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Author Topic: WW's Power Rankings  (Read 235735 times)

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Vermillion

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #275 on: July 10, 2013, 05:30:06 pm »
0

This is a futile endeavor, a parlor game (....based on a parlor game....?)




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Awaclus

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #276 on: July 10, 2013, 08:02:34 pm »
+2

I don't see how Bank is so much higher than Expand. The only real problems with Expand are:
1. It costs $7
2. It's not good if you have a small hand size.

Bank has the exact same problems, and in the games where these problems are avoidable, it seems Expand is better much more often.
But Expand has a lot of potential to be a $7 Confusion in games where it doesn't shine, while Bank is rarely worse than Gold.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #277 on: July 10, 2013, 08:06:11 pm »
+10

I don't see how Bank is so much higher than Expand. The only real problems with Expand are:
1. It costs $7
2. It's not good if you have a small hand size.

Bank has the exact same problems, and in the games where these problems are avoidable, it seems Expand is better much more often.

Four reasons, roughly in increasing order of importance:
1. Bank is usually at least gold, and very often a tiny bit better.
2. Bank has way more upside.
3. Bank is a treasure which can't be drawn dead, whereas expand is a terminal action.
4. I have overrated bank here.

HiveMindEmulator

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #278 on: July 10, 2013, 11:06:27 pm »
0

But Expand has a lot of potential to be a $7 Confusion in games where it doesn't shine, while Bank is rarely worse than Gold.
Yeah, but you know that in advance, so you just buy Gold instead. This point was mentioned at the start of the lists. It's not about how bad a card can be, since you can just not buy it.

2. Bank has way more upside.
Not sure about this. So it can be +$10 or something ridiculous. But you can KC Expand or something, and get something equally, if not more, ridiculous.
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ednever

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #279 on: July 11, 2013, 12:07:17 am »
+3

But Expand has a lot of potential to be a $7 Confusion in games where it doesn't shine, while Bank is rarely worse than Gold.
Yeah, but you know that in advance, so you just buy Gold instead. This point was mentioned at the start of the lists. It's not about how bad a card can be, since you can just not buy it.

2. Bank has way more upside.
Not sure about this. So it can be +$10 or something ridiculous. But you can KC Expand or something, and get something equally, if not more, ridiculous.

I think I like Expand more than WW, but I agree with bank surpassing it. At least in frequency of it dramatically influencing the game.

Expand's most frequent use in my opinion is to turn Estates into power $5 cards, and then convert $5 cards into Provinces in the end game (or sometimes just turn Provibce into Province to end while you are ahead. Yes, Remodel and Salvager can do that at $4, but those cards aren't always in the same kingdom).
Expand can be crazy in a KC engine, but that's about it. And a quarter of the cards in the game get crazy with a KC engine.

Bank's core use is anytime you can draw a big hand, are using treasure for $s and get one or more +buys. Which is maybe a quarter of the engine decks out there. And it gets really ridiculous when you have lots of +buys and you can draw your whole deck of treasure (Wharf and Apothecary engines immediately come to mind, but even the "first game" kingdom does this.)

Not a bad exercise: replace Woodcutter in that kingdom with a card and compare it to a different card to see what impact it would have. You may not even want Expand, but you definitely would use Bank in that Kingdom.

Ed
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Krarks_pinky

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #280 on: July 15, 2013, 03:24:04 pm »
0

Hoping there's more to this thread... :)
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #281 on: July 15, 2013, 03:37:38 pm »
+5

The problem with doing this kind of project is that if you get a little too busy to keep doing it as quickly as planned, people get impatient. Qvist knows all about that :)
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mail-mi

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #282 on: July 15, 2013, 04:07:36 pm »
0

169.   Counting House
...and lack of +buy to take advantage of the huge effect it can give you.
Try it with Counterfeit. Just play it last so you don't have to trash your coppers.
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SCSN

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #283 on: July 15, 2013, 04:15:48 pm »
+1

Counterfeit's trashing is optional regardless of when you play it.
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clb

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #284 on: July 15, 2013, 04:17:48 pm »
+1

169.   Counting House
...and lack of +buy to take advantage of the huge effect it can give you.
Try it with Counterfeit. Just play it last so you don't have to trash your coppers.

Counterfeit's trashing is optional. It also costs $5; when do you buy it? I do like that it provides a +buy w/o requiring an action.
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ftl

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #285 on: July 15, 2013, 04:26:48 pm »
+1

As do other sources of nonterminal +buy: looking up on the wiki, those would be Hamlet, Market, Market Square, Worker's Village, Candlestick Maker, Counterfeit, Festival, Pawn.

I bet the cheap ones that also give money - so, Pawn, Candlestick Maker - would be the best CH enablers.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #286 on: July 15, 2013, 07:24:50 pm »
+4

Hoping there's more to this thread... :)
There is. Had a family wedding over the weekend. Ate most of my last week. Should post next part tonight or tomorrow.

microman

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #287 on: July 15, 2013, 07:48:03 pm »
+1

As do other sources of nonterminal +buy: looking up on the wiki, those would be Hamlet, Market, Market Square, Worker's Village, Candlestick Maker, Counterfeit, Festival, Pawn.

I bet the cheap ones that also give money - so, Pawn, Candlestick Maker - would be the best CH enablers.
However, Counterfeit can never be drawn dead, unlike any action, terminal or non-terminal.
That is what makes couterfeit SO POWERFUL!
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ftl

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #288 on: July 15, 2013, 07:50:00 pm »
+2

None of those will be drawn dead either if you're not putting any terminal draw in your deck. Which you're probably not, in a counting house deck. I guess pawn can be terminal draw? Still.

