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Author Topic: Dr. Who  (Read 39925 times)

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ashersky

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Re: Dr. Who
« Reply #25 on: June 21, 2013, 03:49:03 am »
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I prefer Inspector Space-Time.

I prefer The Cape.  Or maybe the Kickpuncher franchise.

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Polk5440

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Re: Dr. Who
« Reply #26 on: June 21, 2013, 08:30:10 am »
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Based on what I've seen on Tumblr, the episode I'd want to watch is the one about Van Gogh.  I know the basic premise of Blink as well, and that would be interesting.

On the topic of sexism, I think this article is a decent summary of the concerns I'm talking about.  It's a bit milder than other criticisms I've seen.

I call PC police on this one. The premise is that the Doctor is practically a demi-god. River Song competes with him because she is, too. I don't see any complaining that the minor male characters surrounding the female companions are usually completely pathetic (Mickey I'm looking at you), at least at first, and would be terrible role models, too. This is perfectly fine because of the contrast that is the premise of the show. Not every character (or any character) in every show/movie/book ever has to be perfect example of their gender in order for the show to be entertaining or worthwhile.

The writer of the article will only be happy when the Doctor is female and the companion is male to "balance" the show out.

Also, no credit to Moffat for making more "rounded" aliens? The used to almost exclusively have bad intentions. Moffat gives more of them alternative motivation, or at least they're "misunderstood." That has to make the PC police at least a little happy.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2013, 08:34:17 am by Polk5440 »
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Kuildeous

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Re: Dr. Who
« Reply #27 on: June 21, 2013, 09:25:04 am »
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When Dr. Who first got rebooted, I refused to watch it because, like eHalcyon, I have completionist issues. I felt like I shouldn't watch the new season until I get around to watching to previous episodes. This went on quite a few years.

I started watching Who earlier this year. BBC America was going nuts with the new season, so I set up the DVR to record all episodes. This got a little nasty in terms of space, but I managed it mostly well.

My first episode was the Eleventh Hour, which was perfect for getting into it. I had known about the Doctor's regeneration, so I was able to grok exactly what was happening. Maybe if someone didn't know anything about the regeneration, he might have found the episode confusing and disjointed. I found the wordplay amusing. "Oh, they don't mean we'll incinerate just the house."

I caught a few more episodes in order, but BBC America was trying to showcase the best of Who, it seems, so it jumped around a bit. My wife and I joke that we feel like Time Lords because we watch the episodes all out of order. The only negative experience I had was watching Forest of the Dead. I didn't realize it was a two-parter, and somehow part 1 didn't get recorded. So I knew there were experiences leading up to it, but I had thought they were referring to earlier episodes. Still, I was able to follow along and realize what the foes were and how the suits worked. Still, when both parts were recorded later, I rewatched it and enjoyed the experience a lot more.

I still haven't caught up with the reboot. I have a lot of Donna and Rose episodes on my DVR. I don't feel like I've seen that much Martha, so I probably have even more catching up. I feel fairly confident that I've seen all of the Ponds, though.

I love River Song. I think she makes a great counterpoint to the godlike Doctor. In fact, when they're together, she's usually the one outdoing him. I like most of the villains, especially when they get pretty weird and surreal. Angels fall in this category (funnily enough, Blink was the third episode I saw with the Angels so by then, they were meh), as do the Silence. Even one-offs that are bizarre tickle me, such as the automatons in the episode with the giant space whale. The Daleks almost seem too mundane, though it's nice to see them pull a few tricks, such as the time they "help" Churchill. I don't loathe seeing Daleks, but when I see them, it's close to a "here we go again" moment. Still, I can enjoy the episodes regardless, so that's saying something. I have a hard time getting into the Cybermen. Maybe it's because they seem to be a rehash of the Borg (even though Cybermen actually predate the Borg).

I've not seen the classics but two. I watched most of the Aztec episode. I'm with WW; I could not finish that episode. The interesting part was whether history could be changed, and they resolved that before the end (I think). I saw the fifth Doctor vs. the Cybermen (who were not quite as mechanical as they are today).

