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Author Topic: WW's Power Rankings  (Read 235544 times)

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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #575 on: August 15, 2013, 08:27:11 am »
0

I really think Masquerade deserves the top spot. It accelerates deck quality like no other. It is good in BM, and great in engines. It has notable interactions with the two most important types of attacks (as a soft counter to junkers, and a synergy with discard attacks). Opening Masquerade does not constrain your deck very much, it just opens up a lot of options for you. Flexibility is important (it's why we see Steward so high). The main exception is a sloggy deck, but those decks usually need a bit of a power vacuum to be great, and Masquerade on the board means a vacuum isn't as likely.
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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #576 on: August 15, 2013, 08:42:50 am »
+1

I find the distribution of card costs in the top 15 to be interesting:

$2 - 1
$3 - 4
$4 - 1
$5 - 7
$6+ - 2

The $5 and $6+ are to be expected. But, it seems that there aren't many power $4 cards, with JoaT at #13 and the next being Tournament at #29. This is especially interesting since the opportunity cost between $3 and $4 cards isn't very large, meaning many of the top $3 cards could have cost $4 without changing their power significantly.
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SCSN

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #577 on: August 15, 2013, 09:36:22 am »
+7

You, like most players, criminally underestimate Cultist. Not just based on this list, but also based on a recent game we played where you opted to ignore it in favor of Familiar, a choice which I think reduces your win % to less than 20 right there.

You mean that game where you got cultist on a 5/2 and I went for familiar on a 4/3?

Yes, that one. Being a bit behind in the mirror (having a Cultist in stead of two Silvers is great, but hardly game-deciding: more likely than not I can't get a 2nd Cultist during the next shuffle, which puts you just 1 Ruin behind at the start of the 3rd shuffle, while either having 3 Silvers vs. my 2, or 2 Cultists vs. my 1) is no reason to pursue an inferior strategy.

And I'm not sure why you think my well-reasoned post deserved such a snarky/sarcastic response. I thought you liked people citing evidence for their claims and supplying the logic behind their beliefs.
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Powerman

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #578 on: August 15, 2013, 10:36:20 am »
+1

The interaction I am currently most interested by is Ill-Gotten Gains VS Cultist.  Cultist might be faster on average, but the problem is IGG curses fast enough that it normally eliminates most of the labbing of the Cultists, and then 3 piles are out (IGG, Curse, Ruins).  I've only played 3 games with these 2 cards, but they have all hinged more on the IGG than on Cultist.  I thiiiink the best strategy is (absent other important cards) buy 1 Cultist (to make sure you don't lose ruins 10-0), then IGG Rush.  But, I don't know.

Thoughts on IGG vs Cultist head-to-head?
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markusin

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #579 on: August 15, 2013, 10:37:09 am »
+3

It's tough to call what #1 will be here. I'm guessing either Rebuild or Ambassador will be #1. It takes a disproportionate amount of effort to beat the Rebuild rush, and Ambassador is good for so many decks, though it takes a hit when shelters are in the game.

Goons needs extra actions to really be worth it, although it's still a very strong card when played every turn. KC needs other actions, but can usually do something neat. Can't say for sure if Mountebank and Witch will make the top 10.

Rebuild and Ambassador ended up being the top 2 cards. Oracle power.
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markusin

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #580 on: August 15, 2013, 10:58:10 am »
0

So anyway, this was a great endeavor and a fun ride while it lasted. Thanks WW.

Now about Masquerade, I'm thinking it should either be #1, or behind Rebuild. It's just that Ambassador really does get weaker in shelter games. For Masquerade, I think it's worth noting that the pass-a-card think can be good for you whenever your opponent goes for a really thin deck, not just when you play a discard attack before. I only remember winning one game where I didn't get Masquerade but my opponent did, but that was a game where there was no real engine potential and my opponent didn't open with it (we both got 5/2). Then again, that's the only game I remember where I even ignored Masquerade. I think, when going for Masquerade, it's key to open with it.

