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[Archetype]

My friend showed me this show last year, and well, she's got me a bit hooked. I've seen all the episodes on Netflix and have only heard talk about the newer season apparently they get rid of the Ponds somehow. I know I'm not the only one who's seen this since people talked about it in the Star Trek thread, and this show needs its own thread too.

So, favorite Alien? Episodes?  My favorite episode is Gridlocked for how mindblowing-ly interesting it is (at least to me) and The Silence are my favorite alien. They're one of the few things from Doctor Who that may actually exist.

[jsh357]

I am a pretty big fan.  I've watched all the new series and a fair amount of the classic series.  I like pretty much every Doctor except Hartnell (which isn't his fault, as the Doctor didn't really become the character he is until Troughton anyway).

Favorite aliens are the Daleks and the Ood (mainly the design for the Ood; they really need more episodes to flesh them out as a race).  Man, I love a lot of episodes of the show.  Tomb of the Cybermen, The War Games, The Ark in Space, Genesis of the Daleks, The Christmas Invasion, Midnight, Vincent and the Doctor, and The Doctor's Wife all come to mind.  There's still just so much I haven't watched, though. 

I have loathed what Steven Moffat's done to the show since Season 6, but I'm pretty hopeful for where he goes after Season 7 since things will be forced to change up a bit.  Don't get me wrong; I like Moffat fine, but I think he's better at writing one-off episodes that are tight and focused than he is at running the show. 

[Galzria]

I've got every episode that's not been destroyed, and even the audio for a handful of episodes that have (been destroyed). Massive, massive fan.

Don't really have a favorite monster, but Troughton is hands down my favorite incarnation. As far as series of episodes go, Trial of a Time Lord (Season 23, episodes: The mysterious planet, Mindwarp, Terror of the Vervoids, The Ultimate Foe) is definitely up there. I wasn't a massive Colin Baker fan, but those were good.

[WanderingWinder]

Love the show, seen all the rebooted series and unfortunately only a smattering of the classics. Episode must be Blink. I've been reasonably disappointed with what they've done to the Weeping Angels every time they've brought them back - they are just more and more like standard monsters, and this is just very disappointing (actually I feel somewhat similarly about the Borg in Star Trek after Season 5 or so of TNG).

The classics I've found a bit hit and miss. The Three Doctors is awful, and I couldn't get through The Aztecs, but several other serials are perfectly fine, and some - I am mainly thinking of The Caves of Androzzani and City of Death - are quite good.

Actually, season 3 of the revival is just pretty clearly my favorite, and especially the second half. Human Nature - Family of Blood - Blink - Utopia - Sound of Drums - Last of the Time Lords... it's really hard to find another such stretch of great episodes all in a row in any series.

Aliens? Time Lords.

[eHalcyon]

I prefer Inspector Space-Time.

[Archetype]

I prefer Inspector Space-Time.

I'm not a big fan of Community.

[gman314]

I've watched all of the rebooted series except for most of season 5, just haven't got around to it. I really like Blink as well, and I like the weeping angels there, but I agree with WW that after that they become a typical villain, quite disappointing. My favorite season has to be season 4; I really like Donna and there's a great string of episodes from Planet of the Ood all the way to Journey's end interrupted only by The Unicorn and the Wasp. Actually, I really like the whole season except for that one and Fires of Pompeii, although I didn't find Midnight that great. Maybe I should try it again.

I've only seen one serial from the old series; a Tom Baker episode entitled The Seeds of Doom. That was a fun episode to watch.

I have loathed what Steven Moffat's done to the show since Season 6, but I'm pretty hopeful for where he goes after Season 7 since things will be forced to change up a bit.  Don't get me wrong; I like Moffat fine, but I think he's better at writing one-off episodes that are tight and focused than he is at running the show. 

Agree with you completely there, I really don't like what he's done with the show.

