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Author Topic: WW's Power Rankings  (Read 234690 times)

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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #125 on: July 03, 2013, 11:53:49 am »
+3

Okay, so this section is I think where the real discussion starts....

184. Tribute:
So you explain all the bad stuff about this card, but yet have it ahead of 20 other cards. In this section, don't you have to have something good to say about a card? The thing is that the best benefit is +Cards, but that's the hardest one to get. Without alt-VP cards, your opponent doesn't have a lot of victory cards in the deck, so then you're just getting Harvest... This card is pretty-much useless unless (1) your opponent is greening early (usually due to alt-VP cards), or (2), you are both going action-heavy, relying on Tributes for +actions.

183. Chancellor:
The problem is that there is almost always a more useful terminal, so the opportunity cost of 'I can't play other terminals' is actually pretty high.

181. Haven:
This one I agree with you, but I decided to write something anyway just to clarify the argument. Haven has 2 uses, in my mind: (1) if you can overdraw your deck, you can save a Scrying Pool or Village or whatever for next turn to add reliability, and (2) it lets you play cards that need to line up with other cards (like Coppersmith or Baron) in a non-engine deck. In (1), well, this is probably not really a huge impact. Often if you can draw your whole deck, you have enough reliability that it just doesn't matter all that much. And (2) just turns bad strategies into acceptible ones, not actually good ones. So it's pretty meh.

179. Moneylender:
This, I think, is a clear over-reaction to the general over-rating of Moneylender. Yeah Moneylender has tended to be overrated because back in base set it was the second-best trasher. Now there's just too many other good trashers that it's not that good. But it's sure a heck of a lot better than 179th... I disagree with your statement that "it tends to be a 'my engine is a little bit better' card rather than a 'I can engine now card'". I think there are plenty of situations where being able to trash your starting Copper does make the difference between a viable engine and a non-viable engine. Sure it can't make an engine by itself, but most cards can't. Moneylender is at least a middle-of-the-road sub-$5 card.

177. Bureaucrat:
This might be around the right neighborhood for this card, but I think the wording could be a little better. It's good against slogs, since you have green to hit. You can still actually play Bureaucrat in an engine -- just don't open with it.

174. Black Market:
Way underrated here I think. By about as much an Moneylender. It's just such a beast in engines, giving you so many things you can add in. Usually engines want the have an attack to slow down non-engine strategies and get an edge over other engines without attack, but the Black Market deck does better -- it gives you a huge wealth of attacks (provided you can cycle well enough to fish them out and get to play them without multiple copies). You can usually pick up multiple kinds of attacks to really shut down your opponent.
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Obi Wan Bonogi

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #126 on: July 03, 2013, 12:03:06 pm »
+1

Ok, a few more nitpicks:

I have to stand up here for one of my pet favorite cards.  HAVEN!  It doesn't deserve to be in the dumpster next to Tribute and Bureaucrat! 

Black Market is indeed hard to rate, but I imagine it would be higher if I had a list.  I probably overrate Moneylender but I can't see how it would be considered inferior to Bureaucrat. 
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theory

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #127 on: July 03, 2013, 03:57:04 pm »
+3

BTW, WW, I suggest linking in your OP each of your further posts in this topic.
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ednever

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #128 on: July 03, 2013, 04:40:09 pm »
+1

181. Haven:
This one I agree with you, but I decided to write something anyway just to clarify the argument. Haven has 2 uses, in my mind: (1) if you can overdraw your deck, you can save a Scrying Pool or Village or whatever for next turn to add reliability, and (2) it lets you play cards that need to line up with other cards (like Coppersmith or Baron) in a non-engine deck. In (1), well, this is probably not really a huge impact. Often if you can draw your whole deck, you have enough reliability that it just doesn't matter all that much. And (2) just turns bad strategies into acceptible ones, not actually good ones. So it's pretty meh.

