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Author Topic: WW's Power Rankings  (Read 234659 times)

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Just a Rube

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #675 on: August 24, 2013, 09:46:40 am »
0

The middle-of-the-road-ishness of guilds may be because it's so new still. There's a tendency to play it safe with unfamiliar cards so I expect some of them will drift more towards the higher or lower end as time goes on.

Or it could be that Donald has got better at creating cards so that there are less really weak or really overpowering ones?

Ed
(The again it wasn't that long ago we got Rebuild...)
Of course, technically Dark Ages was designed after Guilds, and Rebuild in particular was one of the last cards added in all Dominion...
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blueblimp

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #676 on: August 24, 2013, 01:33:42 pm »
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Seeing this list (and all the people disagreeing with parts) makes me wonder what it would be like if we did a Qvist-type ranking this way.  I would volunteer to run it, but I don't know much about statistics so I would only be able to order them all and that would be it...

And by Qvist-type, I mean everybody sends in their list and then they all get sorted.

It would probably be easier to have a site where you just compare two cards at a time (and then another 2 and another 2, etc.). With a large enough sample size, you'd get meaningful results. Making an entire 200+ card list can be daunting.
The last time this came up, somebody mentioned a choosing scheme along the lines of: you're presented with 4 (or 5?) cards and asked to pick the strongest and weakest of that group. It had a name but I can't remember what it was called.

But yeah a site where people could construct their rankings using something like this would be pretty cool.
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Slyfox

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #677 on: August 24, 2013, 01:42:14 pm »
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I would volunteer to run it, but I don't know much about statistics so I would only be able to order them all and that would be it...

As non-statistical alternative, how about running it more like an election using "instant-runoff voting".  The basic idea is that every voter makes a ranked list.  To select the highest ranked card, the algorithm looks at everyone's highest ranked card, if there is no majority, then it eliminates the card with the least first-place votes from all the lists.  Repeat until some card has a majority vote.  That is the top ranked card.  Next, remove that card from all the lists, and start at the beginning (with the origin lists minus the already-ranked cards).

This method is one way to combine many ranked lists without using averaging or statistics.  It needs to be automated, of course, but there are some programs that implement it.  Heck, I'd be willing to write up a script to do the processing if I was given all the input files in a consistent format. 

In fact, it might be fun to apply this to the Qvist's raw input data and see if the above instant-runoff voting results in a ranking with any interesting differences from what the statistical approach generated.

(Of course, this doesn't solve the problem of the overwhelming task to try to create a full rank of all the cards.)
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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #678 on: August 24, 2013, 02:02:05 pm »
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Seeing this list (and all the people disagreeing with parts) makes me wonder what it would be like if we did a Qvist-type ranking this way.  I would volunteer to run it, but I don't know much about statistics so I would only be able to order them all and that would be it...

And by Qvist-type, I mean everybody sends in their list and then they all get sorted.

It would probably be easier to have a site where you just compare two cards at a time (and then another 2 and another 2, etc.). With a large enough sample size, you'd get meaningful results. Making an entire 200+ card list can be daunting.
The last time this came up, somebody mentioned a choosing scheme along the lines of: you're presented with 4 (or 5?) cards and asked to pick the strongest and weakest of that group. It had a name but I can't remember what it was called.

I believe you are describing MaxDiff. I looked into using this for my card sorting algorithm, but it doesn't seem like it's usually used to make completely sorted lists, but just to provide preferences among items.

(Of course, this doesn't solve the problem of the overwhelming task to try to create a full rank of all the cards.)

If you have just one person sorting the cards, the easiest way is something like my Dominion Card Sorter. It would be great if this were implemented in a website, which would make it much more accessible to non-programmers.

If you want to sort cards based on comparisons given by many people, you'd have to do something more complicated, since preferences may not form a total ordering -- you might find that on average, people say that card A > card B > card C > card A, which is bad news when you're trying to sort A, B, and C!
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sudgy

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #679 on: August 25, 2013, 02:34:04 am »
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I know extremely simple statistics, so I could still order a list from a bunch of others.  It's just all those random numbers in Qvists rankings that I don't know.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

ednever

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #680 on: August 25, 2013, 12:53:11 pm »
+1

I looked around on the Internet for something like this and couldn't find it:

A tool where you upload words or images.
Then it feeds it back to you two at a time, and you choose which if the two are "better"
If you do it enough times it should be able to create a ranking for you.
(And humans are much better at this than creating a really long ranking in one step)

Anyone know if this exists somewhere?

