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Author Topic: WW's Power Rankings  (Read 234658 times)

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Powerman

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #475 on: August 06, 2013, 10:09:43 pm »
0

In either case, you aren't going to use these as primary villages all that often.

This is almost certainly not true.

But it possibly is.
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SCSN

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #476 on: August 07, 2013, 07:01:19 am »
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It isn't. I use Hamlet as my primary village all the time.
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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #477 on: August 07, 2013, 12:31:02 pm »
0

Hamlet as your primary village has it's ups and downs compared to other villages. Being so cheap and also providing +buy makes picking up lots of them far more easy than most other villages. But it also makes your engine harder to run (generally, obviously does depend on the board) since you need to keep discarding to power it. I think that generally balances out in favour of it being pretty good, since you can use those bigger hands to get expensive parts and the cheaper ones for more villages.

Squire I have less experience with, but it does seem moderately ineffective. Running an engine with Squire does make it somewhat shaky, thanks to the lack of draw, and especially if it's both the +buy and +actions, it's gonna be a very temperamental engine depending on getting enough Squires and at the right time.
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sudgy

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #478 on: August 07, 2013, 12:34:32 pm »
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I've never really thought of Squire as an engine card.  I'll use it in a deck with a fair amount of terminals that's not an engine, I'll use it for silver flooding, I'll use it in Gardens rushes (and holy cow they are amazing at that).
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

Awaclus

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #479 on: August 07, 2013, 06:15:07 pm »
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Squire isn't great for engines, but if the board is an obvious engine board with Squire as the only village, it is good enough.
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Piemaster

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #480 on: August 08, 2013, 01:38:22 am »
+1

I my experience, both of these cards are filler that don't do a great deal most of the time, and can sub in for a village at a stretch, which isn't great but for $2 is just fine.  The difference is that there are far more boards that turn Hamlet into something so much more than there are with Squire.
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ednever

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #481 on: August 08, 2013, 03:55:11 pm »
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Recently played this:

Hamlet/Tactician/Hunting Grounds Engine
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130808/log.516d0e09e4b082c74d7aacc1.1375991390461.txt

It was rough for +actions and the Hamlet was competing with Lighthouse atthe $2 price point. But it worked...

Ed
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WanderingWinder

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #482 on: August 08, 2013, 05:09:32 pm »
+1

Certainly you *can* use Hamlet (or even squire) be the primary village in an engine, it's just significantly worse than village and thus needs more help (the exception being draw-to-X engines).

timchen

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #483 on: August 09, 2013, 04:41:35 am »
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Nobody thinks that monument above seahag is... absurd?
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ipofanes

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #484 on: August 09, 2013, 04:48:13 am »
0

A difference of two ranks sounds like "roughly equal" to me, for all intents and purposes.

I would open Sea Hag over Monument on most boards but later in the game I'd definitely rather get Monument.
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Awaclus

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #485 on: August 09, 2013, 05:32:05 am »
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A difference of two ranks sounds like "roughly equal" to me, for all intents and purposes.

I would open Sea Hag over Monument on most boards but later in the game I'd definitely rather get Monument.
But that's mostly because you've already got a Sea Hag.
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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #486 on: August 09, 2013, 11:15:11 am »
0

Nobody thinks that monument above seahag is... absurd?
A difference of two ranks sounds like "roughly equal" to me, for all intents and purposes. ...

Obviously depends on the board, but I do see these two as roughly equal in the general case.  Sea Hag doing nothing for your economy is nothing to slouch at.

To answer your question: I see what you're getting at (cursing attacks being as strong as they are), but I don't think that ranking them this way is absurd.

So to answer your question in a word: no.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2013, 11:18:13 am by () | (_) ^/ »
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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #487 on: August 09, 2013, 11:47:17 am »
+1

This is how I compare the two (for 2-player Dominion):

PER PLAY:
Template is {Category of comparison: SEA HAG vs. MONUMENT}

Net VPs: +1 vs. +1
Net effect on deck: +1 vs. 0
Net economy: 0 vs. +$2

Basically, Sea Hag is buying a 0VP curse so that you can hurt your opponent's deck by 1vp and an extra card every cycle.  If you have the actions to play either of these cards, then Monument is a Silver that doles out non-deck-harming Estates.  The longer the game goes, the faster Sea Hag approaches uselessness.  The longer the game goes, the more helpful Monument becomes.

