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Author Topic: Dominion - Leitmotif (Updated - 07/01/13)  (Read 9174 times)

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Eistee

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Dominion - Leitmotif (Updated - 07/01/13)
« on: June 30, 2013, 05:04:29 pm »
+5

A new trend is on the rise in the Kingdom - Science!! And Pihosophy. And Astrology. And Wizardry. And Cultism. Wait, what?

I present to you the first 9 cards for the Dominion expansion I am currently working on: Dominion - Leitmotif. It features cards that do more if certain conditions are met. "If", you know.

Constructive critisism is very welcome. Now, on to the cards! The layout of some of the cards might not be perfect, but I'm trying to get better.

Transciprions of the cards below each card.

(//Disclaimer: Art is from various sites and some Trading Cards. This is only for fun and in no way for commercial use, so I don't think this will be much of a problem.)



Quote
Action - 2

+1 Card
Trash a card from your hand. It it was...
an Action card: +2 Actions, +1 Buy
a Treasure card: +  1
a Victory card: +1 Card
---
When you play an Attack card with this in play, you
may trash this. If you do, choose one: Gain a Gold;
or each other player gains a Curse.

Mad Scientist gives different bonuses depending on which card you want to offer him. The "+Buy" is tacked on so that you can trash a Mad Scientist and buy a new one. The top actually is kinda simple. Masquerade still is a better trasher, I think. What is your opinion on this?

Now, the bottom of the first version was too strong, too random an too political. The new one kinda does the same, but is more fair at that, I think. The Gold-gaining is not necessary, but felt nice to be included. Mad Scientist is only non-terminal when another Action is trashed, so chaining an attack can be difficult. I think the bonus is a good payoff for something more difficult than it looks like at first.




Quote
Action - (3)

+1 Action
Reveal the top three cards of your deck.
If you reveal at least one Victory
card this way: Put all the revealed cards
into your hand. Otherwise: Discard all
the revealed cards.

This kinda compares to Scout, but it looks at one card less. Even at 4, it wouldn't be strictly better. With Scout you can always rearrange your deck. When this misses, you just got no benefit. However, you can at least play another one which might hit a Victory card. And if it does, it's better than a Laboratory. Advisor might be a comparison, but Advisor always gets you cards while this doesn't.

It hasn't been changed since Version 1. It looks like a pretty fair and balanced card to me.

I think (3) is the best price for this. Opinions?




Quote
Action - (4)

Trash a card from your Hand.
If you do, choose one:
Gain an Action card costing exactly (1)
more than it, putting it on top of your
deck; or gain a Silver.

That one day, I was sitting at work, when suddenly I decided to make an upgrade that could only produce Actions, but give those directly into your hand. It seemed cool, but as some of you have pointed out, it really is a tad too strong, especially when it can gain Silvers as well.

This new version tackles the problems of the first version by not giving +1 Action and topdecking the Action. I don't want another 5 in the set, so weakening it a bit was better than leaving it that strong and making it a (5). Your opinions on the new version?




Quote
Action - Attack - (4)

+3 Cards
Reveal and discard three cards from
your hand.If you discarded three
differently named cards this way: Each
other player gains a Curse.

After testing it again in a few solitaire games a couple of hours ago, the first version wasn't really that much fun. Discarding 3 while drawing only 2 felt kinda depressing and... not fun. Also, it was counterproductive - the more you play it, the more likely it becomes that your opponent hands you Curses and Ruins as well since he suddenly has a lot more "variety" in his deck.

The cursing ability here is less strong, but the +3 Cards benefit is really nice. It seems priced okay at (4), definitely one of the better ones, though.




Quote
Action - 5

+2 Cards
Gain a card costing less than this.
If it was a Curse:
+1 Card, +1 Action, +1 Buy, + (1).

The first version for (5) with +3 cards was way too strong. The version for (4) with +2 cards even more so. Combining both seems to work fine so far!

With +2 Cards, it still is strong enough while not being overpowered. The Curse bonus isn't really strong, but it's nice to have. It looks like a good BM-enabler, gaining Silvers and drawing cards at the same time, but it can also be nice for engines, grabbing you cheap parts while not losing buying power.




