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Author Topic: WW's Power Rankings  (Read 234671 times)

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SCSN

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #250 on: July 09, 2013, 05:18:12 am »
+3

One problem with urchin/mercenary is that the decks that are able to trigger the urchin reliably are the decks that don't need the mercenary.
There's your problem, you should have three of them by turn 4.

The occasions where you want to open Urchin/Urchin are pretty uncommon, the number where you want to open Urchin/Urchin/Urchin has got be close to zero. You get no economic development that way.

When I think Urchin is viable and there isn't another cheap attack I want, I often open Triple Urchin/X. Mercenary also gives +$2 to go with the draw, which is pretty decent in terms of economic development. Sure, it slows you down initially, but that isn't a problem if you can expect to slow down your opponent even more over the course of the entire game, which is usually the case if you can play a Mercenary almost every turn for a while.

Two recent games where I opened Triple Urchin:

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130706/log.505d732a51c359e6597efeb8.1373131404710.txt
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130707/log.5101a6c4e4b02b7235c3860f.1373194618461.txt

I don't understand it still. The first game you get a free win anyway because your opponent ignores Goons. I think it would be much better to go with the sure trashing of Steward. Especially since you can pick up Pawn with $2. Of course it's a nice Mercenary board because of Fortress, but I don't think that triple Urchin is the best play.

Without Fortress I'd have gone for Steward for sure, but Mercenary-Fortress is huge. Once my deck is trashed down, Mercenary will keep giving me both draw and +$2, whereas Steward does only one of those. I'm not even sure whether Steward would get me to a Goons earlier, especially without adding Silver to my deck, what I really don't want here because of the weak draw. I'm a bit confused about what you mean by "sure trashing". With 3 Urchins and one other cantrip, I'm assured to gain a Mercenary no later than T5 or T6. This is quite a bit slower than Steward of course, but I think the overall advantages make up for it.

Quote
The second board is horribly weak so maybe this is the kind of place where you want that many Urchins, it's a lot more convincing than the first game. But you still kind of get a free win because your opponent ignores the attack entirely.

But ignoring the attack can only be a mistake here if you think he should have gotten it himself, in which case he should have opened triple Urchin too. In the absence of other attacks, getting only 2 Urchins is the worst of both worlds: you suffer from the slowdown but still need a decent amount of luck to get one Mercenary, let alone two.

Quote
Maybe I am underestimating how often this comes up, but the heavy Urchin opening only looks good to me if there are no strong $5s/$4s/$3s or you need the trashing really badly and Mercenary is the only way to get it.

I'd certainly skip Urchin if there's Wharf or Rebuild, but if there's a good engine and in the absence of other strong trashing, I'd happily open triple Urchin on a Witch board (I'm unsure about Mountebank, the 2 junk cards may well be too much). You may both be overestimating how often other strong trashing is available (the only cheap trashers that get rid of >1 card/turn are Chapel, Steward and Remake, and the last usually sucks if you're playing with Shelters), and underestimating how insanely strong Mercenary is. It gives you all 3 of Steward's options at once in addition to a Militia attack. Had it been a supply card, it would probably have costed $6.

Edit: My point isn't that Urchin is always a must buy (it certainly isn't) but that if you want to get it at all, you often want at least 2 and usually 3 during your first 4 turns, hence double or triple Urchin openings are not at all bad and should not be uncommon.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2013, 05:50:20 am by SheCantSayNo »
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #251 on: July 09, 2013, 07:57:43 am »
+2

I don't understand it still. The first game you get a free win anyway because your opponent ignores Goons. I think it would be much better to go with the sure trashing of Steward. Especially since you can pick up Pawn with $2. Of course it's a nice Mercenary board because of Fortress, but I don't think that triple Urchin is the best play.

Without Fortress I'd have gone for Steward for sure, but Mercenary-Fortress is huge. Once my deck is trashed down, Mercenary will keep giving me both draw and +$2, whereas Steward does only one of those. I'm not even sure whether Steward would get me to a Goons earlier, especially without adding Silver to my deck, what I really don't want here because of the weak draw. I'm a bit confused about what you mean by "sure trashing". With 3 Urchins and one other cantrip, I'm assured to gain a Mercenary no later than T5 or T6. This is quite a bit slower than Steward of course, but I think the overall advantages make up for it.

