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Author Topic: WW's Power Rankings  (Read 147504 times)

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GendoIkari

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #725 on: February 23, 2014, 11:57:14 pm »
0

Is there a board that has Masquerade on it where you wouldn't open Masquerade?
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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #726 on: February 24, 2014, 12:45:28 am »
0

Is there a board that has Masquerade on it where you wouldn't open Masquerade?
Rushes and combos such as ironworks-silk road, native village-bridge, herbalist-philosopher's stone and hermit-market square come to mind as obvious examples.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #727 on: February 24, 2014, 11:16:49 am »
+1

Is there a board that has Masquerade on it where you wouldn't open Masquerade?
Rushes and combos such as ironworks-silk road, native village-bridge, herbalist-philosopher's stone and hermit-market square come to mind as obvious examples.

I'd open Masquerade on a NV/Bridge board. It seems pretty unlikely that Herbalist/Pstone is strong on a board with Masquerade, I'm not even sure it beats Masq BM. It can probably speed up the Ironworks rushes as well, letting you pile out faster in a nonmirror. And it might help you win the Gardens/Silk Road split if it's a mirror.
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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #728 on: February 24, 2014, 11:37:04 am »
0

With Workshop rush, you don't want the Masquerade though. But then, on the other hand, a Workshop rush might have a hard time being fast enough against a Masquerade deck.
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Holger

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #729 on: February 24, 2014, 12:35:36 pm »
0

Is there a board that has Masquerade on it where you wouldn't open Masquerade?
E.g. a board where Rebuild is dominant (i.e. no strong engine potential) ;). And any 5-2 start with a very strong $5 card, of course.
I think I'd also prefer Chapel and Ambassador over Masquerade on most boards...
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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #730 on: February 24, 2014, 12:47:22 pm »
0

I think I'd also prefer Chapel and Ambassador over Masquerade on most boards...

Do you mean you'd rather that one of those cards be in the Supply instead of Masquerade, or that you'd rather buy one of them than Masquerade if both are out? 'Cause I gotta tell you, if you play a Chapel deck against Masquerade, you should be prepared to pass a lot of nice cards to your opponent.
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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #731 on: February 24, 2014, 03:11:02 pm »
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Is there a board that has Masquerade on it where you wouldn't open Masquerade?

Yes

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #732 on: February 24, 2014, 04:21:29 pm »
+19

Is there a board that has Masquerade on it where you wouldn't open Masquerade?

When Masquerade is on the board, I always pass.
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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #733 on: February 24, 2014, 04:47:58 pm »
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I think I'd also prefer Chapel and Ambassador over Masquerade on most boards...

Do you mean you'd rather that one of those cards be in the Supply instead of Masquerade, or that you'd rather buy one of them than Masquerade if both are out? 'Cause I gotta tell you, if you play a Chapel deck against Masquerade, you should be prepared to pass a lot of nice cards to your opponent.

I meant the second, but I suppose you're right that it's not such a good idea. I forgot that the card-passing does matter sometimes...
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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #734 on: February 24, 2014, 07:01:15 pm »
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if there's beggar and gardens and nothing equally strong, there's no poing going masquerade at all. it draws 2 cards - so what, beggar gets you 3 coppers in hand. it can trash a copper - but you don't want to trash coppers. it can trash estates - that might be good very early, but it's not worth much. it passes a card - no big deal, your opponent is very likely to have a bad card in his hand

beggar/beggar will be much better.

i'm pretty sure that for every card there exists a board on which you wouldn't buy that card, including treasure and victory cards
« Last Edit: February 24, 2014, 07:04:30 pm by silverspawn »
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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #735 on: February 24, 2014, 07:18:13 pm »
+4

i'm pretty sure that for every card there exists a board on which you wouldn't buy that card, including treasure and victory cards
That's every board, if you're trying to play on Goko right now!
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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #736 on: February 25, 2014, 04:55:23 pm »
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Rebuild being low some people will talk about - it is VERY good. But it's really not unbeatable - if you get a strong engine OR good BM, you can definitely overtake it.