Quote
Action - (5)

+1 Card
+2 Actions
Trash a card from your hand.
If it was a card costing  3  or more:
+1 Card, +1 Action.

The (first?) village of the set.

Version 1 gave +2 Cards instead of +1 Card, +1 Action for trashing a card that costs (3) or more. It was cool, however, this is intended to be a village and forced trashing and a Village somehow don't fit since you want to play your actions and not only trash them. Have it give 3 Actions if you trash a good card makes it more "engine-y", trashing one good card for two villages (3 Actions). So far, it doesn't seem to overpowered. The +1 Card could be dropped, but I will have to test it to see if that is better.




Quote
Treasure - (5)

Worth (2)
You may trash this card immediately.
If you do: + (1), gain a Silver.
---
When you gain this: Take a Coin token.

I wanted a Treasure in this set. The Version 1 Elixir was basically a Silver you could turn into a One-Shot-Gold. It was nothing too special and you guys made me realize it might be a bit too much on the weak side. This version makes it a bit stronger while not being overpowered, I think. You get one free coin and a one-shot Gold for 5. I am currently thinking of adding +Buy when trashing it, but I'm not sure about that yet.




Quote
Action - (5)

Trash a card from your Hand.
If you do: +4 Cards, +1 Buy.

Each other player may trash a card
from his hand.

The first version seemed fine for a while - but +4 cards, even with the drawback of the opponents trashing a card, is just too strong for a (4). It felt like a reversed Council Room anyway, so I tacked a +Buy on it (the set was missing one anyways) and put it at (5). Seems fine now and is fun.

Does anyone have a "Reverse Council Room"-name for me?




Quote
Victory - (6)

Worth 2 VP
When you buy this: Gain a
Reinforcement card, putting it on top your deck.
---
Setup: Add an extra Kingdom card pile to the
supply costing  5  or  6  . Cards from that pile are
Reinforcement cards. Reinforcement cards cannot
be bought.

It's the Victory card of the set, and a simple one at that. Reinforcement cards cannot be bought, but they can be gained, so Remodel-Tricks still work. This is kinda fun when Border Village is the Reinforcement. Also, TFB (Apprentice!) rocks, but it can kinda "junk" your deck as well.

There are always, no matther how many players, 10 copies of Commander in the Supply.

The only change from Version 1 to Version 2 here is that Commander now correctly says "Victory" instead of "Action".


So, that's it for now. As I said, constructive criticism is always welcome.

Thanks!
« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 05:51:43 pm by Eistee »
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sudgy

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Re: Dominion - Leitmotif
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2013, 05:18:35 pm »
0

The pictures don't work, so we can't read it...
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

Eistee

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Re: Dominion - Leitmotif
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2013, 05:47:28 pm »
0

That is unfortunate...

I'll check out what might be wrong here.
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Eistee

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Re: Dominion - Leitmotif
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2013, 05:53:43 pm »
0

Should be fixed.
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Grujah

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Re: Dominion - Leitmotif
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2013, 06:03:34 pm »
0

You mean
Laboratory Maniac, Cavern of Souls, Elixir of Immortality and Master Transmuter? :P
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sudgy

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Re: Dominion - Leitmotif
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2013, 06:22:30 pm »
0

Should be fixed.

Nope, sorry, still not fixed...
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

SirPeebles

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Re: Dominion - Leitmotif
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2013, 06:23:25 pm »
0

I see them fine.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion - Leitmotif
« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2013, 06:54:34 pm »
0

Should be fixed.

No matter what you do, someone is going to be unable to see them. It's traditional to include text versions of your cards for those who cannot see the images.

I don't have time to critique all of your cards right now, but for what it's worth, I have a fan card of my own that Elixir is strictly worse than.

Fund
Types: Treasure
Cost: $5
Worth $2. When you play this, you may trash it. If you do, +1 Buy and gain a Silver, putting it into your hand.