I've been too busy to clean up my DVR lately. I don't know when we're making the switch to Google Fiber, but when it happens, we'll lose all our stored episodes. It's a worthy sacrifice.
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Davio

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Re: Dr. Who
« Reply #28 on: June 21, 2013, 09:36:13 am »
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My favorite quote is "Demons run when a good man goes to war." I like it when the Doctor shows his dark side.

Isn't that a light side?  Or is he the demon in the quote? :P

IIRC, he's the good man. But generally he's the one running. From basically everything.
Yeah, but don't make him angry. I love it when he's angry. I like how he's suffering from some sort of weltschmerz due to all the things he has seen.
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Tables

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Re: Dr. Who
« Reply #29 on: June 21, 2013, 09:56:17 am »
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I've been a Doctor Who fan (like just about every Sci-Fi fan I know...) since season 2 of the new series. I still want to watch Season 1, as well as the old seasons, but time and price are issues. I think Doctor Who is one of the best things on TV. It has reason and motive for every episode to be totally different, far more than a normal show, but keeps enough core and enough similarities for it to be easy to understand every time. And that huge variability keeps things fresh and interesting - there's the occasional dud episode (such as Rings of Akhatan this series), but mostly, you get high quality, reasonably unique, memorable episodes most weeks.

I think the second half of the last series was my favourite so far. Except the aforementioned Rings of Akhatan, and perhaps The Name of the Doctor, every episode was excellent. Clara was introduced very well and quickly felt entirely in place, and her mini story arc was well explored, with unexpected twists throughout.
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Polk5440

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Re: Dr. Who
« Reply #30 on: June 21, 2013, 10:11:05 am »
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My wife and I joke that we feel like Time Lords because we watch the episodes all out of order.

When I was watching older episodes, esp. Silence in the Library, I felt like I was on River Song's timeline because I had already seen season 5, "the future". Hey -- he's not my Doctor, either! No, I don't know you, Donna. Why aren't you in future seasons? That was pretty cool.
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Re: Dr. Who
« Reply #31 on: June 21, 2013, 10:23:57 am »
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I still want to watch Season 1, as well as the old seasons, but time and price are issues.

They're available on Netflix streaming (free for a month if you just want to watch that, and I think $8/mo after that.)
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Re: Dr. Who
« Reply #32 on: June 21, 2013, 01:24:09 pm »
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I am confused by people referring to some of the old classic Who's as things like 'the episode The Aztecs'. These were all multi-episode serials. Are people missing that, or am I just being overly pedantic here?

Actually, this past season was the *least* favorite of the reboot for me. Well, the first half in particular, I don't know, didn't do much for me. And the second half started off pretty meh, though the last few episodes were reasonably nice.

Galzria

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Re: Dr. Who
« Reply #33 on: June 21, 2013, 01:43:34 pm »
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I am confused by people referring to some of the old classic Who's as things like 'the episode The Aztecs'. These were all multi-episode serials. Are people missing that, or am I just being overly pedantic here?

Actually, this past season was the *least* favorite of the reboot for me. Well, the first half in particular, I don't know, didn't do much for me. And the second half started off pretty meh, though the last few episodes were reasonably nice.

The general sense in reference is that, while the story is comprised of serials, it's still a 'single story', thus the use of 'episode'. Also, it's possible that those referring to "The episode The Aztecs" may have seen it through the 50th anniversary specials, in which they are running classic stories (all serials within a story) as a single episode (cutting out opening/ending credits of each serial, as well as the overlap for "previously on").
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Blitz:
TOWN Wins: ZM11, ZM13
TOWN Losses: ZM3, ZM5, ZM6, ZM8, ZM9, ZM10
SCUM Wins: ZM1
SCUM Losses: ZM4

Total Wins: 3
Total Losses: 7

Normal Games:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Traitor)

Total Wins: 12
Total Losses: 10

Other:
TOWN Wins: DM1, BM4, BM4, BM5, BM8, BM13, DoM1, OZ2, RM45
TOWN Losses: BM1, BM2, BM3, BM6, BM11, RM3, RM4
SCUM Wins: DM3, BM7, RM1, RM2
SCUM Losses: BM9, OZ1