I wonder to what extent this is actually true, and to what extent it's just that people have forgotten how to play Rebuild in the non-mirror.  I feel like I've seen a lot of players who continue to play the "grab as many Duchies as quickly as possible, then Rebuild into Provinces" plan even when their opponent is not going for Rebuild, and that's just terrible.  The whole point of Rebuild is that it quickly cuts down the total number of VP on the board and gives you a lead, so that it becomes impossible for the opponent to catch up.  If you go with the "normal" engine plan of delaying greening so that you can grab multiple green cards per turn later, there's a good chance there won't be enough green cards left for you to grab.  So I think there's a rock-paper-scissors thing going on: Rebuild beats (most) engines, engines beat good big money, good big money beats Rebuild.  Of course some great engines and possibly some power-combo decks will still beat everything, but I think a board where an engine is the optimal plan rather than Rebuild is rare.

Also, I've been wondering if Rebuild could actually be a good addition to some decks that aren't centered on it.  I actually don't think I've ever tried it, because it sounds bad (and I can imagine that it is bad in engines), but maybe the kind of strong BM deck that normally beats Rebuild would be better off picking up a Rebuild of its own?  Non-terminal +2 or 3 VP with some end-game control is not bad in a BM deck.

I actually doubt that "good" BM can beat Rebuild reasonably often, at least when playing without Colonies and Shelters - AFAIK the only halfway common BM-X strategy that beats pure Rebuild-BM (and is not beaten by Rebuild-X-BM) is Bank-Wharf, unless you count the combos Beggar-Gardens and Feodum-Masterpiece as BM.
(I don't know if there's simulation data on whether Cultist-BM beats Rebuild-BM, but I doubt it.)

Rebuild is a good addition e.g. to Witch-BM, which beats Rebuild-BM, but is beaten by "Witch-into-Rebuild"-BM. (However, this strategy is arguably still "centered" on Rebuild, since you buy more Rebuilds than Witches.)
Rebuild+X+BM being better than X+BM doesn't count, in my mind, as a win for Rebuild, per se. I'm looking at the "either-or" question (plus some allowances for three-piling). So if Rebuild+Witch>Rebuild>Witch, this shows Rebuild on top, but if Smithy+Rebuild>Smithy>Rebuild, that's a win for smithy (not that I'm actually claiming that that one is true - but I don't think it's as lopsided as you might think).

I'm also not sure how you're coming up with what "beats" what here - I am going off experience-driven-intuitions. I assume that Cultist-BM should win against rebuild, Wharf-FG certainly ought to, and even something as simple as Courtyard/Vault/Embassy/Jack are competitive, to the extent that they don't need much help to overcome (and whilst things can help rebuild, they tend to help these things more). FG with basically any +buy/gain card (eh, maybe not altar) probably gets there. Venture, Masterpiece, and especially Counterfeit are really going to help a lot of these strategies. And yes, you are often going to take Rebuilds as well, but you'll play it significantly differently than a straight Rebuild-BM.

It's also worth noting that you're only playing without colonies and without shelters in about 2/3 of your Rebuild games, assuming the full-random propotional-distribution of rules that I stipulate in the OP.





As for the Cartographer, Quarry, vs mediocre cursing discussion, I recently played this game I find pretty instructive:
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20140220/log.514b5511e4b0b79c883b5e3b.1392934573756.txt

Polk5440

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #737 on: February 25, 2014, 06:19:29 pm »
0

Rebuild+X+BM being better than X+BM doesn't count, in my mind, as a win for Rebuild, per se. I'm looking at the "either-or" question (plus some allowances for three-piling). So if Rebuild+Witch>Rebuild>Witch, this shows Rebuild on top, but if Smithy+Rebuild>Smithy>Rebuild, that's a win for smithy (not that I'm actually claiming that that one is true - but I don't think it's as lopsided as you might think).

I'm also not sure how you're coming up with what "beats" what here - I am going off experience-driven-intuitions. I assume that Cultist-BM should win against rebuild, Wharf-FG certainly ought to, and even something as simple as Courtyard/Vault/Embassy/Jack are competitive, to the extent that they don't need much help to overcome (and whilst things can help rebuild, they tend to help these things more). FG with basically any +buy/gain card (eh, maybe not altar) probably gets there. Venture, Masterpiece, and especially Counterfeit are really going to help a lot of these strategies. And yes, you are often going to take Rebuilds as well, but you'll play it significantly differently than a straight Rebuild-BM.

