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Author Topic: WW's Power Rankings  (Read 234669 times)

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Witherweaver

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #400 on: July 24, 2013, 04:03:14 pm »
0

...

Plus I think people here just like making lists.

We should make a list of all the lists.

It's going to be hard to put that list on the list.

Actually, it won't be:

1. This list.
2. ...whatever else.

Bam. Done.

Oh, I was assuming the list including a ranking.  Like #1 on the list was the best list, etc.
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Witherweaver

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #401 on: July 24, 2013, 04:18:47 pm »
0

But if that's a list of all lists and not a list of all the lists that exist on this board, then then wouldn't that list have more elements than the list of all sublists of that list?
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GendoIkari

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #402 on: July 24, 2013, 04:49:40 pm »
0

I think if I were to rank the cards, it would simply be based on this one question:

We're playing a Dominion variant (one that's been somewhat discussed around here before), in which we "draft" cards that we are going to use.. that is, only the player who drafted that Kingdom card ever gets to buy or gain it.

Smugglers comes in last in this ranking, I take it?

lol, good point. There would be cases where it would skew traditional ratings. But for the most part, ranking does come down to "I hope my opponent doesn't get this card, because if he ignores it I have a better chance at winning."
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eHalcyon

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #403 on: July 24, 2013, 05:52:35 pm »
+4

Comparing coin tokens and victory tokens is like comparing +cards with +coin.  Sure, in the most general sense, you can probably say that coin tokens are a little "better" than victory tokens, just like +cards are generally "better" than +coin.  Eventually, you turn your coin tokens into victory points, kind of like how you eventually you turn the cards you draw into coin that you spend.  But your ability to do that (in both comparisons) varies hugely depending on the situation, so it's difficult (if not impossible) to decide how much better one is than the other.  Furthermore, there will be games in which you can't manage to get 1 victory point per coin token, just like how there are games where you can't manage to get 1 coin per card you draw, so just leaving it at "coin tokens are better" is not helpful.  What you need to consider are the cases in which coin tokens are better, and then how does that synergize with the rest of the text on the card?

I believe someone else pointed out earlier in the discussion: Monument with a coin token instead of a victory token would be too strong for $4; but Baker with a victory token instead of a coin token would be too strong for $5.

Yup, I made that comparison.
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LastFootnote

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #404 on: July 24, 2013, 06:08:03 pm »
0

Comparing coin tokens and victory tokens is like comparing +cards with +coin.  Sure, in the most general sense, you can probably say that coin tokens are a little "better" than victory tokens, just like +cards are generally "better" than +coin.  Eventually, you turn your coin tokens into victory points, kind of like how you eventually you turn the cards you draw into coin that you spend.  But your ability to do that (in both comparisons) varies hugely depending on the situation, so it's difficult (if not impossible) to decide how much better one is than the other.  Furthermore, there will be games in which you can't manage to get 1 victory point per coin token, just like how there are games where you can't manage to get 1 coin per card you draw, so just leaving it at "coin tokens are better" is not helpful.  What you need to consider are the cases in which coin tokens are better, and then how does that synergize with the rest of the text on the card?

I believe someone else pointed out earlier in the discussion: Monument with a coin token instead of a victory token would be too strong for $4; but Baker with a victory token instead of a coin token would be too strong for $5.

Yup, I made that comparison.

And here's another +1 for that excellent comparison.
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cactus

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #405 on: July 29, 2013, 05:48:04 am »
0

What is the hold up?

I'm ready for the next instalment already....

Kirian

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #406 on: July 29, 2013, 08:23:45 am »
+7

What is the hold up?

I'm ready for the next instalment already....

Many people, including presumably WW, have this thing called "life" that sometimes gets in the way of internet forum stuff.  It's all right, I'm sure he'll come back to what's *really* important to all the forum-goers.
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ashersky

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #407 on: July 29, 2013, 09:23:19 am »
+5

What is the hold up?

I'm ready for the next instalment already....

Many people, including presumably WW, have this thing called "life" that sometimes gets in the way of internet forum stuff.  It's all right, I'm sure he'll come back to what's *really* important to all the forum-goers.

Mafia?
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heron

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #408 on: July 29, 2013, 11:59:35 am »
+3

What is the hold up?

I'm ready for the next instalment already....

