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[Voltaire]

whatever the opposite of "benefit of the doubt" is

I am blowing the dog whistle on this, Voltaire. I think you are reading way too much of your own biases into this show and it is making this thread less than enjoyable to read.

You're going to need to be more clear, here. I'd love to try to constructively respond and talk about this here, and there's a chance I'm not articulating my views clearly, but all I have to react to right now is a statement that I'm making the thread un-fun for you.

[Voltaire]

Regarding what happened at the end, my understanding was that it was NOT the Doctor who shot the Master, it was the Cyberman. The Doctor was going to shoot the Master to save Clara the guilt, but right before he was going to shoot, a blue beam from off screen hits the Master. The blue haze the Master was "disolved" in looked slightly different than how a standard Cyberman shot would have looked, so it leaves it possibly ambiguous whether the Master was killed or beamed out right before the shot.

This. I haven't re-watched, but according to another fan, the Doctor was also holding the device in a different fashion than Missy, indicating that the Doctor was likely also preparing to use it on some setting other than "kill".

[Axxle]

I wouldn't be surprised if he uploaded her to the Gallifreyan hard drive or something. That wasn't destroyed or anything, right?

[Tables]

Do you see what I'm saying?

No... I really don't. Perhaps it depends on how Time Lord gender has been portrayed in the past, but I can't see the issue in terms of homophobia. It would seem bizarre in terms of character in general because of said history, though, regardless of gender.

Okay, I think I figured out what's going on.

Mine is about how it would come across to audience members in the real world.

Yours is about in-universe repercussions. Where I agree, there shouldn't be anything, really.

That clears things up in my head, at least.

Do you have that the other way around? I'm talking about the implications in the real world. Were you talking about how it was seen in universe then? That might make it make more sense, given the complete lack of real world implication.

[Voltaire]

No, I had it the right way the first time. Honestly though, it'd be such a small thing, it's not that important, and apparently I've offended one person and confused another, I'd rather just drop it.

[Asper]

No, I had it the right way the first time. Honestly though, it'd be such a small thing, it's not that important, and apparently I've offended one person and confused another, I'd rather just drop it.

Better drop it. I'm pretty certain no one's confused but two are offended.

[Kuildeous]

For what it's worth, here's my thought on whether it could be homophobic.

If the writers knew/planned from way back when that the Master was going to be a female later and would have a romantic interest in the Doctor, then it would be homophobic to purposefully avoid having dude Master have a romantic interest in the Doctor. I would accept that, yes.

As it is, the writers of the Master before didn't really know this was going to happen. They couldn't have made the conscious choice to avoid a relationship angle. That's like complaining that Clara didn't have a romantic interest with Osgood. There was simply no reason to throw that in.

Of course, it's all academic since there wasn't really a romance subplot, but even if that were, I do not think that makes them ex post facto homophobes. That just means they saw an opportunity and seized upon it. A bad judgment call, sure. I wouldn't defend the decision. Just because there is a boy and a girl doesn't mean there has to be romantic interests (see also, previous companions).

As for the Master really being dead, I've accepted as a quasi-axiom that if you see a person disappear, he may not be dead. If you see a person disappear with his skeleton glowing, then he's dead. I've seen that many times, especially in Time Heist and Bad Wolf (or whichever one it was that has the game shows).

[Voltaire]

And I would agree with that and I've apparently done such a terrible job of communicating that I've said something else entirely?   

[Kuildeous]

And I would agree with that and I've apparently done such a terrible job of communicating that I've said something else entirely?   

Hopefully my explanation will help?

In any case, I think we can all agree that it was terrible kill off Osgood, who showed promise during her return. After all, they poked fun at the scarf during the 50th anniversary and now they poked fun at the bow tie. But sometimes people don't stay dead, so maybe we'll see her come back.

[Asper]

And I would agree with that and I've apparently done such a terrible job of communicating that I've said something else entirely?   

I didn't mean to say it was your fault. Some people are offended over other people being offended. No offense.

[EFHW]

And I would agree with that and I've apparently done such a terrible job of communicating that I've said something else entirely?   

Hopefully my explanation will help?

In any case, I think we can all agree that it was terrible kill off Osgood, who showed promise during her return. After all, they poked fun at the scarf during the 50th anniversary and now they poked fun at the bow tie. But sometimes people don't stay dead, so maybe we'll see her come back.

I agree, it was terrible.

[Kirian]

As for the Master really being dead, I've accepted as a quasi-axiom that if you see a person disappear, he may not be dead. If you see a person disappear with his skeleton glowing, then he's dead. I've seen that many times, especially in Time Heist and Bad Wolf (or whichever one it was that has the game shows).