I can't tell whether you're being sarcastic or not.
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Just a Rube

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #289 on: July 15, 2013, 08:23:37 pm »
+5

Hoping there's more to this thread... :)
There is. Had a family wedding over the weekend. Ate most of my last week. Should post next part tonight or tomorrow.
There goes my hypothesis of a 114-way tie.
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Sade

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #290 on: July 15, 2013, 08:28:59 pm »
+6

Had a family wedding over the weekend. Ate most of my last week.

Man, that must have been one giant feast.
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SirPeebles

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #291 on: July 15, 2013, 08:38:37 pm »
+5

Had a family wedding over the weekend. Ate most of my last week.

Man, that must have been one giant feast.

Could gain a Province playing a Feast that big...
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Tables

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #292 on: July 15, 2013, 10:12:52 pm »
+5

Had a family wedding over the weekend. Ate most of my last week.

Man, that must have been one giant feast.

Could gain a Province playing a Feast that big...
True. I'm going to guess he travelled along sufficient highways, at least.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

ipofanes

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #293 on: July 16, 2013, 03:58:04 am »
+1

169.   Counting House
...and lack of +buy to take advantage of the huge effect it can give you.
Try it with Counterfeit. Just play it last so you don't have to trash your coppers.

Counterfeit's trashing is optional. It also costs $5; when do you buy it? I do like that it provides a +buy w/o requiring an action.

So does Contraband, but I'm willing to concede that you seeing the number of coppers I am picking up gives away a *bit* of advice whch card to block.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #294 on: July 16, 2013, 07:40:16 am »
+3

114.   Wishing Well
Though rarely a game-breaker, this card is most often useful. My favorite is to get one early. On turn 4, if you are tracking your deck, it always hits. As it gets toward middle and late game, though, it almost invariably gets to having pretty low chances of success.

113.   Advisor
Obviously this card needs some help. Basically you want some kind of sifter and/or cantrips and/or engines. But in an established engine, it can be virtually a lab. Of course, it can actually be very harmful to your deck as well, particularly if there are one or two key cards you want to play, as this can just make them miss the reshuffle.

112.   University
This card is very slow, and the village effect of necropolis is really quite weak. Very often it's a trap card. But when it is powerful, it can be *extremely* powerful. Few cards just let you gain 5s.

111.   Quarry
Needs +buy to do most anything (oh sure, it can help you get to the more expensive actions, but silver does almost as well for this), but there are numerous situations with +buy where this really helps you get double $5-action, or pick up lots of cheaper actions basically free, and there it is most useful. Also leads to 3-pile ending control in a lot of cases where buys are plentiful.

110.   Village
Yup.

109.   Hunting Grounds
I am not sure whether the on-trash is more of a benefit or a hindrance overall. Anyway, 4 cards is quite nice, but $6 is a bit steep.

108.   Forge
This card is generally pretty bad - by the time you can get it, it's often not too useful anymore. But there are situations where it can be tremendous, as your engine is just coming together, or with some way for a single huge draw turn, or in actually using it for its benefit t the right moment, or when you luckily spike one early on.

107.   Venture
As others have pointed out, this is basically a peddler variant. Well, it tends to run somewhere between silver and gold, though exceeding gold isn't so rare.

106.   Oasis
Another pretty high skill card. It's like a cross between silver and warehouse. If both of those were on the board, you would usually want one or the other more. But not always. And those are both pretty good cards, so the in-between is quite reasonable as well, if never game-breaking.

105.   Council Room
A real star with handsize-decreasers in engines, but not terrible in general. Giving your opponent a free lab is pretty big, but the main effect is essentially a little better than wharf and, alert, that's pretty good.

104.   City
Another card which can be pretty bad, but can also be pretty powerful. The thing is, the one-pile-empty version of these is often better than lab, but not all that much so - you tend to not need so many actions if not for draw cards. Still, it can just make an engine by itself. You just have to make sure the pay-off at the end is good enough and you will have enough time to make things worth it, because cities are a slow plan as well.

SirPeebles

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #295 on: July 16, 2013, 09:07:07 am »
+19

106.   Oasis
Another pretty high skill card. It's like a cross between silver and warehouse. If both of those were on the board, you would usually want one or the other

What sort of crazy fantasy is this?  Both Warehouse and Silver on the board?
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achmed_sender

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #296 on: July 16, 2013, 09:38:52 am »
0

107.   Venture
As others have pointed out, this is basically a peddler variant. Well, it tends to run somewhere between silver and gold, though exceeding gold isn't so rare.

I've expected Venture to be at least in the Top 100 cards. It's 99% more valuable than Silver, quite good against Junk (unless Copper) and with solid Treasure-Trashing or in Colony games it's not rare better than Gold. Not talking about Venture chains which can quarantuee a Province by having in hand only one of them. Of course, it costs 5$, so theres a lot of opportunity cost, but compared to the other cards of this section, Venture should be better.



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Warfreak2

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #297 on: July 16, 2013, 10:06:37 am »
0

I think the problem with Venture is, if you are able to trash your Coppers away, there's usually something better you could be doing.
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Young Nick

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #298 on: July 16, 2013, 11:05:40 am »
0

Venture also provides cycling. If you have 2-3 Ventures in your deck, you get more plays out of them than you might expect.

It also combos well with other treasures like Bank and Counterfeit as well as a lot of other things. If you have a thin deck with sifting, you can set yourself up real nice by using Ventures. It is more versatile than most think.
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Warfreak2

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Re: WW's Power Rankings
« Reply #299 on: July 16, 2013, 11:18:11 am »
+1

A thin deck with sifting? I don't know what one of those looks like, if I have a thin deck, what junk am I sifting through? My idea of a thin deck is one with little to no junk, and I can play all of my cards almost every turn; a $5 buy that increases my total economy by $1 doesn't seem like a good improvement to such a deck, and cycling is already superfluous.
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