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WanderingWinder

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WW's Power Rankings
« on: June 29, 2013, 08:04:30 pm »
+55

This is a thread in which I am going to give a comprehensive ranking of all the kingdom cards in Dominion. I don't want this to be seen in any way as trying to degrade Qvist's rankings. Indeed, that is one of my favorite projects on this site. Yet I am still doing this - what's the difference? There are a few key differences: This is purely my own rankings, not composited with other people; this is purely for the 2-player version of the game; this includes all price points into a single comprehensive list; I'm only looking at pure random setups with all cards. I will also probably not have such detailed descriptions on each card. Anyway, on to the list!

Current List:

Code: [Select]
1.) Masquerade   [X]
2.) Ambassador   [X]
3.) Cultist   [X]
4.) Chapel   [X]
5.) Junk Dealer   [X]
6.) Mountebank   [X]
7.) Goons   [X]
8.) Upgrade   [X]
9.) Wharf   [X]
10.) Steward   [X]
11.) King's Court   [X]
12.) Counterfeit   [X]
13.) Remake   [X]
14.) Hermit   [X]
15.) Rebuild   [X]
16.) Margrave   [X]
17.) Tournament   [X]
18.) Ironmonger   [X]
19.) Hunting Party   [X]
20.) Forager   [X]
21.) Governor   [X]
22.) Fishing Village   [X]
23.) Witch   [X]
24.) Wandering Minstrel   [X]
25.) Butcher   [X]
26.) Bazaar   [X]
27.) Horn of Plenty   [X]
28.) Vineyard   [X]
29.) Jack of all Trades   [X]
30.) Border Village   [X]
31.) Stables   [X]
32.) Peddler   [X]
33.) Squire   [X]
34.) Fool's Gold   [X]
35.) Scrying Pool   [X]
36.) Swindler   [X]
37.) Menagerie   [X]
38.) Monument   [X]
39.) Knights   [X]
40.) Minion   [X]
41.) Torturer   [X]
42.) Highway   [X]
43.) Hamlet   [X]
44.) Native Village   [X]
45.) Grand Market   [X]
46.) Fairgrounds   [X]
47.) Marauder   [X]
48.) Courtyard   [X]
49.) Herald   [X]
50.) Young Witch   [X]
51.) Catacombs   [X]
52.) Altar   [X]
53.) Warehouse   [X]
54.) Quarry   [X]
55.) Council Room   [X]
56.) Baker   [X]
57.) Throne Room   [X]
58.) Plaza   [X]
59.) Familiar   [X]
60.) Soothsayer   [X]
61.) Pillage   [X]
62.) Militia   [X]
63.) Stonemason   [X]
64.) Sea Hag   [X]
65.) Ill-Gotten Gains   [X]
66.) Apothecary   [X]
67.) Hunting Grounds   [X]
68.) Smithy   [X]
69.) Envoy   [X]
70.) Crossroads   [X]
71.) Bridge   [X]
72.) Smugglers   [X]
73.) Candlestick Maker   [X]
74.) Vagrant   [X]
75.) Bandit Camp   [X]
76.) Watchtower   [X]
77.) Moat   [X]
78.) Apprentice   [X]
79.) Bishop   [X]
80.) Conspirator   [X]
81.) Village   [X]
82.) Urchin   [X]
83.) Worker's Village   [X]
84.) Silk Road   [X]
85.) Gardens   [X]
86.) Ironworks   [X]
87.) Laboratory   [X]
88.) Caravan   [X]
89.) Journeyman   [X]
90.) Count   [X]
91.) Spice Merchant   [X]
92.) Haggler   [X]
93.) Black Market   [X]
94.) Oracle   [X]
95.) Fortress   [X]
96.) Rabble   [X]
97.) Duke   [X]
98.) Cartographer   [X]
99.) Horse Traders   [X]
100.) Scavenger   [X]
101.) Possession   [X]
102.) Forge   [X]
103.) City   [X]
104.) Festival   [X]
105.) Market   [X]
106.) Mining Village   [X]
107.) Farming Village   [X]
108.) Walled Village   [X]
109.) Ghost Ship   [X]
110.) Tunnel   [X]
111.) Lighthouse   [X]
112.) Inn   [X]
113.) Tactician   [X]
114.) Venture   [X]
115.) Nobles   [X]
116.) Cutpurse   [X]
117.) Treasury   [X]
118.) Hoard   [X]
119.) Jester   [X]
120.) Storeroom   [X]
121.) Salvager   [X]
122.) Masterpiece   [X]
123.) Loan   [X]
124.) Oasis   [X]
125.) Baron   [X]
126.) Embassy   [X]
127.) Market Square   [X]
128.) Procession   [X]
129.) Vault   [X]
130.) Pawn   [X]
131.) Workshop   [X]
132.) Cellar   [X]
133.) Library   [X]
134.) Fortune Teller   [X]
135.) Farmland   [X]
136.) Shanty Town   [X]
137.) Band of Misfits   [X]
138.) Poor House   [X]
139.) Beggar   [X]
140.) Wishing Well   [X]
141.) Moneylender   [X]
142.) Duchess   [X]
143.) Doctor   [X]
144.) Embargo   [X]
145.) Develop   [X]
146.) Merchant Guild   [X]
147.) Mint   [X]
148.) Herbalist   [X]
149.) Woodcutter   [X]
150.) Harem   [X]
151.) Alchemist   [X]
152.) Lookout   [X]
153.) Merchant Ship   [X]
154.) Scheme   [X]
155.) Rats   [X]
156.) Golem   [X]
157.) Island   [X]
158.) Noble Brigand   [X]
159.) Pearl Diver   [X]
160.) Death Cart   [X]
161.) Explorer   [X]
162.) Graverobber   [X]
163.) Mystic   [X]
164.) Mandarin   [X]
165.) Contraband   [X]
166.) Secret Chamber   [X]
167.) Saboteur   [X]
168.) Chancellor   [X]
169.) Rogue   [X]
170.) Remodel   [X]
171.) Talisman   [X]
172.) Advisor   [X]
173.) University   [X]
174.) Bank   [X]
175.) Counting House   [X]
176.) Coppersmith   [X]
177.) Spy   [X]
178.) Tribute   [X]
179.) Taxman   [X]
180.) Nomad Camp   [X]
181.) Haven   [X]
182.) Cache   [X]
183.) Sage   [X]
184.) Expand   [X]
185.) Armory   [X]
186.) Feodum   [X]
187.) Trading Post   [X]
188.) Outpost   [X]
189.) Trader   [X]
190.) Trade Route   [X]
191.) Feast   [X]
192.) Great Hall   [X]
193.) Philosopher's Stone   [X]
194.) Royal Seal   [X]
195.) Treasure Map   [X]
196.) Bureaucrat   [X]
197.) Stash   [X]
198.) Navigator   [X]
199.) Thief   [X]
200.) Mine   [X]
201.) Harvest   [X]
202.) Pirate Ship   [X]
203.) Transmute   [X]
204.) Adventurer   [X]
205.) Scout   [X]

