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Qvist

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The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $6+ cards
« on: July 01, 2013, 04:03:53 pm »
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#16 Adventurer (Base) Weighted Average: 2.0% ▲0.9pp / Median: 0% =0pp / Standard Deviation: 5.7% ▲2.4pp
Highest Value(s): 26.7% (1x), 20.0% (1x), 15.4% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 0% (44x)

Again it was pretty clear, Adventurer is still the worst card in this list. It was voted last 44 times, that's 80% of all votes. It has also the second lowest deviation in this list.

By all means Adventurer is no bad card. But all $6+ cards have the problem competing with Gold. And Adventurer is only superior to Gold in decks without Copper and even $5 cards like Harvest or Merchant Ship (can) give you $4 easily. The filter effect is nice and finds still 2 treasure cards if you are already heavily greening what is especially good with Platinum. But the same does Venture (you see the name sililarity?) without spending an action and for one coin less. So, most of the time, Adventurer is just overpriced, but can be nice in a chapelled deck with no better alternatives.
#15 Farmland (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 14.4% ▼4.2pp / Median: 7.7% ▼7.7pp / Standard Deviation: 15.1% ▼0.5pp
Highest Value(s): 86.7% (1x), 53.3% (1x), 40.0% (4x) / Lowest Value(s): 0% (4x)

Farmland is still second last. It was voted last 4 times and has only 2 votes above average. It lost quite a bit in points this time.

Farmland is definitely no power card, but still should be considered as a good buy in a handful of situations. At first it seems weak as it is more expensive and gives less VP than a Duchy. But the on-buy remodel effect can be very handy. You really have to calculate the benefits. If you have $7, you can remodel a Copper into an Estate, but then it would be better to buy a Duchy for the same VP. For $8 you could buy a Province directly, but if you're behind and there are only few Provinces left, just remodel a Silver into a Duchy for 5VP. For $9 Farmland is like an extra buy, if you remodel a Gold into a Province for 8VP total. In the middle game you even may prefer Farmland over Duchy, because with a Farmland in hand you only need $6 and a Farmland in hand to get a Province. Then Farmland is like a pseudo Harem as the remodel effect is like the +2$ Harem gives you. Especially nice is Farmland in cursing games. For $6 and a Curse in hand, Farmland is worth 4VP. There are even more nice situations like getting 2 victory cards in Silk Road games or trashing a Potion to get a Gold.
#14 Harem (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 28.9% ▼2.5pp / Median: 26.7% ▼4.1pp / Standard Deviation: 18.3% ▲1.0pp
Highest Value(s): 73.3% (1x), 66.7% (2x) / Lowest Value(s): 6.7% (6x)

Ignoring the new Dark Ages cards, Harem is also on the same rank as before. It has no last rank, but 6 second last ranks. It was voted 9 times above average.

Like all cards in this list, Harem is by far no bad card, but it's another card that's not really game dominating. Especially in Big Money games where you rarely need more than 1-2 Golds you can pick easily pick up Harems in the mid-game if you still fall short for Provinces. This gives you -1VP in comparism to Duchies, but you will see this Harem still 2-3 times to make it worth a buy and give you enough money to win the Provinces split or make the 2VP difference to win this game. Harem is also good in Silk Road games and in combination with Hoard (don't buy Gold, just buy a Hoard and Harems), Mine (mine early Silvers into Harems) and Mints (extra money and VP is nice). In Colony games, Harem is really ignorable because neither Silver nor 2VP are worth a buy.
#13 Expand (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 34.2% ▲1.8pp / Median: 26.7% ▼11.8pp / Standard Deviation: 17.8% ▲1.1pp
Highest Value(s): 80.0% (2x), 61.5% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 6.7% (3x)

Expand is on the same rank as last time too. It has 3 votes on second last and 13 votes above average. Although the rating went up, the Median is much worse than last time.