It's always seemed pretty solid at $5, so it wouldn't shock me if Elixir were a bit on the weak side.
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enfynet

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Re: Dominion - Leitmotif
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2013, 07:24:30 pm »
0

Text versions please? It's very difficult to see on my iPod.
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Asper

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Re: Dominion - Leitmotif
« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2013, 07:26:42 pm »
0

Quote
Mad Scientist
Action, 2$
+ 1 Card
Trash a card from your hand. If it was...
An action card: +2 Actions + 1 Buy
A treasure card: + 1$
A victory card: + 1 Card

When the player to your left gains a card costing 4$ or less, you may reveal and discard this from your hand. If you do, either you or he gains another copy of that card, your choice

I think the reaction part is really unfair. If my right neigbor has a MS strategy and another player plays cursers, i have lost allready.

Quote
Observatory
Action, 3$
+ 1 Action
Reveal the top 3 cards of your deck. If you revealed at least one Victory card, put all the revealed cards in your hand. Otherwise, discard them.

Fair and some kind of a fixed Scout. I guess it's better than the original, but then this doesn't say a lot.

Quote
Sacred Cavern
Action, 4$
You may trash a card from your hand. If you do: + 4 Cards
Each other player may trash a card.

This is quite strong. I kind of like it.

Quote
Recreate
Action, 4$
trash a card from your hand. If you do, chose one: Gain an action card costing exactly 1$ more then it, putting it in your hand. Or: Gain a silver.

Might be overpowered.

Will post text versions of the rest, but this for now before somebody starts doing the same.

Edit: Second part

Quote
Ghost Town
Action, 5$
+ 1 Card
+ 2 Actions
Trash a card from your hand. If it was a card costing 3$ or more: + 2 Cards

As i compared this to Junk Trader, it first seemed overpowered. The fact that you only get cards if the trashed one costs 3$ or more makes me think it could be balanced.

Quote
Elixir
Treasure, 5$
2$
You may trash this card immediately. If you do: +1$, gain a Silver.

Reminds me of my "Stocks". I think it's balanced.

Quote
Philosophers (Ver 1)
Action, 4$
+ 2 Cards
Gain a card costing less then this. if it was a Curse: +1 Card, + 1 Action, + 1 Buy, +1$

A bit too strong for me. The effect without the curse clause alone is at least a 3$ (Silver is almost always a nice thing to gain), but if there's good trashing on the board, it's even better.

Quote
Philosophers (Ver 2)
Action, 5$
+ 3 Cards
Gain a card costing less then this. If it was a Curse: + 1 Action, +1 Buy, + 1$

So this is a Smithy with a Workshop, which is a 5$ by itself, methinks. The Curse clause makes this not that much better, but still...

Quote
Coven
Action - Attack - Looter, 5$
+ 2 Cards
+ 1$
Discard three cards from your hand. If you discarded three differently named cards this way, each other player gains a Curse and a Ruins.

I don't know yet whether i find this too weak or to hard an attack. Maybe both? I really don't know.

Quote
Commander
Victory, 6$
2 VP
When you buy this, gain a Reenforcement card, putting it on top of your deck.

Add an extra kingdom card pile to the supply costing 5$ or 6$. Cards from that pile are Reenforcement cards. Reenforcement cards can not be bought.

Can they be gained? For example by Altar? If not, they are not part of the supply. Just saying.

Edit 2: Just found out that "Leitmotif" is an actual english word. *Shiver* As a german, that a misspelling of "Leitmotiv" irritates me.
Edit 3: For all those who can't see the images: Many look really good. I like Elixir most. :)
« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 08:54:47 am by Asper »
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Dominion - Leitmotif
« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2013, 08:29:15 pm »
0

Mad Scientist - I don't like that the reaction refers to only the player to your left.  Much like Possession, it can make a big difference who you're sitting next to.  On the other hand, you are right in that this would get politicsy if it could be any player.  Maybe just don't allow doubling junk cards?  That is, "When another player gains a card costing $4 or less, you may reveal and discard this from your hand.  If you do, gain a copy of it."  As for the top, this is probably fantastic with ruins, great for trashing estates, and mediocre otherwise.  I think the top is good.

Observatory - This sounds too good for $3.  Compare to Advisor: This draws three cards, one of which sucks, whereas Advisor draws the worst two of three cards; and Advisor costs $4.  Maybe that comparison is not easy to make, now that I think about it.  Well, I think you will be drawing 3 cards about half the time with this.  It is quite an interesting lab variant, but I would probably put it at $4.