Previous List:
Code: [Select]
1. Masquerade
2. Ambassador
3. Steward
4. Rebuild
5. Mountebank
6. Chapel
7. Goons
8. Witch
9. Cultist
10. Wharf
11. Hunting Party
12. Junk Dealer
13. Margrave
14. King’s Court
15. Counterfeit
16. Upgrade
17. Vineyard
18. Jack of All Trades
19. Hermit
20. Torturer
21. Fishing Village
22. Forager
23. Ill-Gotten Gains
24. Fairgrounds
25. Tournament
26. Border Village
27. Young Witch
28. Wandering Minstrel
29. Ironmonger
30. Soothsayer
31. Monument
32. Sea Hag
33. Fool’s Gold
34. Menagerie
35. Stables
36. Governor
37. Minion
38. Remake
39. Swindler
40. Marauder
41. Ghost Ship
42. Journeyman
43. Haggler
44. Horn of Plenty
45. Laboratory
46. Familiar
47. Courtyard
48. Knights
49. Embassy
50. Militia
51. Duke
52. Tactician
53. Bazaar
54. Butcher
55. Cartographer
56. Highway
57. Scrying Pool
58. Peddler
59. Bandit Camp
60. Vault
61. Catacombs
62. Inn
63. Rabble
64. Baker
65. Conspirator
66. Grand Market
67. Altar
68. Silk Road
69. Worker’s Village
70. Lighthouse
71. Squire
72. Watchtower
73. Hamlet
74. Stonemason
75. Throne Room
76. Caravan
77. Warehouse
78. Apprentice
79. Festival
80. Plaza
81. Nobles
82. Herald
83. Gardens
84. Native Village
85. Hunting Grounds
86. Pillage
87. Crossroads
88. Ironworks
89. Hoard
90. Develop
91. Oracle
92. Library
93. Jester
94. Embargo
95. Spice Merchant
96. Baron
97. Apothecary
98. Smithy
99. Bridge
100. Village
101. Market
102. City
103. Council Room
104. Oasis
105. Venture
106. Moat
107. Masterpiece
108. Forge
109. Quarry
110. University
111. Wishing Well
112. Salvager
113. Treasury
114. Mystic
115. Fortress
116. Horse Traders
117. Scheme
118. Remodel
119. Cutpurse
120. Bishop
121. Envoy
122. Procession
123. Noble Brigand
124. Lookout
125. Farming Village
126. Tunnel
127. Smugglers
128. Shanty Town
129. Market Square
130. Candlestick Maker
131. Pawn
132. Armory
133. Beggar
134. Mining Village
135. Possession
136. Count
137. Golem
138. Scavenger
139. Walled Village
140. Moneylender
141. Bank
142. Advisor
143. Storeroom
144. Vagrant
145. Doctor
146. Trader
147. Urchin
148. Mint
149. Workshop
150. Island
151. Merchant Ship
152. Rogue
153. Outpost
154. Merchant Guild
155. Farmland
156. Loan
157. Woodcutter
158. Death Cart
159. Alchemist
160. Talisman
161. Graverobber
162. Coppersmith
163. Saboteur
164. Harem
165. Cellar
166. Fortune Teller
167. Counting House
168. Expand
169. Mandarin
170. Sage
171. Band of Misfits
172. Cache
173. Herbalist
174. Explorer
175. Black Market
176. Duchess
177. Nomad Camp
178. Bureaucrat
179. Feodum
180. Poor House
181. Haven
182. Contraband
183. Tribute
184. Spy
185. Stash
186. Taxman
187. Royal Seal
188. Trading Post
189. Chancellor
190. Trade Route
191. Great Hall
192. Pearl Diver
193. Rats
194. Treasure Map
195. Navigator
196. Secret Chamber
197. Pirate Ship
198. Thief
199. Mine
200. Feast
201. Philosopher’s Stone
202. Transmute
203. Harvest
204. Adventurer
205. Scout