Ed
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Gveoniz

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #681 on: August 25, 2013, 12:54:32 pm »
+1

Kirian

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #682 on: August 25, 2013, 03:32:54 pm »
+2

This?  The Dominion Card Sorter
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9221.0

I don't think it counts if you have to be running python from the command line.
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sudgy

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #683 on: August 25, 2013, 03:34:05 pm »
+1

This?  The Dominion Card Sorter
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9221.0

I don't think it counts if you have to be running python from the command line.

And, it doesn't seem to be a bunch of people doing it.  It would be easy if there was just some website where you could sort the cards, and everybody's ranks count.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

Tables

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #684 on: August 26, 2013, 11:40:37 am »
+1

Something I recently considered that could be done next time a community card ratings comes around - either in addition, or instead of it - is having a ratings list made by a group of the top Dominion players on the site only, making a single collaborative list. This would likely be done in a separate private subforum. The biggest advantage is that those involved could work together, suggesting things that might be missed by a single person, and keep each other in check from over or underrating particular cards. Compared to just doing it in public, the advantage is that small numbers keep it easy to track what's going on, and means making decisions is considerably easier.

I dunno if it's really a great idea, but I think it could work, and produce something similar to WW's list, but with more ideas and knowledge being put in by the other top minds on the forum. People like theory, Qvist (if he returns), WW, Stef and quite a few others.
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michaeljb

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #685 on: August 26, 2013, 02:12:43 pm »
+4

"The f.ds Brain Trust's Power Rankings"
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Simon (DK)

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #686 on: August 26, 2013, 04:58:31 pm »
0

Something I recently considered that could be done next time a community card ratings comes around - either in addition, or instead of it - is having a ratings list made by a group of the top Dominion players on the site only, making a single collaborative list. This would likely be done in a separate private subforum. The biggest advantage is that those involved could work together, suggesting things that might be missed by a single person, and keep each other in check from over or underrating particular cards. Compared to just doing it in public, the advantage is that small numbers keep it easy to track what's going on, and means making decisions is considerably easier.

I dunno if it's really a great idea, but I think it could work, and produce something similar to WW's list, but with more ideas and knowledge being put in by the other top minds on the forum. People like theory, Qvist (if he returns), WW, Stef and quite a few others.

I like the idea, and people could learn a LOT from the discussions. Not just the final result.
I don't know how private subforums work, but it should be a way, so only the invited good players can write, but everyone could watch.
I would personally love following the discussions more than seeing the final result.
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theory

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #687 on: August 26, 2013, 05:26:16 pm »
+3

FYI, this is something that the Smash community does with the Smash Back Room
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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #688 on: August 26, 2013, 06:46:27 pm »
+1

FYI, this is something that the Smash community does with the Smash Back Room

...Did I not mention that in my post? I was SURE I mentioned it. Must have edited it out while I was rephrasing part of it ¬_¬. But yeah that was partially the inspiration. The big difference is that SBRers are mostly a mix of experts at different things - there's some TOs, various people who main a large variety of characters. Here, players don't have a really big 'focus' on any particular area of the game. You do everything well or lose to people who do.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #689 on: August 26, 2013, 08:07:29 pm »
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What I would like to see is everyone submit the one card they consider the most powerful and then to make a list of whatever the top 10 results came in to be and then vote on those to see what we consider the best card.
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GeoLib

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #690 on: August 27, 2013, 01:11:41 am »
+2

What I would like to see is everyone submit the one card they consider the most powerful and then to make a list of whatever the top 10 results came in to be and then vote on those to see what we consider the best card.

I think one of the problems with a list like that (and I think someone's pointed this out about Qvist's rankings before) is that they're sort of self-referential, especially for less experienced players. I certainly have a general idea of card strength, but if I were to select the most powerful one I'm going to be strongly influenced by the fact that WW, and several other people who are much better than I, say Masquerade is the best, for example. I'm not sure that Masquerade is the best, but I'm familiar enough with its power that I would believe it is, and I defer to their greater experience. The advantage to a "masters only" card ranking is that I think this would be less of a problem as they may be more comfortable and justified in contradicting each other, given that they have similarly large experience and skill on which to base their ideas.
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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #691 on: September 05, 2013, 02:39:02 pm »
+4

