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Author Topic: WW's Power Rankings  (Read 234696 times)

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WanderingWinder

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #525 on: August 13, 2013, 06:05:10 pm »
+3

26.   Border Village
It's just village! But you can get your 5 with it, hey, that's pretty nice - you often would just be buying the 5-cost anyway, they are very often better than what you can do for 6. And village really isn't bad, especially by the point you can get to 6. And it has really nice interaction with cost-caring trash-for-benefit.

25.   Grand Market
These things can snowball out of hand, but it's a pretty significant overrate here - it's to get (even in engines, it's a bit slow, particularly as it 'just' gives you a bunch of free money and buys without elongating the game), and often you can just do at least almost-as-good things anyway.

24.   Ill-Gotten Gains
So the IGG 'rush' is good, we all know. And a lot of times it just stomps. But by itself, that would only make this a good card. The real issue is that it's not much worse than silver for BMish decks, so you can get some provinces with it in the meantime.

23.   Governor
This is a notoriously difficult card to play. The card draw is way the best thing on it, but with the worst penalty, you have to be careful. It does degenerate things, which makes it high, but the ability of the opponent to do likewise limits this guy. The traditional gain-golds-with-it, trash-them-later is reasonable but not great, but just throw this into an engine and it's a non-terminal utility card. Important that drawing 5+ times with it is not a huge deal if they haven't set up multi-gain ability - you are 'only' guaranteeing them a province.

22.   Stables
It's a net lab, except you also get to trade your worst treasure (usually copper) for a random card. And it cycles faster. This makes it net better, except it might totally fail. Basically the answer is that you can't spam as many of these as you would labs, but generally this is still a little better.

21.   Fishing Village
Squire for actions now is actually not that good. Bazaar next turn is amazingly strong. Ok, it misses a lot of shuffles, but... such a good card to have, and verrry cheap. This would have been higher earlier, but there have been many other good villages recently, which somewhat hurts the relative value of this guy.

20.   Vineyard
The best alternate VP card. Okay, probably colony? But this is just super strong on any board with a remotely spammable action, bonkers on boards with gainers (particularly non-terminal ones). Fairgrounds is another set of provinces? This is most often even more - okay, you can only get so many at once, but it's worth it.

19.   Torturer
A super stackable attack. Sometimes you can just eat the curse, and in hand of course helps. Sometimes there's no village. Sometimes there's strong trashing. And sometimes there's another curser. In these situations it's a little bit better (occasionally slightly worse for certain reactions/draw-to-x) than smithy for 5, which is nothing special but not terrible. And in almost all other situations, it's ridiculously dominating. You do have to watch out for 3 pile endings sometimes, which people don't always get, but it doesn't come up all that often anyway.

18.   Counterfeit
This card is good in virtually any deck you want to play. It's very good in most of them. Engines are probably the obvious bit. But even in big money, it's generally quite a bit better than gold (at least the first one, often two copies are). Go ahead and trash that silver or gold - the game isn't lasting long enough to feel the pain of it much.

17.   Upgrade
The card is basically an anti-Sea Hag, if you think about it for a second. Okay, not really, it's basically upgrade. But where hag adds a card, this takes one away. But it's also a cantrip. And it can turn cards into better ones later on - being spammable is huge for it, and there's at least gold to turn into after the clear-out. Really good in engines, not that bad in BM (except terminal draw). This qualifies as strong trashing.

16.   Margrave
Militia attacks are really good, you know? So are smithies. And this gives +buy, which puts it over the top. It doesn't stack well, really at all, but most often, you can get 1-2 of these and then something else, and it's quite good. And even a stack of these isn't so bad - they get 3 good cards, but unless they have margraves themselves, you probably don't care *that* much.

Beyond Awesome

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #526 on: August 13, 2013, 10:25:45 pm »
0

I'm surprised you have BV over Wandering Minstrel. I do like the gain effect, but the sifting of Minstrel is so powerful and it is only $4.
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awildnoobappeared

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #527 on: August 14, 2013, 07:20:38 am »
0

We haven't seen Junk Dealer yet, I had a feeling that it would be above Upgrade (which is of course great in its own right) as it's much much better for clearing out Coppers and that, and probably Estates too unless there's some really great $3 card out there.
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ednever

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #528 on: August 14, 2013, 09:27:38 am »
+5

I would definitely have Lab >> Stables.

