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[Warfreak2]

I still believe coin tokens, other than in ridiculously large quantities (i.e., your whole economy isn't just coin tokens...) are better than VP tokens. I mean, you can just play an otherwise-identical strategy, only using coin tokens to improve the VP you are already buying, on the condition that you get more than 1 VP per token; at $7 each token is 3VP, 1.5VP each at $6, 2VP each at $4. In Colony games, each token is 4VP at $10, or 2VP at $9, or 1.333VP at $8 if you don't think you can get a better deal for them later.

In most games, if your plan is to spend 8 coin tokens on each Province, you're doing it wrong. There are Scrying Pool/Candlestick Maker engines, and Merchant Guild megaturns, but otherwise you don't want more coin tokens than you can spend at >=1VP each.

[Awaclus]

I still believe coin tokens, other than in ridiculously large quantities (i.e., your whole economy isn't just coin tokens...) are better than VP tokens. I mean, you can just play an otherwise-identical strategy, only using coin tokens to improve the VP you are already buying, on the condition that you get more than 1 VP per token; at $7 each token is 3VP, 1.5VP each at $6, 2VP each at $4. In Colony games, each token is 4VP at $10, or 2VP at $9, or 1.333VP at $8 if you don't think you can get a better deal for them later.

In most games, if your plan is to spend 8 coin tokens on each Province, you're doing it wrong. There are Scrying Pool/Candlestick Maker engines, and Merchant Guild megaturns, but otherwise you don't want more coin tokens than you can spend at >=1VP each.

This, and they are also so much more flexible.

[timchen]

Sometimes I find the reasons of the list reasonable but other times I find it rather ridiculous. Like, I am convinced by the reason why develop is not bad. Sure I can conceive sometimes it's quite a bit better than remodel. But why is it better than smithy? Evidently BM+develop is not even a thing, and on an engine board say with develop as the only remodel family card and smithy the only terminal draw, I  don't think an engine can work with develop but it might with smithy. So I would definitely rank smithy higher, and all similar powered terminal draw cards.

[Warfreak2]

Develop is the only Remodel-variant which can increase deck-size (barring on-trash effects like Feodum or Catacombs), so you can also think of it as a gainer (like Workshop), it can add engine components to your deck, or more fodder for Bishop/Salvager/Apprentice, works well with Vineyards, &c. BM/Workshop (or, you know, BM/Village) may be poor choices, but cards don't have to work in BM to be good.

[JacquesTheBard]

Not quite. Stonemason increases your deck-size as well, and with good flexibility. I'm really curious to see where that falls in the ranking.

[Warfreak2]

I don't count Stonemason as a Remodel-variant, though that is subjective. It has more in common with Talisman, in the same way that Mint is primarily a Copper-trasher, rather than a Treasure-gainer.

[dondon151]

Stonemason's ability to gain 2 cheaper cards is generally less helpful than Develop's gaining ability, though, unless you are gaining 2 Victory cards at once.

[Awaclus]

Stonemason's ability to gain 2 cheaper cards is generally less helpful than Develop's gaining ability, though, unless you are gaining 2 Victory cards at once.

It's also more useful when you're turning Gold into $5 actions, which usually isn't a good idea if you have a Develop, but usually is a good idea if you have a Stonemason. In the case of the most popular $5s (I mean cards that usually run out and the split matters a lot, such as Minion), you'd probably have bought them over Gold anyway, but maybe there's a Gold gainer or you aren't in a hurry to get the available $5s.

[soulnet]

It's also more useful when you're turning Gold into $5 actions, which usually isn't a good idea if you have a Develop, but usually is a good idea if you have a Stonemason. In the case of the most popular $5s (I mean cards that usually run out and the split matters a lot, such as Minion), you'd probably have bought them over Gold anyway, but maybe there's a Gold gainer or you aren't in a hurry to get the available $5s.

Governor is the primary candidate for this, because it gives you Gold and you are likely to pay $7 for the Stonemason to get more, so you can likely have them both in a perfectly reasonable deck.

[nopawnsintended]

Stonemason's ability to gain 2 cheaper cards is generally less helpful than Develop's gaining ability, though, unless you are gaining 2 Victory cards at once.

Aside from the obvious uses, I have also found it to be useful in 3-piling really quickly.  Both on-gain and on-play effects can empty low-cost piles so rapidly that you can surprise an opponent (or be surprised) by staking a small lead, and closing the game out quickly before they pull something together.