Hey WW --  thank you so much for this list -- I find myself using this page a lot, especially to get my bearings on the "new" cards. Would you mind doing the following? Edit the original post so that where there is a hyperlink to your review part I, II, III, etc., it says which numbers of cards are in which (so like, Part V - #56-84 or something-- that isn't correct, I just made it up). The reason I ask is that sometimes I care about a card like, say, Pillage, in the middle of the list, and I don't know which link to click.
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terminalCopper

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #692 on: September 18, 2013, 06:56:59 am »
0

Here are just my 2 cents:

Quote from: WanderingWinder
39.   Sea Hag
Pretty low, you think. Well, it's one of the more ignorable cursers, I find. It does nothing for you. And trash one cad at a time would neutralize it
This strikes me like saying moat neutralizes witch.

Quote from: WanderingWinder
34.   Soothsayer
A curse-giver which gains gold. This card gives great longevity, but... well, gaining gold is a 5ish value, giving a curse is a 4ish value, labbing opponent a 5 value to them...
For them it's a lab, for me it's a 5ish plus familiar.

Aside from these nuggets of criticism: I really, really enjoyed reading your list, thanks!
I do also agree in many ways, where you are opposing mainstream opinions:
- Counterfeit, Junk Dealer and Upgrade in Top20? Yeah!
- Haven in the bottom thirty? Great! It is often just a cantrip which turns a card into a duration card, which is a big detriment.
- Scheme does so, too - good idea to put it in the second half.
- Rats merit this low position: they are useless without TfB, and even with it, they are often just a trap, as matching with TfB does not happen automatically.

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Davio

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #693 on: September 18, 2013, 08:17:06 am »
+1

Quote from: WanderingWinder
39.   Sea Hag
Pretty low, you think. Well, it's one of the more ignorable cursers, I find. It does nothing for you. And trash one cad at a time would neutralize it

Well, trash one card at a time doesn't completely neutralize it of course.
The player with Sea Hag uses one card slot to dish out the Curses, while the player with the one-card-trasher needs 2 card slots (one for the Curse and one for the trasher) to deal with the Curses. Lookout is a bit different of course, since it uses one card slot to trash something and is pretty good defense against Sea Hag, but a $0 Trade Route, maybe not so much.

What's worse is that a hand of Trade Route-Curse-3 Coppers would yield $5 if the Trade Route was a Silver, which might be important.

So either use a decent trasher (Steward with its trash-2 would probably suffice) or skip the trasher altogether, I think Trade Route and Remodel don't cut it to battle Sea Hag.
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terminalCopper

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #694 on: September 18, 2013, 11:24:54 am »
0

Quote from: WanderingWinder
39.   Sea Hag
Pretty low, you think. Well, it's one of the more ignorable cursers, I find. It does nothing for you. And trash one cad at a time would neutralize it

Well, trash one card at a time doesn't completely neutralize it of course.
The player with Sea Hag uses one card slot to dish out the Curses, while the player with the one-card-trasher needs 2 card slots (one for the Curse and one for the trasher) to deal with the Curses. Lookout is a bit different of course, since it uses one card slot to trash something and is pretty good defense against Sea Hag, but a $0 Trade Route, maybe not so much.

What's worse is that a hand of Trade Route-Curse-3 Coppers would yield $5 if the Trade Route was a Silver, which might be important.

So either use a decent trasher (Steward with its trash-2 would probably suffice) or skip the trasher altogether, I think Trade Route and Remodel don't cut it to battle Sea Hag.

I agree.

Except that, with Steward and Sea Hag on board, I will presumably get both.
The trashers which make me skip the hag are masq and ambassador, maybe hermit and Jack. These all are rightfully Top20-cards in WW's list.


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Witherweaver

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #695 on: September 19, 2013, 11:24:08 am »
0

Quote from: WanderingWinder
39.   Sea Hag
Pretty low, you think. Well, it's one of the more ignorable cursers, I find. It does nothing for you. And trash one cad at a time would neutralize it

Well, trash one card at a time doesn't completely neutralize it of course.
The player with Sea Hag uses one card slot to dish out the Curses, while the player with the one-card-trasher needs 2 card slots (one for the Curse and one for the trasher) to deal with the Curses. Lookout is a bit different of course, since it uses one card slot to trash something and is pretty good defense against Sea Hag, but a $0 Trade Route, maybe not so much.

What's worse is that a hand of Trade Route-Curse-3 Coppers would yield $5 if the Trade Route was a Silver, which might be important.

