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Author Topic: WW's Power Rankings  (Read 130948 times)

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markusin

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #225 on: July 07, 2013, 10:52:16 pm »
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Even if the extra actions are wasted, you still get the $5 lab effect on a $3 cost
If the extra actions are wasted, you get the $2 moat effect on a $3 cost.

But the actions aren't necessarily wasted, which is what makes Shanty Town viable (I agree with the rest of your post).

Well, not drawing any new actions with the +2 cards ain't so hot. Depending on your average coin per card, the Shanty Town might not have been better than Silver, but then neither would a Laboratory. The big thing about Lab and Shanty Town is that they cannot draw action cards dead, but Moat can. Of course, Shanty Town is unlikely to self chain like Lab does.
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ashersky

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #226 on: July 08, 2013, 02:59:51 am »
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134.   Count
A reasonable card in slogs, where gaining copper isn't bad, setting cards back can often be good, 3 coins is nothing to sneeze at, and gaining duchies is generally excellent. The trashing option deserves some attention, but on the other hand, it doesn't trash *that* well, as you have to do some negative and it can sometimes be awkward to be able to protect the stuff you want to. Okay, can be strictly-better-once-you-have-it Mandarin, too, so really the versatility is what gets this card here and not lower.


I feel like you might be underselling Count by quite a bit.  I don't know how to articulate that well, though.
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ftl

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #227 on: July 08, 2013, 03:09:58 am »
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That discussion about Count happened on the 5-cost cards list thread once. WW talked about Count a bunch there.
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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #228 on: July 08, 2013, 03:15:11 am »
0

That discussion about Count happened on the 5-cost cards list thread once. WW talked about Count a bunch there.

I recently used it (suboptimally) in a SP deck where virtual money and putting back an action was helpful.  Still lost to Hunting Party, though.
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PitzerMike

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #229 on: July 08, 2013, 04:54:34 am »
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I have to wonder about the position of Shanty Town. It seems like many people on this site regard Shanty Town as roughly equal to or even slightly superior to vanilla village. I'm certainly less skilled than they, but I can't help but question this decision nonetheless. Shanty Town is an expensive necropolis unless it draws, but how often does it draw? Only if it is either the only action in hand or the last action in hand that you play. However, this brings up two thorny issues. First, if you have such a low action density that Shanty Town can normally be drawn without any actions, the likelihood of getting an action in the two cards you draw ought to be quite low, making the +2 actions a waste. And if you have terminal actions in your main hand, playing a +actions source followed by shanty town requires a pretty specific set-up. Shanty town, terminal, shanty town... and the end result is inferior to Village.

I wonder if people who like shanty town regard it as a lab variant instead of a village. It seems like that's the better way to regard it. In terms of engine enabling, typically the main purpose of a village, shanty town leaves much to be desired.

In my own ranking, I'm not sure I'd put it above Adventurer. Does anyone here understand it better?

Yeah it looks similar to Village but it plays entirely differently.
In reality it's nothing like Village and you usually shouldn't buy Shanty Town in situations where you're looking for a Village.

Like you mentioned it's basically a cheap Laboratory in money decks, so it definitely has a place in BM decks unlike Village.
I personally like it a lot as a setup card for the type of engine where you don't want the extra Silvers. It helps you get your 5$ power cards early and later it can add Actions to your engine or draw if played last.
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Piemaster

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #230 on: July 08, 2013, 05:27:53 am »
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Count is one of those cards that feels like it should be very good, but as yet I haven't really got it to work very well.  Might be that I suck with it, or it might be that it's not as good as it looks or (more likely) a combination of both.
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SCSN

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #231 on: July 08, 2013, 06:05:10 am »
+2

Quote
In reality it's nothing like Village and you usually shouldn't buy Shanty Town in situations where you're looking for a Village.

I can't think of a single situation where I'm looking for a Village but wouldn't buy a Shanty Town if it was the only Village available.

I also think Forager is really underrated here. Imo it's the 3rd or 4th strongest DA card (behind Rebuild, Cultist and possibly WM); putting it behind cards as weak as Sage, Armory and Count is strange.
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brokoli

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #232 on: July 08, 2013, 06:43:02 am »
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I don't agree with the general consensus that Worker's village is one of the best villages. Yes, you often want +buy, but rarely more than one, maximum two. And since in an engine that wants +buy you play more than one village per turn, the benefit of Worker's village is not that useful, while if you have a farming village for example, having the benefit several times worth more IMO (and there are lot of good +buy, other than Worker's).