I know it's only one combo, but it's worth mentioning Haven/Crossroads. It may be my favorite combo these days. The fact it's a pretty ultimate defense against Ambassador makes it even better.
Mentioned above, it also helps make all sorts of other engines resistant to bad luck. Got a Village/Wharf thing going, just save a Village every turn just in case you get a bad draw.

It won't turn a losing strategy into a winning one, but I know of no other card that does a better job of turning a winning strategy into a winning-er strategy (i.e., going from a 70% win probability to a 90% win probability)

Ed
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WanderingWinder

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #129 on: July 03, 2013, 05:07:52 pm »
+3

172.   Cache
This is a card that most of the time is a touch better than silver for Big Money strategies, which isn't really hot for $5. But it beats gold in lots of slogs, so that's something. And it has good synergies with all your copper-loving cards. On top of this, it works well with Trader and is a cheaper gold if you have watchtower in-hand.

171.   Band of Misfits
Another one that's hard to evaluate. But the best 4-or-cheaper on the board, even when you get to pick the situation, often loses out to another 5-cost. That it can't be any really key cheap cards for long really really hurts this. But it has so much versatility that it can't be *that* bad. Probably it's best where there's lots of mediocre 3s-4s and at least some cantrip, or where you can use at as *either* smithy or village for an engine.

170.   Mandarin
Just the on-play effect here would have this way way down the list. But it's actually a pretty key card for giving longevity to Big Money decks because of the on-gain, and it's not the worst thing ever in those decks once you have gained it. Also has some combos with HoP and counterfeit.

169.   Counting House
You probably think I am mad here. Well, it's generally not worth it, but when it is, in can be VERY strong. The two best cases by far are against mountebank and with Beggar, in either of which it can be a real bomb. It's a solid-ish pickup in a deck with lots of filtering but no great money-producers. It's MUCH better in colony games. And then there's lots of convoluted combos for it, with coppersmith, Inn, Chancellor, Haven. The biggest problems are inconsistency, terminalness, and lack of +buy to take advantage of the huge effect it can give you.

168.   Fortune Teller
Just a solid card, give them a four card hand. Well, actually you want it to skip their good cards, too, if you can. And it cycles them, which is a mixed bag. Not stackable, but a single copy is solid, if not great, in lots of places.

167.   Herbalist
Another terminal copper. Its most common use is as a cheap source of +buy, a poor-man's woodcutter. But it has lots of nice interactions. Even in BM, it can often be better than woodcutter proper, as just shifting a good treasure for extra uses is not bad. But okay, BM-herbalist isn't really a thing. The real uses for this card are with specialty treasures, and there's several cases here. Potion is the big one, as this lets you get more potion cards faster than anything (often including a second potion). But it also is great with P-Stone and Hoard, and works out with talisman quarry, counterfeit in a pinch. And even if it 'misses', shuttling a silver isn't the worst thing ever.

166.   Cellar
The worse but cheaper warehouse, which is nevertheless sometimes better than warehouse. A mediocre sifter.

165.   Saboteur
So this card gets a really bad rap. I mean, okay, it isn't very good - you are anti-remodelling them, and it takes a spot from your hand rather than theirs. And it costs 5 rather than 4. The thing is, this is only a good card when you can hit a reasonable percentage of their important cards with it. Often that means playing it a lot, a la with King's Court. But sometimes it just means getting it really early - if they only have silver and smithy, poaching one can be really big. And sometimes it just means having some way to set it up - a spy effect. And in these situations, it can be potentially devastating. Well, I guess nobody likes a card that's usually bad but also frustrating to play against. Of note, you reasonably often need to *not* play it late - they can just turn some action or other only semi-useful card into points, or three-pile end on you.

164.   Coppersmith
This one is a bit interesting. Well, basically all it does is produce more money for you, but it does it more than any other card in the game generally, so while it is normally bad, it can be used as a big-time finisher after constructing a big no-trash engine. Also just has some combos.