Many people, including presumably WW, have this thing called "life" that sometimes gets in the way of internet forum stuff.  It's all right, I'm sure he'll come back to what's *really* important to all the forum-goers.

Are you sure about that? As far as I can tell, being alive makes it easier to post things on this forum.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #409 on: July 29, 2013, 08:07:21 pm »
+4

62.   Bridge
This can, of course, be bananas. Or it can just be a nice way of getting a couple things a little cheaper. It can't be higher, though, because of how often it's woodcutter.

61.   Apprentice
A solid card in most decks, clearing out estates quite profitably or using up the last bit of fuel to end the game. A get-when-ahead card often, so that holds it back, though it does also combo well with gainers of expensive things (mint, BV, University come to mind).

60.   Caravan
Virtually always a solid card, spectacular pretty rarely, that it misses reshuffles so much stops it from being insane.

59.   Masterpiece
This card is just really strong for basically any kind of BM and most slogs. It's just a better card to get than gold, and great on 7 for BM decks - importantly, it lets you get more terminals.

58.   Duke
This is a card which would be worth so much less in multiplayer. But it's very very often an important card for 2-player (well, more it makes duchy super important, but Duke gets the credit), defeated rarely in the absence of a good mega-turn or sometimes other alt VP.

57.   Militia
Discard attacks really hurt, and basically any kind of deck.

56.   Embassy
A premier BM card. Like vault, it's not the greatest thing in engines, because it has the overall handsize-increasing power of a moat for $5, but it's better for colony games and the overall better in engines (particularly in engine mirrors, the drawback here is not as bad as vault's), so it gets the slight edge in my book.

55.   Menagerie
A premium engine card on a lot of boards - really, you don't need all that much for this to activate enough to be worth it.

54.   Swindler
Such a nasty card, though of course oft-hated for swinginess. Hitting their estates is actually helpful for them. Turning copper into curse is amazing. Can lead to lots of three-pile endings, and it's a pretty hard card to ignore.

53.   Stonemason
This may be the hardest card to rank. The play effect is probably down around Secret Chamber - often slightly useful but not worth a terminal, occasionally quite good. But the overpay is pretty tremendous. You would think it would best for 7 (i.e. overpaying by 5), and it does seem pretty good there, but the real power is... on 4, I think. The big point about this card is that it enables crazy 3-pile endings, almost from out of nowhere sometimes. And both effects work together on that.

52.   Fool’s Gold
Another premier big money card - if you only buy these and provinces, uncontested you will get to 4 provinces in about 14-15 turns (a pretty simple mathematical exercise). Here it lacks a bit of longevity, though on the other hand basically any +buy or gainer, trasher (remember it's a non-mirror) or drawer helps it out, so this is mostly a concern for slogs. Alternatively, I think it's even better for engines a lot of times - 3 of these are very cheap golds, 4 are even better. The problem there is that you are a bit inhibited from hitting 5 early on.

51.   Familiar
Yeah, not the highest potion-cost. I mean, it's a curser, that's good. But you miss it sometimes and are dead, and you can just get outraced or dealt with by trashers. Okay, it's still a cantrip curser, that's going to be very strong.

50.   Altar
Trashing a card with this seems pretty meh to me (especially by the time you can get this), but gaining 5s is quite nice. Even going for lots of duchies late has some definite points.

49.   Scrying Pool
This card just lets you draw your deck so very much. And a nice little attack to boot.


It may be a couple weeks before I get the next part up. So much life happening soon.

markusin

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #410 on: July 29, 2013, 08:23:00 pm »
0

53.   Stonemason
This may be the hardest card to rank. The play effect is probably down around Secret Chamber - often slightly useful but not worth a terminal, occasionally quite good. But the overpay is pretty tremendous. You would think it would best for 7 (i.e. overpaying by 5), and it does seem pretty good there, but the real power is... on 4, I think. The big point about this card is that it enables crazy 3-pile endings, almost from out of nowhere sometimes. And both effects work together on that.
On 4? Well, depends on how spammable the 2's you're getting are. But you know, those 5's can also be turned into the 2's you want to run out later. The 5's will probably be doing good work for you before then. You don't get a very large stonemason trashing tree with 2's. On the other hand, buying stonemason for 4 seems quite reasonable compared to buying it for 5 or 6, where the opportunity cost starts getting really large.