Sacred Cavern - This is probably a little strong, but letting other players trash is a pretty big deal.  I would guess it's a top $4, but that's okay.

Recreate - I would guess this is too strong.  Giving +1 action and gain an action card of your choice into hand (albeit a restricted choice) can just get too crazy.  Band of Misfits is as good as it is because of its versatility.  Being able to exchange a card for a better card, which you can play right away, is very nice.  But then also being able to gain a silver if you don't want/need another action card just makes it even more versatile.

Ghost Town - A trashing village!  I've always wanted one of these.  This actually sounds very nicely balanced.  Cantrip trashing is always nice except when it's not, but just a trashing village would probably be too strong for $4 and too weak for $5.  The +cards bonus if you trash something good probably makes it useful later on at those times when you would like to go crazy with Apprentice, but this isn't as good as Apprentice at doing that.  I really like this card.

Elixir - This sounds really, really weak.  I think it's strictly worse than a Silver that gives you a coin token when you buy it.  But this costs $5.  I don't want to pay $2 extra to later on maybe get $1 when I need it.  Maybe give a better trash bonus, like +$2, or do a venture when you trash it or something.  Or maybe venture for a treasure costing $3 or more.  I don't know why I'm so hung up on venture, there are probably other things you could do.

Philosophers - I'll comment on both versions at once because I'm not really sure about either of them, and have the same general opinion of both.  Drawing and gaining is probably pretty nice on a lot of boards.  The curse-gaining option is interesting and probably won't be used much, but it will make a big difference when it is used, so that's good.  I would guess the $5 version is probably better, but it's hard to say.  You will really need to playtest this to find out how good it is.

Coven - First, just a wording thing: it needs to be reveal and discard, because when you discard multiple cards at a time, other players can only see one of them.  (Goko has this wrong because it's goko.)  This will probably cause games to go really, really slowly.  After playing it you end up with only 3 cards in hand (but +$1), so you really slow yourself down, and then your opponents gain 2 junk cards, which really slows them down.  Discarding three differently named cards is probably pretty easy to do once you start getting junked up in your deck (two different ruins and a curse; a curse, a copper, and a ruin; a ruin, curse, and estate; copper, ruin estate; etc.).  This card just doesn't sound like fun to me, even if it does turn out to be okay balance-wise.  But I don't think it will be okay balance-wise, it seems too strong.  Sure, it will be hard to give them junk at the beginning before you have any ruins.  But it's probably worth throwing most of a turn to give your opponent two junk cards.

Commander - This is really cool.  It will vary hugely from game to game.  When the reinforcement card is something useless (like Counting House in a thing engine game) gaining it might be a disadvantage.  But it's a cool way to get Adventurers into people's decks and stuff like that.  If the reinforcement card is Grand Market, though, that might get crazy.  Minor thing: can Knights be the reinforcement card?  They don't all cost $5 or $6.

Overall these seem to be well done.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Dominion - Leitmotif
« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2013, 09:02:39 pm »
+1

Mad Scientist -- Trashing an action to get +2 actions is counterproductive.  How likely are you to have 2 actions you want to play plus a third you're willing to trash?  That said, it should be alright for a $2 card.  It should actually be pretty strong just as a trasher, without the bonuses.  Trashing a Victory card makes it effectively a Masquerade.  Trashing a Treasure is similar, though the "second card drawn" is a Copper.  So this is actually pretty strong for a $2 card, though it could still be OK.

The reaction is too crazy though.  Forcing the opponent to gain extra cards is very powerful.  Power is not necessarily a bad thing, but there is a bigger problem.  The reaction becomes somewhat political in games with 3+ players, because now you can play Witch and then discard Mad Scientist.  The player to your right gains 1 Curse... the player to your left gains 2.  Nice.  Or maybe I play Witch and the player to my left discards 2 Mad Scientists and the third player gains 3 Curses instead of 1.  Huh.

I guess it isn't that big a deal if you don't mind it, but it does stray from some core Dominion philosophy.

You do say that you make it "player to your left" only, but it can still be political.  I can always choose not to discard Mad Scientist because I don't want you to take the extra Curse for some reason.  There are edge cases for that, certainly. :P



Observatory -- Very interesting.  I like it.