Total Wins: 13
Total Losses: 9

DG

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Re: Dr. Who
« Reply #34 on: June 21, 2013, 01:46:36 pm »
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When I was young, probably about ten, I read a lot of Doctor Who books that were written from the TV shows. That was before video recorders so I was never able to watch as much Doctor Who as I read. By the time it got to the fifth/sixth doctor it was going downhill and I've never been interested in the reboot. It's probably because I expect the doctor to be played by someone over 50 who looks like a senior academic but then acts like an eccentric, rather than someone who looks like an upstart student. My favorite doctor was of course Tom Baker, the one I first started watching, although I'd give a nod to Jon Pertwee as well. I liked the films made with Peter Cushing as the doctor as well but they'll look incredibly dated now.
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Kuildeous

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Re: Dr. Who
« Reply #35 on: June 21, 2013, 02:08:25 pm »
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The general sense in reference is that, while the story is comprised of serials, it's still a 'single story', thus the use of 'episode'. Also, it's possible that those referring to "The episode The Aztecs" may have seen it through the 50th anniversary specials, in which they are running classic stories (all serials within a story) as a single episode (cutting out opening/ending credits of each serial, as well as the overlap for "previously on").

That is exactly what I was referring to, and I hazarded a guess that it was also what WW was referring to.

I did not know that they cut those episodes and strung them together. That makes more sense of what I saw. I thought it strange that the "episode" lasted so long. I knew that episodes in the '60s weren't generally long (I do have the Prisoner). So, out of curiosity, could someone in the know tell me how many episodes were strung together for the 50th-anniversary special of the 1st Doctor?

And did the 5th Doctor special get the same treatment? The one where a companion first dies?

I found the retrospectives fascinating. I saw the first five back-to-back (followed by the 5th Doctor special). It's neat how some of the elements in the reboot (such an inappropriate term….let's call it continuation) have been around for a long time. Davros, for example, and the Master. These characters seemed like they would have been introduced in the new seasons, but nope. They've been introduced decades before.
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Galzria

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Re: Dr. Who
« Reply #36 on: June 21, 2013, 02:18:43 pm »
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The general sense in reference is that, while the story is comprised of serials, it's still a 'single story', thus the use of 'episode'. Also, it's possible that those referring to "The episode The Aztecs" may have seen it through the 50th anniversary specials, in which they are running classic stories (all serials within a story) as a single episode (cutting out opening/ending credits of each serial, as well as the overlap for "previously on").

That is exactly what I was referring to, and I hazarded a guess that it was also what WW was referring to.

I did not know that they cut those episodes and strung them together. That makes more sense of what I saw. I thought it strange that the "episode" lasted so long. I knew that episodes in the '60s weren't generally long (I do have the Prisoner). So, out of curiosity, could someone in the know tell me how many episodes were strung together for the 50th-anniversary special of the 1st Doctor?

And did the 5th Doctor special get the same treatment? The one where a companion first dies?

I found the retrospectives fascinating. I saw the first five back-to-back (followed by the 5th Doctor special). It's neat how some of the elements in the reboot (such an inappropriate term….let's call it continuation) have been around for a long time. Davros, for example, and the Master. These characters seemed like they would have been introduced in the new seasons, but nope. They've been introduced decades before.

The Aztecs was 4 Serials long: Temple of Evil, The Warriors of Death, The Bride of Sacrifice, and The Day of Darkness.

Earthshock was also 4 Serials long, although they were simply Part One - Part Four.
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Blitz:
TOWN Wins: ZM11, ZM13
TOWN Losses: ZM3, ZM5, ZM6, ZM8, ZM9, ZM10
SCUM Wins: ZM1
SCUM Losses: ZM4

Total Wins: 3
Total Losses: 7

Normal Games:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Traitor)

Total Wins: 12
Total Losses: 10

Other:
TOWN Wins: DM1, BM4, BM4, BM5, BM8, BM13, DoM1, OZ2, RM45
TOWN Losses: BM1, BM2, BM3, BM6, BM11, RM3, RM4
SCUM Wins: DM3, BM7, RM1, RM2
SCUM Losses: BM9, OZ1

Total Wins: 13
Total Losses: 9

Kuildeous

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Re: Dr. Who
« Reply #37 on: June 21, 2013, 02:48:49 pm »
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Holy cow. Okay, that explains a great deal. I thought that the pace seemed to be off a bit on those. I chalked it up to just general awkwardness due to budget and technology of the day.