Just to make this clear: I'm not saying going for Mercenaries is rarely good, I'm saying that going for Mercenary via triple Urchin is rarely good. You can use Steward here and still pick up a couple of Urchins later on with excess Goons buys if you want a Mercenary, but I'd point out that the main reason Mercenary/Fortress works so well for you here is because your opponent makes no attempt to attack your hand size on a board with Urchin, Ghost Ship and Goons. Mercenary/Fortress is a lot worse starting from 3 card hands.

"Sure trashing" was a bad choice of words by me, it should have been "faster trashing". I don't have the cards so I can't solitaire this to see which opening gets to consistent Goons faster, my gut says Steward, but I could be wrong.

Quote
Quote
The second board is horribly weak so maybe this is the kind of place where you want that many Urchins, it's a lot more convincing than the first game. But you still kind of get a free win because your opponent ignores the attack entirely.

But ignoring the attack can only be a mistake here if you think he should have gotten it himself, in which case he should have opened triple Urchin too. In the absence of other attacks, getting only 2 Urchins is the worst of both worlds: you suffer from the slowdown but still need a decent amount of luck to get one Mercenary, let alone two.

I think you were right about the triple Urchin here! I think this board is a great example of your point. I'm not convinced these boards are at all common.

Quote
Quote
Maybe I am underestimating how often this comes up, but the heavy Urchin opening only looks good to me if there are no strong $5s/$4s/$3s or you need the trashing really badly and Mercenary is the only way to get it.

I'd certainly skip Urchin if there's Wharf or Rebuild, but if there's a good engine and in the absence of other strong trashing, I'd happily open triple Urchin on a Witch board (I'm unsure about Mountebank, the 2 junk cards may well be too much). You may both be overestimating how often other strong trashing is available (the only cheap trashers that get rid of >1 card/turn are Chapel, Steward and Remake, and the last usually sucks if you're playing with Shelters), and underestimating how insanely strong Mercenary is. It gives you all 3 of Steward's options at once in addition to a Militia attack. Had it been a supply card, it would probably have costed $6.

Edit: My point isn't that Urchin is always a must buy (it certainly isn't) but that if you want to get it at all, you often want at least 2 and usually 3 during your first 4 turns, hence double or triple Urchin openings are not at all bad and should not be uncommon.

Your Mercenary/Steward comparison is misleading, since Mercenary requires trashing to receive any benefit at all. Sure, you got the Mercenary to trash, but the junk runs out eventually, and it's a pain to use if you are under any sort of hand size attack.

I think my main point is: on most boards there is another card that can help you pair up Urchin/attack while being more helpful for your deck than a third Urchin.

There's also a real possibility that I'm just trying to avoid multiple copies of a cantrip that requires me to click a billion times just to do nothing with it (while lying to myself that it's better strategy).
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SCSN

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #252 on: July 09, 2013, 10:22:07 am »
0

Okay, I agree with or at least find plausible most of your specific points, so our only real disagreement is about this:

Quote
I think my main point is: on most boards there is another card that can help you pair up Urchin/attack while being more helpful for your deck than a third Urchin.

This certainly happens alot, and I would indeed usually prefer Militia/Urchin over Urchin/Urchin and almost always YW/U over U/U. However, many times there aren't any other cheap attacks (you can't count on getting a $5 attack when you open Urchin, and you certainly want the Mercenary as soon as possible, as trashing becomes an increasingly worse proposition the longer you postpone it) or you just don't want any of the other cheap attacks that are available.

To give a specific example: this board contained six attack cards, yet I was still going to open Triple Urchin/Silver had I not gotten this lucky T4.

Quote
There's also a real possibility that I'm just trying to avoid multiple copies of a cantrip that requires me to click a billion times just to do nothing with it (while lying to myself that it's better strategy).