I find the on play and the on-buy effect play into each other to some extent. You get an early gold, buy a stonemason with 7 to get two 5's, then use stonemason to turn the gold into two more 5's. It's a card I like seeing way up here.
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SCSN

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #411 on: July 29, 2013, 08:37:33 pm »
+6

59.   Masterpiece
This card is just really strong for basically any kind of BM and most slogs. It's just a better card to get than gold, and great on 7 for BM decks - importantly, it lets you get more terminals.

If you mean that because it increases your decksize, your deck can support more terminals, then that's a bug, not a feature, as you now need more copies of a card to play it with the same frequency as before.
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eHalcyon

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #412 on: July 29, 2013, 08:37:58 pm »
+2

53.   Stonemason
This may be the hardest card to rank. The play effect is probably down around Secret Chamber - often slightly useful but not worth a terminal, occasionally quite good. But the overpay is pretty tremendous. You would think it would best for 7 (i.e. overpaying by 5), and it does seem pretty good there, but the real power is... on 4, I think. The big point about this card is that it enables crazy 3-pile endings, almost from out of nowhere sometimes. And both effects work together on that.
On 4? Well, depends on how spammable the 2's you're getting are. But you know, those 5's can also be turned into the 2's you want to run out later. The 5's will probably be doing good work for you before then. You don't get a very large stonemason trashing tree with 2's. On the other hand, buying stonemason for 4 seems quite reasonable compared to buying it for 5 or 6, where the opportunity cost starts getting really large.

I find the on play and the on-buy effect play into each other to some extent. You get an early gold, buy a stonemason with 7 to get two 5's, then use stonemason to turn the gold into two more 5's. It's a card I like seeing way up here.

Pretty sure WW is talking about buying Stonemason on 4 to get two more Stonemasons.  Draining a pile of 3 cards in one buy is pretty powerful, especially if you actually have a source of +Buy as well.  The Stonemason pile can evaporate pretty quickly.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #413 on: July 29, 2013, 08:49:44 pm »
+2

59.   Masterpiece
This card is just really strong for basically any kind of BM and most slogs. It's just a better card to get than gold, and great on 7 for BM decks - importantly, it lets you get more terminals.

If you mean that because it increases your decksize, your deck can support more terminals, then that's a bug, not a feature, as you now need more copies of a card to play it with the same frequency as before.
Well, I shouldn't make it so much sound like a plus, because it's generally about a wash. So long as you are planning this from the start, it's not such a problem to play things with the same frequency as before. It's not really a detriment either. I guess my point is that you should take this into account, and not sit around wondering why you aren't doing well with 1 smithy and 12 silvers.

SirPeebles

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #414 on: July 29, 2013, 10:29:46 pm »
+1

51.   Familiar
Yeah, not the highest potion-cost. I mean, it's a curser, that's good. But you miss it sometimes and are dead, and you can just get outraced or dealt with by trashers. Okay, it's still a cantrip curser, that's going to be very strong.

You are docking this card points because not getting it can mean you're dead?  Or is this just another way of saying that it's a touch too expensive?
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WanderingWinder

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #415 on: July 29, 2013, 10:31:29 pm »
+2

51.   Familiar
Yeah, not the highest potion-cost. I mean, it's a curser, that's good. But you miss it sometimes and are dead, and you can just get outraced or dealt with by trashers. Okay, it's still a cantrip curser, that's going to be very strong.

You are docking this card points because not getting it can mean you're dead?  Or is this just another way of saying that it's a touch too expensive?
You miss and reasonably often and are dead not only to someone who gets it, but also to someone who didn't go for it at all.

blueblimp

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #416 on: July 30, 2013, 12:25:56 am »
+1

I think Familiar is overrated here. Yeah, if there's no other curser and no trashing, it's generally a must-buy, but if there is another curser, it's a must-skip. Against a good engine with good trashing, it's inessential at best.  It can also be weak in situations where other cursers would be not so hot, such as vs a super-fast rush.

Also, Menagerie feels underrated, but I don't know what I'd put it ahead of apart from Familiar. (Edit: The special aspect of Menagerie is that's it's spammable and self-combos, because 2 Menageries plus 3 uniques gives an activation. That makes it feel more like a $5 than a $3. It's also capable of single-handedly providing the draw for a village-less engine, which is rare among sub-$5 cards.)
« Last Edit: July 30, 2013, 12:32:59 am by blueblimp »
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Powerman

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #417 on: July 30, 2013, 01:59:58 am »
+1

I think Familiar is overrated here. Yeah, if there's no other curser and no trashing, it's generally a must-buy, but if there is another curser, it's a must-skip. Against a good engine with good trashing, it's inessential at best.  It can also be weak in situations where other cursers would be not so hot, such as vs a super-fast rush.