Expand is a mix between Remodel and Mine, but is another card that has the drawback of being expensive. So if you want to trash treasure cards in the late game for victory cards, Remodel manages that too for $3 less. If you want trash treasure cards for better treasure cards, Mine does it even better for $2 less. Its best use is to trash victory cards for better ones or $5 cost actions to victory cards in the end game. This is especially nice in Colony games. With 2 Expands you can start greening earlier and even buy Provinces to expand them later into Colonies for a benefit of 4VP. And if you have a good drawing engine this works even better. You only need one copy to expand a card into a (better) victory card each turn. And expanding Peddlers into Colonies may be its strongest combo.
#12 Forge (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 34.3% ▲1.1pp / Median: 26.7% ▼4.1pp / Standard Deviation: 24.5% ▼1.8pp
Highest Value(s): 93.3% (2x), 80.0% (2x) / Lowest Value(s): 6.7% (4x), 0% (2x)

Forge was better than Expand by only 0.1pp this time. It is the card with the highest deviation in this list again. On one side it has two last ranks, but on the other it was voted second twice. It has 14 above average votes.

Forge is really hard to evaluate because it heavily depends from the cards on the board. Forge is like a much better Chapel because you can quickly trash many cards out of your deck and get an additional benefit, but has 3 big drawbacks. 1.) It's too expensive. If you get to $7 you mostly can't heavily trash anymore because you have too many cards in hand you want to keep. But with cards on the board that can give you $7 early like Baron, Apothecary or Tactician, Forge is really strong. 2.) Forge needs big hand sizes to be really worth it (comparing to other trash-for-benefit cards). Cards like Apothecary or Tactician accomplish this too, but if you have good draw engines, a Forge may also worth a buy to trash a few cards for a late Province. But with discarding attacks Forge is weak. 3.) The term "exactly" and the obligatory gain makes Forge swingy. With a Forge in hand heavy calculating goes on. If you just want to get rid of cards like Coppers or Estates you often have to gain at least a Copper or an Estate or another card you basically don't want. Only if you manage to reach $10 where no card exists you get rid of those. And if you want to forge a Province you often draw the wrong cards (e.g. only treasure cards). Summary: You have to really consider if Forge is a trap or worth a buy, like in Torturer engines where you can simply take all Curses in hand to forge them right away.
#11 Fairgrounds (Cornucopia) Weighted Average: 37.7% ▲0.8pp / Median: 33.3% ▲2.5pp / Standard Deviation: 23.2% ▼3.2pp
Highest Value(s): 86.7% (1x), 80.0% (2x) / Lowest Value(s): 6.7% (4x), 0% (2x)

Fairgrounds is the next card which stays where it was. It has the second highest deviation in this list. It was voted 15 times above average, but still 2 times last.

Copper, Silver, Gold, Estate, Duchy, Province and Fairgrounds and you have already 7 different cards. With 3 more cards, every Fairgrounds is already worth more than a Duchy. Especially in cursing and Potion games, this is easy to accomplish. This is still making it a mediocre card. But in games where you have many cantrips and a good source of buy, Fairgrounds can be really strong. Just buy 15 of the 19 different cards and every Fairgrounds is worth 6VP like a Province and this for $2 less. And with Black Market on the board it is even easier to get 15 or even 20 different cards and may be the board determining combo. With Dark Ages Fairgrounds got a huge boost. With Shelters you need 2 unique cards less and in games with Looters you might have to ignore them because the Ruins might only pump your opponents' Fairgrounds. Also, Knights offer a lot of uniques and Spoils or Mercenary from extra piles are also extra uniques you might want.
#10 Bank (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 44.3% ▲1.1pp / Median: 46.7% ▲8.2pp / Standard Deviation: 18.2% ▲0.6pp
Highest Value(s): 84.6% (1x), 73.3% (2x) / Lowest Value(s): 13.3% (4x), 0% (1x)

And Bank also stays where it was. Its median is much higher this time. It has one last rank and one high outlier.