Heh, I think the main reason I vividly remember the game above is because of how extremely annoying it was to confirm after each Minion play that I did not want to trash those remaining Urchins.
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Warfreak2

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #253 on: July 09, 2013, 01:35:40 pm »
0

Keeping Urchins around in a Minion deck has got to be bad - the attack actually helps them, because their next hand can be the best four cards out of five, rather than four random cards.
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SCSN

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #254 on: July 09, 2013, 01:55:03 pm »
0

Yah getting more Urchins was sloppy lol
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Witherweaver

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #255 on: July 09, 2013, 03:13:48 pm »
+2

Prompting to trash Urchin after every play of an attack definitely deters me from buying lots of Urchins, regardless of whether such an action would be good or bad.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #256 on: July 09, 2013, 06:21:21 pm »
0

I don't think opening triple urchin is almost ever a good idea. I just, I want to be *doing* something. And actually, I rank urchin so low precisely *because* that is how I see it get tried, load up on it early. I've come to think it's a little better if you pick it up in combination with some other things a little later on. But the biggest thing is definitely with other $3-4 attacks which I want anyway.

brokoli

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #257 on: July 09, 2013, 06:34:09 pm »
0

I don't really understand your * system. What does it means ?
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WanderingWinder

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #258 on: July 09, 2013, 06:44:02 pm »
+2

125.   Merchant Ship
Probably I have too much of a soft spot for this card. $2 now isn't great, really. But an activated conspirator next turn is quite nice. Overall... it's a good card of course, but the problem is that it has a lot of competition at $5.

124.   Envoy
People associate this with the old BM draw strategies, but well, it's just not that good there. Discarding your best card can be really painful. In engines it is potentially really good, but you need at least lots of villages and a little cantrip support. With that, you can churn through your deck better with this than anything else in the cost-range (or most 5s even). Don't do it with shanty town though - the big thing is there's a lot of strategy in having tough decisions on what to discard.

123.   Cutpurse
Early on, it is even a little better than militia. And it stacks, so hey, that is nice. A fine complementary attack, usually one of the last cards you want to play. Later on, discarding copper isn't such a problem, but often enough it's still at least a minor annoyance. Really nice against slogs.

122.   Remodel
This card has gotten the best of me forever, but I think I am finally starting to come around. Basically, the best use is turning estates into useful engine bits. It's really nice with good 2-costers as well. And it gives you some endgame control (nice card into nice card, run out a pile, what have you). Still, it often sits a bit dead through the midgame, and it's often not great in endings.

121.   Horse Traders
The action bit is a lot like woodcutter, really, but it has a bit more downside and a good deal more upside. It's very nice for slogs, and if you are over-drawing your deck, this is like free money. Also a discard outlet if you need one. But the reaction is what makes this a player - probably more than any other, it can turn attacks into *benefits* for you; just a lab against their attack, and even better against discard attacks.

120.   Mystic
This card is a fine card, but it rarely does spectacular things for you. I mean, with a little work, it's an activated conspirator. Okay, so is conspirator. Of course, this card has much less downside, but I think through much of the game, it's a bit harder to put together, too. Well, yeah, I don't know. It's sort of average, but on $5 I often am looking for better.

119.   Treasury
Peddler which returns to you. Solid enough, but usually I want my $5 peddler variants to have better upside. Actually, in a lot of engines, I don't even like having this in my hand so much - and especially not great against discard attacks or with scrying pool. Well, still peddler's not so bad.

118.   Bank
This certainly can do some insane things, but it needs some help. Barely noticeably different from gold in money decks, dreadful in everything else, except engines, where it's nice, but then, it should be for $7.

117.   Possession
Very often, this card is just bad. But sometimes, it's bananas. B-A-N-A-N-A-S. It can lead to some very degenerate games where it's a race to set up multi-possession turns and then tank your deck. Still, there are usually many ways around it, most normally just outrace it. I mean, if they are possessing you anything less than once a turn, you still actually want your deck to be good. But the most important thing is that it just kills mega-turn strategies.

