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rinkworks

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Mandarin
« on: October 26, 2011, 02:39:38 pm »
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I'm having a tough time figuring out how best to use Mandarin.  The precursor to this post is this snippet of discussion.

I haven't thought of any compelling Mandarin openings yet.  There doesn't necessarily have to be one, but the uniqueness of the card suggests there might be, in the same way that Mint did before any of us came across a genuinely great one (Mint/Fool's Gold).

But never mind openings -- how can one get the most out of Mandarin in general?  Seems like the one obvious solid use of it is in the end-game, when you've got a $5-$7 hand and can buy one to push a couple of Golds to the next turn and increase your chance at $8.

Where I have more trouble is coming up with a use for it after you've bought it.  Maybe there's nothing more to the action component than "terminal Treasure with a penalty," but it seems like there ought to be a situation in which it synergizes with itself a little better.

Because normally that "top-deck a card" penalty is huge.  It's a mistake, I think, to compare it with Courtyard, because Courtyard has a net-cycling effect, speeding you on your way to your new purchases.  Using Mandarin is nothing short of inflicting half a Ghost Ship on yourself, normally a brutal thing to do.  The best I've got for turning that penalty into a positive is when you're greening:  then, the anti-cycling slows the influx of green cards into your actual hands.  But it doesn't do it by very much!  For each shuffle, you usually only get to play Mandarin once.  One play of a Mandarin only has a 20% chance of delaying the reshuffle by a turn (though it may slightly improve the hand that triggers it), and in the meantime it hurts either the hand you play it on or the next one.

Compensating for Mandarin's penalty is +$3.  That's more than most action cards guarantee you, but remember that you're sacrificing two card slots to get it.  That means a yield of $1.5 per each of those two cards, which does not seem very impressive at all.

If the ultimate answer to this line of thought is, "Mandarin's primary use is strategically employing the on-gain effect, and its action component is just there to keep it from being a totally dead card once it's in your deck," then okay.  But I dunno, I can't help but think there's something more to this card I'm just not seeing.
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Epoch

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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2011, 02:42:38 pm »
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I believe that Mandarin is, by far, the worst card in Hinterlands, and arguably the worst in the game.  Explorer might edge it out, I wouldn't know -- I've never bought either one.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2011, 02:49:27 pm »
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Mandarin/Hunting party is currently looking bad on CR.com (with whatever small sample size there currently is), but I think it's a decent mandarin opening. You can get into a HP chain with the single mandarin, and when you have $5 in coins in your hand, you can mandarin back a remaining HP to have one for sure in your next hand.
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chwhite

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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2011, 02:58:17 pm »
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From the other thread:

I'm really struggling to figure out what situations are uniquely ideal for Mandarin, but maybe that's a topic better suited to a new thread.

You are playing a tight, heavily-greened treasure deck, it's near the end of the game, and you have $5 in your hand, so you buy a Mandarin and hope it increases your chance at the last Province next turn.

Or you're going super-heavy Scrying Pool+Village and have cleared out all your treasures and there's no better option for getting cash from Actions, like Harvest or Merchant Ship.  And in that case you take Mandarin not because it's uniquely good, but because it fills a needed niche worse than other cards that aren't there.

Far as I can tell, that's pretty much it.  Mandarin just sucks, and I'm quite comfortable calling it the fourth worst $5 card, better than Explorer, Saboteur, and Stash, with Counting House to round out the bottom 5.

I'm willing to believe that Mandarin is in fact also worse than Stash- my initial opinion was that it was Explorer-level horrible, then I figured maybe it was more useful than that, and now I'm thinking maybe it is actually Explorer-level horrible with perhaps maybe a couple more edge cases where it's worth buying.

Regardless, it's definitely super bad, and I have never ever *ever* been tempted to open Mandarin and get myself a full turn behind, that's for sure.

I believe that Mandarin is, by far, the worst card in Hinterlands, and arguably the worst in the game.  Explorer might edge it out, I wouldn't know -- I've never bought either one.

And as bad as I think Mandarin is, I'm not sure I agree with this.  There are at least a dozen cards that are worse than Mandarin (yes, including the awful Explorer, which I consider second-worst behind Thief), and several contenders within Hinterlands- Duchess, Noble Brigand, and Develop come to mind.