163.   Storeroom
Another card I don't feel like I have a great feel for. Cellar, then Secret Chamber? Well, you also get a buy, that is nice. This guarantees you $4, but that's not better than SC, and it can often get you $5, well okay, but... not great. However, it can be a source of money as well as buy for an engine which is overdrawing, so it at least has some niches.

162.   Talisman
The big problems with Talisman: Can't get Green, 4 is no 5, when you have 5 or more, you often want that one key card more than multiples of the cheaper one. Nevertheless, there's a good number of cheap cards which are nice to mass, and it has some pretty nice interactions with cost-reducers and things which are looking for lots of cheap cards (gardens, feodum).

161.   Alchemist
An engine all in one go. There are three problems. One, you need to do something with it, just like any engine. Two, its cost is pretty prohibitive - opening for it is pretty dangerous. Three, building a more conventional engine is often just faster, and although this tends to be a little more consistent, the speed is often more important.







brokoli

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #130 on: July 03, 2013, 05:56:37 pm »
0

In each part of the list I have to disagree on one card at least. Here, it's Storeroom. Storeroom is amazing. I have no argument to prove that, but from my experience, this card is simply awesome.
I would also put Fortune Teller much higher, but still, this isn't as shocking as the community's card list ^^
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SCSN

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #131 on: July 03, 2013, 07:16:28 pm »
+5

Alchemist below Workshop, Moat, Woodcutter, Pawn, Shanty Town, Trading Post, Embargo, Native Village, Lookout, Smugglers, Outpost, Horse Traders, Crossroads, Oracle, Noble Brigand, Farmland, Beggar, Vagrant, Sage, Armory, Death Cart, Scavenger, Count, Rogue, Doctor, Advisor... really?

Quote
There are three problems. One, you need to do something with it, just like any engine.

That holds for all drawers, so that hardly passes as a critic of Alchemist.

Quote
Two, its cost is pretty prohibitive - opening for it is pretty dangerous.

Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing :D

Quote
Three, building a more conventional engine is often just faster, and although this tends to be a little more consistent, the speed is often more important.

Sure, it isn't the best drawer in the game, but I prefer it all day over Moat, Courtyard, Oracle, Advisor and Crossroads (if you can consider that a drawer). In an otherwise mirror on a random board where my engine relies on Alchemists and yours on your favorite among those listed, I love my chances.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #132 on: July 03, 2013, 07:24:15 pm »
+1

Alchemist below Workshop, Moat, Woodcutter, Pawn, Shanty Town, Trading Post, Embargo, Native Village, Lookout, Smugglers, Outpost, Horse Traders, Crossroads, Oracle, Noble Brigand, Farmland, Beggar, Vagrant, Sage, Armory, Death Cart, Scavenger, Count, Rogue, Doctor, Advisor... really?

Quote
There are three problems. One, you need to do something with it, just like any engine.

That holds for all drawers, so that hardly passes as a critic of Alchemist.

Quote
Two, its cost is pretty prohibitive - opening for it is pretty dangerous.

Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing :D

Quote
Three, building a more conventional engine is often just faster, and although this tends to be a little more consistent, the speed is often more important.

Sure, it isn't the best drawer in the game, but I prefer it all day over Moat, Courtyard, Oracle, Advisor and Crossroads (if you can consider that a drawer). In an otherwise mirror on a random board where my engine relies on Alchemists and yours on your favorite among those listed, I love my chances.
Would I rather have Alchemist in my deck or any of those cards? Alchemist, 9 times out of 10. But it costs SO much (and those are cheap! Many also have uses other than 'card-drawer in an engine'). The issue is, if there's a halfway reasonable village on the board, it's just so much easier to get lots of the village plus that card. If there isn't, then Alchemist is probably not all that hot anyway, and it goes to big money. In big money, Alchemist might be worth it on a colony board, definitely not on a province board.