Kind of makes me wonder what they're going to choose for the 9th, 10th, and 11th Doctors. Guess I'll start to find out in September.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Dr. Who
« Reply #38 on: June 21, 2013, 04:00:53 pm »
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Based on what I've seen on Tumblr, the episode I'd want to watch is the one about Van Gogh.  I know the basic premise of Blink as well, and that would be interesting.

On the topic of sexism, I think this article is a decent summary of the concerns I'm talking about.  It's a bit milder than other criticisms I've seen.

I call PC police on this one. The premise is that the Doctor is practically a demi-god. River Song competes with him because she is, too. I don't see any complaining that the minor male characters surrounding the female companions are usually completely pathetic (Mickey I'm looking at you), at least at first, and would be terrible role models, too. This is perfectly fine because of the contrast that is the premise of the show. Not every character (or any character) in every show/movie/book ever has to be perfect example of their gender in order for the show to be entertaining or worthwhile.

The writer of the article will only be happy when the Doctor is female and the companion is male to "balance" the show out.

Also, no credit to Moffat for making more "rounded" aliens? The used to almost exclusively have bad intentions. Moffat gives more of them alternative motivation, or at least they're "misunderstood." That has to make the PC police at least a little happy.

Would it be problematic to have a female Doctor? :P

But anyway, I highly doubt that's what the author is after.  She begins the article by lauding earlier seasons for properly portraying women as "complex, interesting human beings".

I'm more concerned about things like this:

Quote
Amy was confused about River’s behaviour, and asks, “I don’t get it, one minute she wants to marry you, the next she wants to kill you!” The Doctor replies: “She’s been brainwashed, it probably makes sense to her. Plus, she’s a woman.”

I mean, OK, it's a joke I guess.  Haha, women are crazy and have crazy mood swings?  It's bothersome. 

The amount of criticism out there is pretty amazing, and to brush it off as "PC Police" does it a disservice.  This conversation is prompting me to go look into it a bit more.

And here's an interesting quotation from Moffat:

Quote
There’s this issue you’re not allowed to discuss: that women are needy. Men can go for longer, more happily, without women. That’s the truth. We don’t, as little boys, play at being married—we try to avoid it for as long as possible. Meanwhile women are out there hunting for husbands.

Man, that's sexist.

But I fear we are veering into RSP.  I will say that I know DW is still a good show that I will probably get into it eventually. :P
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Kuildeous

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Re: Dr. Who
« Reply #39 on: June 21, 2013, 04:12:02 pm »
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I think that a female Doctor would be smashing. And you know, with that quote where he demeans River Song by attributing her psychotic mood swings to being female, the entire first episode could be dedicated to the Doctor coming to grips with this new body.

I read that it's not going to happen. I forget who said it (BBC executive?), but someone said that it would be just too confusing for children to see a man change into a woman. Because everything else on that show makes so much sense. But I hope it does happen.

I thought the actress who played the TARDIS in the Doctor's Wife was brilliant. She just as easily could play the Doctor.
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Polk5440

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Re: Dr. Who
« Reply #40 on: June 21, 2013, 05:45:33 pm »
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Would it be problematic to have a female Doctor? :P

No. But neither do you need one to enjoy what the show has to offer or to prove the show isn't promoting sexism.

I guess I just disagree that the lead women in the earlier seasons were somehow "stronger."

I am surprised criticism is prevalent. Maybe it has to do with its status as a popular family show? Where having perfectly "properly portrayed" characters or PC theme is most important? And given what's on TV, Doctor Who is very benign (if there's a theme or morality pushed, it's usually some variation of "it's good to help people even at personal cost"); it's partly why I watch it.

Maybe my threshold for boycotting certain media is just looser than yours, which is fine, too.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Dr. Who
« Reply #41 on: June 21, 2013, 06:01:41 pm »
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Would it be problematic to have a female Doctor? :P

No. But neither do you need one to enjoy what the show has to offer or to prove the show isn't promoting sexism.