Also, I'm finding it hard to justify Witch over cultist. I remember reading that, in the simulator, Witch against Cultist wins a bit more often. Still, in most games the speed at which Cultist junks is more devastating, because it forces you to get your act together really quickly. And then if you don't retaliate with a junker of your own, powerful Cultist chains are very likely to go off.
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GendoIkari

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #581 on: August 15, 2013, 10:58:59 am »
+7

It's tough to call what #1 will be here. I'm guessing either Rebuild or Ambassador will be #1. It takes a disproportionate amount of effort to beat the Rebuild rush, and Ambassador is good for so many decks, though it takes a hit when shelters are in the game.

Goons needs extra actions to really be worth it, although it's still a very strong card when played every turn. KC needs other actions, but can usually do something neat. Can't say for sure if Mountebank and Witch will make the top 10.

Rebuild and Ambassador ended up being the top 2 cards. Oracle power.

No, Oracle was #90.
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Obi Wan Bonogi

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #582 on: August 15, 2013, 11:13:20 am »
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Wow, Ambassador at number one!  Brings back memories of a classic WW snarky comment to me when I said Ambassador was the best card, back when I joined the board in spring of 2012.  I thought his reply meant that he disagreed with my assessment that Ambassador was the most powerful card, but I guess he was just using the opportunity to be surly about the stats I brought up. 

For its cost it is by far the most powerful card in dominion.  You could make a case for it costing 5 buy I think 4 would be reasonable.  You can almost never win if you fall behind in the ambassador fight.  For this reason two ambassadors is essential and the amb/amb open is so strong.  It should be the supreme priority on almost all boards it appears.  Figuring out when you amb two coppers isntead of a single estate to catch up with an amb of two estates later is very substantial when it works. 

Ambassador is my highest %+ card at 98.5 and my winrate when ambassador is available is higher than any other card with 1.48 ± 0.09 over 400 games. 
You play way too many colony games.

I thought the statistics were relevant and interesting, to see my highest gained card was also my highest winning rate card in a thread about that card, regardless of how many Colony games I played.   I remember that after this thread I looked around CouncilRoom and saw that WW had one of the lowest gain%s of any of the top players for Ambassador.  So for that reason I am surprised to see Ambassador capture the top spot.


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Stealth Tomato

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #583 on: August 15, 2013, 11:19:02 am »
+1

Yeah, the one problem I have with this is Witch over Cultist. Cultist is simply overpowering and incredibly fast. Dealing with one Curse per turn is doable... 2-3 Ruins per turn will just wreck you before you can even begin to deal with them. And then you get an on-trash bonus if there's trash-for-benefit in the kingdom. The chaining also makes them much less dead when the Ruins are out.

SheCantSayNo mentioned that two Ruins are worse than a Curse... I think that's a criminal understatement. I'd say it's closer to 3:2 or 4:3. Stack up a bunch of Ruins and you will lose, and Cultist makes it very, very easy to stack up a bunch of Ruins.

tl;dr non-terminal junkers are ungodly sort of powerful, to the point where this is the first one that's been printed without Potion in the cost.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2013, 02:00:45 pm by Stealth Tomato »
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Powerman

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #584 on: August 15, 2013, 11:24:30 am »
+4

I simply cannot see Steward at #6.  Ahead of Goons, Witch, King's Court, and Cultist.
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sudgy

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #585 on: August 15, 2013, 01:49:31 pm »
0

A few things I probably would change, are:

1. Not have Steward so high.  It's good but I don't think it's that good.
2. Have Cultist above Witch.  I've been on the giving and receiving end of Cultist chains and Witches, and the Cultist chains are a lot worse.
3. Have Rebuild at the top.  That card is ridiculous.  Every time I've gone for it and my opponent hasn't, I've won.
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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #586 on: August 15, 2013, 02:06:40 pm »
+6

My personal top 11 was:

Tier 1
Rebuild - It's broken and I have no idea how this got through playtesting.  Maybe the biggest oversight in Dominion's design.
Chapel - I'm still a believer, I guess.