I have found that I like to try to make Stonemason work more often than I should try it.  Hence, I probably play worse with it than other cards.

[SirPeebles]

Soothsayer and perhaps Market Square are also nice gold gainers for stonemason, although then you'd also need some $5 card to spam.  In addition to Gold, both Border Village and Peddler are nice targets for Stonemason.  Hunting Grounds and Farmland can be nice late game targets.  Of course, this mostly just a list of $6+ cards which are nice TfB targets.

[eHalcyon]

I still believe coin tokens, other than in ridiculously large quantities (i.e., your whole economy isn't just coin tokens...) are better than VP tokens. I mean, you can just play an otherwise-identical strategy, only using coin tokens to improve the VP you are already buying, on the condition that you get more than 1 VP per token; at $7 each token is 3VP, 1.5VP each at $6, 2VP each at $4. In Colony games, each token is 4VP at $10, or 2VP at $9, or 1.333VP at $8 if you don't think you can get a better deal for them later.

In most games, if your plan is to spend 8 coin tokens on each Province, you're doing it wrong. There are Scrying Pool/Candlestick Maker engines, and Merchant Guild megaturns, but otherwise you don't want more coin tokens than you can spend at >=1VP each.

I don't think ridiculously large quantities are the only case when VP tokens are better.  I guess it depends on where the "ridiculous" line is, but even a medium amount can make a big impact.  In 2p, there are 8 Provinces, 8 Duchies.  That's up to 16 purchases, probably fewer if those VP cards are contested (which they can be, even with VP token cards).  That puts a limit on how many coin tokens you can expect to convert.  Say you have 30 tokens -- you're very unlikely to get >= 1VP for each of 30 coin tokens.  Whatever you can get out of them, you still need turns to make those buys.  With 30 VP tokens, you're good to go.

I think it goes like this:

- Early game, coin tokens are always better than VP tokens.  Coins let you buy better things which accelerates your engine (or deck in general).  VP tokens do nothing for you.
- Late game, VP tokens are usually better.  When there are fewer turns to come, there are fewer opportunities for those coin tokens to be useful.  As game approaches end, value of coin tokens approaches zero.
- In small quantities, coin tokens are better.  A few extra VP often won't make a difference, but a few extra coin tokens can get you a key card.
- In greater quantities (note: not necessarily ridiculous quantities), VP tokens are better.  VP tokens are unlimited points while coin tokens are limited by the VP available on the board.  VP tokens make it easier for you to get above the magical number such that opponents cannot ever get enough VP to overcome your lead (unless they get VP tokens themselves).

I think coin tokens and VP tokens have different values and you can't really say one is definitely better than the other overall.  I consider the unlimited potential of VP tokens to be more significant than what coin tokens can do, but that doesn't mean VP tokens are better.

For consideration:

- If Monument gave 1 coin token instead of 1 VP token it would probably be too strong for $4.
- If Baker gave 1 VP token instead of 1 coin token, it would probably be too strong for $5.

[Witherweaver]

I still believe coin tokens, other than in ridiculously large quantities (i.e., your whole economy isn't just coin tokens...) are better than VP tokens. I mean, you can just play an otherwise-identical strategy, only using coin tokens to improve the VP you are already buying, on the condition that you get more than 1 VP per token; at $7 each token is 3VP, 1.5VP each at $6, 2VP each at $4. In Colony games, each token is 4VP at $10, or 2VP at $9, or 1.333VP at $8 if you don't think you can get a better deal for them later.

In most games, if your plan is to spend 8 coin tokens on each Province, you're doing it wrong. There are Scrying Pool/Candlestick Maker engines, and Merchant Guild megaturns, but otherwise you don't want more coin tokens than you can spend at >=1VP each.

I'm finding this really confusing to read. 

"I still believe coin tokens, other than in ridiculously large quantities (i.e., your whole economy isn't just coin tokens...) are better than VP tokens."

It feels like there should be a negation in here somewhere.  Coin tokens are better than VP tokens, unless you have ridiculously large quantities of coin tokens?

"$7 each token is 3VP, 1.5VP each at $6, 2VP each at $4. In Colony games, each token is 4VP at $10, or 2VP at $9, or 1.333VP at $8 if you don't think you can get a better deal for them later."