I've ended up with Mandarin in my deck twice.  Once via Jester, which was nice because the action itself isn't so bad if you have enough Villages, and the other time was in fact for endgame Treasure-pushing.
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Epoch

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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2011, 03:02:49 pm »
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And as bad as I think Mandarin is, I'm not sure I agree with this.  There are at least a dozen cards that are worse than Mandarin (yes, including the awful Explorer, which I consider second-worst behind Thief), and several contenders within Hinterlands- Duchess, Noble Brigand, and Develop come to mind.

I don't know, my feeling is that Thief has a perfectly viable, if rare, niche of making people avoid thin decks with lots of high-value treasure, and is really fairly reasonable in four-player.  And, as Geronimoo or someone is fond of pointing out, BMU + 1 Thief beats BMU.

Did you know that BMU + 1 Noble Brigand beats BMU + 1 Smithy?  I was surprised!

Duchess...  well...  I mean, maybe in Gardens decks?

Develop seems like just the combo of "Develop + King's Court + any $5 card you might want to KC" has something going for it.
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Fangz

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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2011, 03:15:34 pm »
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To my mind, there's a variety of situations were Mandarin is very helpful.

One big source of Mandarin's value is if there aren't +buys in the supply and plenty of drawing power. Then a +3/deck can be huge. For example, running a laboratory or minion engine, you can topdeck a laboratory you don't need once you reach $8, stopping yourself from stalling next turn. Or top deck a gold, which is similar.

The second case is if there is tactician. Then there's two ways to play it - if you have strong copper trashing and plenty of silvers, etc, buying a mandarin at the right moment ensures that the next two turns are certain province buys. This can be great if your deck has been polluted with greens. The second possibility is in combination with a village - then two mandarins and a festival, say, produces a double tactician engine that can buy a province a turn. That's pretty nice, and can be quite fast to set up as well. http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201110/26/game-20111026-120934-fb103490.html does 4 in 15 turns, which is alright.

It also works good with crossroad engines. Draw a crossroad without support? Put the crossroad aside. Got some greens but no crossroad? Put the green on top of your deck.

It's too weird a card for there to be a one-size fits all strategy that always works, though.

Anyway by far the worst card in hinterlands is either duchess, or silk roads.
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DG

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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2011, 03:32:00 pm »
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I'm struggling as well to think up times when a mandarin is excellent. The window of opportunity when you might buy it seems small  even when it is useful. I'm beginning to think that it either has unusual defence against attacks or that decks need to be prepared differently before the mandarins are purchased.
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Fangz

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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2011, 03:40:29 pm »
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From a bit of experimentation, it seems like mandarin based strategies aren't necessarily very fast, but they seem more consistent and maybe better at picking up duchies?
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popsofctown

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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2011, 04:32:51 pm »
+1

I think you guys are missing a lot of the point of Mandarin. 

Mandarin increases in value the more inconsistent deck quality is in that bank.  So having a notrash setup is a huge plus for Mandarin.  Efficient cursing, even better.  The card doesn't work in fast, slim, engine based banks.  You just don't buy it then, except for the on-purchase effect which can be worth cursing yourself when you're trying to get your Gold-Gold-Copper hand up to 8.


The first reason Mandarin is good in polluted decks is because, as someone mentioned earlier, it helps you draw certain cards that you want to see together, and polluted decks need more help with that.  You can put action and draw engines together, throne rooms and merchant ships together, whatever it is.

Even more important than that though is that Mandarin lets you get dramatic highs and lows in polluted decks.  In something like a Witch notrash game, both players will ruin eachother's decks and muck income down to a consistent 4, 5, or 6.  Occasionally you'll get a reshuffle with all your curses lumped together and will be able to buy a province with the hand that is free of them, but not often.

Mandarin lets you lump your hands into spikes.  If the rest of your hand has 5$ in treasure, you play it as a terminal gold and just hit a victory card or curse.  If you hand has a silver or a gold and little else, you can play Mandarin to kick the one good card to next turn where it has a better chance of spiking to 8.  Then Mandarin still buys a Silver or better with that crappy hand - and remember in this game silver is going to be good, it's not a curse.

