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[ChaosRed]

Do you have logs for all of your games immediately after cornucopia made it to isotropic?
I'm not convinced that it's "this set's cards are hard" more than "some people are bad at evaluating/using new cards without experience".  After having played through 10 years of Magic set releases, the latter category remains mostly constant, while the former fluctuates considerably.  I don't have enough experience with Dominion releases to really differentiate between the two, and hinterlands does seem to have a few more tricky cards than most, but nothing that makes me think a reasonably skilled player without a lot of experience will lose 85% of his games with it.

I've only played Dominion for a few months, so this is the first expansion to release since I started playing. The thing is, I was getting relatively good at reading the board. I was winning regularly and climbing the ranks. Since HL has come out I've gone from level 18 (or so) to probably level 11 or so after today.

So yeah, you ar right, I do have a hard time reading new cards, for me what makes HL trickier is MANY of the cards are not only judging their talents but also WHEN to buy them and even HOW to buy them. It has an extra-layer to it, that sets like Intrigue and Base Set simply do not have.

[Jimmmmm]

I'm not sure if this would be a good idea or not, but I'm tempted to try it some day...

Turn 1: Buy Mandarin
Turn 2: Buy Mandarin
Turn 3: Buy Mandarin
Turn 4: Buy Apprentice

The idea would be to use Apprentice to trash the Mandarins to draw five cards.  As I said, I haven't tried it yet and I'm not sure how well it would work.

Hmm yes, possible the presence of any trash-for-benefit card could be reason enough to get a mass of $5 cards in your deck early. Then any turn you don't draw your trasher you can put back on deck whatever it is you most want trashed.

[DStu]

Mandarin is one reason why, tricky card to play and one of those cards you have to watch when and how you buy.

I have a nice, simple heuristic for how to play Mandarin:

Don't.

There, you're done.  While I'm sure that my nice, simple heuristic is not absolutely perfect, it should take you well above your current level of play.  When you're level 30, you can go back and try to develop a more complicated play-relationship with Mandarin.

And if you're there, the more complicated relationship with Mandarin is to look if it's on a board, think about a strategy where it could be usefull and then don't buy it until you're level 40.

[gamesou]

Maybe Mandarin can synergize with Duke ? Buying 3-4 Mandarins early guarantees you to hit $5 for most of the remaining turns, even if you buy only Duke/Duchies.

I tried this strategy once, I was not really convinced by it, but around this idea one may find a decent use of Mandarin. I guess a 5/2 start is useful, since you may open by multiple Mandarins.

Here is the game : http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111015-144135-cba1ded4.html

[DG]

Mandarin is still puzzling me so I've looked through some Mandarin games in the council room, actually quite a lot of games. The results are carnage and disaster. It was a losing card in most situations and when bought for advantage in a winning deck it was peripheral to the strategy and did not change the game. Perhaps I need to look through some better quality games, hopefully played by people who realise that a highway without extra buys/gains is a poor card.

I did find this gem though. The name has been changed to protect the guilty.

Code: [Select]

--- anonymous's turn 17 ---
anonymous plays a King's Court.
... and plays a King's Court.
... ... and plays a King's Court.
... ... ... and plays a Shanty Town.
... ... ... ... revealing an Estate.
... ... ... ... drawing 2 cards and getting +2 actions.
... ... ... and plays the Shanty Town again.
... ... ... ... revealing a Shanty Town, an Estate, and a Contraband.
... ... ... ... getting +2 actions.
... ... ... and plays the Shanty Town a third time.
... ... ... ... revealing a Shanty Town, an Estate, and a Contraband.
... ... ... ... getting +2 actions.
... ... and plays the King's Court again.
... ... ... and plays a Shanty Town.
... ... ... ... revealing an Estate and a Contraband.
... ... ... ... drawing 2 cards and getting +2 actions.
... ... ... and plays the Shanty Town again.
... ... ... ... revealing a Shanty Town, an Estate, a Contraband, and a Copper.
... ... ... ... getting +2 actions.
... ... ... and plays the Shanty Town a third time.
... ... ... ... revealing a Shanty Town, an Estate, a Contraband, and a Copper.
... ... ... ... getting +2 actions.
... ... and plays the King's Court a third time.
... ... ... and plays a Shanty Town.
... ... ... ... revealing an Estate, a Contraband, and a Copper.
... ... ... ... drawing 2 cards and getting +2 actions.
... ... ... and plays the Shanty Town again.
... ... ... ... revealing a Platinum, a Mandarin, an Estate, a Contraband, and a Copper.
... ... ... ... getting +2 actions.
... ... ... and plays the Shanty Town a third time.
... ... ... ... revealing a Platinum, a Mandarin, an Estate, a Contraband, and a Copper.
... ... ... ... getting +2 actions.
... and plays the King's Court again.
... ... and plays a Mandarin.
... ... ... getting +$3.
... ... ... putting 1 card from hand back on the deck.
... ... and plays the Mandarin again.
... ... ... getting +$3.
... ... ... putting 1 card from hand back on the deck.
... ... and plays the Mandarin a third time.
... ... ... getting +$3.
... ... ... putting 1 card from hand back on the deck.
... and plays the King's Court a third time.
... ... but plays no action with it.
anonymous plays a Contraband.
... Sobri prohibits anonymous from buying Colonies.
anonymous buys a King's Court.
anonymous buys a Shanty Town.
(anonymous draws: a Platinum, 2 Estates, and 2 Coppers.)