[Polk5440]

I wasn't hooked on Doctor Who until Season 5 of the revival, so I have to say, Moffat taking over won me over as a fan. Only then did I go back and watch the previous 4 seasons in order. It just seems like they made things work better in the later seasons -- more interesting aliens; River Song is a better "love interest" than Rose; Amy running away on her wedding night with the Doctor is done better than Rose's running away from Mickey; Doctor's speeches are better; stories seem to be cleaner, less reliant on back story; cinematography and over all production values are better. It gets better every season!

Blink has to be the episode. This is the episode I show to someone who had not seen Doctor Who before.

While I tend to like the stand alone stories best (I don't like it as much when too much back story is required -- or when old finished story lines are dredged up for ratings: Rose, I am looking at you), the River Song story line has been really good. When she shows up, you know it's going to be a great episode. Silence in the Library is my favorite two parter. Season 5 finale is my favorite finale.

Weeping Angles are the best aliens (I have a lamp in my living room that flickers occasionally like the light bulbs in the basement -- it's creepy) and I am glad they are not overused. I think they have been really well utilized. I am sick of the Daleks and the Cybermen.

Ponds>Donna/Grandpa (only because I hate the way they wrote Donna out)>Clara>Rose>Martha.

Haven't seen much of the old Doctor Who. I tried to watch one of the old episodes on Netflix -- it just moved too slowly and wasn't worth my time.

[eHalcyon]

I prefer Inspector Space-Time.

I'm not a big fan of Community.

More seriously though -- I haven't gotten into Dr. Who for a couple reasons -- the big one is that I'm kind of a completionist and very loyal to shows (I tend to stick with shows I once liked even after they fall into mediocrity or worse), so if I started on DW I would feel compelled to start at the beginning.  That leads to the second issue -- there is a LOT to get into, and it looks overwhelming.  I follow enough shows as it is.

[Titandrake]

I prefer Inspector Space-Time.

I'm not a big fan of Community.

More seriously though -- I haven't gotten into Dr. Who for a couple reasons -- the big one is that I'm kind of a completionist and very loyal to shows (I tend to stick with shows I once liked even after they fall into mediocrity or worse), so if I started on DW I would feel compelled to start at the beginning.  That leads to the second issue -- there is a LOT to get into, and it looks overwhelming.  I follow enough shows as it is.

Seconding this. I'm really curious about trying it out, but it's very daunting to get started on Doctor Who. Even ignoring all pre-reboot episodes, there's still a lot to get through.

[Davio]

My favorite quote is "Demons run when a good man goes to war." I like it when the Doctor shows his dark side.

[eHalcyon]

My favorite quote is "Demons run when a good man goes to war." I like it when the Doctor shows his dark side.

Isn't that a light side?  Or is he the demon in the quote?

Ahh, one other reason I'm hesitant to jump on the bandwagon is that I have heard some terrible things about Moffat's writing.  Like, rampant sexism?  So there's that.  I should ask my friend what she thinks of more recent episodes/seasons.  She was a fan before.  Not sure if she still is.  I'm pretty sure some of the Moffat criticism I've seen was passed through her blog, but I'm not sure it got bad enough that she stopped following.

[gman314]

My favorite quote is "Demons run when a good man goes to war." I like it when the Doctor shows his dark side.

Isn't that a light side?  Or is he the demon in the quote?

IIRC, he's the good man. But generally he's the one running. From basically everything.

[Dsell]

I love the show! I'd even call myself a fan, though not quite on the level of some of the others above. I really have to agree with a lot of what Polk said, seasons 5 and later of the revival really hooked me, and they interested me more than enough to go back and watch 1-4 (well, most of season 1). The only classic Who I've seen is The Three Doctors, which was horrible. I didn't finish it. I'm curious to go back and see some others, if only to laugh at them (and maybe find a few good ones too).

