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Author Topic: Duchess  (Read 4106 times)

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rinkworks

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Duchess
« on: October 25, 2011, 04:31:57 pm »
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I'm confused about why Duchess is the way that it is.  Specifically, the part where you can gain a Duchess whenever you gain a Duchy.  Can anybody infer what the rationale behind that bit of game design was?

I mean, thematically, I get that a Duchy might come with a Duchess, and it's a neat idea to have a card that makes Duchies more significant by letting you gain something else with you gain them.  But why is this that card?  I can't quite figure out why a 2-cost "+$2, everybody spies themselves" is the particular card called Duchess and comes with a Duchy.

My best guess is that maybe Duchess is good in Duke strategies, since maybe it helps you get to $5?  But it doesn't seem like Duchess is an unusually good card for ensuring $5 hands.  Certainly not in the way that, say, Horse Traders is.  Even plain old Silver is probably better on balance.  And regardless, it seems odd for Donald to have designed a whole card just to enable a single combo with a card that's usually not also going to be there.

I'm just wondering what I'm missing.  The last card that had me pondering the game design rationale for weeks on end was Followers:  I couldn't figure out why the "gain an Estate" was there.  I mean, I got that it was a penalty for using an otherwise powerful card, but it wasn't for ages before I figured out that the Estate makes it a near-perfect mirror of the attack portion (you get a +1 VP card and +2 cards; opponents get a -1 VP card and -2 cards).

I don't know if Duchess has some aesthetic touch like that that I'm missing, or if there is a whole strategy I'm missing, or what.  Maybe Duchy/Duchess is somehow a good opening for a Duchy-rush game?  Nah, can't be -- couldn't empty a third pile fast enough, surely.

Any insight?
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jonts26

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Re: Duchess
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2011, 04:44:31 pm »
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I'm just wondering what I'm missing.  The last card that had me pondering the game design rationale for weeks on end was Followers:  I couldn't figure out why the "gain an Estate" was there.  I mean, I got that it was a penalty for using an otherwise powerful card, but it wasn't for ages before I figured out that the Estate makes it a near-perfect mirror of the attack portion (you get a +1 VP card and +2 cards; opponents get a -1 VP card and -2 cards).

Wow. I have never realized that. That's fantastic!

In response to your original point ... I have no clue. I've yet to see a board where I want to get duchesses on the duchy gain.
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kn1tt3r

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Re: Duchess
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2011, 04:50:13 pm »
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It's not only that Duchy strategies become (slightly) better with Duchess, it's also that Duchess becomes better with Duchy (or other green) strategies. The Duchesses collide less often, the +2$ help, and the spy effect benefits you more than your opponents if there's more to spy away.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Duchess
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2011, 04:55:37 pm »
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Duchy+tunnel rush, maybe?
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rinkworks

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Re: Duchess
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2011, 05:34:49 pm »
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I'm just wondering what I'm missing.  The last card that had me pondering the game design rationale for weeks on end was Followers:  I couldn't figure out why the "gain an Estate" was there.  I mean, I got that it was a penalty for using an otherwise powerful card, but it wasn't for ages before I figured out that the Estate makes it a near-perfect mirror of the attack portion (you get a +1 VP card and +2 cards; opponents get a -1 VP card and -2 cards).
Wow. I have never realized that. That's fantastic!

Yeah, it is.  Slick bit of card design.  That said, seems to me like Ghost Ship is the more perfect mirror attack:  you put two cards from your deck into your hand, and they put two cards from their hands into their decks.
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Blooki

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Re: Duchess
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2011, 05:37:52 pm »
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As HiveMindEmulator has indirectly mentioned, I believe the most significant feature of the Duchess is that it's a pile that is easy to empty if you're rushing Duchies. How or why this works thematically is beyond me.
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popsofctown

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Re: Duchess
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2011, 09:38:27 pm »
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Well no matter what card is given the comes-with-duchy property it will be useful for rushes.

I think the theme is for you to reveal a Duchy and discard it, while your opponent reveals a more middle of the road card and can't get much benefit.  While that's not really a solid strategy, I think that's the feel you're supposed to get.
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Elyv

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Re: Duchess
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2011, 10:10:43 pm »
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In a trash-light/no +actions game, I've been willing to grab a duchess or two with my duchies in the lategame, since all the extra duchies reduce the possibility of my terminals colliding and a near-vanilla terminal silver is fine at that point.
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Davio

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Re: Duchess
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2011, 04:18:22 am »
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This Duchy/Duke/Duchess bot wins surprisingly often against BMU and some other Combos:

Code: [Select]
<player name="DDD" author="Davio" description="Duchies, Dukes and Duchesses!">
 <type name="UserCreated"/>
 <type name="TwoPlayer"/>
 <type name="Province"/>
 <type name="Bot"/>
   <buy name="Duchy"/>
   <buy name="Duke"/>
   <buy name="Silver"/>
   <buy name="Duchess"/>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="gainsNeededToEndGame"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="3.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Copper"/>
</player>

Then again, I wonder if it holds up in the real world.
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Geronimoo

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Re: Duchess
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2011, 04:52:40 am »
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This Duchy/Duke/Duchess bot wins surprisingly often against BMU and some other Combos:
The built in Duchess/Duke bot performs a little better (no need for Coppers)
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Davio

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Re: Duchess
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2011, 05:15:39 am »
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This Duchy/Duke/Duchess bot wins surprisingly often against BMU and some other Combos:
The built in Duchess/Duke bot performs a little better (no need for Coppers)
Ah, didn't know that it had one, I thought the Coppers were needed to get to $5 consistently.
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