Sometimes you draw highway, mandarin, silver, curse, estate.  Your impulse with that hand is to play your highway, but Mandarin requires a paradigm shift in how you play it.  Playing highway with that hand requires you to see 2$ in 1 draw, a tough order to fill. The better play is Mandarin onto your highway, play the silver, buy a mandarin.  Now the top of your deck is a highway and a silver.  You're going to see 4 more cards in that hand, and they'll only need to total 5$.  That's 1.25$ per card instead of 2$ per card, a much easier order to fill.


And mandarin is, of course, great against attacks.  That much should be obvious.  Unless your opponent is capable of playing a discarder attack every single turn, you can use mandarin to send your good cards to your next hand so that you can buy a province if you aren't attacked next turn.  It also has a unique interaction with minion, against a consistent minion deck, you can put crap on top of your deck and be pretty much guaranteed to discard it, so Mandarin works a lot more like a terminal 3$ there.


As for openings, I thought about this a lot.  Since you guys aren't easily impressed, I'll just list the best of the openings I came up with:
5$, Mandarin
5$, Mandarin
4$ or 5$ Terminal action: Bridge or Jester or Mine
2$- any 2$ card, or a copper.

The idea behind this is to have 3 purchases during the second reshuffle, getting them all in before the reshuffle.  The other idea behind this is that your starting deck has no terminals in it, so getting several of them early creates an advantage.  I calculated the odds of drawing so many terminals together that you fail to play them during the second reshuffle.  Due to Mandarin's "this goes with this" powers, it came out to like 3 or 4%.  Your deck will have 14 cards, so unless both your Mandarins get bottomdecked, you'll have exactly 3 buys before your second reshuffle.  Most of the time you'll play both Mandarins, making your deck behave similar to a 16 card deck, as close to a multiple of 5 as possible without being rather risky.

The vast majority of the time, you'll play all 3 terminals with this deck, implying that you'll get 8 copper + 3$ +3$ +2$, so 16$ divided over 3 turns, a 5 each turn.  More like 15$ since you'll probably bottomdeck a copper.  That's assuming there wasn't a good 2, and you couldn't get anything better than a Monument as your terminal action.  And you'll never get stuck with an awkward 7$, if you count it out, it's impossible to 7$ (if it's race to the expand, don't do this).  You'll also have some ability to manipulate whether you get 3 5's or a 6-5-4 split of the money.

I think that's a pretty neat lead, but admittedly you need a favorable pool.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2011, 04:37:20 pm by popsofctown »
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hobo386

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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2011, 05:13:42 pm »
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Well, you bring up mint in the first post.  What about Mandarin->Mint->2?

I've never tried it, and it certainly isn't as good as mint/FG, but it should theoretically give you the nice early trashing boost of Mint while keeping enough cash to quickstart your economy.
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rinkworks

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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2011, 07:20:34 pm »
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I think you guys are missing a lot of the point of Mandarin.

Great post, and exactly the kind of thing I was looking for.  It'll take some time to digest it, and I admit to being skeptical about some of it.  But this gives me some avenues of exploration, where previously I had none at all.  Thank you!
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DG

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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2011, 08:37:00 pm »
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Quote
As for openings, I thought about this a lot.  Since you guys aren't easily impressed, I'll just list the best of the openings I came up with:
5$, Mandarin
5$, Mandarin
4$ or 5$ Terminal action: Bridge or Jester or Mine
2$- any 2$ card, or a copper.

The idea behind this is to have 3 purchases during the second reshuffle, getting them all in before the reshuffle.  The other idea behind this is that your starting deck has no terminals in it, so getting several of them early creates an advantage.  I calculated the odds of drawing so many terminals together that you fail to play them during the second reshuffle.  Due to Mandarin's "this goes with this" powers, it came out to like 3 or 4%.  Your deck will have 14 cards, so unless both your Mandarins get bottomdecked, you'll have exactly 3 buys before your second reshuffle.  Most of the time you'll play both Mandarins, making your deck behave similar to a 16 card deck, as close to a multiple of 5 as possible without being rather risky.