Matt Smith is my favorite doctor but David Tenant is terrific too. I'd love to have seen David Tenant in some episodes with higher production quality so I'm very excited about the 50th anniversary special. The Ponds are my favorite companions but honestly I really like all of them. I LOVE Riversong. Her episodes tend to be my favorites, she might just be my favorite character in the whole Who universe. I'm not emotionally prepared for when her arc will inevitably end.

I'm not sure if I have a favorite alien or episode, though a few do come to mind. The angels are of course terrific and Blink is a superb episode. Each angels episode brings consistency new issues to the table, but eh, consistency has never been Who's strong point. The Master's arc was exciting, loved those episodes. The Silence are delightfully creepy and that season's arc (can you tell I like well-developed story arcs??) was compelling. I loved Nightmare in Silver from season 7 a lot as well, just a really nice one-off episode.

[Dsell]

My favorite quote is "Demons run when a good man goes to war." I like it when the Doctor shows his dark side.

Oh I LOVE this episode too. Again, Riversong...it was all very exciting.

[gman314]

Matt Smith is my favorite doctor but David Tenant is terrific too. I'd love to have seen David Tenant in some episodes with higher production quality so I'm very excited about the 50th anniversary special. The Ponds are my favorite companions but honestly I really like all of them. I LOVE Riversong. Her episodes tend to be my favorites, she might just be my favorite character in the whole Who universe. I'm not emotionally prepared for when her arc will inevitably end.

It "ended" when we first met her. Sort of. She did die!

[Dsell]

Matt Smith is my favorite doctor but David Tenant is terrific too. I'd love to have seen David Tenant in some episodes with higher production quality so I'm very excited about the 50th anniversary special. The Ponds are my favorite companions but honestly I really like all of them. I LOVE Riversong. Her episodes tend to be my favorites, she might just be my favorite character in the whole Who universe. I'm not emotionally prepared for when her arc will inevitably end.

It "ended" when we first met her. Sort of. She did die!

I know I know I know. But surely there will be some sort of hoopla whenshe actually leaves.

[Galzria]

My favorite quote is "Demons run when a good man goes to war." I like it when the Doctor shows his dark side.

Isn't that a light side?  Or is he the demon in the quote?

Ahh, one other reason I'm hesitant to jump on the bandwagon is that I have heard some terrible things about Moffat's writing.  Like, rampant sexism?  So there's that.  I should ask my friend what she thinks of more recent episodes/seasons.  She was a fan before.  Not sure if she still is.  I'm pretty sure some of the Moffat criticism I've seen was passed through her blog, but I'm not sure it got bad enough that she stopped following.

Well.... To be fair, for much of the show's history it's been "The Doctor and his Female Companion(s)", with the occasional male companion thrown in (granted, some of the best characters where men traveling with him). Still, it's always fired on all cylinders best when it's been "Alien Male lead that the viewer doesn't associate with, accompanied by Human Female that could be Jane anygirl from down the street". And that's not to say that "sexism" is the driving motive, it's just how it's been.

Now, before the reboot, while there were at times SOME gender tension, it was never really the focus. RTD really brought about the fawning female in Rose, and followed that right up with Martha. Donna then, was a breath of fresh air as her attraction to the Doctor was VERY non-physical.

That's when Moffat took over, and yes, in Amy's character there was a lot of... "I'm a woman, and you will recognize this!", from her clothes, to her attitude. I think that's why a lot of people appreciated both the inclusion of River and Rory, because they softened the tension between Amy/Doctor that was, at times, a little uncomfortable (not just for the characters, but for the viewers).

Clara, the newest companion, also brings an aura of sexuality with her, but it's vastly different to Amy's. Whereas Amy was, in many ways, a "boy toy", Clara seems to flirt right along with whatever gender/species/whatever she happens to be talking to. However, it's a much more subdued flirting, and isn't as obtrusive on the storyline of the episodes.

