flat on my face with Hinterlands.

I was above .500 before HL came along. I am now like 2-11 since it came out.

Mandarin is one reason why, tricky card to play and one of those cards you have to watch when and how you buy.

Hinterlands has a skill level to it, that I simply do not have. I'll keep plugging away, but if Donald X needs proof this is a more advanced set, I'd like to send him my last 13 gaming logs. :)
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Epoch

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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #23 on: October 27, 2011, 07:01:14 pm »
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Mandarin is one reason why, tricky card to play and one of those cards you have to watch when and how you buy.

I have a nice, simple heuristic for how to play Mandarin:

Don't.

There, you're done.  While I'm sure that my nice, simple heuristic is not absolutely perfect, it should take you well above your current level of play.  When you're level 30, you can go back and try to develop a more complicated play-relationship with Mandarin.
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rod-

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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #24 on: October 27, 2011, 07:16:56 pm »
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Hinterlands has a skill level to it, that I simply do not have. I'll keep plugging away, but if Donald X needs proof this is a more advanced set, I'd like to send him my last 13 gaming logs. :)
Do you have logs for all of your games immediately after cornucopia made it to isotropic?
I'm not convinced that it's "this set's cards are hard" more than "some people are bad at evaluating/using new cards without experience".  After having played through 10 years of Magic set releases, the latter category remains mostly constant, while the former fluctuates considerably.  I don't have enough experience with Dominion releases to really differentiate between the two, and hinterlands does seem to have a few more tricky cards than most, but nothing that makes me think a reasonably skilled player without a lot of experience will lose 85% of his games with it.
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