Original List:
Code: [Select]
1. Ambassador
2. Rebuild
3. Mountebank
4. Masquerade
5. Wharf
6. Steward
7. King’s Court
8. Goons
9. Doctor
10. Chapel
11. Witch
12. Cultist
13. Jack of All Trades
14. Hunting Party
15. Junk Dealer
16. Margrave
17. Upgrade
18. Counterfeit
19. Torturer
20. Vineyard
21. Fishing Village
22. Stables
23. Governor
24. Ill-Gotten Gains
25. Grand Market
26. Border Village
27. Knights
28. Fairgrounds
29. Tournament
30. Hermit
31. Young Witch
32. Remake
33. Wandering Minstrel
34. Soothsayer
35. Laboratory
36. Ironmonger
37. Monument
38. Marauder
39. Sea Hag
40. Minion
41. Tactician
42. Ghost Ship
43. Journeyman
44. Haggler
45. Horn of Plenty
46. Squire
47. Watchtower
48. Hamlet
49. Scrying Pool
50. Altar
51. Familiar
52. Fool’s Gold
53. Stonemason
54. Swindler
55. Menagerie
56. Embassy
57. Militia
58. Duke
59. Masterpiece
60. Caravan
61. Apprentice
62. Bridge
63. Bazaar
64. Butcher
65. Cartographer
66. Highway
67. Bandit Camp
68. Vault
69. Catacombs
70. Courtyard
71. Inn
72. Rabble
73. Baker
74. Conspirator
75. Hoard
76. Silk Road
77. Worker’s Village
78. Throne Room
79. Candlestick Maker
80. Warehouse
81. Festival
82. Plaza
83. Nobles
84. Lighthouse
85. Native Village
86. Pillage
87. Crossroads
88. Ironworks
89. Develop
90. Oracle
91. Moat
92. Library
93. Jester
94. Embargo
95. Spice Merchant
96. Peddler
97. Baron
98. Herald
99. Apothecary
100. Smithy
101. Gardens
102. Scheme
103. Market
104. City
105. Council Room
106. Oasis
107. Venture
108. Forge
109. Hunting Grounds
110. Village
111. Quarry
112. University
113. Advisor
114. Wishing Well
115. Salvager
116. Fortress
117. Possession
118. Bank
119. Treasury
120. Mystic
121. Horse Traders
122. Remodel
123. Cutpurse
124. Envoy
125. Merchant Ship
126. Noble Brigand
127. Farming Village
128. Bishop
129. Tunnel
130. Shanty Town
131. Sage
132. Pawn
133. Armory
134. Count
135. Mining Village
136. Forager
137. Harem
138. Smugglers
139. Procession
140. Golem
141. Scavenger
142. Walled Village
143. Beggar
144. Merchant Guild
145. Lookout
146. Trader
147. Urchin
148. Workshop
149. Death Cart
150. Island
151. Market Square
152. Trading Post
153. Graverobber
154. Rogue
155. Outpost
156. Mint
157. Farmland
158. Loan
159. Woodcutter
160. Vagrant
161. Alchemist
162. Talisman
163. Storeroom
164. Coppersmith
165. Saboteur
166. Cellar
167. Herbalist
168. Fortune Teller
169. Counting House
170. Mandarin
171. Band of Misfits
172. Cache
173. Explorer
174. Black Market
175. Duchess
176. Nomad Camp
177. Bureaucrat
178. Feodum
179. Moneylender
180. Poor House
181. Haven
182. Contraband
183. Chancellor
184. Tribute
185. Spy
186. Great Hall
187. Pearl Diver
188. Rats
189. Trade Route
190. Treasure Map
191. Navigator
192. Stash
193. Taxman
194. Royal Seal
195. Expand
196. Secret Chamber
197. Philosopher’s Stone
198. Harvest
199. Pirate Ship
200. Thief
201. Mine
202. Transmute
203. Feast
204. Adventurer
205. Scout
Links to descriptions/Explanations: Part I
Part II
Part III
Part IV
Part V
Part VI
Part VII
Part VIII
Part IX
Part X
Part XI
Part XII
Part XIII
Part XIV
Part XV
Part XVI
Part XVII
« Last Edit: February 22, 2014, 08:54:47 am by WanderingWinder »
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WanderingWinder

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2013, 08:04:45 pm »
+17

Part 1: The Bottom

#205 Scout
Right away, we can see something important about how the list is made. The bottom card in the list, Scout, is really not nearly the one that would usually do the most harm to your deck, should you add it to the random deck. It's all about what does the least good. This is important, because with the exception of swindler (and in convoluted situations, ambassador and masquerade), you aren't going to be forced to have a card you don't want in your deck. So the worst a card can be is you don't buy it, and get something else instead. Ergo, the card gets measured about what it adds when you do want as well as how often it is better than the alternatives which are available. It's all about the opportunity cost.
Ok, Scout itself. It's here mostly because it is just almost never doing anything for you. Though nonterminal, the drawing ability is inconsistent, and in those decks where it would be good, you're usually better served having a silver. Even with Great Hall, Harem, and Nobles, the cards you would most associate with a Scout strategy, you're essentially never get to the situation where scout would make a significant improvement over the next available alternative. It also nombos with things like Crossroads, where your scout could have been another crossroads, and of course you can't on scout and crossroads to appear in the same hand together, and separate they can anti-synergize. So the only salvation is in the re-order effect, which helps apothecary, wishing well, and mystic, though it's still usually not worth the time. It's a passable card for Horn Of Plenty and Fairgrounds, and the most important interaction is scrying pool, where getting the few remaining green cards might be a significant portion of your deck, and it can set up the order for maximum SP draw. Even here, there's usually something better. But at least it's something.

#204 Adventurer
Again, opportunity cost. It draws 2 cards, which moat can do, but you do get the sometimes-a-benefit of they have to be treasure. This is actually often NOT a benefit, because you would like to draw actions. But most important, this costs $6. It would see some play at $5, where I think it would be reasonably weak but not awful. This is the one place where I would most seriously look if I'm going to point and say miscosted. On the plus side, it does give a *slight* advantage at some point over straight Big Money, and it can be draw if you are really desperate for it in an engine - maybe with Horn of Plenty or tunnel.

#203 Feast
Yup, maybe a surprise, but Feast is just terrible. The problem is, silver gets you to 5 almost as reliably, and is usually nice o have around in your deck later. The only things feast has going are a few interactions with $5 slog cards (even here, it's a clear edge but not a huge one) and King's Court/Throne Room interactions.

#202 Transmute
The problem here is that you need to invest a potion into it to get this. Gaining duchies is usually quite bad, because it requires you to spend lots of time and get rid of an action, which you probably would rather have (and rather play than transmute). Turning estates into gold is of course very nice. But gaining more transmutes is generally only good if transmute is really good already, or almost never. Its best uses are from missing more expensive potion-costers, where it helps you lose less, cleaning up after familiars, and gaining more of itself to feed vineyards. Occasionally you can even turn copper into more of these for scrying pool, but this is pretty rare. You will almost never buy potion just for this - the only alchemy card you can really say that about.