Yes Stables trades a copper for a random card most of the time. But the times it's drawn without treasure or with a silver (or a platinum!) is often enough that I would take Lab if they were both available almost every time (ok. Maybe one stables the. The rest Labs).

It can also cause done bad re-shuffles if you aren't careful - a discard full of copper...

Ed
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DG

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #529 on: August 14, 2013, 01:17:08 pm »
0

Quote
We haven't seen Junk Dealer yet, I had a feeling that it would be above Upgrade (which is of course great in its own right) as it's much much better for clearing out Coppers and that, and probably Estates too unless there's some really great $3 card out there.

Trashing coppers with a junk dealer, and upgrade, can be a waste of time. Upgrade is really a card gainer and when harnessed well that card gaining is much more powerful than +1 coin.
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GendoIkari

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #530 on: August 14, 2013, 01:42:28 pm »
0

31.   Young Witch
If you have to play BM-X with nothing else, this is the best card which exists. This is of course an artifact of opponent not buying bane, which is a huge thing. But being able to force them to buy a bane isn't nothing, and there's just generally great utility.


BM-YW doesn't win against BM-Jack does it?
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heron

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #531 on: August 14, 2013, 01:53:45 pm »
0

In Geronimoo's simulator, unoptimized YW beats Jack.
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GendoIkari

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #532 on: August 14, 2013, 01:58:06 pm »
0

In Geronimoo's simulator, unoptimized YW beats Jack.

Thanks. I'm just really surprised by this... Jack or double Jack? I mean YW does very little for you; and I wouldn't think the Curses would slow down Jack much at all... I mean, Jack beats Witch, right?
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jaybeez

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #533 on: August 14, 2013, 02:08:18 pm »
0

But the times [Stables is] drawn without treasure or with a silver (or a platinum!) is often enough that I would take Lab if they were both available almost every time
In my experience this is actually pretty uncommon, unless you've trashed maybe three or more of your starting Coppers.  So I think in general Lab is only better than Stables when you have strong trashing.

EDIT:
In Geronimoo's simulator, unoptimized YW beats Jack.

Thanks. I'm just really surprised by this... Jack or double Jack? I mean YW does very little for you; and I wouldn't think the Curses would slow down Jack much at all... I mean, Jack beats Witch, right?
YW does do something for you, it filters/cycles.  And you can always open with it.  I don't know if Jack beats Witch off the top of my head, but if that's true it's probably because YW gets to Cursing that much faster.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2013, 02:11:31 pm by jaybeez »
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ednever

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #534 on: August 14, 2013, 02:14:55 pm »
0

But the times [Stables is] drawn without treasure or with a silver (or a platinum!) is often enough that I would take Lab if they were both available almost every time
In my experience this is actually pretty uncommon, unless you've trashed a few of your starting Coppers.  So I think in general Lab is only better than Stables when you have strong trashing.

EDIT:
In Geronimoo's simulator, unoptimized YW beats Jack.

Thanks. I'm just really surprised by this... Jack or double Jack? I mean YW does very little for you; and I wouldn't think the Curses would slow down Jack much at all... I mean, Jack beats Witch, right?
YW does do something for you, it filters/cycles.  And you can open with it.  I don't know if Jack beats Witch off the top of my head, but if that's true it's probably because YW gets to Cursing that much faster.

I guess it depends on your definition of "strong" trashing.
If you kill 3/7 of your coppers and you've added 10 cards you are down to 4/17 coppers. Which means you will usually have a copper in your opening hand, but its definitely not a guarantee.

One more thought: throw in a discarded and Stables gets worse. Now you are trading your 3rd best card in your hand for a random card.

Ed
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gman314

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #535 on: August 14, 2013, 02:23:31 pm »
+1

I played a game on iso once, where Trading post gave me a really dense treasure-based deck, so I was totally cool discarding Silver with Stables, knowing that I had a good chance of getting even better cards.
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jaybeez

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #536 on: August 14, 2013, 02:29:15 pm »
0

That's a good point.  If your engine is strong enough, it doesn't matter that you're discarding a good Treasure to your Stables, as what you want to do is draw Actions and keep your engine going.
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achmed_sender

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #537 on: August 14, 2013, 02:30:19 pm »
0

In Geronimoo's simulator, unoptimized YW beats Jack.