Do you mean if you have $7 in your hand, then a single coin token is worth 3VP since you can buy a Province instead of a Duchy?  But each token is not worth 3 VP, only the single token.  Using 2 tokens does nothing there.  And 2VP each at $4 doesn't make sense.  You either spend 1 token for a Duchy for 3VP (or 2VP net since you could have bought an Estate, so 2VP for that one coin token) or spend 4 tokens for 6 VP (5 VP gain over estate, so 1.25 VP per coin token if you spend 4).  I guess you meant the first since it's a bigger VP for coin token ratio.

Does "each" refer to each time you draw the hand with that $ amount, not each token you spend?  So you're talking about maximizing your VP-for-coin-token return by supplementing your sub-$8 hands with the appropriate amount of coin tokens?

I'm not trying to pick apart your post, I just couldn't quite figure out what you were saying.

[Obi Wan Bonogi]

Most of my thoughts echo stuff others have said:

I feel like I consistently value develop higher than my opponents, but I still think it is valued too high here on WW's list. 

Candlestick Maker has some interesting combos but generally having more than one or two is clunky and they can often be avoided altogether, so I'd say overrated. 

I am surprised Moat is so close to Lighthouse, I think given the need for protection and presented with options of Moat and Lighthouse, Lighthouse would be the proper choice probably ~80% of the time.   Moat is maybe slightly better without the protection aspect, but in that regard they are both garbage and that represents such a miniscule part of their value it shouldn't allow Moat to be so high.

[Piemaster]

A better was to phrase the same concept might be that coin tokens have diminishing returns, whereas VPs do not.  Simultaneously, coins decrease in value as the game progresses whereas VPs do not.  The value of both also depends on the board.  VPs decrease in value when there is a strong source of alt VP on the board.  Coins decrease in value when there is no +Buy on the board.

[LastFootnote]

Coins decrease in value when there is no +Buy on the board.

I don't know that that's true. If anything, coin tokens allow you to move money to hands that need it, which seems more useful in a game with no +Buy.

[Warfreak2]

I don't think ridiculously large quantities are the only case [...] Say you have 30 tokens -- you're very unlikely to get >= 1VP for each of 30 coin tokens.

30 is a ridiculously large quantity of coin tokens; it is also quite a lot of VP chips too, you would be playing a Golden Deck or multi-Goons to get that many. Taking (and spending) 3-6 coin tokens per shuffle seems appropriate; it's unusual that you would get more than three Monuments, and about par with a midgame Bishop or two, or a few single-Goons turns.

Coin tokens are better than VP tokens, unless you have ridiculously large quantities of coin tokens?

Yes. I apologise for my unnecessarily elaborate phrasing.

Does "each" refer to each time you draw the hand with that $ amount, not each token you spend?  So you're talking about maximizing your VP-for-coin-token return by supplementing your sub-$8 hands with the appropriate amount of coin tokens?

Yes. More precisely, each token spent on supplementing such a hand. By counting the number of times you're expecting to hit $6 or $7 (or $4) per shuffle, you can get a reasonable upper bound for how many coin token producers you should have in your deck. (It's an upper bound because those cards could be other cards which instead produce more money, so that you have fewer sub-$8 hands).

[Warfreak2]

I am surprised Moat is so close to Lighthouse, I think given the need for protection and presented with options of Moat and Lighthouse, Lighthouse would be the proper choice probably ~80% of the time.   Moat is maybe slightly better without the protection aspect, but in that regard they are both garbage and that represents such a miniscule part of their value it shouldn't allow Moat to be so high.

I think the thing is that, at least in WW's eyes (though I'm inclined to agree), +2 Cards is better enough of a bonus. In the absence of other draw, Village/Moat isn't so bad.

[Robz888]

WW, you need a Candlestick Maker intervention! It's fine, but not nearly as great as you make it out to be, and you buy it too much in your video games, and it doesn't serve you well.

I think Lighthouse is clearly superior to it. The fact that you get a coin to use whenever is of course great, but it takes up a space in your hand to do that and nothing else.

[LastFootnote]

WW, you need a Candlestick Maker intervention! It's fine, but not nearly as great as you make it out to be, and you buy it too much in your video games, and it doesn't serve you well.

I think Lighthouse is clearly superior to it. The fact that you get a coin to use whenever is of course great, but it takes up a space in your hand to do that and nothing else.

And the +1 Buy. I agree completely with your points, but often I buy Candlestick Maker primarily for the +1 Buy.

[Warfreak2]

I like Candlestick Maker/Trader: mass Candlestick Makers, spend turns collecting tokens while using all the buys on Coppers (which you reveal Trader to). After the Silver flood, your money density is a little below $1.6 but you have the coin tokens to make up for it, and a thick deck which can withstand greening.