In any fantasy or SF, no one is dead for certain unless there's a body.  Even then, it's possible they're not as dead as you think, but at least if that's the case the body will get back up.  Probably.  See also:  The Wedding of River Song.

[Kirian]

And I would agree with that and I've apparently done such a terrible job of communicating that I've said something else entirely?   

I didn't mean to say it was your fault. Some people are offended over other people being offended. No offense.

I'm offended that you're not offended that some people are offended by other people being offended.

Or maybe it's just gas.

[werothegreat]

And I would agree with that and I've apparently done such a terrible job of communicating that I've said something else entirely?   

I didn't mean to say it was your fault. Some people are offended over other people being offended. No offense.

I'm offended that you're not offended that some people are offended by other people being offended.

Or maybe it's just gas.

OFFEND-INATE

[Teproc]

The finale was kind of bad but then again can anyone name a good Doctor Who finale ? Talking purely modern series since I haven't seen the classic.

I guess most people would say Pandorica Opens but I didn't like that either. I guess I just don't like it when Doctor Who goes big, because to me Doctor WHo works best with lower stakes.

As far as this season being awful Voltaire, I couldn't disagree more. This is the best season of Doctor Who Moffat's done, perhaps the best season of Modern Who. It took big swings, had a few misses and a few incredible hits, but more than in any Matt Smith season it felt weird and it felt like it was always trying things.

[jsh357]

The finale was kind of bad but then again can anyone name a good Doctor Who finale ? Talking purely modern series since I haven't seen the classic.

I guess most people would say Pandorica Opens but I didn't like that either. I guess I just don't like it when Doctor Who goes big, because to me Doctor WHo works best with lower stakes.

As far as this season being awful Voltaire, I couldn't disagree more. This is the best season of Doctor Who Moffat's done, perhaps the best season of Modern Who. It took big swings, had a few misses and a few incredible hits, but more than in any Matt Smith season it felt weird and it felt like it was always trying things.

I agree with all this, though I liked the finale a lot. 

[Kirian]

The finale was kind of bad but then again can anyone name a good Doctor Who finale ? Talking purely modern series since I haven't seen the classic.

I guess most people would say Pandorica Opens but I didn't like that either. I guess I just don't like it when Doctor Who goes big, because to me Doctor WHo works best with lower stakes.

I guess I look at things differently from many other Whovians; season finales are supposed to be big.  Perhaps it's because I grew up on big finales and cliffhangers with ST:TNG (I was laughing at people complaining about the "cliffhanger" that was Dark Water.  A week.  A whole week!  Lol, try three months.  Three months of "Holy shit, are they really going to kill Picard?")  Best of Both Worlds was huge; so were Redemption, Time's Arrow, and Descent.  Even some of Voyager's cliffhanger finales were great (Scorpion, in particular).

I absolutely loved Pandorica Opens/Big Bang and The Wedding of River Song.  The Name of the Doctor was great and was a true cliffhanger, though only about a month long and with multiple teasers and bonus stuff during that month.  Those episodes are clearly the best episodes of their respective seasons, unless we count Day of the Doctor as part of Season 7.

Army of Ghosts/Doomsday was great, as was Bad Wolf/Parting of the Ways. Turn Left/Stolen Earth/Journey's End was... OK.  We won't discuss Dobby Jesus Doctor.

[Teproc]

Oh I understand why episode finales are big, I just don't like it personally, which is fine, I know it and approach them with appropriate expectations.

I think my favorite season finale is probably Bad Wolf/Parting of the Ways, probably because the show was on a lower scale at that point. The problem when Doctor Who goes big is that it still looks silly, which becomes a problem when you're supposed to buy into a whole Cybermen invasion or that kind of stuff. I'm realizing this is probably a big part of why Midnight and Listen are my favorite episodes.

I would very strongly disagree with the idea that Pandorica Opens/Big Bang, The Wedding of River Song and The Name of the Doctor are the strongest episodes of their season, especially The Wedding of River Song which I downright hated. If you ask me, those would respectively be The Eleventh Hour, The Doctor's Wife and... well Nightmare in Silver but I guess season 7 is so all-around mediocre that I could see ranking the finale first there.

[ConMan]

I remember reading a book that included email exchanges with Russell T Davies while he was writing the Season 4 finale and the year of specials leading up to his and Tennant's departure from the show. In the very early drafts (as in, maybe even before that year started) he was thinking that he'd love for everything starting with Journey's End to get bigger and bigger, and then for the absolute final special to be extremely small - a single spaceship running adrift, with a family of random aliens inside, and the Doctor has to sacrifice himself to save them. It had a nice sound to it - the Doctor often goes on about how important the little people are, and this would have been the ultimate demonstration of that - but in the end, RTD decided that it had to be a big-ass finale and we got Last of the Time Lords. He did salvage a little of the original concept, though, in that he survived saving the universe without dying, and it was only in saving Wilfred that he had to make the sacrifice.