Bank's value really depends from the board. Bank is dependant from big hand sizes and +Buy. On an average board, especially Big Money games, Bank is mostly worse than Gold. While 3 Golds allow you to buy a Province, 3 Banks don't. So it can really be a trap card. But with a drawer it can be also better than Gold (e.g. 4 Copper + Bank instead of 4 Copper + Gold). And with the addition of +Buy it can get incredibly powerful. Margrave/Wharf Big Money with Bank is great. And in combination with Tactician or Apothecary+Herbalist(or another +Buy) Bank is really powerful. In Colony games Platinum is still stronger in almost every situation, but still Bank is no bad card in Colony games and just depends of above mentioned scenarios.
#9 Hoard (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 48.5% ▼7.3pp / Median: 53.3% ▼0.5pp / Standard Deviation: 20.8% ▼3.5pp
Highest Value(s): 100% (1x), 80.0% (2x) / Lowest Value(s): 13.3% (2x), 6.7% (1x)

And here is the first change. Hoard is the biggest loser in this list. Over 7pp worse and one rank worse than last time. It also lost a lot of agreement. It was even voted first once, but also second last once. In the unweighted ranking it would be one rank higher.

Hoard is really good if you play it right. If you use it to buy a Victory card every time you have it in hand, just to get a Gold, this is maybe not the right play because then your money average approximates to ~1.5$ what isn't enough for a Province and is even worse in Colony games. But you want to green eventually, right? Then adding Golds while greening is really good. Your deck doesn't clog up too much and you may keep buying Provinces or at least Duchies until the end of the game. So if you pick up a Hoard after your first Gold in Big Money games you can go green pretty early. Hoard is also good if you use the free Gold for trash-for-benefit cards, especially Apprentice. Just trash a Gold with Apprentice, buy a Province with a Hoard in hand to get another Gold and do the same in the next turns over and over. Hoard works also nice with dual-type victory cards especially Harem.
#8 Hunting Grounds (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 49.4% / Median: 46.7% /  Standard Deviation: 19.5%
Highest Value(s): 86.7% (1x), 80.0% (4x) / Lowest Value(s): 20.0% (2x), 6.7% (1x)

Ranked right in the middle is the first of two new Dark Ages cards. It's also not only ranked in the middle, it has also a nearly exact 50% rating. It would be one rank higher in the unweighted ranking.

Hunting Grounds is the best drawer without any disadvantage or condition of the game. It's simple, but does well what it should do, drawing a lot of cards. It's solid in Big Money but for $6 it competes directly with Gold and mostly you draw way more than you need for a Province and as you only have one buy, I rather have Wharf for Big Money strategies. But in engines, drawing 4 cards is great and even with weak trashing you can build a pretty decent engine with it. And with good trashing this is even better as you will easily draw your whole deck with it. The on-trash ability is also neat. I think I've never took 3 Estates over a Duchy because in those cases where it would matter (like Gardens or Silk Road) $6 is often way too expensive. But getting a late extra Duchy when you try to catch up with your mega engine is pretty cool. Tricks like buying a Farmland to trash a Hunting Grounds for a Province and a Duchy for 11VP total or just use any trash-for-benefit card on it is a great extra.
#7 Nobles (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 50.2% ▲1.2pp / Median: 46.7% ▼7.1pp / Standard Deviation: 18.6% ▲2.4pp
Highest Value(s): 86.7% (2x), 80.0% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 20.0% (3x), 6.7% (1x)

Nobles is one rank better and has more agreement this time. It would be two ranks lower in the unweighted list.

Nobles is often a trap card. Yes, Nobles is a self working combo when you use it for +2 Actions and +3 Cards alternating. But 2 Nobles still give you only a +1 Card Bonus what one Laboratory gives you too. So a Big Money player is going to outrace a "Nobles-Engine" player, it's just to slow. But still there are many occassions where Nobles are nice. As long as you don't use Nobles as your main village an engine player can incorporate Nobles as a good drawer while picking up some points and not fall so far behind to a Big Money Player. Yeah, getting points while still building your engine can be huge for an engine player as he may need 1-2 Provinces less to catch up in the end. And if there are other cards that let you get Nobles faster, like Quarry it makes them even stronger. However, in Colony games the 2VP from Nobles are often ignorable or at least less important.
#6 Altar (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 54.5% / Median: 60.0% /  Standard Deviation: 23.0%
Highest Value(s): 86.7% (2x), 80.0% (5x) / Lowest Value(s): 13.3% (1x), 0% (2x)

Altar is the better ranked Dark Ages card. But it has a pretty high deviation with two votes on the last rank.