Tier 2
Ambassador
Masquerade
Mountebank
Wharf
Witch

Tier 3
Goons
Governor
Hunting Party
King's Court

I still think Cultist is overrated (not by WW but by people saying it's better than Witch/MBank).  I don't agree with Steward being in the top 10, but it's definitely better than it's often given credit.  Doctor's the most overrated card on WW's list but he admits that so we're cool.  And just to counter any arguments in advance so I don't have to reply to them: No, you're wrong.  No, you are.  Wanna fight me on it?  Ouch, quit it, man! 

Thanks for compiling the list, WW.  It's great to see someone finish an epic project.
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Stealth Tomato

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #587 on: August 15, 2013, 02:13:42 pm »
+1

I simply cannot see Steward at #6.  Ahead of Goons, Witch, King's Court, and Cultist.

I love Steward at 6. Love love love it. Steward/Steward is one of only a few viable two-copy openings, and possibly the only one that could be considered strong. (The other four cards I might open two copies of are Ambassador, Forager, occasionally Fishing Village, and rarely Fool's Gold. Silver doesn't count.) (Ambassador edited in after the fact, thanks markusin)

WW is criminally underrating Cultist so I'll leave that out. Notice how every other card you list is $5+, as are 6 of the Top 8? KC is ignorable without +Buy. Goons is just Militia+ on boards without engine possibilities. Witch is ignorable on strong engine boards. Steward shines in nearly every single situation. Occasionally you'll take Chapel over it for trashing; rarely you'll skip it for strong BM such as Embassy on weak boards; but it is very, very difficult to find a board where you don't want an early Steward.

I still think Cultist is overrated (not by WW but by people saying it's better than Witch/MBank).

I will cut you.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2013, 04:22:09 pm by Stealth Tomato »
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eHalcyon

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #588 on: August 15, 2013, 03:07:58 pm »
+3

Swindler/Swindler opening is decent fairly often.
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markusin

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #589 on: August 15, 2013, 03:15:20 pm »
0

Swindler/Swindler opening is decent fairly often.
Indeed, but I think it's strength depends largely on what your opponent does and what cards can be turned into what. I've also been burned really badly by Ambassador/Ambassador openings.

I'm really happy to see Steward so high. Once you've used it to help set up an engine, the +2 cards option is not nothing. And there's even the +2 coins option once you've drawn your deck. Those extra options make me prefer it over Chapel when I'm going for a BM-ish deck.
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Stealth Tomato

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #590 on: August 15, 2013, 04:19:55 pm »
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Swindler/Swindler opening is decent fairly often.
Indeed, but I think it's strength depends largely on what your opponent does and what cards can be turned into what. I've also been burned really badly by Ambassador/Ambassador openings.

I'm really happy to see Steward so high. Once you've used it to help set up an engine, the +2 cards option is not nothing. And there's even the +2 coins option once you've drawn your deck. Those extra options make me prefer it over Chapel when I'm going for a BM-ish deck.

Forgot Ambassador, thanks. I don't like Swindler-Swindler. It's not worth all the collisions (esp. with $5 Actions), and the only village that solves that well enough for me not to care is Fishing Village... in which case I'll almost certainly open FV-Swindler.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2013, 04:21:16 pm by Stealth Tomato »
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JacquesTheBard

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #591 on: August 15, 2013, 05:27:43 pm »
0

Tier 1
Chapel - I'm still a believer, I guess.


Amen.
Long Live Chapel!
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Fabian

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #592 on: August 15, 2013, 05:50:03 pm »
+2

I mean, I like Chapel as much as (nearly, apparently) anyone, but it belongs in the same tier as Ambassador/Masquerade/Mountebank/etc, which is probably tier 1, at best.
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TheKiest

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #593 on: August 15, 2013, 06:20:21 pm »
+2

I think what people are overlooking in this Cultist > Witch discussion is that Curses subtract points.
This does seem like a "duh" thing to point out, but I'll get to it.
Looking at the 1v1 situation still:
However while 2/3 ruins per curse might be better for junking a deck, the Cultist player has to make up the lost points somewhere.
Eventually the witch player (W player from now on) will get the random 10 ruins, but at that point the C player is essentially player a lab deck with curses in it.