In many ways for Moffat, I think he approaches Doctor Who a little bit TOO much like Coupling (Wonderful show, btw. Although you need to enjoy sexual tension for the sake of sexual tension. Still, well written and fun all the way around). He's trying too hard to make a Sci-Fi show into a drama/romp. That said, if a season is 13 episodes long, the head writer is usually responsible for MAYBE 5 of them (Opening/Ending, possible 2-parter, maybe 1 more). The rest are by other writers (Neil Gaiman, Neil Cross, Chris Chibnall, Mark Gatiss, etc are all current - and phenomenal - writers).

Anyway, long story short, "Sexism" isn't rampant, per se, but is a little bit of an underlying thread since the show began 50 years ago. Certainly I think Rose & Amy have been the "worst" cases of it since the show was created (well, if we're not judging JUST on outfits anyway. Some of the outfits back in the 70's... whew boy.), but overall it's not a huge detraction from what the show is really all about.

[Archetype]

I prefer Inspector Space-Time.

I'm not a big fan of Community.

More seriously though -- I haven't gotten into Dr. Who for a couple reasons -- the big one is that I'm kind of a completionist and very loyal to shows (I tend to stick with shows I once liked even after they fall into mediocrity or worse), so if I started on DW I would feel compelled to start at the beginning.  That leads to the second issue -- there is a LOT to get into, and it looks overwhelming.  I follow enough shows as it is.

Seconding this. I'm really curious about trying it out, but it's very daunting to get started on Doctor Who. Even ignoring all pre-reboot episodes, there's still a lot to get through.

Well if you guys do start watching, I'd highly suggest starting with 'Blink'. It's a standalone episode with almost entirely new charachters that aren't in any other episodes. From there, I'd pick the first episode of a Season of your choice. I went with 'Eleventh Hour', but that's mainly because of the buzz the season after it was getting, and you don't want to start with the first episode of that season.

Or you can just jump around from what seems coolest. Granted, that's a lot easier to do with the seasons with the 9th/10th Doctor since there's  almost no season-long storyline during those episodes. If you were to do that, I'd suggest Gridlock.

 

[eHalcyon]

Based on what I've seen on Tumblr, the episode I'd want to watch is the one about Van Gogh.  I know the basic premise of Blink as well, and that would be interesting.

On the topic of sexism, I think this article is a decent summary of the concerns I'm talking about.  It's a bit milder than other criticisms I've seen.

[Galzria]

Honestly, as others have said, Blink is a great first episode to get your feet wet. It has no major impact on any other episode or major story point, and is just really, really good (Moffat at his best, although The Empty Child // The Doctor Dances, as well as Silence in the Library // Forest of the Dead - all great episodes. Heck, so is Girl in the Fireplace for that matter...).

After that though, I really do think Russel T. Davis did a great job reintroducing the show. While you can certainly start at the beginning of any season (I don't recommend jumping into the middle), "Season 1" of the reboot really established a firm sense of "This is what the show is", and allowed what followed to build off of that.

If you absolutely don't want to start with "Rose", I would jump all the way to "The Eleventh Hour". While I hate to say skipping over anything Tennant is a good idea, the way the seasons were written and characters reintroduced up that point, if you miss out on "Season 1", you'll constantly feel like you've missed back story. With the introduction of Matt Smith, and more importantly, Steven Moffat, **almost** all ties to the past few seasons were severed, and you get a new, fresh start without feeling like you're missing out.

[Dsell]

I would echo all of this for anyone wanting to get into the show. The only thing I would add is not to let the cheesiness of the first couple episodes of season 1 dissuade you from watching. It gets better, and then later on it gets a LOT better.

For people starting with season 5, I actually think Blink and Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead are good and (eventually) important pre-requisites.

[eHalcyon]

If/when I start, I suppose I would start from the very beginning of the reboot(?) which is... Rose and the ninth doctor?  Is that right?