$5 cards are key cards in Dominion. And the ability to trash cards independant from cost and turn them into key $5 cards is really big, especially for any sort of engine. An early $6 on an engine board with Altar is really strong. Also, you have the ability to use it later in the game to gain Duchies, something you shouldn't underestimate. It also comboes well with cost reduction like Highway (which you can get from Altar) to even gain Provinces with it. Of course it highly depends on the board. If there are no good expensive cards to get in masses, then Altar isn't that interesting, but you might get one only for the Duchy gain ability which is also less useful in Colony games of course.
#5 Peddler (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 58.7% ▼1.2pp / Median: 60.0% ▼1.5pp / Standard Deviation: 16.1% ▲2.9pp
Highest Value(s): 84.6% (2x), 80.0% (2x) / Lowest Value(s): 26.7% (1x), 23.1% (1x), 20.0% (2x)

Peddler is on the same rank as before with much more agreement and a slighly worse ranking.

Peddler basically doesn't belong in this list similarly to Duchess, because you almost never spend $8 for a Peddler as its effect is only worth ~$4. So if you spend $6 or $8 for a Peddler, this was mostly a waste. But in games with many +Buys like Grand Markets, Worker's Villages, Market Squares or Pawns and Hamlets, you can easily pick up Peddlers for $0 or $2. Getting many Peddlers in one turn can be a pretty big boost to your econony. Peddlers are also good in combination with duration cards as they count for price reduction in both turns. But it is in this list and it is so high in this list because it really shines in combination with trash-for-benefit cards and then its cost shows to advantage, e.g. - like above mentioned - expanding it into a Colony. As it is the only card for $8, its also worth mentioning how it works with Swindler. As long as there are still Peddlers left, there is the danger that it get swindled. But when the Peddlers are gone, you have a great defense against Swindler. Another quick note: Beware of three-piling in Peddler games with +Buy.
#4 Border Village (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 67.9% ▲0.3pp / Median: 73.3% ▲4.1pp / Standard Deviation: 17.4% ▼0.4pp
Highest Value(s): 86.7% (3x) / Lowest Value(s): 26.7% (1x), 20.0% (1x), 7.7% (1x)

We're making a jump of over 9pp and Border Village is still on #4, but has a pretty low percentage value for a card ranked on #4 which shows the strength of the upcoming Top 3. It has still some pretty low votes, but 17 votes on 80% shows that there's no doubt about its high rank.

For every good engine Border Village is excellent. Especially if you have $6 and there are strong terminal $5 cards on the board and you want the $5 card anyway, you get a Village for free. Do this a few times and you basically are guaranteed to have a Village in each hand. The uses are similar to when you want many Fishing Villages. Border Village + Torturer is maybe of the strongest comboes. Still this is in strong competition with Gold. It's really a trap in cases where you want a money based strategy. Especially with the first $6 you often rather buy a Gold than a Border Village in most cases. Border Village is also very good on boards with trash-for-benefit cards because for every $6 you have you can buy a Border Village and the trash-for-benefit card. Later you can trash the Border Village for 4VP with Bishop, 6 cards with Apprentice, 6$ with Salvager or remodel it into a Province, etc. Border Village + Graverobber is also a great combo because you never run out of fodder for Graverobbers.
#3 Grand Market (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 84.7% ▲4.7pp / Median: 86.7% ▲2.1pp / Standard Deviation: 9.0% ▲4.2pp
Highest Value(s): 100% (3x) / Lowest Value(s): 60.0% (2x), 53.3% (1x)

Now is the big jump: Over 16pp better than Border Village is Grand Market. After the big drop last time, it gained back a little bit of points. It's nearly 5pp better with no votes in the lower half and three first ranks. But still the gap to the top two is really big.