[chwhite]

I was beaten yesterday by the dreaded Mandarin/Mandarin/Mandarin/Apprentice opening.  It was actually quite strong.

Mandarin is one reason why, tricky card to play and one of those cards you have to watch when and how you buy.

I have a nice, simple heuristic for how to play Mandarin:

Don't.

There, you're done.  While I'm sure that my nice, simple heuristic is not absolutely perfect, it should take you well above your current level of play.  When you're level 30, you can go back and try to develop a more complicated play-relationship with Mandarin.

And if you're there, the more complicated relationship with Mandarin is to look if it's on a board, think about a strategy where it could be usefull and then don't buy it until you're level 40.

This is sort of my relationship with Develop, though in that case I suspect it's prudent to wait until level 50.

[mnavratil]

This is the only game I could find where I used Mandarin to any effect:
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111020-161844-1005f550.html

I used Mandarin to top-deck a province on turns 10 and 13 to get drawn with a tournament the next hand (I guess this has the added effect of blocking opposing tournaments for an extra turn). Also, the early $3 helps here to get the first province.

If I would have opened 4/3; however, I don't know if  I would have picked Mandarin up along the way.

So Mandarin/Tournament seems okay.

[Empathy]

Perhaps I need to look through some better quality games, hopefully played by people who realise that a highway without extra buys/gains is a poor card.

Don't forget saboteur!

I have won a few games now by getting highways without impressive buy/gain cards (or none altogether), just splashing a saboteur to play after a quadruple highway. It is definitely game changing.

Chapel/highway/saboteur in particular can be scary if the other player completely ignores the highway.

Sorry if this is a bit off-topic xD.

[popsofctown]

I wouldn't expect Mandarin to work well with Duke.  Hitting 5 consistently isn't hard, you need neither Mandarin's on-buy effect nor its on play effect to accomplish that.  If you want to pay five for something that makes sure you hit Dukes and Duchys buy a Vault or a Contraband or a Cache or a Jester or a Wharf or a ...

You use it for Province spiking, and you only use it in notrash games.  Seriously.

[LastFootnote]

I have yet to play with the Hinterlands cards (I promised my wife), but it seems to me that Mandarin's ability to put any card back on your deck could be useful in carrying a Reaction card across many consecutive hands.

For instance, if you were to open 2/5, you could buy Moat/Mandarin. If they appear in the same hand, play the Mandarin and put the Moat in your next hand. If Moat appears alone, play it. In an attack-heavy game, Moat's protection is more useful than its +2 Cards. However, this plan does have the disadvantage of not giving access to use Moat's Reaction ability until at least turn 4.

This would be more useful in a 3- or 4-player game where Reactions are more practical, of course. It could also work with Secret Chamber/Watchtower/Horse Traders/Trader/Tunnel. It could be nice occasionally with Fool's Gold, but probably not worth shooting for intentionally.

I'm not sure it's a viable strategy in reality, but it sounds good initially on paper.

[WanderingWinder]

I find that, say, in big-money decks, Mandarin is helpful in getting me a gold before the second reshuffle. Say I've got silver-copper-copper-copper estate, AND there isn't a power 5 I want, I want gold, then I buy mandarin and have a good chance of hitting gold on the next turn. So it's sorta nice for weak big money-ish with a few non-draw terminals sprinkled in, a deck where treasures are your bread-and-butter. Which, hey I specialize in. But mostly the buy effect is its strength.

[HiveMindEmulator]

But mostly the buy effect is its strength.

Quoted for truth. Mandarin without the on-gain effect would be a $2-3 card. You have to abuse the on-gain mechanic and/or have no better ways to spend $5.

[DG]

For instance, if you were to open 2/5, you could buy Moat/Mandarin. If they appear in the same hand, play the Mandarin and put the Moat in your next hand. If Moat appears alone, play it.