#201 Mine
Why is Mine down here? Well, it's reasonably useful, but usually it's a terminal copper for you right now, getting better treasures doesn't do tons for you, and it costs $5, which is really a big premium.

#200 Thief
This doesn't hit opponent's good treasure enough to justify that it costs 4, is terminal, and trashes their copper for them (which is usually a benefit). It has a real place, though, in stealing some specialty treasures, as well as not being terrible in slogs. It also stops opponents from building the thin-deck-which-then-uses-almost-purely-treasure-to-win, but that deck is really rare to start with.

#199 Pirate Ship
This is really close to Thief. I give PS a very slight edge, as it has more use in engines against Money decks, where the stealing wouldn't be useful but some virtual cash might be. Very often, it goes the other way, though.

#198 Harvest
This can usually be used as a terminal gold, which isn't the worst thing ever, but it does require some work, and most importantly it can't be used after drawing your whole deck, which really hurts engine potential. It also costs $5, at which you're most often going to be able to do better.

#197 Philosopher's Stone
The problem here is that it is really hard to get set up - yo need a big deck, but then you don't see your potion often to get stones, and you don't see your stones often to use them. Still, it's pretty good after familiar, and with Herbalist it makes a veritable power combo. But you'll hardly see it otherwise.

#196 Secret Chamber
The reaction defends against quite a lot of top-2-cards-of-deck attacks, and can soften the occasional other attack as well. But those don't come up all that often. And the main action part can be useful if you are overdrawing your deck, to make lots of money, but in these situations, there is usually some other, better way to lay down the hammer blow. Beyond this, the use is really limited - discarding one estate makes this no better than copper, two is no better than silver, and you quite rarely can do more than that.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2013, 08:32:32 pm by WanderingWinder »
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Obi Wan Bonogi

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2013, 08:29:20 pm »
+4

Let the nitpicking begin! 

I think Pirate Ship > Harvest!
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SirPeebles

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2013, 08:32:37 pm »
+18

I think                >                   !
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Just a Rube

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2013, 09:05:53 pm »
+11

I think                >                   !
I disagree.
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Fabian

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2013, 11:23:19 pm »
0

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LastFootnote

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2013, 12:49:35 am »
+5

Great list so far, WanderingWinder. The cost-based lists are cool, but it's also a good exercise to rank the cards on one list, since cost is just one facet of a card's power.

I'm going to write some…counterpoints isn't really the right word. I play almost exclusively games with cards pulled from 2 expansions at a time, which I believe is how most of the playtesting was done. It's no more or less valid than pure random, but I believe it can offer some insight into why some cards are the way they are.

Scout: Scout sucks. I wish it didn't, but your analysis is pretty much spot-on, with one small omission. Scout's reordering can be useful anytime your deck has cantrips, which is pretty frequent. Great Hall's the obvious poster child since Scout can draw it into hand and then order the top of your deck to choose which card Great Hall will draw when you play it. This obviously doesn't make Scout worth buying on its own, but it's a factor in Scout's favor. Really, the upshot is that Scout is a high-skill card, but it's a very weak high-skill card. It has to have a lot of things in its favor to be worth buying, and even then you may never hit the $4 you need at the right stage in the game. Hell if you're paying $5 for it. Even in an all-Intrigue game it seems marginal. Oh, how I wish it gave +$1.

Adventurer: Adventurer is a bit of a paradox because at $6 it competes directly with Gold, yet it needs good Treasure (like Gold) to be viable. Looking through the suggested sets of 10 for the various rulebooks, Adventurer appears on boards where you either (A) have a way to get Gold (or a lot of Silver) without buying it or (B) have a healthy Treasure-based alternative to Gold at a different price point (e.g. Fool's Gold). Whether it's actually a good purchase on such boards is debatable, but I think that's the intent. Could it cost $5? Maybe. That might incentivize Big Money as much as Envoy, but maybe I'm completely wrong.

Feast: Sadly, this card doesn't really need to exist. It's not just that it's weak. It's that it almost never changes the strategy of any board it's on.

Transmute: OK, here's where my experience diverges. In a game with 4 or 5 Alchemy cards, Transmute tends to usually be a go-to card. First, you're buying the Potion anyway. Ideally, you're picking up a Transmute with an extra buy, but even if you're not, my experience tells me you want it early. Even if it means waiting on that second Apothecary, or whatever. Turning your Estates into Gold is great, but in an Alchemy game it's even more crucial for two reasons. Well, one reason, really: you tend to want to use all your buys on Actions. First because when a Potion hand comes up you want to spend that Potion rather than buying a Gold. Second because many Alchemy cards work better with more Actions in your deck. So you want a few Golds in your deck, but you don't want to buy them. Transmute to the rescue. In the endgame you're often turning some nice Actions into Duchies, and that's great too.

Mine: I've got a soft spot for Mine in my heart. I almost certainly overbuy it. I agree that it's one of the least powerful $5 cards, but if it's the only terminal out there, I'll buy it. If it's a Colony game, I'll buy it. If there's a discard attack on the board, I'll often buy it. I'm a bit surprised you ranked it below, say, Chancellor.

Thief and Pirate Ship: I don't think I have anything new or interesting to say about these two. They're better in 4-player games.

Harvest: It's less obvious than its Alchemy analogues, but just as Transmute is better when you already want a Potion for other reasons, Harvest is better when you already want variety for other reasons. If you're already building a deck around Menagerie, Horn of Plenty, or especially Fairgrounds, Harvest makes a very nice addition that will often pull $4. It's also a great card against deck muckers and cursers, like Fortune Teller, Young Witch, and Jester.