So either use a decent trasher (Steward with its trash-2 would probably suffice) or skip the trasher altogether, I think Trade Route and Remodel don't cut it to battle Sea Hag.

I agree.

Except that, with Steward and Sea Hag on board, I will presumably get both.
The trashers which make me skip the hag are masq and ambassador, maybe hermit and Jack. These all are rightfully Top20-cards in WW's list.

How well does Hermit work as pure Curse defense?  I once tried it against Witch (actually, double Witch) and got completely smoked.  I wasn't able to line up Hermits (I got more than one) with the Curses very well, and the drawing power of Witch let my opponent grab money and then Provinces pretty easily.  Though this doesn't compare to Sea Hag that well, since the Witch player gets a benefit and the Sea Hag player does not.

But in general I find that using a pure trasher to defend against Curses still slows you down if you're not Cursing yourself.  You have to line up your Curses and trashers, and even if you do you're probably economically behind.  It seems like you have to use some kind of attack to slow your opponent down as well.

Masquerade and Ambassador seem to be the best defense, so they're effectively acting as a trasher and an attacker.
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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #696 on: September 19, 2013, 11:34:01 am »
+1

How well does Hermit work as pure Curse defense?  I once tried it against Witch (actually, double Witch) and got completely smoked.  I wasn't able to line up Hermits (I got more than one) with the Curses very well

I thought the whole point of using Hermit for trashing was that you don't have to line it up with your Curses—Hermit can trash from the discard pile.
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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #697 on: September 19, 2013, 11:36:03 am »
0

How well does Hermit work as pure Curse defense?  I once tried it against Witch (actually, double Witch) and got completely smoked.  I wasn't able to line up Hermits (I got more than one) with the Curses very well, and the drawing power of Witch let my opponent grab money and then Provinces pretty easily.  Though this doesn't compare to Sea Hag that well, since the Witch player gets a benefit and the Sea Hag player does not.
I think Hermit should work pretty well against Witch and other "normal" cursing (except Mountebank), but it doesn't work that well against Sea Hag since the curse goes on the top of your deck and that means you will always get that curse in hand at least once before getting rid of it.
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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #698 on: September 19, 2013, 11:39:23 am »
0

How well does Hermit work as pure Curse defense?  I once tried it against Witch (actually, double Witch) and got completely smoked.  I wasn't able to line up Hermits (I got more than one) with the Curses very well

I thought the whole point of using Hermit for trashing was that you don't have to line it up with your Curses—Hermit can trash from the discard pile.

Well yes, but you can still get unlucky and not have them in your discard pile.  Maybe this game was extremely unlucky, I don't know, but I got way bogged down by Curses and couldn't trash them effectively.   Or by the time I did get my deck clean, I was already way behind.
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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #699 on: September 20, 2013, 05:48:33 am »
0

Quote from: WanderingWinder
39.   Sea Hag
Pretty low, you think. Well, it's one of the more ignorable cursers, I find. It does nothing for you. And trash one cad at a time would neutralize it

Well, trash one card at a time doesn't completely neutralize it of course.
The player with Sea Hag uses one card slot to dish out the Curses, while the player with the one-card-trasher needs 2 card slots (one for the Curse and one for the trasher) to deal with the Curses. Lookout is a bit different of course, since it uses one card slot to trash something and is pretty good defense against Sea Hag, but a $0 Trade Route, maybe not so much.

What's worse is that a hand of Trade Route-Curse-3 Coppers would yield $5 if the Trade Route was a Silver, which might be important.

So either use a decent trasher (Steward with its trash-2 would probably suffice) or skip the trasher altogether, I think Trade Route and Remodel don't cut it to battle Sea Hag.

I'm pretty sure he's not talking about just buying Trade Route and Remodel instead of Sea Hag... Clearly if your opponent is giving you Curses and you're just trashing them, you're not getting ahead. The point relates to your broader strategy. For instance, if there is Lookout or Upgrade or something, I know that I can skip Sea Hag in favor of Silver (or terminal Silver) to hit the 5s faster and get ahead on engine-building while the trashing can nearly cancel out the Sea Hag early on. Then, when I'm ahead in cycling ability due to the faster engine build, the trasher actually starts acting faster than the Sea Hag. If there's no engine to build, then the trashing isn't going to cut it, and you have to buy the Hag. But since Sea Hag BM is so slow, the standard for a "good enough" engine are pretty low.
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