Mining village is tricky, but excellent when played the right way. I would put it much higher.

Shanty town is one of the most interesting village, not easy to use but I think, should definitely be higher too. Something like 3-4 places behind the simple village.

I also think Forager and Scavenger are underrated.
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SCSN

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #233 on: July 08, 2013, 07:28:43 am »
+5

Yes, you often want +buy, but rarely more than one, maximum two.

You're completely ignoring one of the most important aspects of having lots of buys: end-game control. Having lots of buys restricts your opponent's options as there'll always be the lingering threat of you ending the game. Conversely, if I know you only have 2 or 3 buys, I can keep building a stronger and stronger deck until the piles are dangerously comfortably low.

You don't need to exercise all your options all the time to make having them a big boon.

Also, Worker's bonus becomes more and more important over the course of the game, whereas Wandering and Farming become weaker as your deck quality improves and you draw ever larger number of cards. So like early trashing, WV is an excellent long-term investment.
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ipofanes

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #234 on: July 08, 2013, 07:44:00 am »
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Anyone else surprised that Mystic hasn't come up yet? I myself don't think it's half bad.
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JacquesTheBard

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #235 on: July 08, 2013, 09:49:38 am »
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I don't agree with the general consensus that Worker's village is one of the best villages. Yes, you often want +buy, but rarely more than one, maximum two. And since in an engine that wants +buy you play more than one village per turn, the benefit of Worker's village is not that useful, while if you have a farming village for example, having the benefit several times worth more IMO (and there are lot of good +buy, other than Worker's).
I understand that worker's village, much like a Grand Market chain, often results in surplus buys. There are a few ways to capitalize on that, especially in the Prosperity set that those cards come from: Quarry makes each buy more effective for engine building, Peddler picks up an economic boost with spare buys, and Goons essentially turns massive buy count into a win condition.Worker's Village, like Scout or Outpost, is abnormally solid amongst other cards from its expansion.

The major difference between these cards, naturally, is that Scout and Outpost are both quite weak without trick-vp cards or duration effects. Worker's Village is a worthwhile component on any viable engine board. It is almost always good, and when a card like Quarry is on the board, possibly even great. I expect a reasonably high rank on this one.
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Warfreak2

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #236 on: July 08, 2013, 04:17:28 pm »
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I have to strongly disagree with Urchin/Mercenary's position; man, +2 Cards +$2 is already a good card, trashing two makes it good; the discard attack puts it into GET IN MY DECK NOW territory. Your beef with it seems to mainly be that it's hard to convert your Urchin into a Mercenary; that's probably because you aren't opening Urchin/Urchin and picking up a third Urchin (or better attack) on the reshuffle. Even with a 5/2 opening, you probably will be spending the $5 on an attack. Three Mercenaries is a good number to have, I think; you can play one almost every turn until you run out of fuel, and then you trash the other two. They're definitely weaker if you get them later - you will draw them with cards you don't want to trash, and they will draw your other action cards dead. But get them early, especially in games where there isn't better trashing, and it's a positive feedback loop not only because more trashing helps you play your trasher more often, but also because the discard attack hurts your opponent's ability to trash with their own Mercenaries.
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brokoli

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #237 on: July 08, 2013, 04:59:35 pm »
+1

I actually have no idea how powerful urchin/mercenary is. One of those DA cards I still don't understand.
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DG

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #238 on: July 08, 2013, 05:00:57 pm »
+8

One problem with urchin/mercenary is that the decks that are able to trigger the urchin reliably are the decks that don't need the mercenary.
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markusin

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #239 on: July 08, 2013, 07:13:33 pm »
+2

Yes, you often want +buy, but rarely more than one, maximum two.

You're completely ignoring one of the most important aspects of having lots of buys: end-game control. Having lots of buys restricts your opponent's options as there'll always be the lingering threat of you ending the game. Conversely, if I know you only have 2 or 3 buys, I can keep building a stronger and stronger deck until the piles are dangerously comfortably low.

You don't need to exercise all your options all the time to make having them a big boon.

Also, Worker's bonus becomes more and more important over the course of the game, whereas Wandering and Farming become weaker as your deck quality improves and you draw ever larger number of cards. So like early trashing, WV is an excellent long-term investment.