Philosopher's Stone: Like Transmute, Philosopher's Stone is way better in games with 4 or 5 Alchemy cards. "But wait," I hear you cry, "Philosopher's Stone is less useful in the kind of Action chain games that Alchemy is famous for!" Well, OK, yes. You're not going to buy Philosopher's Stones for your Scrying Pool deck or your Unstoppable Alchemist Stack™. But you are going to snap them up in a game with Familiar, Herbalist, University (without terminal draw), and even Golem. As with Transmute, the Potion is the biggest part of Philosopher's Stone's opportunity cost. Once you've got a Potion or two in your deck, Philosopher's Stones are often fantastic.

Secret Chamber: Secret Chamber isn't stellar, but it's a beast against Swindler. Normally I will only consider buying a Secret Chamber if I'm going to reliably have a very large hand size, but I am buying it more and more with only Swindler in its favor. It rarely disappoints. You can kind of see how it works with the rest of Intrigue, too. It combos with Scout: draw the Victory cards, then discard them for cash. If you're fighting Torturers, it at least lets you discard those Curses in hand for Coins. "Fun" Fact: unlike Adventurer, Secret Chamber gets zero love in the suggested sets of 10. It's in none of the suggested sets post-Intrigue and only one set in Intrigue itself.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2013, 01:03:55 am by LastFootnote »
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jsh357

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2013, 01:07:40 am »
+1

Mine: I've got a soft spot for Mine in my heart. I almost certainly overbuy it. I agree that it's one of the least powerful $5 cards, but if it's the only terminal out there, I'll buy it. If it's a Colony game, I'll buy it. If there's a discard attack on the board, I'll often buy it. I'm a bit surprised you ranked it below, say, Chancellor.

I would also rank Chancellor above these.  It's a $3 terminal Silver that can help with openings requiring some amount of luck (namely Familiar, but it can also help you to play trashers and such more often early on).  Combos strongly with Stash, Inn buys, and Herald overpay.  It's useful when you have already played your key cards during a shuffle.  I'm not saying it's a great card, but I'd certainly put it a tier above these. 

I think Pirate Ship is maybe the only card I'd bump higher here.  (I want to rank PStone higher but can't justify it)  Pirate Ship can perform well vs decks that rely solely on treasure.  Sadly, it's sort of a case of using it against opponents that don't know how to play against it. 

Incidentally and almost completely off topic, I played a hilarious game yesterday in which I sniped my opponent's treasure with PS to beat a Rebuild/BM strategy and won with the help of Explorer. 
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130628/log.505c6645a2e6c78ad2ed5ad3.1372480204580.txt
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2013, 01:15:18 am »
+1

I wholeheartedly approve of this project, and so far mostly agree with the rankings. I think Harvest is even worse than you give it credit for, like below Feast. And I think Mine is better than you're ranking it. It's true that "getting better treasures doesn't do tons for you" a good deal of the time, but it does do something for you at least some of the time -- more often than Harvest. Mine gives +$1 now, and in a sense +$1 every subsequent shuffle (potentially something better with alternative treasures). If you're shuffling frequently, its value can add up.
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Archetype

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2013, 01:58:48 am »
+4

yo need a big deck
Watch out, WW is going street on us.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2013, 02:13:54 am »
+10

yo need a big deck
Watch out, WW is going street on us.

At least he got the deck part right this time.
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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2013, 02:33:46 am »
0

Mine is less useful than chansellor? Really? I know, chansellor-stash, but you put philosopher's stone down there already despite philosopher's stone-herbalist.
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Tables

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2013, 05:07:44 am »
0

Mine is the card here that most surprises me. In Province games, I think it might be about right there. But it's a lot stronger in Colony games, which make up around 1/9 to 1/8 games including Mine.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

WrathOfGlod

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2013, 06:36:43 am »
0

I have to say that pirate ship is the card I  most disagree with in this ranking. On a deck with a strong engine but no other virtual money pirate ship can be a must buy as once you get your engine up you can pin the player relying on treasure cards while simultaneously getting up to 2 province buy potential.

It isn't a strong card, but I would guess on roughly 5-10% of the boards, pirate ship is a solid buy and in around half of those it is a must buy. That is far far higher than secret chamber or harvest and definitely superior to thief.
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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #14 on: June 30, 2013, 08:07:37 am »
+6

Mine is better than Yours.
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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2013, 08:16:45 am »
+1

Great list so far, WanderingWinder. The cost-based lists are cool, but it's also a good exercise to rank the cards on one list, since cost is just one facet of a card's power.

I'm going to write some…counterpoints isn't really the right word. I play almost exclusively games with cards pulled from 2 expansions at a time, which I believe is how most of the playtesting was done. It's no more or less valid than pure random, but I believe it can offer some insight into why some cards are the way they are.
I should probably add in as a difference that these rankings are for full random across all sets as well. But I still appreciate the insights, of course! And I agree that other ways of playing are perfectly valid - just not what my rankings are dealing with.

Quote
Scout: Scout sucks. I wish it didn't, but your analysis is pretty much spot-on, with one small omission. Scout's reordering can be useful anytime your deck has cantrips, which is pretty frequent. Great Hall's the obvious poster child since Scout can draw it into hand and then order the top of your deck to choose which card Great Hall will draw when you play it. This obviously doesn't make Scout worth buying on its own, but it's a factor in Scout's favor. Really, the upshot is that Scout is a high-skill card, but it's a very weak high-skill card. It has to have a lot of things in its favor to be worth buying, and even then you may never hit the $4 you need at the right stage in the game. Hell if you're paying $5 for it. Even in an all-Intrigue game it seems marginal. Oh, how I wish it gave +$1.
The issue is... like great hall is actually a huge nombo. If you draw one great hall, it's like a cantrip with a re-order effect, that is pretty good of course, but not great, but... great hall is also a bad card, and you are adding bad cards to play more bad cards, which you're going to have a hard time pulling off (your great hall density can't be all that high almost ever), this stops you from getting needed building going, and most of all, the scout could have been another great hall, unless the pile's empty, and most usually another great hall would be better. Ok, it's not a useless card, but even in situations where it's supposedly designed to be good, it is hard to set up correctly for an extremely marginal benefit. Some of that hardness is skill, yes, but some of it is also just structural.