Sacred Cavern -- Looks too powerful to me.  The on play is often better than CR because trashing is usually a good thing.  It gets harder to trigger in the late game, but with +4 cards at $4 and the ability to trash your starting junk, the game might end before you even get to that stage!  Letting everyone else trash weakens the card a bit, of course, but not that much.  I mean, they'll also be trashing with Sacred Cavern probably.  But I expect Sacred Cavern would absolutely take over any game that it is in.  As it is, I would already start testing it at $5.



Recreate -- Gaining actions directly to hand is always a bit scary, especially when you do it non-terminally.  I don't believe there is an official card that does that, so it is fairly popular as a fan card idea.  This one looks like it may work because of the exact Upgrade restriction.  I would like it better if it did not gain Silver for you.  Not every card has to be useful all the time.  If it gains Silver while non-terminally trashing, it is always a good trasher.  What's so bad about being bad at trashing Copper?  The same is true for Salvager, Apprentice, Upgrade itself.  This does not need the Silver gain and is more interesting without it, because it will be pretty weak on some boards but amazingly powerful on others (Fortress, hahaha).  That would be just fine.  That would be cool.

If you drop the Silver gain option, you might consier dropping it to $3 cost.  This is not strictly a buff though -- at $3 you could open Recreate/Fortress for some shenanigans.  But at $4, it allows for Recreating another Recreate into a power $5.


Ghost Town -- Not really a fan.  In some games it'll play very, very similarly to Upgrade.  The trashing function will usually overshadow the village function, especially because it is actually not that great a village -- a problem you identified.  You usually want villages for engines, and engines usually cycle very quickly.  Since GT trashes, it helps speed up that cycle even further.  You'll be playing GT a lot and you will eventually run out of good targets.  Now your Villages are kind of dead.  So GT on the board actually doesn't point to "engine" because it is a village.  It might so because it is a cantrip trasher... but we already have those.

This is a minor nitpick though.  Upgrade and Junk Dealer also play very similarly.  But somehow I find the extra action from GT to be a little weird, because it pretends to be a village but it would be very, very rare when you actually buy it for that purpose.



Elixir -- I swear I've seen this card before.  Even the image looks familiar.  Not sure how I feel about it.
(Edit: oh, it's from a Magic card... well, the card effect seems familiar too.)


Philosophers -- The first version can be "+2 Cards, gain a Silver", and that sounds pretty decent.  The curse option is a bit scary, especially with Watchtower in the kingdom.  It might be alright anyway.  The second version always draws 3 cards.  The gain is pretty powerful still, and the Curse option is there if you need it (and again -- scary with Watchtower).  I like the cheaper version better, but overall I'm not sure if it works.  It might.



Coven -- I think it sounds OK?  Not sure.  The key thing is that the discard is mandatory and actually more than what you draw.  After playing Coven from a 5 card hand, you end with 3.  It makes up for it by junking even more powerfully than Mountebank.  It's harder to trigger though, because you need to discard 3 differently named cards... Copper, Estate... Silver?  Ouch.

Overall I think this is probably balanced.  However, it doesn't sound very fun to me.  I create a net card loss in my hand, potentially cripling me more than if I had played Sea Hag (which doesn't actively hurt; it just doesn't help).  Even worse, if I want to junk, I need to discard 3 differently named cards and chances are that at least the third card will be Silver or something else good (and in that case, it WOULD really hurt my turn).  So even in the success case, it doesn't feel great because I sort of hit myself with a discard attack.  If I fail (don't have 3 differently named cards), it feels even worse.  And then for opponents, to get hit by a Curse AND a Ruins feels pretty bad.  That's a lot of junk.  At least Coppers from MB are usable, and at least I can Moat future MBs with Curse.  This card just slaps you and you can't retaliate (without other reaction cards, if they happen to be on the board).

But that's just me, of course.  Definitely try testing it as it is to see if people enjoy it.  It is pretty interesting.  If people don't (or if they do but it's too weak somehow), don't try buffing it by reducing the discard requirement. I think that would make it way too strong and easy to trigger.