I've not played with the mandarin yet so I'm clearly not certain of it's abilities. However, getting three buys of 5 from the first four turns isn't so special. Opening with a merchant ship will probably get you three buys of 4-6. The lack of collision is good but the extra actions you're fitting into the deck are mandarins (that need to perform better than a treasure) and the terminal collision is resolved by delaying the benefits of your other good cards. There's also the thought that by taking Mandarins first you are delaying the benefits of your other cards, such as the jester you gave as an example. I'm pretty sure that taking two jesters in the first four turns will be better than taking two mandarins then a jester, and will continue to be better throughout a money game. Taking a mandarin then two jesters won't reduce any collisions.

Mandarin/hunting party seems good however, better than just opening with hunting party anyway.
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popsofctown

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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2011, 08:41:02 pm »
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The opening is definitely sketchy.

But deck manipulation is a big part of the card.  One thing I forgot to mention is that like chancellor, the better you are at card counting the stronger the card will be.  If you know the remainder of your deck is crappy, make the best of the hand that you have and crap it up further with an estate.  If you know that your best cards are in your last few cards, send some treasure to your next turn.

That also matters for interactions too, if you are going to make 6 or 7$ this turn and don't care which and you have an empty Native Village and Copper in hand, it helps to know that your last five cards are guaranteed not to have any smithies... you get it.
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Mean Mr Mustard

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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2011, 08:59:53 pm »
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I actually kind of like Explorer on slow boards.  I have never considered it a worst of the worst card.

Edit: Out of the last ten games that I bought Explorer I won seven.  In those games my opponents bought a total of zero.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2011, 09:05:54 pm by Mean Mr Mustard »
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popsofctown

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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2011, 09:25:54 pm »
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I like it on slow boards too.  That doesn't mean it's not the worst card though.  EVERYTHING has a board for it.
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Elyv

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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2011, 10:41:14 pm »
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Counting House is the worst card.

Edit: Well actually Curse is the worst card, counting house is just the worst card not in every game.
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chwhite

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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2011, 10:53:35 pm »
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Counting House is the worst card.

Edit: Well actually Curse is the worst card, counting house is just the worst card not in every game.

Counting House is so good, it lets you win games where your opponent opens 5/2 with a Mountebank while you're stuck at 4/3:

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110901-113804-d99bff63.html
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Elyv

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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2011, 11:01:47 pm »
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Counting House is the worst card.

Edit: Well actually Curse is the worst card, counting house is just the worst card not in every game.

Counting House is so good, it lets you win games where your opponent opens 5/2 with a Mountebank while you're stuck at 4/3:

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110901-113804-d99bff63.html
Okay, that was awesome.

I guess I'm willing to admit that counting house might be better than thief, at least.
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chwhite

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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2011, 11:14:32 pm »
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Counting House is the worst card.

Edit: Well actually Curse is the worst card, counting house is just the worst card not in every game.

Counting House is so good, it lets you win games where your opponent opens 5/2 with a Mountebank while you're stuck at 4/3:

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110901-113804-d99bff63.html
Okay, that was awesome.

I guess I'm willing to admit that counting house might be better than thief, at least.

Beating Mountebanks is the one thing Counting House is actually really good at.  Haven't tried it yet, but I'd be willing to bet it works well with Ill-Gotten Gains, too.
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AJD

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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2011, 11:37:04 pm »
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Beating Mountebanks is the one thing Counting House is actually really good at.  Haven't tried it yet, but I'd be willing to bet it works well with Ill-Gotten Gains, too.

I had a pretty good Counting House / Cache / Haven game the other day.
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popsofctown

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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #20 on: October 27, 2011, 01:52:46 am »
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I don't think explorer is the worst card either I was just trying to make a point.  Explorer has its moments, plenty
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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #21 on: October 27, 2011, 06:47:53 pm »
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I'm not sure if this would be a good idea or not, but I'm tempted to try it some day...

Turn 1: Buy Mandarin
Turn 2: Buy Mandarin
Turn 3: Buy Mandarin
Turn 4: Buy Apprentice

The idea would be to use Apprentice to trash the Mandarins to draw five cards.  As I said, I haven't tried it yet and I'm not sure how well it would work.
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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #22 on: October 27, 2011, 06:51:50 pm »
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I continue to fall flat on my face with Hinterlands.

I was above .500 before HL came along. I am now like 2-11 since it came out.