Quote
Adventurer: Adventurer is a bit of a paradox because at $6 it competes directly with Gold, yet it needs good Treasure (like Gold) to be viable. Looking through the suggested sets of 10 for the various rulebooks, Adventurer appears on boards where you either (A) have a way to get Gold (or a lot of Silver) without buying it or (B) have a healthy Treasure-based alternative to Gold at a different price point (e.g. Fool's Gold). Whether it's actually a good purchase on such boards is debatable, but I think that's the intent. Could it cost $5? Maybe. That might incentivize Big Money as much as Envoy, but maybe I'm completely wrong.
Incentivizing BM as much as envoy is certainly no crime - BM-envoy is pretty weak, just not like, unplayable.

Quote
Feast: Sadly, this card doesn't really need to exist. It's not just that it's weak. It's that it almost never changes the strategy of any board it's on.
Yes, that is the point! There are some cards fairly low where, ok, maybe you get them reasonably often, but how much better are they than the alternatives? Some, yes, but very very little.

Quote
Transmute: OK, here's where my experience diverges. In a game with 4 or 5 Alchemy cards, Transmute tends to usually be a go-to card. First, you're buying the Potion anyway. Ideally, you're picking up a Transmute with an extra buy, but even if you're not, my experience tells me you want it early. Even if it means waiting on that second Apothecary, or whatever. Turning your Estates into Gold is great, but in an Alchemy game it's even more crucial for two reasons. Well, one reason, really: you tend to want to use all your buys on Actions. First because when a Potion hand comes up you want to spend that Potion rather than buying a Gold. Second because many Alchemy cards work better with more Actions in your deck. So you want a few Golds in your deck, but you don't want to buy them. Transmute to the rescue. In the endgame you're often turning some nice Actions into Duchies, and that's great too.
Yeah, I don't know. I mean, sure, it has its uses - everything does - but these to me also seem to be decks where okay, how badly do I really want gold anyway? Not very. And most any other form of gaining or remodeling or upgrading would be preferred, but okay, yeah, it's sometimes not available. Still, I think this deserves the low spot.

Quote
Mine: I've got a soft spot for Mine in my heart. I almost certainly overbuy it. I agree that it's one of the least powerful $5 cards, but if it's the only terminal out there, I'll buy it. If it's a Colony game, I'll buy it. If there's a discard attack on the board, I'll often buy it. I'm a bit surprised you ranked it below, say, Chancellor.
Colony games help it, sort of, because there is platinum, but on the other hand, they also make the game into one where you don't want to spend lots of time nursing and upgrading your treasure. Again, yeah, has its uses, but at 5, doesn't seem to be a gamebreaker almost ever, and I want my 5s to either do that, or be exceptional support cards.

Quote
Harvest: It's less obvious than its Alchemy analogues, but just as Transmute is better when you already want a Potion for other reasons, Harvest is better when you already want variety for other reasons. If you're already building a deck around Menagerie, Horn of Plenty, or especially Fairgrounds, Harvest makes a very nice addition that will often pull $4. It's also a great card against deck muckers and cursers, like Fortune Teller, Young Witch, and Jester.
Uh, hm. If I were re-doing this list (and I am always redoing the list), moving this down would be one of the first things to look at. Okay, it can pull 4. That's actually not a big deal. Especially when those other cards are present - I would just like more of them please. Again, not useless, but color me meh. And I don't think it's at all 'great' against those attacks, more like 'slightly better'.

Quote
Philosopher's Stone: Like Transmute, Philosopher's Stone is way better in games with 4 or 5 Alchemy cards. "But wait," I hear you cry, "Philosopher's Stone is less useful in the kind of Action chain games that Alchemy is famous for!" Well, OK, yes. You're not going to buy Philosopher's Stones for your Scrying Pool deck or your Unstoppable Alchemist Stack™. But you are going to snap them up in a game with Familiar, Herbalist, University (without terminal draw), and even Golem. As with Transmute, the Potion is the biggest part of Philosopher's Stone's opportunity cost. Once you've got a Potion or two in your deck, Philosopher's Stones are often fantastic.
I feel like this is more or less what I was saying? The issue here is probably that in laying with like 5 alchemy cards is really disproportionate, because there are only 13, you are going to see combos all the time.

Quote
Secret Chamber: Secret Chamber isn't stellar, but it's a beast against Swindler. Normally I will only consider buying a Secret Chamber if I'm going to reliably have a very large hand size, but I am buying it more and more with only Swindler in its favor. It rarely disappoints. You can kind of see how it works with the rest of Intrigue, too. It combos with Scout: draw the Victory cards, then discard them for cash. If you're fighting Torturers, it at least lets you discard those Curses in hand for Coins. "Fun" Fact: unlike Adventurer, Secret Chamber gets zero love in the suggested sets of 10. It's in none of the suggested sets post-Intrigue and only one set in Intrigue itself.
Yeah, again, uses, and specific interactions, but these don't save it from being a bad card. I mean, everything has uses.

WanderingWinder

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #16 on: June 30, 2013, 08:28:30 am »
0

I have to say that pirate ship is the card I  most disagree with in this ranking. On a deck with a strong engine but no other virtual money pirate ship can be a must buy as once you get your engine up you can pin the player relying on treasure cards while simultaneously getting up to 2 province buy potential.

It isn't a strong card, but I would guess on roughly 5-10% of the boards, pirate ship is a solid buy and in around half of those it is a must buy. That is far far higher than secret chamber or harvest and definitely superior to thief.
I think you need to re-examine your math. Do you know how few cards give +buy without any virtual coin? Hamlet, Market Square, worker's village... So you have, Pirate Ship, and One of those, and the rest of your cards also don't provide virtual coin, and they make a strong engine. And otherwise, you aren't getting 2 provinces a turn. Actually, they are probably not getting so many treasures that you could really get 2 treasures a turn anyway. I mean, okay, it can be good if you already have zanily good engines where you are overdrawing your deck and are swimming in actions, but I have to tell you, not only is such a situation rare, but there are lots of other cards that would work in that situation as well. So it's like, Pirate Ship is good there, yes, but it's not so much the pirate ship that's good, it's the everything else which is good.