Also, Menagerie feels underrated, but I don't know what I'd put it ahead of apart from Familiar. (Edit: The special aspect of Menagerie is that's it's spammable and self-combos, because 2 Menageries plus 3 uniques gives an activation. That makes it feel more like a $5 than a $3. It's also capable of single-handedly providing the draw for a village-less engine, which is rare among sub-$5 cards.)

Definitely agree with Menagerie being underrated.  I have created a list as well, and it is MUCH higher in mine.  At $3, it's just so easy to be picked up, and just adds to almost any deck.  And it doesn't just add a little, with like... anything other than terminal draw BM, it adds quite a bit.  It's no Rebuild, but it's sure good.
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dondon151

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #418 on: July 30, 2013, 02:19:54 am »
+3

Stonemason's on-play is definitely much better than Secret Chamber's on-play.
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SirPeebles

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #419 on: July 30, 2013, 12:28:41 pm »
0

51.   Familiar
Yeah, not the highest potion-cost. I mean, it's a curser, that's good. But you miss it sometimes and are dead, and you can just get outraced or dealt with by trashers. Okay, it's still a cantrip curser, that's going to be very strong.

You are docking this card points because not getting it can mean you're dead?  Or is this just another way of saying that it's a touch too expensive?
You miss and reasonably often and are dead not only to someone who gets it, but also to someone who didn't go for it at all.

Yeah, you miss.  Your deck is worse off for not having the card.  Again, doesn't this mean that the card is good?
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Eevee

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #420 on: July 30, 2013, 12:33:05 pm »
0

51.   Familiar
Yeah, not the highest potion-cost. I mean, it's a curser, that's good. But you miss it sometimes and are dead, and you can just get outraced or dealt with by trashers. Okay, it's still a cantrip curser, that's going to be very strong.

You are docking this card points because not getting it can mean you're dead?  Or is this just another way of saying that it's a touch too expensive?
You miss and reasonably often and are dead not only to someone who gets it, but also to someone who didn't go for it at all.

Yeah, you miss.  Your deck is worse off for not having the card.  Again, doesn't this mean that the card is good?
I think WW means you miss as in you buy the potion, don't get to 3p and go to turn 5 with a deck of silver 7 coppers 3 estates and a potion. You went for the familiar, but missed, and have a slim chance of winning for it.
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jonts26

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #421 on: July 30, 2013, 12:36:33 pm »
+1

51.   Familiar
Yeah, not the highest potion-cost. I mean, it's a curser, that's good. But you miss it sometimes and are dead, and you can just get outraced or dealt with by trashers. Okay, it's still a cantrip curser, that's going to be very strong.

You are docking this card points because not getting it can mean you're dead?  Or is this just another way of saying that it's a touch too expensive?
You miss and reasonably often and are dead not only to someone who gets it, but also to someone who didn't go for it at all.

Yeah, you miss.  Your deck is worse off for not having the card.  Again, doesn't this mean that the card is good?

It's the idea of opportunity cost. Yeah, a familiar would improve almost any deck substantially if you just put it in when no one is looking. It is that good to have. But it costs so much. And the chance of not being able to buy it turn 3/4 is a part of that cost. Having a dead potion around (assuming no other alchemy cards) is a part of that cost. Not buying a silver or whatever slows down your deck acceleration in the early game, and that's a huge part of its cost. I think the only reason familiar can be as high as it is, is because of how strong the on play effect is. But the opportunity cost keeps it from making it elite.
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cactus

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #422 on: July 31, 2013, 09:14:52 am »
+4

What is the hold up?

I'm ready for the next instalment already....

Many people, including presumably WW, have this thing called "life" that sometimes gets in the way of internet forum stuff.  It's all right, I'm sure he'll come back to what's *really* important to all the forum-goers.

A life outside of these forums....? Riiiiiiiiight.... we'll just keep telling ourselves that shall we...?

Stealth Tomato

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #423 on: July 31, 2013, 04:00:53 pm »
+4

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Witherweaver

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #424 on: July 31, 2013, 05:13:54 pm »
+1

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