Of course this is an oversimplification, but well, that cost is a lot.
Another thing to look at: Alchemist is lab, except there's that bonus of being able to put back. Well, that's mitigated against discard attacks (which are fairly common in engines) and, more important, in most engines, you are going to be largely drawing them anyway. So, well lab is pretty good, but it isn't the greatest thing in the world, and this just costs more. I *certainly* like alchemist less than any of the cards in your second list, and while I might move it ahead of *some* of them on the first list, I pretty much really do like it this low.

Incidentally, in your post, you name a card I have in my top 10(!)

Dsell

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #133 on: July 03, 2013, 07:28:32 pm »
0

Incidentally, in your post, you name a card I have in my top 10(!)

It's Outpost, isn't it?
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Awaclus

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #134 on: July 03, 2013, 07:42:26 pm »
+2

Incidentally, in your post, you name a card I have in my top 10(!)

It's Outpost, isn't it?
Shouldn't Outpost be out your post, not in your post?
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Dsell

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #135 on: July 03, 2013, 07:48:11 pm »
0

Incidentally, in your post, you name a card I have in my top 10(!)

It's Outpost, isn't it?
Shouldn't Outpost be out your post, not in your post?

It's [REDACTED], isn't it?
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jonts26

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #136 on: July 03, 2013, 08:08:29 pm »
+2


It's [REDACTED], isn't it?

What is this sorcery?
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markusin

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #137 on: July 03, 2013, 08:29:01 pm »
0

Alchemist below Workshop, Moat, Woodcutter, Pawn, Shanty Town, Trading Post, Embargo, Native Village, Lookout, Smugglers, Outpost, Horse Traders, Crossroads, Oracle, Noble Brigand, Farmland, Beggar, Vagrant, Sage, Armory, Death Cart, Scavenger, Count, Rogue, Doctor, Advisor... really?

A great victory for Shanty Town. What can I say, I've become a fan.

Incidentally, in your post, you name a card I have in my top 10(!)

It's Outpost, isn't it?

Surely you mean Trading Post.
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Powerman

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #138 on: July 03, 2013, 08:39:03 pm »
0

Incidentally, in your post, you name a card I have in my top 10(!)

It's Outpost, isn't it?

I'd bet Noble Brigand.
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Robz888

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #139 on: July 03, 2013, 08:48:53 pm »
0

I bet crossroads.
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Robz888

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #140 on: July 03, 2013, 08:50:40 pm »
+1

I salute you for giving counting house and saboteur their due. Just one question... Talisman? I think I would put it lower, really.

I agree with you completely on alchemist.
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LastFootnote

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #141 on: July 03, 2013, 08:52:56 pm »
0

I'm going to guess Armory.
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Dsell

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #142 on: July 03, 2013, 09:01:12 pm »
0

I bet crossroads.

If I were actually betting, I'd put my money on Crossroads too (with an outside shot at Doctor, maybe? I am super inexperienced with the card).
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heron

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #143 on: July 03, 2013, 09:16:11 pm »
0

I guess Oracle. Guessing is fun!
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Fabian

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #144 on: July 03, 2013, 09:22:21 pm »
0

Can really only be Noble Brigand or Outpost I think.

Edit: And knowing WW, I know where I'm putting my money.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2013, 09:25:24 pm by Fabian »
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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #145 on: July 03, 2013, 09:23:38 pm »
0

I'll guess Embargo, with outside chances at Native Village, Death Cart, and Doctor.
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SirPeebles

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #146 on: July 03, 2013, 09:26:46 pm »
+4

I'm going to guess Courtyard.
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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #147 on: July 03, 2013, 09:29:06 pm »
0

I'll guess Count. That card is the bee's knees.
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markusin

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #148 on: July 03, 2013, 09:30:04 pm »
0

My first guess was Doctor. I'll have to stick with that guess until the end.
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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #149 on: July 03, 2013, 10:00:16 pm »
0

Courtyard
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