Tumblr has already spoiled some things for me, but not in a way I fully understand.  Like, I know that something tragic happens with Rose and the doctor, something about people being trapped in different dimensions or something but I'm not sure how it plays out in the slightest.  I even tried reading a DW wiki about it at some point and it didn't really make sense to me -- probably something you need to actually watch.



Cheesiness wouldn't deter me.  I got through Buffy last summer.

[Galzria]

Based on what I've seen on Tumblr, the episode I'd want to watch is the one about Van Gogh.  I know the basic premise of Blink as well, and that would be interesting.

On the topic of sexism, I think this article is a decent summary of the concerns I'm talking about.  It's a bit milder than other criticisms I've seen.

The article is somewhat right, and somewhat biased towards what it wants to see. Regarding the kiss with "Jenny", they're spot on. That was so forced and really OUT of character for the Doctor that it was incredibly awkward. In the past, under Moffat, the Doctor has been forcibly kissed by (off the top of my head) two women and both times was... very uncomfortable/fidgity/squeemish - it was obviously something he wasn't accustomed to and was uncomfortable with himself. In one case, like the kiss with Jenny, it felt forced, although at least it matched the character's personality. The second kiss actually fit the story, and I can't really knock its inclusion.

Where the article goes off, I think, is in its criticism of River - because it doesn't take into consideration her entire storyline. The article is actually objectifying her more by complaining that she isn't what the author feels a real woman should be - whereas in the context of Doctor Who she was exactly what she needed to be.

When it comes to Clara and her first season of Doctor Who, I think Moffat was trying to move away from characters like Amy or River, who were... Well, as I mentioned before, and the Article you link mentions, Doctor Who used to give a feeling like the companion could be "Jane anybody". She was interesting -because- she could be *you* (or rather, just some random girl that he meets on the street). Neither Amy nor River had this quality, and thus they became too far from being "real" in the sense that people couldn't connect with them (Rory on the other hand, was written wonderfully, as he really was your "unspectacular in every way yet completely wonderful person"). I think Moffat got caught in wanting to introduce a "normal" character again with Clara, but didn't want her to be bland. So he tried to make her both "The most normal, average girl possible", while also generating a huge mystery around her. Did it fall a little flat at times? Yes. Unfortunately, I think the writing floundered a little in this latest season. It was full of great stories to tell, but I could've put any companion I chose into each story and it wouldn't really have changed anything. There was nothing directly personable about Clara, and nothing that made her, as a character, truly unique.

And maybe that's what Moffat was aiming for. Certainly there is SOME sense that he did indeed set that goal. I just think the execution could've been done a little better. Still, the stories were very strong throughout, and Clara's sometimes generic participation aside (no knock on Jenna Luise Coleman, who was very, very good opposite Smith's Doctor), the season was very enjoyable and set up some very interesting plot points to move forward with.

It's important to note that when the Article says "Clara was born to save the Doctor", those are her words, and aren't entirely taken within context. If anything, it's a season of a story about Cause and Effect. I have high hopes for next year with Clara, as she's now been established, I do believe some of the "generic companion" feeling that she was written early on will start to subside, as the "mystery" is solved, and the writers don't have to "hide" anything anymore.

[Dsell]

I really felt like there was a fairly stark difference between the first half of season 7 part 2 (the Christmas special and beyond - everything with clara) and the second half. I liked the stories and episodes in the first half just fine but the stories and character really developed much better in the final episodes of the season. Of course, the first half of season 7 proper (with the Ponds) was a pretty fun romp that had some real high points.

[ashersky]

I prefer Inspector Space-Time.

I prefer The Cape.  Or maybe the Kickpuncher franchise.

Please tell me you will be signing up for Yuma and my mafia game based on Community/Modern Family.

[Polk5440]

Based on what I've seen on Tumblr, the episode I'd want to watch is the one about Van Gogh.  I know the basic premise of Blink as well, and that would be interesting.