I guess I just disagree that the lead women in the earlier seasons were somehow "stronger."

I am surprised criticism is prevalent. Maybe it has to do with its status as a popular family show? Where having perfectly "properly portrayed" characters or PC theme is most important? And given what's on TV, Doctor Who is very benign (if there's a theme or morality pushed, it's usually some variation of "it's good to help people even at personal cost"); it's partly why I watch it.

Maybe my threshold for boycotting certain media is just looser than yours, which is fine, too.

I haven't mentioned boycotting.  Just concern.

Criticism seems not to be that the women have to be perfect or "strong".  Far from it.  It just seems that the vast, vast majority of Moffat's female characters always seem to end up being defined by either husbands or children, as if all women are simply destined for marrying and/or breeding.  Real people are more complicated than that.

But it is a complicated issue and I am not familiar with the show, so it is difficult to discuss.
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Galzria

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Re: Dr. Who
« Reply #42 on: June 21, 2013, 06:08:10 pm »
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Woman Doctor? :



Although that might not address the 'sexism' complaint... ;D
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Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.


Blitz:
TOWN Wins: ZM11, ZM13
TOWN Losses: ZM3, ZM5, ZM6, ZM8, ZM9, ZM10
SCUM Wins: ZM1
SCUM Losses: ZM4

Total Wins: 3
Total Losses: 7

Normal Games:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Traitor)

Total Wins: 12
Total Losses: 10

Other:
TOWN Wins: DM1, BM4, BM4, BM5, BM8, BM13, DoM1, OZ2, RM45
TOWN Losses: BM1, BM2, BM3, BM6, BM11, RM3, RM4
SCUM Wins: DM3, BM7, RM1, RM2
SCUM Losses: BM9, OZ1

Total Wins: 13
Total Losses: 9

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Re: Dr. Who
« Reply #43 on: June 21, 2013, 07:15:00 pm »
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Would it be problematic to have a female Doctor? :P

No. But neither do you need one to enjoy what the show has to offer or to prove the show isn't promoting sexism.

I guess I just disagree that the lead women in the earlier seasons were somehow "stronger."

I am surprised criticism is prevalent. Maybe it has to do with its status as a popular family show? Where having perfectly "properly portrayed" characters or PC theme is most important? And given what's on TV, Doctor Who is very benign (if there's a theme or morality pushed, it's usually some variation of "it's good to help people even at personal cost"); it's partly why I watch it.

Maybe my threshold for boycotting certain media is just looser than yours, which is fine, too.

I haven't mentioned boycotting.  Just concern.

Criticism seems not to be that the women have to be perfect or "strong".  Far from it.  It just seems that the vast, vast majority of Moffat's female characters always seem to end up being defined by either husbands or children, as if all women are simply destined for marrying and/or breeding.  Real people are more complicated than that.

But it is a complicated issue and I am not familiar with the show, so it is difficult to discuss.
You really don't have a leg to stand on here. You're judging the guy as a sexist for things other people have said about him. Go look at the stuff yourself, then come back with an opinion.

I mean, seriously, let's go through his female Dr. Who characters:

The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances: Nancy - takes care of children in the London Blitz. Eh, it's somehow traditional, of course, but she does it in a strong way, and I have a problem with having a problem with women doing traditional things. Being forced to do them, sure. But doing them at all, no.

The Girl in the Fireplace: Madame de Pompadour is based on a historical figure. There are pros and cons, yes, but at least she takes a keen interest. I grant you that she is largely the one getting rescued, but again, historical figure.

Blink: Hard to find a better strong female character than Sally Sparrow, no? She is trespassing, breaking into places, adventuring, detectiving, working things out, saving the day. By far the protagonist of the episode, much more than even the Doctor.

Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead: There are a few here. Ms. Evangelista is a bit of a ditz, but at least it's pointed out that she's not worthless, though other characters think that. Anita, she's like the pilot or something? She doesn't do that much, just a minor character, like either of the Daves. CAL is a child, and actually she's saved everyone. And ok, Professor River Song. She basically takes charge, well, along with the Doctor, and overrules him to make the self-sacrifice at the end. Later on, she is basically *always* taking charge of the situation.