None of this is saying that Sea Hag is bad.  I'm just saying that the cards have essentially different functions but in the general case, I can see why WW ranks them roughly equally.
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dondon151

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #488 on: August 09, 2013, 11:53:48 am »
0

We all know that that comparison doesn't mean anything, anyway.
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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #489 on: August 09, 2013, 12:03:40 pm »
+6

[Sudden clarity Clarence]

Monument is a curser that never runs out, but doesn't clog opponents' decks.
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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #490 on: August 09, 2013, 12:03:55 pm »
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We all know that that comparison doesn't mean anything, anyway.

Not sure I'm totally understanding you -- are you saying that my post was meaningless?
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #491 on: August 09, 2013, 12:04:29 pm »
+6

[Sudden clarity Clarence]

Monument is a curser that never runs out, but doesn't clog opponents' decks.

A curser that doesn't clog opponents' decks ain't no curser at all.
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dondon151

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #492 on: August 09, 2013, 12:05:56 pm »
0

Short answer: yes.
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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #493 on: August 09, 2013, 12:07:23 pm »
+6

[Sudden clarity Clarence]

Monument is a curser that never runs out, but doesn't clog opponents' decks.
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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #494 on: August 09, 2013, 12:11:33 pm »
+4

We all know that that comparison doesn't mean anything, anyway.

Not sure I'm totally understanding you -- are you saying that my post was meaningless?

Short answer: yes.

Gosh, dondon -- by that logic, I'd also then say that "we all know" that you're an awesome guy.  lol
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #495 on: August 09, 2013, 12:35:08 pm »
+31

I like to think of Monument as a $4 terminal action that gives $2 and +1 VP token. It really helps me wrap my head around what the card does.
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dondon151

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #496 on: August 09, 2013, 01:13:34 pm »
0

I like to think of Monument as a $4 terminal action that gives $2 and +1 VP token. It really helps me wrap my head around what the card does.

I like to think of every card relative to Monument.

Gosh, dondon -- by that logic, I'd also then say that "we all know" that you're an awesome guy.  lol

But I am an awesome guy.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2013, 01:16:36 pm by dondon151 »
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SCSN

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #497 on: August 09, 2013, 01:23:10 pm »
+10

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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #498 on: August 09, 2013, 02:48:51 pm »
+3

Nobody thinks that monument above seahag is... absurd?

I don't think it's absurd, but I do think it's wrong. Both are important cards because they can have a major effect on game pace. Sea Hag can do so by slowing down the game with junking, and Monument can extend it by offering an unlimited supply of points. The question is which of these effects is more valuable.

The problem with Sea Hag is that good trashing makes it pointless, since you give up a lot of tempo to get it by sacrificing a lot of early economy. The problem with Monument is that to actually get a lot of points out of it, you need a lot of spare terminal actions and a way of drawing all the villages and Monuments. Otherwise it's just a decently good terminal, giving you some score.

If you ignore Sea Hag without a good counter, you'll die, as your deck turns to junk. If you ignore Monument, you mgiht be okay a fair amount of the time, since if they can build something to reliably play Monuments, you can probably also build something to reliably buy Provinces.

I think overall Monument is useful less often, and less critical when it is useful, so all signs point to it being worse than Sea Hag overall. But I know WW absolutely loves Monument, so there's that... I guess when it's good, it's the centerpiece of your deck. Sea Hag is "just" an early-game thing (though I think early game is the most important part).
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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #499 on: August 09, 2013, 03:59:29 pm »
0

i don't think the best way to decide which card is better is to decide which one you would rather have when they're both on the board. that's only a small percentage of games, and one card could counter well against the other, but not be as good (militia vs library). IMO, the best card is one that you ignore the least/buy most often, and i definitely buy sea hag a higher percentage of the time than monument. (but i also don't play dominion perfectly, so take that with a grain of salt  :P )
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