It's also worth noting that you're only playing without colonies and without shelters in about 2/3 of your Rebuild games, assuming the full-random propotional-distribution of rules that I stipulate in the OP.

So, based on this Dominate Sim, DoubleWitch > Rebuild (about 60-40). So I would think Cultist > Rebuild, too.
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Holger

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #738 on: February 26, 2014, 11:18:58 am »
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Rebuild being low some people will talk about - it is VERY good. But it's really not unbeatable - if you get a strong engine OR good BM, you can definitely overtake it.

I wonder to what extent this is actually true, and to what extent it's just that people have forgotten how to play Rebuild in the non-mirror.  I feel like I've seen a lot of players who continue to play the "grab as many Duchies as quickly as possible, then Rebuild into Provinces" plan even when their opponent is not going for Rebuild, and that's just terrible.  The whole point of Rebuild is that it quickly cuts down the total number of VP on the board and gives you a lead, so that it becomes impossible for the opponent to catch up.  If you go with the "normal" engine plan of delaying greening so that you can grab multiple green cards per turn later, there's a good chance there won't be enough green cards left for you to grab.  So I think there's a rock-paper-scissors thing going on: Rebuild beats (most) engines, engines beat good big money, good big money beats Rebuild.  Of course some great engines and possibly some power-combo decks will still beat everything, but I think a board where an engine is the optimal plan rather than Rebuild is rare.

Also, I've been wondering if Rebuild could actually be a good addition to some decks that aren't centered on it.  I actually don't think I've ever tried it, because it sounds bad (and I can imagine that it is bad in engines), but maybe the kind of strong BM deck that normally beats Rebuild would be better off picking up a Rebuild of its own?  Non-terminal +2 or 3 VP with some end-game control is not bad in a BM deck.

I actually doubt that "good" BM can beat Rebuild reasonably often, at least when playing without Colonies and Shelters - AFAIK the only halfway common BM-X strategy that beats pure Rebuild-BM (and is not beaten by Rebuild-X-BM) is Bank-Wharf, unless you count the combos Beggar-Gardens and Feodum-Masterpiece as BM.
(I don't know if there's simulation data on whether Cultist-BM beats Rebuild-BM, but I doubt it.)

Rebuild is a good addition e.g. to Witch-BM, which beats Rebuild-BM, but is beaten by "Witch-into-Rebuild"-BM. (However, this strategy is arguably still "centered" on Rebuild, since you buy more Rebuilds than Witches.)
Rebuild+X+BM being better than X+BM doesn't count, in my mind, as a win for Rebuild, per se. I'm looking at the "either-or" question (plus some allowances for three-piling). So if Rebuild+Witch>Rebuild>Witch, this shows Rebuild on top, but if Smithy+Rebuild>Smithy>Rebuild, that's a win for smithy (not that I'm actually claiming that that one is true - but I don't think it's as lopsided as you might think).
I would call this a "win" for both cards in both cases - i.e. I wouldn't put one card above the other if both are an integral part of the optimal strategy. (FWIW, Rebuild wins against Smithy in 75% of Province-Estate games, according to Dominiate.)

I'm also not sure how you're coming up with what "beats" what here - I am going off experience-driven-intuitions. I assume that Cultist-BM should win against rebuild, Wharf-FG certainly ought to, and even something as simple as Courtyard/Vault/Embassy/Jack are competitive, to the extent that they don't need much help to overcome (and whilst things can help rebuild, they tend to help these things more). FG with basically any +buy/gain card (eh, maybe not altar) probably gets there. Venture, Masterpiece, and especially Counterfeit are really going to help a lot of these strategies. And yes, you are often going to take Rebuilds as well, but you'll play it significantly differently than a straight Rebuild-BM.

It's also worth noting that you're only playing without colonies and without shelters in about 2/3 of your Rebuild games, assuming the full-random propotional-distribution of rules that I stipulate in the OP.