Amy Pond: Also takes charge, to the point that the other character's are joked as being subservient to her, and her husband is Mr. Pond at the wedding, "Wait, that's not how it works... yeah, yeah it is."

I mean, it's not perfect, I grant, but it's not near the top half of problems I see towards women on TV.

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Re: Dr. Who
« Reply #44 on: June 21, 2013, 07:28:46 pm »
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No, I acknowledge that I'm not in a place to really discuss it before looking at it myself.  I'm just saying, these are concerns I've been exposed to and they seem legitimate (especially regarding some of the things Moffat himself has said in interviews and such).  My stance on it is only mild concern as an observer, having not watched those episodes myself.  Don't get me wrong, I am still interested in checking out the series in the future.
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Polk5440

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Re: Dr. Who
« Reply #45 on: June 21, 2013, 07:33:15 pm »
+2

"Spoilers" :-*
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Tables

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Re: Dr. Who
« Reply #46 on: June 22, 2013, 10:25:14 am »
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I still want to watch Season 1, as well as the old seasons, but time and price are issues.

They're available on Netflix streaming (free for a month if you just want to watch that, and I think $8/mo after that.)

I've been told £6/month in the UK, but I might see if I can get them here on free Netflix. Maybe in the summer.

(Before someone becomes pedantic, I meant summer holiday, which starts week after next for me)
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.
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Kirian

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Re: Dr. Who
« Reply #47 on: June 22, 2013, 11:47:06 am »
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Matt Smith is my favorite doctor but David Tenant is terrific too. I'd love to have seen David Tenant in some episodes with higher production quality so I'm very excited about the 50th anniversary special. The Ponds are my favorite companions but honestly I really like all of them. I LOVE Riversong. Her episodes tend to be my favorites, she might just be my favorite character in the whole Who universe. I'm not emotionally prepared for when her arc will inevitably end.

It "ended" when we first met her. Sort of. She did die!

I know I know I know. But surely there will be some sort of hoopla whenshe actually leaves.

Consider that we've also seen the other end of her timeline with the Doctor already (In "Let's Kill Hitler").
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Dsell

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Re: Dr. Who
« Reply #48 on: June 22, 2013, 01:49:15 pm »
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Matt Smith is my favorite doctor but David Tenant is terrific too. I'd love to have seen David Tenant in some episodes with higher production quality so I'm very excited about the 50th anniversary special. The Ponds are my favorite companions but honestly I really like all of them. I LOVE Riversong. Her episodes tend to be my favorites, she might just be my favorite character in the whole Who universe. I'm not emotionally prepared for when her arc will inevitably end.

It "ended" when we first met her. Sort of. She did die!

I know I know I know. But surely there will be some sort of hoopla whenshe actually leaves.

Consider that we've also seen the other end of her timeline with the Doctor already (In "Let's Kill Hitler").

Yes but...surely with a character as important as River they will find some way to indicate that she's leaving the show. If she just disappears without ceremony I won't be able to handle it...
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gman314

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Re: Dr. Who
« Reply #49 on: June 22, 2013, 02:00:01 pm »
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Matt Smith is my favorite doctor but David Tenant is terrific too. I'd love to have seen David Tenant in some episodes with higher production quality so I'm very excited about the 50th anniversary special. The Ponds are my favorite companions but honestly I really like all of them. I LOVE Riversong. Her episodes tend to be my favorites, she might just be my favorite character in the whole Who universe. I'm not emotionally prepared for when her arc will inevitably end.

It "ended" when we first met her. Sort of. She did die!

I know I know I know. But surely there will be some sort of hoopla whenshe actually leaves.

Consider that we've also seen the other end of her timeline with the Doctor already (In "Let's Kill Hitler").

Yes but...surely with a character as important as River they will find some way to indicate that she's leaving the show. If she just disappears without ceremony I won't be able to handle it...

You know who's disappearance without a ceremony I really didn't like? Rory's.
Amy gets this whole drama as she leaves, but Rory just gets touched by an angel and is gone. I really liked Rory, was sad to see him go (but didn't mind Amy leaving) and was even more disappointed that he just disappeared without ceremony.
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