Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1]

Author Topic: For all the Stefs and Marins: Can you beat Jack here?  (Read 1801 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

kn1tt3r

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 585
  • Respect: +278
    • View Profile
For all the Stefs and Marins: Can you beat Jack here?
« on: June 26, 2013, 07:07:56 am »
0

I recently played this kingdom, where I went basically for Jack/Money (with one Governor later, but prioritizing Gold over Govorner). My opponent tried to go for Governors (had a 5/2 opening), with one Jack mixed in later, and I won quite handily.

Kingdom:
Transmute
Haven
Menagerie
Smugglers
Coppersmith
Jack of All Trades
City
Governor
Stash
Tactician


Ok, no trashing except for Jack, no sifting except for Haven. So Governor doesn't look that interesting to me here (maybe at some point, but not primarily). I just think Jack will crush most engine attempts, and I would probably even open Jack with a 5/2 split (which should beway worse here though).

But well, what do all the engine experts here say about it? Can you possibly do something around Governor, Tactician, Haven, maybe Coppersmith? Especially if you think about a 5/2 opening split against a 4/3 of the starting playing player going for Jack - could it be worth it to try the alternative in that case, or will it be just too slow no matter what?
Logged

Rabid

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 840
  • Shuffle iT Username: Rabid
  • Respect: +641
    • View Profile
Re: For all the Stefs and Marins: Can you beat Jack here?
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2013, 08:29:33 am »
0

I would definitely try for the engine here, especially with 5/2.
Mostly because it is more fun :)

I don't think the engine wants Jack at all.
Coopersmith or Tactician seem like better terminals.
You probably want to use the Governor + card option more than usual as it devalues Jack.
And the + silver and trashing options really help the jack BM deck.
Logged
Twitch
1 Day Cup #1:Ednever

HiveMindEmulator

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2222
  • Respect: +2096
    • View Profile
Re: For all the Stefs and Marins: Can you beat Jack here?
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2013, 12:21:47 pm »
0

With no Copper-trashing, limited sifting, and the only +buy coming from Tactician or maxed City, I don't see any kind of engine beating Jack+Gov+money. The only question is what to do with 5/2. Options are:
1. Just have 1 less Silver and hope to get lucky somewhere else.
2. Start with Governor to get a faster Gold, hoping to buy more Golds and Governors faster, and using the +cards to buy Provinces.
3. Go for Tact/Coppersmith/Haven.
Logged

Dsell

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1289
  • He/Him
  • Respect: +921
    • View Profile
Re: For all the Stefs and Marins: Can you beat Jack here?
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2013, 12:38:36 pm »
0

All I'm saying is that I'd love to see another -Stef- vs. WanderingWinder game or two...maybe it could even become an instructional/experimental series...
Logged
"Quiet you, you'll lynch Dsell when I'm good and ready" - Insomniac


Winner of Forum Survivor Season 2!

HiveMindEmulator

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2222
  • Respect: +2096
    • View Profile
Re: For all the Stefs and Marins: Can you beat Jack here?
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2013, 01:00:21 pm »
0

I tried playing Tact/Coppersmith/Haven, and it looks like it's just about as good on 4/3 as 5/2 (though it's a 3 game sample...), and should be at least competitive with the Jack strategy.

The key is that the Havens can just push Coppers to Coppersmith turns and Coppersmiths to turns with more cards and pretty easily set up a double-Province Tactician turn or 2.

EDIT:
Here's a sample. I couldn't get the same kingdom since I don't have the Promos, and Warlord bot decides to buy Menageries for some reason, but at least you can look at how fast the Coppersmith strategy can be. This seems particularly fast, getting to play Tactician again on turn 11 after a double-Province turn 10. I played a couple others with just the Coppersmith combo and they were a couple turns slower, but it looks like 4 Provinces by turn 14 is normal.
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130626/log.5135b68ce4b07f4f52107e0e.1372267230289.txt
« Last Edit: June 26, 2013, 01:25:33 pm by HiveMindEmulator »
Logged

DG

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4074
  • Respect: +2614
    • View Profile
Re: For all the Stefs and Marins: Can you beat Jack here?
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2013, 01:27:31 pm »
+1

Tactician/coppersmith has play but I think governor+jack has more options and the options will make it better than stash+jack too. Stash+jack is worth consideration.
Logged

HiveMindEmulator

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2222
  • Respect: +2096
    • View Profile
Re: For all the Stefs and Marins: Can you beat Jack here?
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2013, 01:34:20 pm »
0

^It's not just Tactician/Coppersmith. It's Tactician/Coppersmith/Haven, which might push it over the edge.
Tactician/Coppersmith and Haven/Coppersmith are good combos, but not great. But if you put them together, it's actually pretty impressive.
Logged

kn1tt3r

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 585
  • Respect: +278
    • View Profile
Re: For all the Stefs and Marins: Can you beat Jack here?
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2013, 01:44:22 pm »
0

Tactician/coppersmith has play but I think governor+jack has more options and the options will make it better than stash+jack too. Stash+jack is worth consideration.