I find the problem with BM cultist is when do you buy the gold and when do you buy more cultist? W Player only needs a few witches (maybe 2 tops?) for BM so that opens more opportunities gold for the witch to pick up as well as use the decent ruins when you don't draw witch. If you aren't buying cultist, then they aren't doing the faster junking than witch is. So when does the cultist have the chance to make up for the curses lost (besides maybe getting that 5th province)?

As for how the cards stand alone, I need to point out that while ruins usually aren't good. 2 of them decently helps BM (survivor and r.market) and one of them is neutral (abandon mine).
The a.mine could also take in the fact that its about a copper as far as BM with ruins in your deck is concerned.

Those 3 ruins I think compensates the fact that you even have the other two type of ruins, again in BM or slogs (r.library might help in some slogs).
Where as again curses have absolutely no advantage to your deck: only negatives (save fairground, gardens, and rare ambassador engines.... but that's pretty rare to have that one curse be the reason you win and not something else.)

Long story short: I say witch over cultist because curses are extremely bad. I'd keep them side by side in the rankings.
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Robz888

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #594 on: August 15, 2013, 06:42:18 pm »
+1

I agree with Witch being narrowly--narrowly, mind you--better than Cultist. Yeah, those Ruins are bad, and they come flying in so fast. It's not pretty.

But, in addition to the negative points from Curses being significantly worse, there are just a bunch of cards that handle Ruins better than Curses. Vineyards actually wants Ruins. They are Death Cart fuel. Library can set them aside. Procession can kill them off. Scrying Pool can draw them all up. There may be other examples I'm not thinking of...

Which leads me to believe that, despite the snowball effect being so much worse, and the nice (although not super useful, usually) on-trash effect, Witch still edges out Cultist.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #595 on: August 15, 2013, 07:14:29 pm »
+4

You, like most players, criminally underestimate Cultist. Not just based on this list, but also based on a recent game we played where you opted to ignore it in favor of Familiar, a choice which I think reduces your win % to less than 20 right there.

You mean that game where you got cultist on a 5/2 and I went for familiar on a 4/3?

Yes, that one. Being a bit behind in the mirror (having a Cultist in stead of two Silvers is great, but hardly game-deciding: more likely than not I can't get a 2nd Cultist during the next shuffle, which puts you just 1 Ruin behind at the start of the 3rd shuffle, while either having 3 Silvers vs. my 2, or 2 Cultists vs. my 1) is no reason to pursue an inferior strategy.

And I'm not sure why you think my well-reasoned post deserved such a snarky/sarcastic response. I thought you liked people citing evidence for their claims and supplying the logic behind their beliefs.
So, I wasn't intending to be snarky (and it certainly isn't sarcastic) - I genuinely wanted to know if that was the game you were referring to. And had not much time to get actual explanation down before heading to work. So I apologize for any snark in the above post.
I do like evidence for claims, somewhat, though it isn't the hugest thing in every case, and I'm not sure whether you are saying I'm not giving evidence here or whether you were saying that you were giving evidence. In which case, I guess it's evidence, but it's very weak evidence - 1 game shows very little, and moreover how I evaluate one card based on one particular game vs where I actually rank it on a list (which is, if you notice, way ahead of familiar...).

Anyway, that game, you get cultist/-, get the cultist on 3, and I am unable to play familiar until turn 7, after my 2nd reshuffle and after you'd played 3 cultists. Note that I couldn't have played cultist any earlier than I did familiar here. Now, I grant you, people too often go for a different strategy just because they don't want to be behind on strategy X. But I think it's quite clear that, in that game, I had no chance of winning basically no matter what I did. Indeed, I would have been in much worse shape with a cultist plan, I think - not that cultist isn't the generally superior card.