Grand Market is basically a $8-$9 card and is the dominating card on many boards. Often it's basically a race to get the first Grand Market faster. And with the first Grand Market you can easily buy more of them. You achieve that at best with Vault or any other Source of virtual coins like Baron or Horse Traders and of course with Gold. Grand Markets are very powerful, but still there are situations where it's just too slow to pick them up because of its restriction and is really a trap card. Other strategies are just quicker. They are great in nearly all decks, but Grand Markets really shine in thin decks where you can chain them. Then they are even better than Platinum! The same applies in combination with King's Court. But in Colony games with heavy cursing or other thick decks, Platinum is still the stronger card.
#2 Goons (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 93.6% ▼1.0pp / Median: 93.3% ▲1.0pp / Standard Deviation: 5.8% ▲6.3pp
Highest Value(s): 100% (14x) / Lowest Value(s): 80.0% (3x), 76.9% (1x)

Another jump of nearly 9pp and we're now in the Top 2. Goons is second again and has won a lot of consensus with its really low deviation, but it's still only the third lowest in this list. It was voted 14 times first and all voted it in the top quarter of this list.

Goons is a strong and board dominating card nearly every time. Yes, it gets quadratically (n^2+n) better the more Goons you can play per turn, so it gets big profit from good drawing engines, but is still great if played alone because of the discarding attack. It's also the only attack card that is so strong that it needs to cost more than $5. So you have a Militia that nets you VP for cards you would have bought either way, great! In the later game you can pick additional VP for Coppers (and with a Watchtower in hand you can even immediately trash them). And if you have that needed actions and set up a really nice engine with Goons and manage to play 3 or more Goons per turn, it is so insane powerful: You can achieve easily 100 or more points. Also a Goons engine has more time for setup as you don't necessarily need to buy Provinces/Colonies. For clarification: King's Court + Goons doesn't triple the VP gaining effect, but you still get the extra money and buys you can use for more VP, so it isn't a so bad combo after all (especially if you have another King's Court and a Masquerade in hand ;) )
#1 King's Court (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 97.5% ▲1.2pp / Median: 100% =0pp / Standard Deviation: 4.5% ▲0.8pp
Highest Value(s): 100% (37x) / Lowest Value(s): 86.7% (1x), 84.6% (1x), 80.0% (1x)

Yeah, no doubt about it. King's Court is the best card in this list again. 37 voted it first and basically no really bad vote; so it has clearly the lowest deviation in this list.

Just like Goons and Grand Market, when King's Court is on the board, there's nearly every time a race who gets it first with cards like Tactician, Baron or Apothecary. Throne Room does nothing for itself and just doubles the action, but still is often skippable - tripling an action seems like no big difference, but it is a huge boost. If you triple a Curser the game is basically over; if you triple a card drawer like Wharf it's really crazy; and with Possession or Saboteur it could get really mad. With King's Court you also need no Village, just triple a Cantrip for a huge benefit, especially if it's Scheme. And with King's Courting a King's Court it gets even crazier... Maybe only on Province boards that are already very quick without King's Court or have only terminal non-curse-givers you may skip it. PS: For everyone who has the same problems as I, calculating the actions you may play three times: For every King's Court you play on a King's Court you can play 2 more actions three times - or if you prefer a formula: 2n-1

D Bo

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2013, 04:12:01 pm »
0

Can't really disagree much with this list. I had Peddler a lot lower and Forge a lot higher, but honestly my opinion has changed on these cards since we initially made these lists. A little surprised to see that someone had Hoard as #1...I mean it's a cool card but...
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heron

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2013, 04:17:26 pm »
0

Why is Fairgrounds so low? And Hoard? I think both of these should be ahead of Nobles.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2013, 04:17:36 pm »
0

I think Goons should be #1.  I also think that Nobles should be above Altar, I think you should probably just switch them.