116.   Fortress
Well, probably this has the best upside of your villages, but really close to the worst downside as well. If there's really anything for it, it jumps up past some of the others which are coming. But sometimes, it's just expensive village. Also, you have to recognize that not all trash effects really do anything for it, and often they are terminal, so you have to have village BEFORE terminal T4B on this, which is more of an annoyance than it seems. Well, still can be sick, and at least counters a number of deck-trashing attacks, over-hard.

115.   Salvager
Like remodel in some ways, but not in others. This actually gives +buy, which is somewhat important sometimes. And it can get rid of coppers rather than turning them into other bad cards. But it doesn't give you as much coin value overall. The biggest plus to my mind is that it works much better for BM no-terminal-draw decks, where it can help you close the game out in ways that are generally a bit better than remodel.

WanderingWinder

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #259 on: July 09, 2013, 06:45:17 pm »
0

I don't really understand your * system. What does it means ?
If I am putting it *around* a word (like I did with the word 'around' there), I am doing it to emphasize the word; it's similar to italicization, bolding, or underlining in this way, but I will often do it because it's faster to type out.

LastFootnote

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #260 on: July 09, 2013, 07:16:13 pm »
0

So, Treasury. I'm starting to realize that the times I want it most is in games with junking Attacks, especially cheap ones. And what do you know? Seaside has two of those.

While my opponent and I are spending our turns junking each other, our decks are often at a standstill; the good cards we buy are offset by the bad cards we're given. But if I have even one Treasury, the cards I buy during this slog period are vastly better than the cards my opponent is buying, and when the dust settles I have a big edge.
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Powerman

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #261 on: July 09, 2013, 10:55:07 pm »
0

My only real disagreement so far is that Advisor is either slightly or way too high. The card is terrible.
Advisor can be really good; you need a lot of them.

I challenge you (or anyone reading this) to post one log where Advisor was "really good" :)

Here's a game that Advisor was very useful.  http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130709/log.514fd1cae4b0b79c883bbbe5.1373424727922.txt

Yes he kept discarding my sea hag, but it still gave me GREAT cycling and GOOD economy.
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ipofanes

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #262 on: July 10, 2013, 03:22:38 am »
+2

119.   Treasury
Peddler which returns to you. Solid enough, but usually I want my $5 peddler variants to have better upside. Actually, in a lot of engines, I don't even like having this in my hand so much - and especially not great against discard attacks or with scrying pool. Well, still peddler's not so bad.

Having a guaranteed target for Throne Room/King's Court is a nice bonus (of course, Bad Luck Brian will draw TR/KC dead with Treasury, but that's less likely than having it dead in the first place). Plus, Menagerie activates just so much more often with Treasury.
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achmed_sender

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #263 on: July 10, 2013, 03:24:10 am »
+2

Treasury gives you +1 coin for the whole midgame (apart from few exceptions) and that's only nice if you want to you that extra coin. So it's not great for building an engine with cheap piece, but with expensive ones (e.g. Border Village)
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fprefect

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #264 on: July 10, 2013, 12:09:38 pm »
0

Does someone have a good minimal working example implying mystic and showing a case where it shines?
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achmed_sender

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #265 on: July 10, 2013, 12:21:30 pm »
0

Does someone have a good minimal working example implying mystic and showing a case where it shines?

Mystic isn't a card that shine (ok maybe there are ways but I don't know them), but it's a card that is decent in worst-case and guite strong at its best. I mean, without support, if youve enough Mystics in your deck to play 2 per turn, it's a non-terminal +4
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LastFootnote

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #266 on: July 10, 2013, 12:21:36 pm »
+1

Does someone have a good minimal working example implying mystic and showing a case where it shines?

It's great with Scout.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130709/log.50675f6afca284ca61206e88.1373414826404.txt

Thanks to Scout, nearly all my Mystics activated. I think it was worth it.