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #17 on: June 30, 2013, 09:03:30 am »
+5

Part II: The Still Quite Bad Cards

195.   Expand
Expand, a seven cost. Yeah, the problem is, this is so expensive for something that's not a great effect. Remodel is the obvious comparison. and remodel is a decent enough card, though not great, but what is the real use of remodel? The biggest thing is turning estates into engine components. It can also have some usefulness later on in upgrading cards which have outlived their own purposes, and it can turn gold into province or speed the end of the game. Expand does these things hardly better at all, and it costs a heck of a lot more. And it doesn't open up many new strategies either - using all 3 of its expanding powers just doesn't come up that often. It's often like a worse mine, or a worse taxman, or a worse graverobber, or a worse rebuild, or a worse altar, and it's more expensive than all these cards, to boot. The flexibility to do all those different things, but it doesn't save the card altogether.

194.   Royal Seal
Better than silver! But for 5, I want more. The ability to get an extra play out of purchases really doesn't do all that much for me - really, you have to use it a lot to justify not just buying those things in the first place, or want that ability and more silver than you have when hitting 5 already, and well, usually you'd rather have some building component. It also becomes pretty worthless toward the end of the game. Okay, it's not THAT terrible early, but it's just so rarely ooh the card I want. And it doesn't stack well.

193.   Taxman
Maybe I just don't understand the card. But the attack doesn't seem super reliable to me, especially when you for sure do that to yourself, just to mine you next turn? Eh, I find myself regretting when I get it, but maybe I just haven't found the uses yet...

192.   Stash
This has the huge combos with Chancellor and Scavenger, which are pretty impervious to junking attacks and really powerful. Beyond this, it is a little better than silver for BM, has interactions with wishing well and mystic, can make some cute plusses with things like native village or as defenses to attacks, but most of these are pretty inconsequential. Okay, it can be used to assuredly get that province once a shuffle, this is the big thing, particularly for heavy-junk games. But usually almost the same as silver for 5, which is not an exciting thing to do.

191.   Navigator
The problem is, it's terminal. Skipping cards is similar to Chancellor, but slower, more selective, and more expensive. Being able to put them back in an order can be nice, but there aren't actually all that many interactions for this, especially because it's terminal.

190.   Treasure Map
People complain that this is really luck-based, and it is somewhat, but the thing is, usually even a lucky collision isn't that good for it! Very often your four earl golds won't do that much as I am cruising ahead with an engine. Still, with some sifters or haven, it can be decent, and with T4B, it can be a big spring of value. Potentially.

189.   Trade Route
This card has issues. Biggest thing is that it trashes so badly. And the +buy isn't likely to matter until you can get it worth a lot. And how do you go for this exactly? The problem is, if you go for it, then you usually have to end up grabbing a green card to power it up, which only clogs you more, and then your opponent can just ride your coat-tails and pick one of these up with the benefits but not the work. Okay, so it's not an early-game card, but it's just not something that you can pick up that often late-game either.

188.   Rats
Replacing any other card with this. With the ability to cantrip, potentially dangerously, and having to pick an extra one of these junk-heaps up to get started... it's not worth it without help. That might be cursing (but usually I'd rather have another trasher). So ok, you need trash for benefit, but even there, you often would just get that other card. Surely, this can be a nice key little player with some trash for benefit cards, but often it does squat for you.

187.   Pearl Diver
Yeah, it can bring the bottom card to the top, making it not miss the reshuffle. Almost always useful, almost never very useful.

186.   Great Hall
The original VP chip, sort of. It's so much better than estate, because it doesn't junk your deck. Well, yeah, sort of. But another big reason you don't buy estate is because you need other stuff. So most often, you just get this really late, when it is only occasionally better than estate anyway. Okay, engines where you don't want more silver, hit 3, and don't have another cheap component to pick up. But this is pretty rare and fairly inconsequential. Honestly, I think this would be fairly balanced at 2, except that it obsoletes estate...

185.   Spy
Another card which usually improves your deck, just that the other card is most often better. And the attack isn't that great, on the whole. Although I have to say, it can be decent against money-based strategies, or anything which has to play a key card or only one of a couple as much as it can (but doesn't use an engine to do so). The strength of the attack is not so much giving them a bad card on top as skipping the good cards. Keep that in mind.

Eevee

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2013, 09:10:54 am »
0

Chansellor: Started from the bottom now we're.. where!?
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LastFootnote

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2013, 09:29:37 am »
0

I should probably add in as a difference that these rankings are for full random across all sets as well. But I still appreciate the insights, of course! And I agree that other ways of playing are perfectly valid - just not what my rankings are dealing with.

I really appreciate you responding to my post, but it seems clear from your responses that you think I'm disagreeing with your rankings. Sorry for not being clear! I was aware your rankings were talking about full-random, 2-player games. You're saying these cards are bad, and I'm just saying, "Yeah, they're bad. Here's why some of them are bad!" It's just another perspective. That's why "counterpoint" wasn't the right word. Apologies if my tangent seemed like an argument!

Quote
Transmute: OK, here's where my experience diverges. In a game with 4 or 5 Alchemy cards, Transmute tends to usually be a go-to card. First, you're buying the Potion anyway. Ideally, you're picking up a Transmute with an extra buy, but even if you're not, my experience tells me you want it early. Even if it means waiting on that second Apothecary, or whatever. Turning your Estates into Gold is great, but in an Alchemy game it's even more crucial for two reasons. Well, one reason, really: you tend to want to use all your buys on Actions. First because when a Potion hand comes up you want to spend that Potion rather than buying a Gold. Second because many Alchemy cards work better with more Actions in your deck. So you want a few Golds in your deck, but you don't want to buy them. Transmute to the rescue. In the endgame you're often turning some nice Actions into Duchies, and that's great too.
Yeah, I don't know. I mean, sure, it has its uses - everything does - but these to me also seem to be decks where okay, how badly do I really want gold anyway? Not very. And most any other form of gaining or remodeling or upgrading would be preferred, but okay, yeah, it's sometimes not available. Still, I think this deserves the low spot.