[werothegreat]

I just want to see more of River Song.  She's supposed to pop in and out of the Doctor's timeline - why should she stop just because they got married?

[Galzria]

I just want to see more of River Song.  She's supposed to pop in and out of the Doctor's timeline - why should she stop just because they got married?

I want to see her in a relationship with an older Doctor that would justify her statement in "Silence in the Library" of "Look at you. You're so much younger...". But that's simply never going to happen.

It's so tough. Doctor Who has SUCH a huge fanbase. There are those that absolutely loved River, like yourself, but there are those they've felt she's long, long outstayed her welcome.

Even here, there are those that have loved this last season (myself included), and those that have thought it was rather weak.

The simple fact is that there's no pleasing everybody. I've read so many fansites and comments and thoughts that it's ridiculous. I see those that were disappointed that the Missy arc was just seemingly randomly dropped into episodes until it mattered, and I've seen those that hate Moffat for being unable to do anything that doesn't take 20,000 episodes to explain.

I guess at the end of the day, at least for me, I take the outlook of: Love it or hate it, at least I HAVE it. I loved Christopher. Tennants first season was weaker than his others, and the sting of losing Christopher after 1 hurt. But he got better. Much better. To the point that Smith never really grew on me. He lacked a depth of age that Tennant, while still young, pulled off. Capaldi has been the best since Troughton for me. Simply amazing

At the end of the day, I'll take any of them. Christopher, David, Matt, Peter or whoever else is yet to come. I love Doctor Who. I think we all do, despite our disagreements on individual stories, writers, directors, cinematographers etc. And the one thing I think we'll all universally agree on is that what we have, love it or hate it, is better than losing it like before and having nothing at all.

Hum. #rantoff.

[Kirian]

I just want to see more of River Song.  She's supposed to pop in and out of the Doctor's timeline - why should she stop just because they got married?

I want to see her in a relationship with an older Doctor that would justify her statement in "Silence in the Library" of "Look at you. You're so much younger...". But that's simply never going to happen.

It's so tough. Doctor Who has SUCH a huge fanbase. There are those that absolutely loved River, like yourself, but there are those they've felt she's long, long outstayed her welcome.

I think part of my enjoyment of River is that I've been impressed with Alex Kingston as an actress since ER.  A show I stopped watching in ~2002...

[Kuildeous]

The simple fact is that there's no pleasing everybody. I've read so many fansites and comments and thoughts that it's ridiculous. I see those that were disappointed that the Missy arc was just seemingly randomly dropped into episodes until it mattered, and I've seen those that hate Moffat for being unable to do anything that doesn't take 20,000 episodes to explain.
 

I did find the Missy teases to be unnecessary. The finale would not have changed if they didn't include the Missy bits in the earlier episodes. It would have been different if they hinted at a villain we recognized or showed more of her plan. If Davros or some big bad was teased at the ends of those episodes, then the audience would have something to anticipate. As it was with some woman we've never seen before, we just idly say, "I wonder what that's all about," and then move on. Or at least I did. Maybe there were people who found that more interesting than I did. If so, then I'm not the target audience, and kudos to the writers.

But I wouldn't say I was disappointed. I just found them bland. I was far more disappointed with Robot Hood.

[EFHW]

I've been thinking about the extra Dr. #10, who is in the alternate universe with Rose.  #11 couldn't sit still for an hour watching the cubes, and I think he would miss his Tardis too, too much.  Even though he has Rose.  Maybe the two of them would look for the Dr. of that universe and join forces.

[EFHW]

I just want to see more of River Song.  She's supposed to pop in and out of the Doctor's timeline - why should she stop just because they got married?

I want to see her in a relationship with an older Doctor that would justify her statement in "Silence in the Library" of "Look at you. You're so much younger...". But that's simply never going to happen.

It's so tough. Doctor Who has SUCH a huge fanbase. There are those that absolutely loved River, like yourself, but there are those they've felt she's long, long outstayed her welcome.

I think part of my enjoyment of River is that I've been impressed with Alex Kingston as an actress since ER.  A show I stopped watching in ~2002...

They said a final goodbye in the Name of the Doctor. It wouldn't make sense to bring her back.  I miss Amy and Rory, too.  They could bring Jack Harkness back!  There is no storyline reason not to.