Mandarin is one reason why, tricky card to play and one of those cards you have to watch when and how you buy.

Hinterlands has a skill level to it, that I simply do not have. I'll keep plugging away, but if Donald X needs proof this is a more advanced set, I'd like to send him my last 13 gaming logs. :)
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Epoch

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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #23 on: October 27, 2011, 07:01:14 pm »
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Mandarin is one reason why, tricky card to play and one of those cards you have to watch when and how you buy.

I have a nice, simple heuristic for how to play Mandarin:

Don't.

There, you're done.  While I'm sure that my nice, simple heuristic is not absolutely perfect, it should take you well above your current level of play.  When you're level 30, you can go back and try to develop a more complicated play-relationship with Mandarin.
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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #24 on: October 27, 2011, 07:16:56 pm »
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Hinterlands has a skill level to it, that I simply do not have. I'll keep plugging away, but if Donald X needs proof this is a more advanced set, I'd like to send him my last 13 gaming logs. :)
Do you have logs for all of your games immediately after cornucopia made it to isotropic?
I'm not convinced that it's "this set's cards are hard" more than "some people are bad at evaluating/using new cards without experience".  After having played through 10 years of Magic set releases, the latter category remains mostly constant, while the former fluctuates considerably.  I don't have enough experience with Dominion releases to really differentiate between the two, and hinterlands does seem to have a few more tricky cards than most, but nothing that makes me think a reasonably skilled player without a lot of experience will lose 85% of his games with it.
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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #25 on: October 27, 2011, 07:35:26 pm »
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Do you have logs for all of your games immediately after cornucopia made it to isotropic?
I'm not convinced that it's "this set's cards are hard" more than "some people are bad at evaluating/using new cards without experience".  After having played through 10 years of Magic set releases, the latter category remains mostly constant, while the former fluctuates considerably.  I don't have enough experience with Dominion releases to really differentiate between the two, and hinterlands does seem to have a few more tricky cards than most, but nothing that makes me think a reasonably skilled player without a lot of experience will lose 85% of his games with it.

I've only played Dominion for a few months, so this is the first expansion to release since I started playing. The thing is, I was getting relatively good at reading the board. I was winning regularly and climbing the ranks. Since HL has come out I've gone from level 18 (or so) to probably level 11 or so after today.

So yeah, you ar right, I do have a hard time reading new cards, for me what makes HL trickier is MANY of the cards are not only judging their talents but also WHEN to buy them and even HOW to buy them. It has an extra-layer to it, that sets like Intrigue and Base Set simply do not have.
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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #26 on: October 27, 2011, 08:26:12 pm »
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I'm not sure if this would be a good idea or not, but I'm tempted to try it some day...

Turn 1: Buy Mandarin
Turn 2: Buy Mandarin
Turn 3: Buy Mandarin
Turn 4: Buy Apprentice

The idea would be to use Apprentice to trash the Mandarins to draw five cards.  As I said, I haven't tried it yet and I'm not sure how well it would work.

Hmm yes, possible the presence of any trash-for-benefit card could be reason enough to get a mass of $5 cards in your deck early. Then any turn you don't draw your trasher you can put back on deck whatever it is you most want trashed.
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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #27 on: October 28, 2011, 04:18:08 am »
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Mandarin is one reason why, tricky card to play and one of those cards you have to watch when and how you buy.

I have a nice, simple heuristic for how to play Mandarin:

Don't.

There, you're done.  While I'm sure that my nice, simple heuristic is not absolutely perfect, it should take you well above your current level of play.  When you're level 30, you can go back and try to develop a more complicated play-relationship with Mandarin.
And if you're there, the more complicated relationship with Mandarin is to look if it's on a board, think about a strategy where it could be usefull and then don't buy it until you're level 40.
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gamesou

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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #28 on: October 28, 2011, 07:29:52 am »
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Maybe Mandarin can synergize with Duke ? Buying 3-4 Mandarins early guarantees you to hit $5 for most of the remaining turns, even if you buy only Duke/Duchies.

I tried this strategy once, I was not really convinced by it, but around this idea one may find a decent use of Mandarin. I guess a 5/2 start is useful, since you may open by multiple Mandarins.