Quote
Philosopher's Stone: Like Transmute, Philosopher's Stone is way better in games with 4 or 5 Alchemy cards. "But wait," I hear you cry, "Philosopher's Stone is less useful in the kind of Action chain games that Alchemy is famous for!" Well, OK, yes. You're not going to buy Philosopher's Stones for your Scrying Pool deck or your Unstoppable Alchemist Stack™. But you are going to snap them up in a game with Familiar, Herbalist, University (without terminal draw), and even Golem. As with Transmute, the Potion is the biggest part of Philosopher's Stone's opportunity cost. Once you've got a Potion or two in your deck, Philosopher's Stones are often fantastic.
I feel like this is more or less what I was saying? The issue here is probably that in laying with like 5 alchemy cards is really disproportionate, because there are only 13, you are going to see combos all the time.

I'm guessing if you played a bunch of Alchemy-heavy games, you'd change your tune about these two (in terms of how they play in Alchemy-heavy games, not where they appear on your power rankings).
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werothegreat

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #20 on: June 30, 2013, 10:56:10 am »
+2

Disagreements so far:

Feast: Yes, Silver is better, but I don't always want Silver.  I just want to guarantee I get that Witch or Wharf or whatever next shuffle.  Maybe I'm doing a Scrying Pool engine and I want to ditch all my Treasures, not add to them.

Mine: Mine is a great card!  Yes, there are other cards that are more powerful than it, and it may just be a "terminal Copper", but the point is to get it early (your first $5, preferably) so it can be used often.  It's one of the lynchpins of the First Game engine, turning your Coppers into Golds for Remodel to turn into Provinces.

Pirate Ship: This can be underrated and overrated.  It doesn't need to be in a 4-player game, and there doesn't need to be +Buy.  Just get a couple of them, hit your opponent 4-5 times, and now you're buying a Province whenever it's in your hand.

Philosopher's Stone: This is great in sloggy games.  True, you won't see it or your Potion very often, but when you do, It can easily add a Province to your Gardens deck.

Taxman: You don't understand this card.

Trade Route: Trashing is nice at the beginning of the game, though admittedly Forager is essentially the better version of this.  Whether to buy an Estate or not becomes a strategic decision (which I find interesting), but even just being able to trash a little can help you out, and then it becomes a powerhouse later in the game.

Rats: You read my article on this, right?  The whole point of this card is for other things to trash it.  So yes, without cost- or type-caring TfBs in the kingdom, Rats is useless - but there will usually be some sort of cost- or type-caring TfB in the kingdom.  Is it worth the opportunity cost to buy a single Rats before buying your Bishop or Salvager or Apprentice?  YES.

Otherwise I'm agreeing with everything so far.
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liopoil

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #21 on: June 30, 2013, 11:11:59 am »
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Question: How are you ranking these cards? I mean, are you ranking them by:

- how much the card will make a difference to either your overall strategy or the game when it's in the kingdom?
- how powerful the card is when it's in your hand (in games in which buying it is a good idea), as in, how much it will benefit your turn?
- how often buying the card is a good move?
- a combination of the second and third above?
- how much the card helps your deck when you buy it

(and of course, all of the above include "relative to the card's cost")

I ask because just saying "I'm ranking the cards by how "good" or "powerful" it is" can be vague. As an example, pearl diver is not powerful at all, but in a kingdom with no other 2 costs you will usually buy it when you have 2 coins. On the other hand, Outpost is a card that isn't good all that often, but in some engines can be crazy powerful. If you were to ask me "which card do you think is better, pearl diver or outpost?" I would have a hard time answering that without clarification.
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heron

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #22 on: June 30, 2013, 11:16:49 am »
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Taxman: You don't understand this card.


Could you elaborate on this card? Although I've never played with it yet (or at least never bought it), it looks pretty useless.
It looks like a worse version of Mine to me.

Edit: Maybe should be a new thread?
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Just a Rube

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #23 on: June 30, 2013, 11:38:33 am »
+1

I'm guessing if you played a bunch of Alchemy-heavy games, you'd change your tune about these two (in terms of how they play in Alchemy-heavy games, not where they appear on your power rankings).
You'd probably change your tune about Mine as well. It loves potions.
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markusin

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #24 on: June 30, 2013, 11:40:28 am »
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#205 Scout
Right away, we can see something important about how the list is made. The bottom card in the list, Scout, is really not nearly the one that would usually do the most harm to your deck, should you add it to the random deck. It's all about what does the least good. This is important, because with the exception of swindler (and in convoluted situations, ambassador and masquerade), you aren't going to be forced to have a card you don't want in your deck. So the worst a card can be is you don't buy it, and get something else instead. Ergo, the card gets measured about what it adds when you do want as well as how often it is better than the alternatives which are available. It's all about the opportunity cost.

This detail about the rankings explains to me why Chancellor and Vagrant aren't in the bottom 20. Chancellor can be pretty unreliable, but the potential benefit of reshuffling your deck early is considerable. Vagrant is another cheap cantrip like Pearl Diver that you often just buy for the cantrip effect at 2$, but it has the potential to increase your hand size. I'm really starting to appreciate the benefits of increasing hand size, and Vagrant doesn't have the same opportunity cost as Scout.

I also agree with the sentiment that Treasure Map, even with early collision, is not enough to win games where powerful engines are available, or Colony games for that matter.

I'm curious to know how you rank the really high power defiance cards such as Counting House and Coppersmith, WanderingWinder.
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