Not if a card like Oasis, Fishing Village, Forager, Hamlet or Warehouse is the bane, they are all pretty well with jack and some nice against curses
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gman314

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #538 on: August 14, 2013, 03:03:02 pm »
0

In Geronimoo's simulator, unoptimized YW beats Jack.

Not if a card like Oasis, Fishing Village, Forager, Hamlet or Warehouse is the bane, they are all pretty well with jack and some nice against curses

Yeah, but the simulation which is being discussed is based on just Jack. The Jack player ignores the bane, I believe.
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dondon151

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #539 on: August 14, 2013, 03:44:54 pm »
+2

I've been screwed over too many times by drawing a hand of Stables with no Treasure to discard. Lab is a card that I would far prefer in tight engines, but I find that Stables is extremely effective in a money deck that has trashed Estates (to the point where +buy is highly desirable because you'll draw >$8 very often).
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #540 on: August 14, 2013, 04:39:51 pm »
0

Junk Dealer vs Upgrade I think Upgrade is better since you can get multiple Upgrades to quickly churn away your starting cards, then turn the excess ones into Gold or start "upgrading" your actual card. With Junk Dealer, you have to be wary of getting a second or third one since they can quickly turn into bad cards.

Stables vs Lab, well even though they net the same number of cards, they work well in completely different scenarios. Stables is good in untrashed decks where the sifting is big. Lab is better when you've trashed since you don't have Coppers to discard. I think Stables comes out better overall because there's a lot of stuff that's good in trashed decks, while there is not much as good as Stables in untrashed ones.

In Geronimoo's simulator, unoptimized YW beats Jack.

Thanks. I'm just really surprised by this... Jack or double Jack? I mean YW does very little for you; and I wouldn't think the Curses would slow down Jack much at all... I mean, Jack beats Witch, right?
Witch costs $5.
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Robz888

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #541 on: August 14, 2013, 04:44:15 pm »
0

Stables is better than Lab. Usually, Stables is more than a little better (though not miles better), though occasionally it's worse, and you have to play it much more smartly, so you don't get dreaded no-Treasure hands. But the fact that it's a higher skill card shouldn't count against it.

Speaking of high skill cards, Governor should be higher than Stables at least. You just can't pass the card up, hardly ever, and then you want lots of them, and they combo with all sorts of things, and lead to super fast blitz games, and you just get left in the dust without them. Admittedly, I haven't played with Governor with a while, but I don't think DA and Guilds really sapped its powers.
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GendoIkari

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #542 on: August 14, 2013, 04:45:05 pm »
0

Junk Dealer vs Upgrade I think Upgrade is better since you can get multiple Upgrades to quickly churn away your starting cards, then turn the excess ones into Gold or start "upgrading" your actual card. With Junk Dealer, you have to be wary of getting a second or third one since they can quickly turn into bad cards.

Stables vs Lab, well even though they net the same number of cards, they work well in completely different scenarios. Stables is good in untrashed decks where the sifting is big. Lab is better when you've trashed since you don't have Coppers to discard. I think Stables comes out better overall because there's a lot of stuff that's good in trashed decks, while there is not much as good as Stables in untrashed ones.

In Geronimoo's simulator, unoptimized YW beats Jack.

Thanks. I'm just really surprised by this... Jack or double Jack? I mean YW does very little for you; and I wouldn't think the Curses would slow down Jack much at all... I mean, Jack beats Witch, right?
Witch costs $5.

What if Witch player starts on 5/2. Does it then beat double jack?
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GeoLib

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #543 on: August 14, 2013, 04:53:26 pm »
0

Junk Dealer vs Upgrade I think Upgrade is better since you can get multiple Upgrades to quickly churn away your starting cards, then turn the excess ones into Gold or start "upgrading" your actual card. With Junk Dealer, you have to be wary of getting a second or third one since they can quickly turn into bad cards.

Stables vs Lab, well even though they net the same number of cards, they work well in completely different scenarios. Stables is good in untrashed decks where the sifting is big. Lab is better when you've trashed since you don't have Coppers to discard. I think Stables comes out better overall because there's a lot of stuff that's good in trashed decks, while there is not much as good as Stables in untrashed ones.

In Geronimoo's simulator, unoptimized YW beats Jack.