On the topic of sexism, I think this article is a decent summary of the concerns I'm talking about.  It's a bit milder than other criticisms I've seen.

I call PC police on this one. The premise is that the Doctor is practically a demi-god. River Song competes with him because she is, too. I don't see any complaining that the minor male characters surrounding the female companions are usually completely pathetic (Mickey I'm looking at you), at least at first, and would be terrible role models, too. This is perfectly fine because of the contrast that is the premise of the show. Not every character (or any character) in every show/movie/book ever has to be perfect example of their gender in order for the show to be entertaining or worthwhile.

The writer of the article will only be happy when the Doctor is female and the companion is male to "balance" the show out.

Also, no credit to Moffat for making more "rounded" aliens? The used to almost exclusively have bad intentions. Moffat gives more of them alternative motivation, or at least they're "misunderstood." That has to make the PC police at least a little happy.

[Kuildeous]

When Dr. Who first got rebooted, I refused to watch it because, like eHalcyon, I have completionist issues. I felt like I shouldn't watch the new season until I get around to watching to previous episodes. This went on quite a few years.

I started watching Who earlier this year. BBC America was going nuts with the new season, so I set up the DVR to record all episodes. This got a little nasty in terms of space, but I managed it mostly well.

My first episode was the Eleventh Hour, which was perfect for getting into it. I had known about the Doctor's regeneration, so I was able to grok exactly what was happening. Maybe if someone didn't know anything about the regeneration, he might have found the episode confusing and disjointed. I found the wordplay amusing. "Oh, they don't mean we'll incinerate just the house."

I caught a few more episodes in order, but BBC America was trying to showcase the best of Who, it seems, so it jumped around a bit. My wife and I joke that we feel like Time Lords because we watch the episodes all out of order. The only negative experience I had was watching Forest of the Dead. I didn't realize it was a two-parter, and somehow part 1 didn't get recorded. So I knew there were experiences leading up to it, but I had thought they were referring to earlier episodes. Still, I was able to follow along and realize what the foes were and how the suits worked. Still, when both parts were recorded later, I rewatched it and enjoyed the experience a lot more.

I still haven't caught up with the reboot. I have a lot of Donna and Rose episodes on my DVR. I don't feel like I've seen that much Martha, so I probably have even more catching up. I feel fairly confident that I've seen all of the Ponds, though.

I love River Song. I think she makes a great counterpoint to the godlike Doctor. In fact, when they're together, she's usually the one outdoing him. I like most of the villains, especially when they get pretty weird and surreal. Angels fall in this category (funnily enough, Blink was the third episode I saw with the Angels so by then, they were meh), as do the Silence. Even one-offs that are bizarre tickle me, such as the automatons in the episode with the giant space whale. The Daleks almost seem too mundane, though it's nice to see them pull a few tricks, such as the time they "help" Churchill. I don't loathe seeing Daleks, but when I see them, it's close to a "here we go again" moment. Still, I can enjoy the episodes regardless, so that's saying something. I have a hard time getting into the Cybermen. Maybe it's because they seem to be a rehash of the Borg (even though Cybermen actually predate the Borg).

I've not seen the classics but two. I watched most of the Aztec episode. I'm with WW; I could not finish that episode. The interesting part was whether history could be changed, and they resolved that before the end (I think). I saw the fifth Doctor vs. the Cybermen (who were not quite as mechanical as they are today).

I've been too busy to clean up my DVR lately. I don't know when we're making the switch to Google Fiber, but when it happens, we'll lose all our stored episodes. It's a worthy sacrifice.

[Davio]

My favorite quote is "Demons run when a good man goes to war." I like it when the Doctor shows his dark side.

Isn't that a light side?  Or is he the demon in the quote?

IIRC, he's the good man. But generally he's the one running. From basically everything.

Yeah, but don't make him angry. I love it when he's angry. I like how he's suffering from some sort of weltschmerz due to all the things he has seen.