Harem is underrated.  I'd put it above Expand, possibly above Forge too.  It's actually quite good in money decks.

And I might swap BV and GM, BV is just so useful so often, and GM is frequently a trap, powerful though it may be.
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jonts26

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2013, 04:22:08 pm »
+3

The biggest miss for me has to be Fairgrounds. That's like, a really really good card. It just adds so many points to the kingdom. Engines have a ton more time to get going.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2013, 04:23:49 pm »
+2

I agree with goons being #1. I think I was convinced of this during the last "$6+ cards" list.

KC supercharges all engine games, and often makes engines viable when they wouldn't be otherwise. But goons does that too! And goons is viable even in BM, without engine support.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2013, 04:25:51 pm »
0

Hunting Grounds is too high, Fairgrounds too low.  $6 cards are boring to discuss, though...
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2013, 04:26:56 pm »
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I think I agree with this list completely.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2013, 05:00:05 pm »
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Regarding King's Court and keeping track of how many more cards can be played.  I usually lay out my action cards in trees, so at each King's Court after the first,  three branches come out.
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Tables

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2013, 05:01:47 pm »
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I think Hoard is perhaps a little too high (I had it unreasonably low in my list, mind, I don't even know...). Drop Hoard below Forge, I think I'd be much happier. Maybe move Nobles down a little... Nobles is better than Harem, but I don't think it's that much better. Nobles in Engines is okay, but is too expensive mostly to build an engine around. And maybe move Harem above Expand, but that's one place so eh.

Oh, and I had Goons > King's Court, but both are really awesome, so not complaining. I remember umming and ahhing about those two for a while.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2013, 05:16:25 pm »
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Didn't like, everyone revise their opinion in the previous list that Goons >KC?

And yeah, Fairgrounds is a huge miss. Especially after Dark Ages was released.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2013, 05:17:40 pm »
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Didn't like, everyone revise their opinion in the previous list that Goons >KC?

I did. But I didn't vote. I've let you all down. I'm so sorry.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2013, 05:24:51 pm »
+1

Nobles is too high.  It's just... not that good.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2013, 05:42:18 pm »
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I'd put Nobles below Fairgrounds, Hunting grounds, Hoard, Bank, Forge. At least.
I just don't understand why Hunting grounds and Fairgrounds are so low.
Farmland should be higher too...
And peddler is not that good.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2013, 05:47:53 pm »
+2

This list is perfect. Great job, community!
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dondon151

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2013, 05:50:19 pm »
0

Nobles is a great engine card!
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2013, 06:13:43 pm »
0

Nobles is a great engine card!
I think so, but compare it with Hunting grounds... 4 cards is huge, simply much better than 3 cards. The +2 actions of Nobles is not very useful, because you need two nobles in hand to make good use of it. Nobles are great for 2VP, but Hunting grounds can also turn into 3VP. So. Why Nobles is higher than Hunting grounds ?
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LastFootnote

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2013, 06:16:35 pm »
+1

I feel like Farmland's blurb only really scratches the surface of what Farmland is for. It can be used in the endgame for a small VP boost, sure. Mainly it's a Hinterlands combo card, though. It's like the Rats of Hinterlands.

EDIT: Not that it necessarily belongs much higher on this list, mind you. I'd probably put it above Harem, Expand, and Forge, though.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 06:20:50 pm by LastFootnote »
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brokoli

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2013, 06:29:01 pm »
0

This list reminds me how $6+ cards are fun. Disappointing there is no cards of this cost in Guilds. There is the overpay cards though.
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SirPeebles

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #19 on: July 01, 2013, 06:44:28 pm »
0

I feel like Farmland's blurb only really scratches the surface of what Farmland is for. It can be used in the endgame for a small VP boost, sure. Mainly it's a Hinterlands combo card, though. It's like the Rats of Hinterlands.

EDIT: Not that it necessarily belongs much higher on this list, mind you. I'd probably put it above Harem, Expand, and Forge, though.