Here is the game : http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111015-144135-cba1ded4.html
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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #29 on: October 28, 2011, 11:33:08 am »
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Mandarin is still puzzling me so I've looked through some Mandarin games in the council room, actually quite a lot of games. The results are carnage and disaster. It was a losing card in most situations and when bought for advantage in a winning deck it was peripheral to the strategy and did not change the game. Perhaps I need to look through some better quality games, hopefully played by people who realise that a highway without extra buys/gains is a poor card.

I did find this gem though. The name has been changed to protect the guilty.

Code: [Select]
--- anonymous's turn 17 ---
anonymous plays a King's Court.
... and plays a King's Court.
... ... and plays a King's Court.
... ... ... and plays a Shanty Town.
... ... ... ... revealing an Estate.
... ... ... ... drawing 2 cards and getting +2 actions.
... ... ... and plays the Shanty Town again.
... ... ... ... revealing a Shanty Town, an Estate, and a Contraband.
... ... ... ... getting +2 actions.
... ... ... and plays the Shanty Town a third time.
... ... ... ... revealing a Shanty Town, an Estate, and a Contraband.
... ... ... ... getting +2 actions.
... ... and plays the King's Court again.
... ... ... and plays a Shanty Town.
... ... ... ... revealing an Estate and a Contraband.
... ... ... ... drawing 2 cards and getting +2 actions.
... ... ... and plays the Shanty Town again.
... ... ... ... revealing a Shanty Town, an Estate, a Contraband, and a Copper.
... ... ... ... getting +2 actions.
... ... ... and plays the Shanty Town a third time.
... ... ... ... revealing a Shanty Town, an Estate, a Contraband, and a Copper.
... ... ... ... getting +2 actions.
... ... and plays the King's Court a third time.
... ... ... and plays a Shanty Town.
... ... ... ... revealing an Estate, a Contraband, and a Copper.
... ... ... ... drawing 2 cards and getting +2 actions.
... ... ... and plays the Shanty Town again.
... ... ... ... revealing a Platinum, a Mandarin, an Estate, a Contraband, and a Copper.
... ... ... ... getting +2 actions.
... ... ... and plays the Shanty Town a third time.
... ... ... ... revealing a Platinum, a Mandarin, an Estate, a Contraband, and a Copper.
... ... ... ... getting +2 actions.
... and plays the King's Court again.
... ... and plays a Mandarin.
... ... ... getting +$3.
... ... ... putting 1 card from hand back on the deck.
... ... and plays the Mandarin again.
... ... ... getting +$3.
... ... ... putting 1 card from hand back on the deck.
... ... and plays the Mandarin a third time.
... ... ... getting +$3.
... ... ... putting 1 card from hand back on the deck.
... and plays the King's Court a third time.
... ... but plays no action with it.
anonymous plays a Contraband.
... Sobri prohibits anonymous from buying Colonies.
anonymous buys a King's Court.
anonymous buys a Shanty Town.
(anonymous draws: a Platinum, 2 Estates, and 2 Coppers.)
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chwhite

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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #30 on: October 28, 2011, 12:07:16 pm »
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I was beaten yesterday by the dreaded Mandarin/Mandarin/Mandarin/Apprentice opening.  It was actually quite strong.

Mandarin is one reason why, tricky card to play and one of those cards you have to watch when and how you buy.

I have a nice, simple heuristic for how to play Mandarin:

Don't.

There, you're done.  While I'm sure that my nice, simple heuristic is not absolutely perfect, it should take you well above your current level of play.  When you're level 30, you can go back and try to develop a more complicated play-relationship with Mandarin.
And if you're there, the more complicated relationship with Mandarin is to look if it's on a board, think about a strategy where it could be usefull and then don't buy it until you're level 40.

This is sort of my relationship with Develop, though in that case I suspect it's prudent to wait until level 50. :P
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mnavratil

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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #31 on: October 28, 2011, 12:14:39 pm »
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This is the only game I could find where I used Mandarin to any effect:
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111020-161844-1005f550.html

I used Mandarin to top-deck a province on turns 10 and 13 to get drawn with a tournament the next hand (I guess this has the added effect of blocking opposing tournaments for an extra turn). Also, the early $3 helps here to get the first province.