[Tables]

I've been a Doctor Who fan (like just about every Sci-Fi fan I know...) since season 2 of the new series. I still want to watch Season 1, as well as the old seasons, but time and price are issues. I think Doctor Who is one of the best things on TV. It has reason and motive for every episode to be totally different, far more than a normal show, but keeps enough core and enough similarities for it to be easy to understand every time. And that huge variability keeps things fresh and interesting - there's the occasional dud episode (such as Rings of Akhatan this series), but mostly, you get high quality, reasonably unique, memorable episodes most weeks.

I think the second half of the last series was my favourite so far. Except the aforementioned Rings of Akhatan, and perhaps The Name of the Doctor, every episode was excellent. Clara was introduced very well and quickly felt entirely in place, and her mini story arc was well explored, with unexpected twists throughout.

[Polk5440]

My wife and I joke that we feel like Time Lords because we watch the episodes all out of order.

When I was watching older episodes, esp. Silence in the Library, I felt like I was on River Song's timeline because I had already seen season 5, "the future". Hey -- he's not my Doctor, either! No, I don't know you, Donna. Why aren't you in future seasons? That was pretty cool.

[Kirian]

I still want to watch Season 1, as well as the old seasons, but time and price are issues.

They're available on Netflix streaming (free for a month if you just want to watch that, and I think $8/mo after that.)

[WanderingWinder]

I am confused by people referring to some of the old classic Who's as things like 'the episode The Aztecs'. These were all multi-episode serials. Are people missing that, or am I just being overly pedantic here?

Actually, this past season was the *least* favorite of the reboot for me. Well, the first half in particular, I don't know, didn't do much for me. And the second half started off pretty meh, though the last few episodes were reasonably nice.

[Galzria]

I am confused by people referring to some of the old classic Who's as things like 'the episode The Aztecs'. These were all multi-episode serials. Are people missing that, or am I just being overly pedantic here?

Actually, this past season was the *least* favorite of the reboot for me. Well, the first half in particular, I don't know, didn't do much for me. And the second half started off pretty meh, though the last few episodes were reasonably nice.

The general sense in reference is that, while the story is comprised of serials, it's still a 'single story', thus the use of 'episode'. Also, it's possible that those referring to "The episode The Aztecs" may have seen it through the 50th anniversary specials, in which they are running classic stories (all serials within a story) as a single episode (cutting out opening/ending credits of each serial, as well as the overlap for "previously on").

[DG]

When I was young, probably about ten, I read a lot of Doctor Who books that were written from the TV shows. That was before video recorders so I was never able to watch as much Doctor Who as I read. By the time it got to the fifth/sixth doctor it was going downhill and I've never been interested in the reboot. It's probably because I expect the doctor to be played by someone over 50 who looks like a senior academic but then acts like an eccentric, rather than someone who looks like an upstart student. My favorite doctor was of course Tom Baker, the one I first started watching, although I'd give a nod to Jon Pertwee as well. I liked the films made with Peter Cushing as the doctor as well but they'll look incredibly dated now.

[Kuildeous]

The general sense in reference is that, while the story is comprised of serials, it's still a 'single story', thus the use of 'episode'. Also, it's possible that those referring to "The episode The Aztecs" may have seen it through the 50th anniversary specials, in which they are running classic stories (all serials within a story) as a single episode (cutting out opening/ending credits of each serial, as well as the overlap for "previously on").

That is exactly what I was referring to, and I hazarded a guess that it was also what WW was referring to.

I did not know that they cut those episodes and strung them together. That makes more sense of what I saw. I thought it strange that the "episode" lasted so long. I knew that episodes in the '60s weren't generally long (I do have the Prisoner). So, out of curiosity, could someone in the know tell me how many episodes were strung together for the 50th-anniversary special of the 1st Doctor?

And did the 5th Doctor special get the same treatment? The one where a companion first dies?