So you go Jack, and with a $5 you get Stash? Really? Governor has to be better, or not?
Logged

HiveMindEmulator

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2222
  • Respect: +2096
    • View Profile
Re: For all the Stefs and Marins: Can you beat Jack here?
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2013, 01:52:06 pm »
0

^Yeah, I agree. Stash is good in Terminal draw BM strategies since they shuffle more often. Jack BM doesn't shuffle that much, so while the Stash-clumping is nice, and clearly better than Silver, it's not *that* useful -- probably even slightly less useful than the other vanilla 5s (Lab, Market, Bazaar).
Logged

Robz888

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2624
  • Shuffle iT Username: Robz888
  • Respect: +3323
    • View Profile
Re: For all the Stefs and Marins: Can you beat Jack here?
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2013, 01:56:48 pm »
0

On a 5/2 start, the Governor stack has to be better than anything with Jack (and doesn't itself want Jack).
Logged
I have been forced to accept that lackluster play is a town tell for you.

DominionKing

  • Pawn
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4
  • Respect: 0
    • View Profile
Re: For all the Stefs and Marins: Can you beat Jack here?
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2013, 08:17:55 am »
0

At this Board there was no Tactician. I was the opponent...
Logged

kn1tt3r

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 585
  • Respect: +278
    • View Profile
Re: For all the Stefs and Marins: Can you beat Jack here?
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2013, 09:11:11 am »
0

At this Board there was no Tactician. I was the opponent...
I know, I've realized after my posting that I've confused Tactician and Swindler somehow. However, I left it as written because with Tactician the board seemed a bit more interesting to me (and a bit more shifted towards Governor). :)
Logged

mail-mi

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1215
  • Shuffle iT Username: mail-mi
  • Come play some Forum Mafia with us!
  • Respect: +1247
    • View Profile
Re: For all the Stefs and Marins: Can you beat Jack here?
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2013, 11:59:16 pm »
0

At this Board there was no Tactician. I was the opponent...
I know, I've realized after my posting that I've confused Tactician and Swindler somehow. However, I left it as written because with Tactician the board seemed a bit more interesting to me (and a bit more shifted towards Governor). :)
There was no swindler either.
Logged
I currently imagine mail-mi wearing a dark trenchcoat and a bowler hat, hunched over a bit, toothpick in his mouth, holding a gun in his pocket.  One bead of sweat trickling down his nose.

'And what is it that ye shall hope for? Behold I say unto you that ye shall have hope through the atonement of Christ and the power of his resurrection, to be raised unto life eternal, and this because of your faith in him according to the promise." - Moroni 7:41, the Book of Mormon

kn1tt3r

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 585
  • Respect: +278
    • View Profile
Re: For all the Stefs and Marins: Can you beat Jack here?
« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2013, 06:40:37 am »
0

At this Board there was no Tactician. I was the opponent...
I know, I've realized after my posting that I've confused Tactician and Swindler somehow. However, I left it as written because with Tactician the board seemed a bit more interesting to me (and a bit more shifted towards Governor). :)
There was no swindler either.

So how would you know that?

The actual board had Swindler instead of Tactician, which shifts things even a lot more towards Jack I think. Sorry that I posted the wrong board here, but since there is no log of this game, mistakes happen.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2013, 06:42:47 am by kn1tt3r »
Logged

mail-mi

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1215
  • Shuffle iT Username: mail-mi
  • Come play some Forum Mafia with us!
  • Respect: +1247
    • View Profile
Re: For all the Stefs and Marins: Can you beat Jack here?
« Reply #14 on: June 30, 2013, 01:04:09 pm »
0

At this Board there was no Tactician. I was the opponent...
I know, I've realized after my posting that I've confused Tactician and Swindler somehow. However, I left it as written because with Tactician the board seemed a bit more interesting to me (and a bit more shifted towards Governor). :)
There was no swindler either.

So how would you know that?

The actual board had Swindler instead of Tactician, which shifts things even a lot more towards Jack I think. Sorry that I posted the wrong board here, but since there is no log of this game, mistakes happen.
Oops didn't know you were the actual OP!
Logged
I currently imagine mail-mi wearing a dark trenchcoat and a bowler hat, hunched over a bit, toothpick in his mouth, holding a gun in his pocket.  One bead of sweat trickling down his nose.

'And what is it that ye shall hope for? Behold I say unto you that ye shall have hope through the atonement of Christ and the power of his resurrection, to be raised unto life eternal, and this because of your faith in him according to the promise." - Moroni 7:41, the Book of Mormon
Pages: [1]
 

Page created in 0.081 seconds with 20 queries.