(Edit: An interesting note is that once one person successfully activates it, it makes it easier for others to activate because now they have Curses and a bunch of different Ruins to discard.  Thinking on it further, I think it might be too strong simply because it will empty two piles at once, much like IGG, but all of it is junk going into others' decks.  Hmm, this one is quite difficult to evaluate theoretically.)


Commander -- You missed the "Victory" type on this card.  The name is strange because it's a person instead of a place.  The VPs that are non-places are (off the top of my head) Harem, Nobles, and Dame Josephine.  All of these are hybrid Victory cards though.

It looks interesting -- add another card, but now that card comes with some 2VP junk.  Is this Reinforcement card still worth it?  Maybe you don't want the extra dead card.  Maybe you do because you need the VP, or are happy to take the TfB fodder.  I like it.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2013, 09:07:38 pm by eHalcyon »
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jamespotter

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Re: Dominion - Leitmotif
« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2013, 10:32:23 pm »
0

Quote
Mad Scientist
Action, 4$
+ 1 Card
Trash a card from your hand. If it was...
An action card: +2 Actions + 1 Buy
A treasure card: + 1$
A victory card: + 1 Card

When the player to your left gains a card costing 4$ or less, you may reveal and discard this from your hand. If you do, either you or he gains another copy of that card, your choice
The reaction is an unbalanced one, and I can't figure out a way to fix it. The top nigh be okay by itself as a $3 card.

Quote
Observatory
Action, 3$
+ 1 Action
Reveal the top 3 cards of your deck. If you revealed at least one action card, put all the revealed cards in your hand. Otherwise, discard them.
The fact that this is almost strictly better than scout irritates me, but it is a balanced card.

Quote
Sacred Cavern
Action, 4$
You may trash a card from your hand. If you do: + 4 Cards
Each other player may trash a card.

This seems too strong for a $4 card. Maybe $5 with a very small boost.

Quote
Recreate
Action, 4$
+1 action
trash a card from your hand. If you do, choose one: Gain an action card costing exactly 1$ more then it, putting it in your hand. Or: Gain a silver.

This seems too powerful for a $4. I would almost always always open with this. I would buy this as is at $5.

Quote
Ghost Town
Action, 5$
+ 1 Card
+ 2 Actions
Trash a card from your hand. If it was a card costing 3$ or more: + 2 Cards

This is the best variation on a trashing village I've seen. Looks fun.

Quote
Elixir
Treasure, 5$
2$
You may trash this card immediately. If you do: +1$, gain a Silver.

This seems a little weak. Maybe add a slight bonus?


Quote
Philosophers (Ver 2)
Action, 5$
+ 3 Cards
Gain a card costing less then this. If it was a Curse: + 1 Action, +1 Buy, + 1$

Philosopher 1 is too powerful. This one is interesting, but still a bit too good, IMO. Maybe say costing up to $3 for the gaining.

Quote
Coven
Action - Attack - Looter, 5$
+ 2 Cards
+ 1$
Discard three cards from your hand. If you discarded three differently named cards this way, each other player gains a Curse and a Ruins.
This card is balanced, but I think it would seldom be bought. It won't even be effective until mistake, and its effect on your opponents is diminished as the game progresses.

Quote
Commander
Victory, 6$
2 VP
When you buy this, gain a Reenforcement card, putting it on top of your deck.

Add an extra kingdom card pile to the supply costing 5$ or 6$. Cards from that pile are Reenforcement cards. Reenforcement cards can not be bought.

This is a fun interesting, and seemingly balanced card. Well done.

I like the MtG pictures, and this set seems to have a slight trashing trashing subtheme.

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eHalcyon

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Re: Dominion - Leitmotif
« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2013, 12:23:23 am »
0

Just noticed that the transcription for Mad Scientist is incorrect.  The image shows it as a $2 card, but the transcription has it at $4.
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Eistee

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Re: Dominion - Leitmotif
« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2013, 02:05:31 am »
0

Thanks for the feedback, you all. I am currently at work, so my reply has to wait just a little longer.