This. Having surplus buys allows for rather diabolical plays. If I have $16 and 2 buys during my buy phase, I can go for a double Province turn. Double Province turns are something I'd expect to find on many "favourite things about Dominion" lists. But if instead I have $16 and 8 buys, I can now buy 8 estates (or maybe some other $2 card like Pawn or Crossroads). A move like that can potentially end a game that my opponent was trying to win with a megaturn but now ends in something like an 8-0 score in my favour. Any cantrip +buy card like Market is a good enabler for this kind of stuff. Speaking of Market, it hasn't shown up on this list yet.

I also think Forager's rank is too low. There are very few non-terminal trashers that trash from your hand. The notable ones are Upgrade, Junk Dealer, Apprentice, Rats and Counterfeit *Edit* and I guess Governor counts too. Non-terminal trashing is a powerful ability that really helps keep engine decks mostly clear of junk, and the junk happens to be rather good fuel for Forager in a deck with good draw. A Forager that generates +$1 or +$2 is only a bit worse than Junk Dealer, trading in the +card for +buy. However Forager only costs $3. And sometimes you really like having that +Buy.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2013, 07:16:33 pm by markusin »
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ednever

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #240 on: July 08, 2013, 09:30:53 pm »
+7

I have to strongly disagree with Urchin/Mercenary's position; man, +2 Cards +$2 is already a good card, trashing two makes it good; the discard attack puts it into GET IN MY DECK NOW territory. Your beef with it seems to mainly be that it's hard to convert your Urchin into a Mercenary; that's probably because you aren't opening Urchin/Urchin and picking up a third Urchin (or better attack) on the reshuffle. Even with a 5/2 opening, you probably will be spending the $5 on an attack. Three Mercenaries is a good number to have, I think; you can play one almost every turn until you run out of fuel, and then you trash the other two. They're definitely weaker if you get them later - you will draw them with cards you don't want to trash, and they will draw your other action cards dead. But get them early, especially in games where there isn't better trashing, and it's a positive feedback loop not only because more trashing helps you play your trasher more often, but also because the discard attack hurts your opponent's ability to trash with their own Mercenaries.

The biggest issue with Mercenary is against discard attacks (including other Mercenaries). If you have a merc in hand and are forced to discard to 3 what do you do?
- drop the merc? Then you can't hit him with a discard
- drop your bad cards? Now you have no fuel for the merc
- drop you good cards? Now you are drawing blind with no remaining actions

You could keep a village, in which case you hope for a bad draw. Or you try to start up a chain without the merc and draw him later.

A mess.

Ed
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blueblimp

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #241 on: July 09, 2013, 12:43:29 am »
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I can't think of a single situation where I'm looking for a Village but wouldn't buy a Shanty Town if it was the only Village available.
Village/Moat is a workable draw engine if you have some way to trash. Shanty Town/Moat really isn't. (Same goes for other terminals drawing 2 cards.)
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JacquesTheBard

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #242 on: July 09, 2013, 12:48:41 am »
+1

And while few players would by Moat solely for the +draw, many solid and powerful cards draw the same amount. Ghost Ship, Witch, even Masquerade. If engines are desirable on a board with those cards, village pulls still further ahead of shanty town.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #243 on: July 09, 2013, 01:01:45 am »
+3

And while few players would by Moat solely for the +draw, many solid and powerful cards draw the same amount. Ghost Ship, Witch, even Masquerade. If engines are desirable on a board with those cards, village pulls still further ahead of shanty town.

Shanty Town actually works pretty well with Ghost Ship. When your opponent plays Ghost Ship, you put your Ghost Ship back on top. Then you can use the ST to draw 2 and the Ghost Ship to draw 2 more. This is better than Village. Anyway, getting your primary draw from a terminal +2 cards is usually not good. Usually engines featuring Ghost Ship or Witch have some other sort of draw as well -- either a Smithy-type or Lab-type or draw-to-X.
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Warfreak2

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #244 on: July 09, 2013, 02:16:48 am »
0

One problem with urchin/mercenary is that the decks that are able to trigger the urchin reliably are the decks that don't need the mercenary.
There's your problem, you should have three of them by turn 4.

The biggest issue with Mercenary is against discard attacks (including other Mercenaries).
Indeed! The "other Mercenaries" part is exactly the deal; you want to get your Mercenaries first, so your opponent can't trash effectively, and also can't attack you effectively. And if you have it earlier, discarding your "good" cards doesn't hurt so much because the best two other cards in your hand probably include a Copper anyway, and drawing dead isn't such a big deal either because on average you draw a Copper. Mercenary is primarily a trasher; if you buy Chapel late, then you'll think Chapel is bad, too.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #245 on: July 09, 2013, 02:35:38 am »
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One problem with urchin/mercenary is that the decks that are able to trigger the urchin reliably are the decks that don't need the mercenary.
There's your problem, you should have three of them by turn 4.