If I would have opened 4/3; however, I don't know if  I would have picked Mandarin up along the way.

So Mandarin/Tournament seems okay.
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Empathy

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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #32 on: October 28, 2011, 12:32:50 pm »
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Perhaps I need to look through some better quality games, hopefully played by people who realise that a highway without extra buys/gains is a poor card.

Don't forget saboteur!

I have won a few games now by getting highways without impressive buy/gain cards (or none altogether), just splashing a saboteur to play after a quadruple highway. It is definitely game changing.

Chapel/highway/saboteur in particular can be scary if the other player completely ignores the highway.

Sorry if this is a bit off-topic xD.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2011, 01:07:46 pm by Empathy »
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popsofctown

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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #33 on: October 28, 2011, 01:34:36 pm »
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I wouldn't expect Mandarin to work well with Duke.  Hitting 5 consistently isn't hard, you need neither Mandarin's on-buy effect nor its on play effect to accomplish that.  If you want to pay five for something that makes sure you hit Dukes and Duchys buy a Vault or a Contraband or a Cache or a Jester or a Wharf or a ...

You use it for Province spiking, and you only use it in notrash games.  Seriously.
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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #34 on: October 28, 2011, 05:31:42 pm »
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I have yet to play with the Hinterlands cards (I promised my wife), but it seems to me that Mandarin's ability to put any card back on your deck could be useful in carrying a Reaction card across many consecutive hands.

For instance, if you were to open 2/5, you could buy Moat/Mandarin. If they appear in the same hand, play the Mandarin and put the Moat in your next hand. If Moat appears alone, play it. In an attack-heavy game, Moat's protection is more useful than its +2 Cards. However, this plan does have the disadvantage of not giving access to use Moat's Reaction ability until at least turn 4.

This would be more useful in a 3- or 4-player game where Reactions are more practical, of course. It could also work with Secret Chamber/Watchtower/Horse Traders/Trader/Tunnel. It could be nice occasionally with Fool's Gold, but probably not worth shooting for intentionally.

I'm not sure it's a viable strategy in reality, but it sounds good initially on paper.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2011, 05:53:34 pm by LastFootnote »
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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #35 on: October 28, 2011, 06:29:51 pm »
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I find that, say, in big-money decks, Mandarin is helpful in getting me a gold before the second reshuffle. Say I've got silver-copper-copper-copper estate, AND there isn't a power 5 I want, I want gold, then I buy mandarin and have a good chance of hitting gold on the next turn. So it's sorta nice for weak big money-ish with a few non-draw terminals sprinkled in, a deck where treasures are your bread-and-butter. Which, hey I specialize in. But mostly the buy effect is its strength.

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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #36 on: October 28, 2011, 06:48:30 pm »
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But mostly the buy effect is its strength.
Quoted for truth. Mandarin without the on-gain effect would be a $2-3 card. You have to abuse the on-gain mechanic and/or have no better ways to spend $5.
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DG

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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #37 on: October 28, 2011, 07:38:40 pm »
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Quote
For instance, if you were to open 2/5, you could buy Moat/Mandarin. If they appear in the same hand, play the Mandarin and put the Moat in your next hand. If Moat appears alone, play it.
Indeed I did look for this and believe it to be possible. However I specifically looked for it in some of the council room logs and I found nobody who pulled it off. I suspect that buying an attack card is just a better use of 5 coins than buying the mandarin for improved defence. Perhaps the balance shifts in a 4 player game where defences become more important.
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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #38 on: October 28, 2011, 07:44:37 pm »
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But mostly the buy effect is its strength.
Quoted for truth. Mandarin without the on-gain effect would be a $2-3 card. You have to abuse the on-gain mechanic and/or have no better ways to spend $5.
If it cost 2, it might be the 2nd strongest 2 (after chapel). It would be a pretty strong 3, though a very mild 4. Probably a touch worse than cutpurse - much worse as an opener, significantly better as the game went on.

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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #39 on: October 29, 2011, 03:11:11 am »
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^Thinking about it, I guess it might be $4, since a mandarin/mandarin opening might be a bit on the strong side. But I guess my point was that beyond that, it's pretty unimpressive, usually no better than silver or courtyard.
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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #40 on: October 29, 2011, 09:31:45 pm »
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I was beaten yesterday by the dreaded Mandarin/Mandarin/Mandarin/Apprentice opening.  It was actually quite strong.