In Dark Ages, Mystic combos very well with Vagrant, Ironmonger, and Wandering Minstrel. There are a bunch of other cards that topdeck, but that combo requires a village of some sort.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2013, 12:30:41 pm by LastFootnote »
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jsh357

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #267 on: July 10, 2013, 12:22:55 pm »
0

Mystic is better than Silver in straight BM (barring a bad reshuffle trigger)
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Watno

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #268 on: July 10, 2013, 12:25:27 pm »
0

Ok, I admit this one is more Rats/Remake shining, but there aren't many cards you could use instead of Mystic: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130112/log.50f1c03be4b0c837a674382c.1358042496698.txt
(anyway, did I mention Rats can be fucking awesome?)

This one might fit better: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130113/log.50f1c03be4b0c837a674382c.1358114244218.txt
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Witherweaver

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #269 on: July 10, 2013, 12:36:01 pm »
0

Does someone have a good minimal working example implying mystic and showing a case where it shines?

It's great with Scout.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130709/log.50675f6afca284ca61206e88.1373414826404.txt

In Dark Ages, it combos very well with Vagrant, Ironmonger, and Wandering Minstrel. There are a bunch of other cards that topdeck, but that combo requires a village of some sort.

I think also the same analysis as Wishing Well applies that someone once talked about somewhere.  Keeping track of your deck and playing the odds is important.  If you hit $5 early and get it, then you can generally name Copper the first few times (unless you're keeping track and notice that your Estates haven't come up).  If you have a bunch you can name Mystic and use your other Mystics to get the card when you miss (unlike Wishing Well).  If you combine that with those Dark Ages cards (and Scout or other topdeck manipulation cards), you can probably draw with it most of the time.  I think in that game there were 39 Mystic plays and only about 12 missed.  And four of those misses were by the opponent.  LastFootnote's success rate was probably around 75-80%. 
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gman314

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #270 on: July 10, 2013, 12:40:40 pm »
+1

With Wishing Well and Mystic, there are really two strategies to follow: play the odds, or play for what you want to be there. If you play the odds, you have a good chance of getting something, but it probably isn't that great. The other approach is to go with things like "If I draw a Village, I'll be able to play my Smithy" and so you guess Village even though it's not the most likely card to draw. I will often use one to just wish for my payload card, assuming I haven't seen it this reshuffle, even though I only have one of them. With this later approach you don't have great odds of getting anything, but when you get it it's really good. Which approach is better and when? I really don't know.
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gman314

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #271 on: July 10, 2013, 12:48:50 pm »
0

Does someone have a good minimal working example implying mystic and showing a case where it shines?

This game has Apothecary, which really helps Mystic shine.

This one uses Wandering Minstrel as my sifter, which also really helps Mystic.
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Watno

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #272 on: July 10, 2013, 12:51:39 pm »
0

With Wishing Well and Mystic, there are really two strategies to follow: play the odds, or play for what you want to be there. If you play the odds, you have a good chance of getting something, but it probably isn't that great. The other approach is to go with things like "If I draw a Village, I'll be able to play my Smithy" and so you guess Village even though it's not the most likely card to draw. I will often use one to just wish for my payload card, assuming I haven't seen it this reshuffle, even though I only have one of them. With this later approach you don't have great odds of getting anything, but when you get it it's really good. Which approach is better and when? I really don't know.
It really depends on how much the cards help you, and how good your estimate of the most probable card is. Also note that sometimes you want to wish wrong to get a card in the next hand rather than the current one.
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LastFootnote

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #273 on: July 10, 2013, 01:59:31 pm »
+1

I think in that game there were 39 Mystic plays and only about 12 missed.  And four of those misses were by the opponent.  LastFootnote's success rate was probably around 75-80%.

I believe I played Mystic 31 times and named the correct card 21 of those times. However, 11 of those hits were Scout-assisted. On turn 12 I played Scout and used it to guess correctly 4 times in a row. There are a few instances of 2 or 3 card pulls. Scout's a weak card, but I think Mystic is probably a good enough combo to make Scout viable. Nobles helped, too.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #274 on: July 10, 2013, 04:22:07 pm »
+1

I don't see how Bank is so much higher than Expand. The only real problems with Expand are:
1. It costs $7
2. It's not good if you have a small hand size.

Bank has the exact same problems, and in the games where these problems are avoidable, it seems Expand is better much more often.
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