The occasions where you want to open Urchin/Urchin are pretty uncommon, the number where you want to open Urchin/Urchin/Urchin has got be close to zero. You get no economic development that way.

I do agree with you that Mercenary is being underrated here. It's still a great advantage to be the person playing the discard attack most turns. But it's not being underrated by very much. Mercenary is a really awkward card to get into a deck and use effectively, so it's hard to call this a strong card.
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JacquesTheBard

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #246 on: July 09, 2013, 02:56:10 am »
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I'm still skeptical about Shanty Town in general, but HiveMindEmulator has a good point about ghost ship. Does this mean that Shanty Town synergizes with deck control effects? It's likely strongest when you have actions in the top 2 cards of your deck.
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SCSN

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #247 on: July 09, 2013, 03:20:15 am »
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One problem with urchin/mercenary is that the decks that are able to trigger the urchin reliably are the decks that don't need the mercenary.
There's your problem, you should have three of them by turn 4.

The occasions where you want to open Urchin/Urchin are pretty uncommon, the number where you want to open Urchin/Urchin/Urchin has got be close to zero. You get no economic development that way.

When I think Urchin is viable and there isn't another cheap attack I want, I often open Triple Urchin/X. Mercenary also gives +$2 to go with the draw, which is pretty decent in terms of economic development. Sure, it slows you down initially, but that isn't a problem if you can expect to slow down your opponent even more over the course of the entire game, which is usually the case if you can play a Mercenary almost every turn for a while.

Two recent games where I opened Triple Urchin:

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130706/log.505d732a51c359e6597efeb8.1373131404710.txt
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130707/log.5101a6c4e4b02b7235c3860f.1373194618461.txt
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #248 on: July 09, 2013, 03:51:57 am »
+3

One problem with urchin/mercenary is that the decks that are able to trigger the urchin reliably are the decks that don't need the mercenary.
There's your problem, you should have three of them by turn 4.

The occasions where you want to open Urchin/Urchin are pretty uncommon, the number where you want to open Urchin/Urchin/Urchin has got be close to zero. You get no economic development that way.

When I think Urchin is viable and there isn't another cheap attack I want, I often open Triple Urchin/X. Mercenary also gives +$2 to go with the draw, which is pretty decent in terms of economic development. Sure, it slows you down initially, but that isn't a problem if you can expect to slow down your opponent even more over the course of the entire game, which is usually the case if you can play a Mercenary almost every turn for a while.

Two recent games where I opened Triple Urchin:

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130706/log.505d732a51c359e6597efeb8.1373131404710.txt
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130707/log.5101a6c4e4b02b7235c3860f.1373194618461.txt

I don't understand it still. The first game you get a free win anyway because your opponent ignores Goons. I think it would be much better to go with the sure trashing of Steward. Especially since you can pick up Pawn with $2. Of course it's a nice Mercenary board because of Fortress, but I don't think that triple Urchin is the best play.

The second board is horribly weak so maybe this is the kind of place where you want that many Urchins, it's a lot more convincing than the first game. But you still kind of get a free win because your opponent ignores the attack entirely.

Maybe I am underestimating how often this comes up, but the heavy Urchin opening only looks good to me if there are no strong $5s/$4s/$3s or you need the trashing really badly and Mercenary is the only way to get it.
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Warfreak2

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #249 on: July 09, 2013, 04:41:19 am »
+1

I think losing ~5 turns buying and then connecting Urchins is a small price to pay. Compare with Chapel, you will spend about 4 turns on buying Chapel and then trashing with it, and it's one of the best cards in the game. Mercenary gives you $ while you trash, so later turns spent trashing aren't wasted, you can at least get a Silver, which is probably what you were doing in between Chapel plays. And as SCSN says, it's an attack, it slows your opponent down too.

OK, Steward can compete, I can't deny that - Steward is a pretty good card! And of course you should take Chapel over Urchin for sure. But other trashers that WW ranked similarly - Loan, Trading Post, Lookout, Forager (actually I like Forager a lot, I think WW underrated it too) - I'm never going to skip Urchin in favour of those.
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