Which cards do you feel it combos well with from Hinterlands?  Silk Road for sure.  Border Village too.
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dondon151

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #20 on: July 01, 2013, 07:55:15 pm »
0

I think so, but compare it with Hunting grounds... 4 cards is huge, simply much better than 3 cards. The +2 actions of Nobles is not very useful, because you need two nobles in hand to make good use of it. Nobles are great for 2VP, but Hunting grounds can also turn into 3VP. So. Why Nobles is higher than Hunting grounds ?

4 cards vs. 3 cards is a notably big difference, but in both cases you're going to need a +action in hand to play it first anyway. In most decks where an engine is viable, you'll get a good turn rolling with +3 cards just as well as with +4 cards.

+2 actions on Nobles is not very useful? That's not true at all! Yes, Nobles is pretty bad when you use it as your sole source of +action (though such decks are viable in a subset of kingdoms). More importantly, it's insurance against a bad draw.

Nobles doesn't need to be trashed for the VP. HG does. You need a card to trash HG, and trashing it often means that you don't get the on-play benefit, either.

I think that comparing Nobles to HG is a bit lazy. They are only separated by 1 rank... It really could go either way. Showing that HG > Nobles doesn't strongly suggest that Nobles is too highly ranked.
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Powerman

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #21 on: July 01, 2013, 08:04:39 pm »
0

I think so, but compare it with Hunting grounds... 4 cards is huge, simply much better than 3 cards. The +2 actions of Nobles is not very useful, because you need two nobles in hand to make good use of it. Nobles are great for 2VP, but Hunting grounds can also turn into 3VP. So. Why Nobles is higher than Hunting grounds ?

4 cards vs. 3 cards is a notably big difference, but in both cases you're going to need a +action in hand to play it first anyway. In most decks where an engine is viable, you'll get a good turn rolling with +3 cards just as well as with +4 cards.

+2 actions on Nobles is not very useful? That's not true at all! Yes, Nobles is pretty bad when you use it as your sole source of +action (though such decks are viable in a subset of kingdoms). More importantly, it's insurance against a bad draw.

Nobles doesn't need to be trashed for the VP. HG does. You need a card to trash HG, and trashing it often means that you don't get the on-play benefit, either.

I think that comparing Nobles to HG is a bit lazy. They are only separated by 1 rank... It really could go either way. Showing that HG > Nobles doesn't strongly suggest that Nobles is too highly ranked.

I'd say definitely (at least) Hoard and Fairgrounds are also better than Nobles.  Probably Bank too, maybe Forge.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #22 on: July 01, 2013, 09:57:20 pm »
0

Expand does pale in comparison to most other Remodel variants as almost all of its individual functions (with a few exceptions like $5 Treasure->Province) are done as well or better on cheaper cards. I see it as a Band of Misfits or "Jack of All Trades" (not to be confused with the card of the same name) type card.

The best thing expand can do on its is Estate->Power $5->Province. Altar is better at the first half, and Graverobber is better at the 2nd half, but one card being able to do both makes it worth the $7.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 10:02:07 pm by NoMoreFun »
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Powerman

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #23 on: July 01, 2013, 10:09:13 pm »
0

Altar and Expand is an interesting comparison.  Altar is only better than Expand if you can go 0 --> 4 or 0 --> 5, either normal pricing or with price reduction.  Expand is greater than or equal to Altar if you are trashing a card costing greater than or equal to 2.

Now, how much of a difference does the cost of 6 and 7 make?  Well, both of these cards want to be gotten early, and for the first reshuffle, it is much easier to hit $6 than $7.

I think that difference in ease is more important than the difference in power.  But, perhaps Altar should be a rank or two lower.
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ftl

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: $6+ cards
« Reply #24 on: July 01, 2013, 10:12:11 pm »
+4

Every deck starts with seven cards with a cost of 0 that you want to trash that are in that range - the starting coppers. That makes a big difference in Altar's favor.
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