[AJD]

Moat is maybe slightly better without the protection aspect, but in that regard they are both garbage

Hmm, really? Without the protection aspect, Lighthouse is an almost-Silver and Moat is a terminal. In most games with no Attacks on, I'd buy Lighthouse without a second thought on a $2 turn, and Moat would be a harder sell.

[WanderingWinder]

All the following cards all make me sit and think they're really good. Which is pretty amazing, considering it's ~1/3 of all kingdom cards...

78.   Throne Room
Basically is village. Con:very dead by itself, costs 4. Pro: actually doubling the action is just oftentimes better than village.

77.   Worker’s Village
Village with the buy built in. Villages want engines. Engines want buys. Getting them together is a win.

76.   Silk Road
Most of the time it's a duchy or better by the end of the game, reasonably often it's 4, sometimes it's bananas. Of course, sometimes you can mega-turn or have great estate trashing and rush dem provinces, or colonies are around, and this does little.

75.   Hoard
An easy card to get wrong, but it goes great with T4B and sifting, and it's a benefit to most BM decks as well as some engines which rely on treasure for $$.

74.   Conspirator
Needs some work to get working, and you can definitely end up with too many of these as a glut together, but cantrip silver is very powerful when it works.

73.   Baker
Tokens are good?

72.   Rabble
The card which with a village can basically stop decks dead in their tracks after they green almost at all. However, it's pretty weak without multiples, just a smithy when they don't have green/curses, and can be outraced. Okay, still quite nice.

71.   Inn
I'd estimate that the play effect of this card is probably good enough to make it a reasonable 4 - combination village with warehouse. But the on-gain can be quite strong, not only letting you play actions a second (or more) time per shuffle, but making sure you get them all together. Ironically, not very good for engines where you play all your actions every turn already.

70.   Courtyard
One of the best BM cards, it's also pretty good in engines, particularly given its cost

69.   Catacombs
The sifting is a good bit like oracle. But with an extra card, this is pretty good. Has the on-trash to push it a little ahead of, say, Rabble in my eyes.

68.   Vault
Another excellent BM card. Brittle against discard attacks and not so hot in most engines (but potentially a huge coin source in a few).

67.   Bandit Camp
Gold-on-a-stick I call this. Gaining a treasure isn't the greatest thing in an engine (hence why I like bazaar a bit better), but then this does have pretty good use in BM-style decks, too, being gold-on-a-stick.

66.   Highway
Another peddler. This one needs buy or gain to be anything better, but it can be essentially the best cantrip-for-buying-power when that is around and you can line these up with it.

65.   Cartographer
This is a pretty good sifter, and a cantrip to boot. Best in cases where advisor is bad - you want your key cards to be played a lot. Falls off a bit in engines where you just draw everything anyway.

64.   Butcher
Just gaining two tokens is pretty reasonable. The remodel effect is pretty important, though, and being able to keep what you don't use is absolutely massive. One of the best cards at ending the game once you have a lead, but also good on the ramp - solving the what-do-I-do-in-the-midgame problem of remodel by being a better-than-terminal-silver.

63.   Bazaar
I believe that this is the best village for engines which you can buy, at least to have (trusty steed, powered-up cities, madman being potentially better overall). But it does cost 5.

[Mic Qsenoch]

Doctor is in your top 10???

[eHalcyon]

I don't think ridiculously large quantities are the only case [...] Say you have 30 tokens -- you're very unlikely to get >= 1VP for each of 30 coin tokens.

30 is a ridiculously large quantity of coin tokens; it is also quite a lot of VP chips too, you would be playing a Golden Deck or multi-Goons to get that many. Taking (and spending) 3-6 coin tokens per shuffle seems appropriate; it's unusual that you would get more than three Monuments, and about par with a midgame Bishop or two, or a few single-Goons turns.

Well, I did say that it depends on where you draw the "ridiculous" line.  So approximately how much do you have before it is ridiculous?  30 seems pretty reasonable to me.  Multi-Goons gets way more than 30 VP tokens.  What if it was cut in half?  15 VP tokens still seems significant enough to compare well against the same number of coin tokens (accrued over the course of an entire game, of course).

Regarding how many tokens you get per shuffle, that's not really a fair comparison, unless comparing the strength of the official cards rather than just the tokens.  All of the VP token cards are terminal, most of the coin token cards are not.