I will add text versions of all the cards later. Also, I missed the special rule for Commander that no matter how many players are playing, 10 cards of Commander are used. I will fix the "Action" on it later as well.
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StrongRhino

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Re: Dominion - Leitmotif
« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2013, 02:07:08 am »
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I would say that Knights can be used as Reinforcements, because the Kinghts randomizer pile says 5 (responding to scott_pilgrim)
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ConMan

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Re: Dominion - Leitmotif
« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2013, 02:49:12 am »
+1

Just noticed that the transcription for Mad Scientist is incorrect.  The image shows it as a $2 card, but the transcription has it at $4.
Also the Observatory image states that if one of the revealed cards is a Victory card, put them all in hand. Not Action. I think that quite heavily affects both how strong it is and what strategies it suits.
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Asper

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Re: Dominion - Leitmotif
« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2013, 08:57:46 am »
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Transcript cards and Nobody bats an eye. Make a mistake and everybody loses their mind.
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Awaclus

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Re: Dominion - Leitmotif
« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2013, 09:03:11 am »
0

Transcript cards and Nobody bats an eye. Make a mistake and everybody loses their mind.
And what was the moral of the story? Don't make any mistakes while transcripting cards!
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Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

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SirPeebles

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Re: Dominion - Leitmotif
« Reply #19 on: July 01, 2013, 09:20:54 am »
0

Just noticed that the transcription for Mad Scientist is incorrect.  The image shows it as a $2 card, but the transcription has it at $4.
Also the Observatory image states that if one of the revealed cards is a Victory card, put them all in hand. Not Action. I think that quite heavily affects both how strong it is and what strategies it suits.

Ah, that's what happened.  I remember looking at Observatory and thinking, "damn that is overpowered.  why did it seem reasonable earlier?"
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Eistee

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Re: Dominion - Leitmotif
« Reply #20 on: July 01, 2013, 02:03:58 pm »
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I'm still sitting at work (long day today), so I didn't get to fixing up the cards yet. I got some neat ideas for a few of them, though.
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Eistee

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Re: Dominion - Leitmotif (Updated - 07/01/13)
« Reply #21 on: July 01, 2013, 05:47:27 pm »
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Thank you all for your great input - everyone of you all played a role in the first revision. Thanks for that!

First revision features:
"Bugfixes" ("Commander" being classified as an Action, missing spaces, ...)
New versions of most of the cards.
Transcribed versions for the people not seeing the pictures.

What are your thoughts on the first revision?
« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 05:49:51 pm by Eistee »
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Dominion - Leitmotif (Updated - 07/01/13)
« Reply #22 on: July 01, 2013, 06:49:58 pm »
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Quote
Action - 2

+1 Card
Trash a card from your hand. It it was...
an Action card: +2 Actions, +1 Buy
a Treasure card: +  1
a Victory card: +1 Card
---
When you play an Attack card with this in play, you
may trash this. If you do, choose one: Gain a Gold;
or each other player gains a Curse.
I like this.  It is probably on the strong side but that's okay, I think it's probably on the same level as Squire.  The top is the same, so I don't have much to say about that.  The bottom gives you a way to trash your trasher when you're done trashing, and hand a Curse to everyone else, but it's not too easy to trigger.  I think this is good as it is.

Quote
Action - (3)

+1 Action
Reveal the top three cards of your deck.
If you reveal at least one Victory
card this way: Put all the revealed cards
into your hand. Otherwise: Discard all
the revealed cards.
This hasn't changed at all.  I commented before that I thought it should cost $4, but as I think about it more I think it is fine at $3.  This might be my favorite card in the set; it's a very innovative way of doing cheap non-terminal draw.

Quote
Action - (4)

Trash a card from your Hand.
If you do, choose one:
Gain an Action card costing exactly (1)
more than it, putting it on top of your
deck; or gain a Silver.
This does the fix the problem that it had before.  I'm worried now that it might be weak, but it's a tough call.  There's a big difference between gaining in hand and gain to top-deck, so that makes it a lot weaker, and now it's also terminal.  I tend to find that, in general, terminals which trash a single card from hand (Remodel/Expand come to mind) with no draw are weak.  They leave you sitting with a three card hand, no actions remaining, and you don't see the benefits until your next shuffle.  This top-decks the gained card (if it is an action), so at least you see the benefit a lot sooner, and if you have an action leftover and a cantrip in hand, you can draw it and play it this turn, like you can with Armory.  This can gain $5's (and $6's and $7's) and it also trashes, so in comparison to Armory it sounds good, but this is a lot more restrictive.  I'm not sure what to think about this.  I'm guessing that it is weak, but you'll have to test it.  Maybe try having the Silver go to top-deck or even in hand if it turns out to be weak.