Thanks. I'm just really surprised by this... Jack or double Jack? I mean YW does very little for you; and I wouldn't think the Curses would slow down Jack much at all... I mean, Jack beats Witch, right?
Witch costs $5.

What if Witch player starts on 5/2. Does it then beat double jack?

According to Geronimoo's simulator, witch beats double jack with a random start (60% to 37%). YW wins as well, though with a smaller margin (52% to 44%).
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GendoIkari

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #544 on: August 14, 2013, 04:57:02 pm »
0

Junk Dealer vs Upgrade I think Upgrade is better since you can get multiple Upgrades to quickly churn away your starting cards, then turn the excess ones into Gold or start "upgrading" your actual card. With Junk Dealer, you have to be wary of getting a second or third one since they can quickly turn into bad cards.

Stables vs Lab, well even though they net the same number of cards, they work well in completely different scenarios. Stables is good in untrashed decks where the sifting is big. Lab is better when you've trashed since you don't have Coppers to discard. I think Stables comes out better overall because there's a lot of stuff that's good in trashed decks, while there is not much as good as Stables in untrashed ones.

In Geronimoo's simulator, unoptimized YW beats Jack.

Thanks. I'm just really surprised by this... Jack or double Jack? I mean YW does very little for you; and I wouldn't think the Curses would slow down Jack much at all... I mean, Jack beats Witch, right?
Witch costs $5.

What if Witch player starts on 5/2. Does it then beat double jack?

According to Geronimoo's simulator, witch beats double jack with a random start (60% to 37%). YW wins as well, though with a smaller margin (52% to 44%).

Thanks. Guess I was just misremembering some of the discussion about Jack vs Cursors before...
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #545 on: August 14, 2013, 05:04:25 pm »
+2

This whole "does double Jack beat X" in simulation is of academic interest at best. The problem with all of these things is that there are too few variables being considered. Jack looks good against a lot of $5 cards because the simulated strategy opens Silver/Silver for those. So you're not really comparing Jack to the other card so much as you're observing how much better a Jack/Silver opening is better than Silver/Silver. It's just so much better than even if you just play BM after that, you're going to come out ahead of BM+X for a lot of X (though of course Jack/Silver into BM+X is usually better than either). The opening is really important, and single-card simulations tend to completely ignore this. And simulations with Young Witch are even more useless because of how much it depends on the bane. Young Witch BM beats Jack BM, but Jack+bane opening into X beats Young Witch+Silver opening into X for most X (where here now X is a strategy, not a card).
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JacquesTheBard

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #546 on: August 14, 2013, 05:39:57 pm »
+1

Concerning the value of Junk Dealer or Upgrade, a curious IRL game recently made me realize something painful about tier list reliance.

It was a Dark Ages/Base board, with Urchin, Junk Dealer, Altar, Cultist, Scavenger, and a few other reliable engine supporters (mostly spammable 5 costs). Naturally, with Cultist on the board, it was crucial to look for trashing.

My brothers, both fans of Mercenary, opened double Urchin, while I attempted to play for Altar and Junk Dealer. In terms of overall, typical power level, this might have been the right call considering what Junk Dealer is capable of. However, the essential strength of Junk Dealer-and Upgrade as well-is that they trash as cantrips, leaving your hand still with a position of relative strength, and making it possible to trash in the middle of your turn while still playing through the turn successfully.

Long story short, the continuous discard attacks from the Mercenary slowed my trashing to a crawl. As the ruins piled up, I became further and further buried. Nonterminal trashing is wonderful, but you always have to consider handsize attacks when present, even ones with rarer access, like mercenary.
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Robz888

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #547 on: August 14, 2013, 05:50:38 pm »
+2

I think I would stand by Junk Dealer as superior to Upgrade. Upgrade is so, so, so useful... but just flat-out killing off Estates is often better than turning them into other stuff. Of course, sometimes Upgrading the into Silvers or Villages is better, which makes them really hard to say which one is better... but I say Junk Dealer.
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liopoil

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #548 on: August 14, 2013, 05:54:38 pm »
0

junk dealer is way way better at copper trashing than upgrade. that's why I think it's better.
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LastFootnote

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #549 on: August 14, 2013, 06:04:57 pm »
0

I think Junk Dealer is nearly always better in games with Shelters, which Junk Dealer helps to bring about.
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