My comment was based on my own (limited) experience and the simulation results from Dominiate (http://gokologs.drunkensailor.org/static/dominiate/play.html). It hasn't implemented Cultist or Fool's Gold, unfortunately, but my experience implies at best a tie between Cultist and Rebuild. Wharf-Fool's Gold might indeed win against Rebuild, I haven't played such a board yet. But Rebuild beats e.g. Courtyard-BM or DoubleJack in two out of three games on Province-Estate boards according to Dominiate, I wouldn't call that competitive for the latter. And unlike all the other cards you mention (except Fool's Gold), Rebuild is nonterminal, so almost every cheap terminal action (that doesn't draw cards) helps Rebuild, but not the other cards (unless you go for an engine). Even Chancellor is a good support card for Rebuild-BM...

Of course Shelters and Colonies weaken Rebuild; but I think Rebuild is still dominant in most Shelter games. I have no experience on Rebuild+Colony, so I can't comment there.
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Holger

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #739 on: February 26, 2014, 11:27:45 am »
0

So, based on this Dominate Sim, DoubleWitch > Rebuild (about 60-40). So I would think Cultist > Rebuild, too.

I don't think this follows. AFAIK, DoubleWitch beats Cultist as well. And the -10VP due to Curses are huge in low-scoring Rebuild games. With no other terminals, Rebuild can also play a Shelter every turn, so e.g. Ruined Mine is almost as good as Copper.
But it would be interesting to have simulation results on this question...
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SCSN

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #740 on: February 26, 2014, 02:45:28 pm »
+4

I don't recall the exact numbers because it's months ago that I did the simulations, but Rebuild beats Cultist-BM and in general Shelters have a slight but practically negligible impact on Rebuild's viability: the effect is so small that you're unlikely to ever encounter a kingdom in which it matters, and if you do, you won't be able to notice it (unless perhaps the opposing strategy is known to be close in the first place and itself benefits significantly from the presence of Shelters).

Contrary to common belief, Rebuild is still very strong (but indeed a bit weaker) in Colony games: you can end the game on Provinces just the same, so a competing engine doesn't just need to be powerful, it also needs to be fast. The only thing about Colonies is that the Rebuild player won't be able to get half of the VP as easily, so that an engine that can grab enough Colonies before the Rebuild player can end it is now competitive, but, say, a Goon's engine that's slightly too slow in a Province game will be too slow to the exact same extent if Colonies are on board.

And Rebuild-Jack > Rebuild > Jack is certainly a win for Rebuild; that Rebuild-Jack beats Rebuild has nothing to do with the power of Jack over Rebuild, but rather with the power of Jack over Silver.

As for Rebuild vs. Witch: yes, Witch-BM beats pure Rebuild (though not by 60-40), but in practice you'll be playing pure Rebuild only rarely, as there's usually a card that supplants it, and adding either a Jack, Horse Traders, Monument, Tournament, Rogue or Graverobber to a Rebuild strategy beats Witch for sure, and probably also Swindler, Scavenger, Scheme, Warehouse, Baron, Navigator and maybe even Chancellor and Oasis. Because these cards don't help the Witch player to the same extent, Witch can still be safely ignored on many/most Rebuild boards (unless Witch into Rebuild beats those strategies, which is something I haven't checked but is certainly possible).
« Last Edit: February 26, 2014, 03:22:47 pm by SheCantSayNo »
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Polk5440

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #741 on: February 26, 2014, 06:44:31 pm »
+1

As for Rebuild vs. Witch: yes, Witch-BM beats pure Rebuild (though not by 60-40)

In the sim I linked to it was about 60-40. That is what I was referring to.
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SCSN

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #742 on: February 26, 2014, 06:50:28 pm »
0

That has to be a sample-size issue.
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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #743 on: March 01, 2014, 09:56:15 pm »
0

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #744 on: July 06, 2015, 02:33:05 am »
+1

apologies if posting in a thread this old isn't kosher around here, but i was wondering some things!

so this thread has been an awesome resource for me as i've been learning the game, but there are some rankings here (from the 3rd list) that puzzle me.  off the top of my head:

- monument THAT high???  that has not exactly been a power card in the games i've played so far, though admittedly this isn't the greatest sample size.  it just seems like all too often you don't have a lot of terminal space for your engine and this doesn't offer enough for a non-drawing one, or it's stuck in a platinum/colony game.

- vagrant as high as it is also surprises me.  i get how often it can be a $2 lab in the endgame, but so often it seems worse than pearl diver before that phase.