Also, I guess I should get thrown in jail as I am 'criminally' underrating Cultist so much by putting it at #12. I guess you guys have it in the top 2 or something? Okay, let's just go with witch, which has been the focus here, and which I only have one spot ahead of it, in actuality - which means you guys must think that Cultist is very clearly better than witch.

So, there's chainability+on-trash against curses-ruins dichotomy. Alright. So, curses are just significantly worse than ruins. Apart from the several counters to ruins (there are a few weak things for curses - farming village and the ilk through something like golem) which can be really slam dunk in some cases, there's that you can actually use the ruins. I mean, they're bad, for sure, but getting a card or coin is actually getting you a reasonable fraction of your card back when you are getting junked. Oh, and the 10 VP from curses, which is the biggest thing. This is almost just a 2 province swing *by itself*. Of course, chainability is very nice, when you can get it. Problem is, it's not all that reliable generally, unless you have trashing. Indeed, as trashing gets better, cultist gets advantage over witch. But on the other hand, this is limited, because if you have really strong trashing, you often don't want either one so much - particularly as you have to go deep into cultist to get that extra benefit, and there's other stuff to do on 5 here. T4B likes cultist more for the on-trash, that's a point worth making. And the big majority of other junking attacks make Cultist significantly worse, as you just aren't going to chain them. So there's a pretty big swath of cards that make witch clearly better than cultist and the best option on the board, there's a large set of sets of cards that make cultist better than witch, too, but a significant chunk of them make a third card preferable to either.

Thus, I overall think witch is *slightly* better.

Stealth Tomato

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #596 on: August 15, 2013, 07:19:54 pm »
0

I agree with Witch being narrowly--narrowly, mind you--better than Cultist. Yeah, those Ruins are bad, and they come flying in so fast. It's not pretty.

But, in addition to the negative points from Curses being significantly worse, there are just a bunch of cards that handle Ruins better than Curses. Vineyards actually wants Ruins. They are Death Cart fuel. Library can set them aside. Procession can kill them off. Scrying Pool can draw them all up. There may be other examples I'm not thinking of...

Which leads me to believe that, despite the snowball effect being so much worse, and the nice (although not super useful, usually) on-trash effect, Witch still edges out Cultist.

HP hates Ruins. So does Doctor. Procession is a non-factor. Death Cart doesn't particularly WANT them, but it does nerf Cultist a bit, the same way any other Curser nerfs Witch. Vineyards, Scrying Pool, and Library, yes.

Even setting aside the situations where you can trash them (where Cultist is VASTLY superior), I'd almost rather try to win by 10 against Witch than by 0 against Cultist.
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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #597 on: August 15, 2013, 09:55:15 pm »
0

I would also like to throw out Menagerie, Harvest, Horn of Plenty (maybe?), and Fairgrounds as cards that prefer Ruins.  Farming Village, Mystic, Wishing Well, Journeyman, and Jester suffer from Ruins (Jester prefers that the opponent has Curses than that he has Ruins).

I really doubt that the difference between Curses and Ruins in this regard is big enough that the specific card interactions are worth considering in this kind of discussion.
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dondon151

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #598 on: August 15, 2013, 10:13:38 pm »
0

Ruins also destroy Wandering Minstrel.
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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #599 on: August 15, 2013, 10:24:32 pm »
0


Also, I'm finding it hard to justify Witch over cultist. I remember reading that, in the simulator, Witch against Cultist wins a bit more often. Still, in most games the speed at which Cultist junks is more devastating, because it forces you to get your act together really quickly. And then if you don't retaliate with a junker of your own, powerful Cultist chains are very likely to go off.

The simulator was just Witch BM vs. Cultist BM. Obviously, if any engine is possible, Cultist will just wipe that potential away if your opponent goes for Witch instead.
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