Cool!  Let me throw out another one, then...

Turn 1: 5 Copper, buy a Mandarin, put 5 Copper back on top of your draw pile
Turn 2: Buy an Inn, put the Inn and the Mandarin back in your draw pile and shuffle it
Turn 3: Play Inn, draw 2 cards, discard 2 Estates, play Mandarin, put the other Estate on your draw pile, play two Coppers, buy a Torturer

That gives you three cost-5 cards before your first shuffle.  Inn would combo well with Torturer because it draws two cards, making it more likely you'll pick up a Torturer.  Mandarin is useful in that set because if you draw it with a Torturer but not an Inn, you can put the Torturer on top of your deck, so it's easier to get a chain going.  If you played a Torturer chain but didn't reshuffle, it's a good time to buy an Inn.

I think we're going to find many ideas like this with the Hinterlands cards.  The "when you gain" dynamic is very interesting.
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Wingnut

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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #41 on: November 03, 2011, 04:07:57 am »
+1

A late game haggler/mandarin combo is quite nice. Haggler allows you to gain mandarin after buying a province, putting the treasures back on your deck and allowing another province buy with the same treasure.

In this game, I used it to buy the final province.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201111/03/game-20111103-010419-638a80af.html
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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #42 on: November 03, 2011, 06:50:56 am »
+1

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111101-092759-750c191c.html

Mandarin / Hunting Party / Nothing seems quite strong.
Only tried it once but worked quite well.
You get to put the last HP back on top once you have enough in hand for this turns buy.
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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #43 on: November 03, 2011, 07:52:26 am »
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I ended up finding or inventing about a dozen different situations where you could get advantage from a mandarin but nothing that stood out as a fantastic game winner. So perhaps that will be the nature of the card. It's +3 coins so if you can turns its disadvantages into advantages, even minor ones, then it's a good card.
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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #44 on: November 03, 2011, 08:18:13 am »
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It might be really good in "I draw my whole deck and have more KC than I need"-type of deck, as KC-Mandarin gives $9 AND let you design your next turn. If that can be something like KC-KC-Smithy, or KC-Lab-X, it prevents the KC-spree from stopping.
But of course there is tough competition under these circumstences, nevertheless I have the feeling that this might be one of the situations where I might buy a Mandarin before getting to level 40...
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popsofctown

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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #45 on: November 03, 2011, 06:59:20 pm »
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Come on.  You guys had to be kidding about not buying it at all before level 40.

It could say "+0$, gain a curse", and there would still be times where the buy effect is worthwhile.  If you're tied with one province left and draw nothing except two golds and buy a duchy then I don't know what to tell you.
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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #46 on: November 04, 2011, 01:50:38 am »
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Come on.  You guys had to be kidding about not buying it at all before level 40.

Of course we're kind of  kidding, but look where it came from.  We were talking about heuristics, ChaosRed was looking for a way on how to include Mandarin in the deck, and then, unless you have more serious problems than getting the last few percent out of your deck, just ignore it and think about the rest of the kingdom. You will most likely find more there than in Mandarin.
That was level 30.
And now I just wanted to stress that also at this level, ignoring Mandarin will not really harm you much. Of course you should begin to not have many more serious problems, at least not many that are much more easier to handle than Mandarin. But it's still a difficult card, that can have drawbacks for you both on buy and on play. It can also have advantages, but usually they are not so huge that not buying Mandarin will kill you.

It might be fun to get some value out of Mandarin, but if you don't, this will not be the card that prevents you from getting to 40...
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popsofctown

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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #47 on: November 04, 2011, 03:17:11 am »
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Yeah, it's not going to kill your winrate to ignore the card.  But I don't think it's that difficult to use the buy effect by itself during province phase.
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mathguy

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Re: Mandarin
« Reply #48 on: November 05, 2011, 10:47:38 am »
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Late game: Platinum, Platinum, Platinum, Festival (or any +$,+buy), X

Buy colony+Mandarin and push your Platinums forward. This seems like it has potential if your deck has lots of festivals. It also seems very slow/hard to set up.
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