Quote
Action - Attack - (4)

+3 Cards
Reveal and discard three cards from
your hand.If you discarded three
differently named cards this way: Each
other player gains a Curse.
This sounds good.  In comparison to Young Witch, it draws and discards an extra card, and then it has a different way of being "blocked".  I would think that it is probably easier to discard three differently named cards (given that you're discarding three anyway) than it is to buy a Bane and then have it in hand when Young Witch is played, but it's close enough that this isn't going to be clearly better than Young Witch.  A lot of times you'll probably get caught wondering whether it's worthwhile to discard a Silver instead of a Copper, which reminds me of DXV's original Witch: "You may pay $1.  If you do, each other player gains a Curse."

Quote
Action - 5

+2 Cards
Gain a card costing less than this.
If it was a Curse:
+1 Card, +1 Action, +1 Buy, + (1).
This didn't change much since the last version, just a new combination of +cards and cost.  I like this card, the curse-gaining sounds like it might be useful near the end, but clearly not the typical use of the card.  I don't have much else to say about it.

Quote
Action - (5)

+1 Card
+2 Actions
Trash a card from your hand.
If it was a card costing  3  or more:
+1 Card, +1 Action.
I liked +2 cards better than +1 card, +1 action.  The odds are that if I'm drawing two more cards and still have two actions, I'm probably not going to have three terminals unless I have at least one more village in hand.  I don't think that third action is going to be useful most of the time, and I think you deserve a decent reward for trashing something costing $3 or more.  The +2 cards is stronger, and I think having a bigger bonus is better on this card (I would expect it to be a little weak otherwise).

Quote
Treasure - (5)

Worth (2)
You may trash this card immediately.
If you do: + (1), gain a Silver.
---
When you gain this: Take a Coin token.
This might be okay now.  It's kind of like a $4 Silver variant, which is usually a bad thing, except that you still have to spend $5 to get it.  You just get refunded with a coin token.  Having it at $5 makes it compete with other $5 cards, which I think is its biggest drawback.  I think this would be a nice card in BM games with only weak $5's on the board, but probably ignorable otherwise.

Quote
Action - (5)

Trash a card from your Hand.
If you do: +4 Cards, +1 Buy.

Each other player may trash a card
from his hand.
This sounds good.  It would be interesting to build an engine around this, because your opponent can only trash so many cards out of a five-card hand.  After playing two or three of these it's kind of like a Council Room with no drawback.  You still have to trash though, which limits the number of times you want to play them over the course of the game.  I like it.

Quote
Victory - (6)

Worth 2 VP
When you buy this: Gain a
Reinforcement card, putting it on top your deck.
---
Setup: Add an extra Kingdom card pile to the
supply costing  5  or  6  . Cards from that pile are
Reinforcement cards. Reinforcement cards cannot
be bought.
I still like this, not much else to say about it.

I think you fixed all of the big problems with this revision.  The comments that I made are mostly just suggestions for tweaking some minor things.  Other people may disagree and if you get an equilibrium of diverging opinions then that probably means the cards are fine as they are.
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StrongRhino

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Re: Dominion - Leitmotif (Updated - 07/01/13)
« Reply #23 on: July 02, 2013, 12:36:07 am »
0

Personally I think Recreate should be tweaked to allow the in hand gaining, it was a cool mechanic and the current version is probably a bit weak.
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Powerman

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Re: Dominion - Leitmotif (Updated - 07/01/13)
« Reply #24 on: July 02, 2013, 12:44:41 am »
0

Recreate seems VERY weak when compared to Upgrade.  Lose +1 Card / +1 Action and the loss of flexibility (ie. 5 --> Gold) for the top-decking and the $1 price reduction?

I'd say it needs at least a vanilla bonus -->  I'd try either +1 Action, or $1 / $2.  My guess is making it non-terminal should be a good start.
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