- another huge "why so high?" for me is squire.  i read the big argument in this thread over that one, and at this stage as a player i don't get any argument for having it above hamlet at all.

- one last high ranking i don't get for now is baker.  from what i can tell, this seems to be a not unpopular opinion - mic qsenoch sure likes to rag on that card during his streams!  "peddler with money smoothing/storing and without the crazy trash-for-benefit potential" seems more on par with market, as far as $5s go.

- finally, one card lower than i expected was haggler.  i understand the issues if you just want lots of $3 & $4 engine pieces with no standout $5s or acceptable $2s, but so often it gets you sweet deals at any price point you want to hit.  just don't see how this would be barely in the top half of cards.

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #745 on: July 06, 2015, 02:39:11 am »
+1

- monument THAT high???  that has not exactly been a power card in the games i've played so far, though admittedly this isn't the greatest sample size.  it just seems like all too often you don't have a lot of terminal space for your engine and this doesn't offer enough for a non-drawing one, or it's stuck in a platinum/colony game.

Think of Monument as "+$2; gain a Great Hall". For $4.
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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #746 on: July 06, 2015, 04:06:42 am »
+2

apologies if posting in a thread this old isn't kosher around here, but i was wondering some things!

No worries. I know some fora have retarded policies about not bumping >1yo threads but that's completely nonsensical. Great books retain their value for literally millenia, yet wanting to continue a cool thread that is just a few years old is somehow the end of the world lol.

Quote
so this thread has been an awesome resource for me as i've been learning the game, but there are some rankings here (from the 3rd list) that puzzle me.  off the top of my head:

[...]

I agree with all your points, except that you seem to be slightly underrating Monument, though not to the extend that this list overrates it. Hamlet > Squire, Market > Baker and Haggler way too low are especially clear to me.

There's a ton of other stuff I disagree with, but I feel especially sad about Urchin sitting there at 82, below powerhouses like Moat, Vagrant, Crossroads, Pillage and Native Village.
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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #747 on: July 06, 2015, 04:12:59 am »
+2

All of those cards are extremely splashable and can fit into most deck types. If you check individual player stats, you'll notice that the gain % of these cards is quite high among the top players. They're not on the list because there's one or two super powerful combos with them, but rather because they offer a consistent level of goodness in every kingdom they're in.

Monument: Good in money, great in engine. Decent in slogs.
Squire: Unlike Hamlet, Squire is actually good in money and slog games.
Baker: Dominates Market in money games.

Quote
Think of Monument as "+$2; gain a Great Hall". For $4.
It's like a workshop that gains estates to your island mat while putting silver into your hand but you have to return the silver to the supply when playing it.
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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #748 on: July 06, 2015, 04:27:57 am »
+8

Quote
Think of Monument as "+$2; gain a Great Hall". For $4.
It's like a workshop that gains estates to your island mat while putting silver into your hand but you have to return the silver to the supply when playing it.

From this very same thread, as relevant as it was 2 years ago:

I like to think of Monument as a $4 terminal action that gives $2 and +1 VP token. It really helps me wrap my head around what the card does.
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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #749 on: July 06, 2015, 05:40:01 am »
+1

- monument THAT high???  that has not exactly been a power card in the games i've played so far, though admittedly this isn't the greatest sample size.  it just seems like all too often you don't have a lot of terminal space for your engine and this doesn't offer enough for a non-drawing one, or it's stuck in a platinum/colony game.

- vagrant as high as it is also surprises me.  i get how often it can be a $2 lab in the endgame, but so often it seems worse than pearl diver before that phase.

- another huge "why so high?" for me is squire.  i read the big argument in this thread over that one, and at this stage as a player i don't get any argument for having it above hamlet at all.

- one last high ranking i don't get for now is baker.  from what i can tell, this seems to be a not unpopular opinion - mic qsenoch sure likes to rag on that card during his streams!  "peddler with money smoothing/storing and without the crazy trash-for-benefit potential" seems more on par with market, as far as $5s go.

It's worth noting that these rankings are pretty old, and many of those cards were pretty new at the time. And overrating Monument used to be a pretty common thing a while ago, for some reason (I overrated it too) it is amazing when you actually buy it, but you don't really do that very often in the end.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2015, 05:41:41 am by Awaclus »
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Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

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