Indeed I did look for this and believe it to be possible. However I specifically looked for it in some of the council room logs and I found nobody who pulled it off. I suspect that buying an attack card is just a better use of 5 coins than buying the mandarin for improved defence. Perhaps the balance shifts in a 4 player game where defences become more important.

[WanderingWinder]

But mostly the buy effect is its strength.

Quoted for truth. Mandarin without the on-gain effect would be a $2-3 card. You have to abuse the on-gain mechanic and/or have no better ways to spend $5.

If it cost 2, it might be the 2nd strongest 2 (after chapel). It would be a pretty strong 3, though a very mild 4. Probably a touch worse than cutpurse - much worse as an opener, significantly better as the game went on.

[HiveMindEmulator]

^Thinking about it, I guess it might be $4, since a mandarin/mandarin opening might be a bit on the strong side. But I guess my point was that beyond that, it's pretty unimpressive, usually no better than silver or courtyard.

[Zaphod]

I was beaten yesterday by the dreaded Mandarin/Mandarin/Mandarin/Apprentice opening.  It was actually quite strong.

Cool!  Let me throw out another one, then...

Turn 1: 5 Copper, buy a Mandarin, put 5 Copper back on top of your draw pile
Turn 2: Buy an Inn, put the Inn and the Mandarin back in your draw pile and shuffle it
Turn 3: Play Inn, draw 2 cards, discard 2 Estates, play Mandarin, put the other Estate on your draw pile, play two Coppers, buy a Torturer

That gives you three cost-5 cards before your first shuffle.  Inn would combo well with Torturer because it draws two cards, making it more likely you'll pick up a Torturer.  Mandarin is useful in that set because if you draw it with a Torturer but not an Inn, you can put the Torturer on top of your deck, so it's easier to get a chain going.  If you played a Torturer chain but didn't reshuffle, it's a good time to buy an Inn.

I think we're going to find many ideas like this with the Hinterlands cards.  The "when you gain" dynamic is very interesting.

[Wingnut]

A late game haggler/mandarin combo is quite nice. Haggler allows you to gain mandarin after buying a province, putting the treasures back on your deck and allowing another province buy with the same treasure.

In this game, I used it to buy the final province.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/03/game-20111103-010419-638a80af.html

[Rabid]

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111101-092759-750c191c.html

Mandarin / Hunting Party / Nothing seems quite strong.
Only tried it once but worked quite well.
You get to put the last HP back on top once you have enough in hand for this turns buy.

[DG]

I ended up finding or inventing about a dozen different situations where you could get advantage from a mandarin but nothing that stood out as a fantastic game winner. So perhaps that will be the nature of the card. It's +3 coins so if you can turns its disadvantages into advantages, even minor ones, then it's a good card.

[DStu]

It might be really good in "I draw my whole deck and have more KC than I need"-type of deck, as KC-Mandarin gives $9 AND let you design your next turn. If that can be something like KC-KC-Smithy, or KC-Lab-X, it prevents the KC-spree from stopping.
But of course there is tough competition under these circumstences, nevertheless I have the feeling that this might be one of the situations where I might buy a Mandarin before getting to level 40...

[popsofctown]

Come on.  You guys had to be kidding about not buying it at all before level 40.

It could say "+0$, gain a curse", and there would still be times where the buy effect is worthwhile.  If you're tied with one province left and draw nothing except two golds and buy a duchy then I don't know what to tell you.

[DStu]

Come on.  You guys had to be kidding about not buying it at all before level 40.

Of course we're kind of  kidding, but look where it came from.  We were talking about heuristics, ChaosRed was looking for a way on how to include Mandarin in the deck, and then, unless you have more serious problems than getting the last few percent out of your deck, just ignore it and think about the rest of the kingdom. You will most likely find more there than in Mandarin.
That was level 30.
And now I just wanted to stress that also at this level, ignoring Mandarin will not really harm you much. Of course you should begin to not have many more serious problems, at least not many that are much more easier to handle than Mandarin. But it's still a difficult card, that can have drawbacks for you both on buy and on play. It can also have advantages, but usually they are not so huge that not buying Mandarin will kill you.

It might be fun to get some value out of Mandarin, but if you don't, this will not be the card that prevents you from getting to 40...

[popsofctown]

Yeah, it's not going to kill your winrate to ignore the card.  But I don't think it's that difficult to use the buy effect by itself during province phase.

[mathguy]

Late game: Platinum, Platinum, Platinum, Festival (or any +$,+buy), X

Buy colony+Mandarin and push your Platinums forward. This seems like it has potential if your deck has lots of festivals. It also seems very slow/hard to set up.