I found the retrospectives fascinating. I saw the first five back-to-back (followed by the 5th Doctor special). It's neat how some of the elements in the reboot (such an inappropriate term….let's call it continuation) have been around for a long time. Davros, for example, and the Master. These characters seemed like they would have been introduced in the new seasons, but nope. They've been introduced decades before.

[Galzria]

The general sense in reference is that, while the story is comprised of serials, it's still a 'single story', thus the use of 'episode'. Also, it's possible that those referring to "The episode The Aztecs" may have seen it through the 50th anniversary specials, in which they are running classic stories (all serials within a story) as a single episode (cutting out opening/ending credits of each serial, as well as the overlap for "previously on").

That is exactly what I was referring to, and I hazarded a guess that it was also what WW was referring to.

I did not know that they cut those episodes and strung them together. That makes more sense of what I saw. I thought it strange that the "episode" lasted so long. I knew that episodes in the '60s weren't generally long (I do have the Prisoner). So, out of curiosity, could someone in the know tell me how many episodes were strung together for the 50th-anniversary special of the 1st Doctor?

And did the 5th Doctor special get the same treatment? The one where a companion first dies?

I found the retrospectives fascinating. I saw the first five back-to-back (followed by the 5th Doctor special). It's neat how some of the elements in the reboot (such an inappropriate term….let's call it continuation) have been around for a long time. Davros, for example, and the Master. These characters seemed like they would have been introduced in the new seasons, but nope. They've been introduced decades before.

The Aztecs was 4 Serials long: Temple of Evil, The Warriors of Death, The Bride of Sacrifice, and The Day of Darkness.

Earthshock was also 4 Serials long, although they were simply Part One - Part Four.

[Kuildeous]

Holy cow. Okay, that explains a great deal. I thought that the pace seemed to be off a bit on those. I chalked it up to just general awkwardness due to budget and technology of the day.

Kind of makes me wonder what they're going to choose for the 9th, 10th, and 11th Doctors. Guess I'll start to find out in September.

[eHalcyon]

Based on what I've seen on Tumblr, the episode I'd want to watch is the one about Van Gogh.  I know the basic premise of Blink as well, and that would be interesting.

On the topic of sexism, I think this article is a decent summary of the concerns I'm talking about.  It's a bit milder than other criticisms I've seen.

I call PC police on this one. The premise is that the Doctor is practically a demi-god. River Song competes with him because she is, too. I don't see any complaining that the minor male characters surrounding the female companions are usually completely pathetic (Mickey I'm looking at you), at least at first, and would be terrible role models, too. This is perfectly fine because of the contrast that is the premise of the show. Not every character (or any character) in every show/movie/book ever has to be perfect example of their gender in order for the show to be entertaining or worthwhile.

The writer of the article will only be happy when the Doctor is female and the companion is male to "balance" the show out.

Also, no credit to Moffat for making more "rounded" aliens? The used to almost exclusively have bad intentions. Moffat gives more of them alternative motivation, or at least they're "misunderstood." That has to make the PC police at least a little happy.

Would it be problematic to have a female Doctor?

But anyway, I highly doubt that's what the author is after.  She begins the article by lauding earlier seasons for properly portraying women as "complex, interesting human beings".

I'm more concerned about things like this:

Amy was confused about River’s behaviour, and asks, “I don’t get it, one minute she wants to marry you, the next she wants to kill you!” The Doctor replies: “She’s been brainwashed, it probably makes sense to her. Plus, she’s a woman.”

I mean, OK, it's a joke I guess.  Haha, women are crazy and have crazy mood swings?  It's bothersome. 

The amount of criticism out there is pretty amazing, and to brush it off as "PC Police" does it a disservice.  This conversation is prompting me to go look into it a bit more.

And here's an interesting quotation from Moffat:

There’s this issue you’re not allowed to discuss: that women are needy. Men can go for longer, more happily, without women. That’s the truth. We don’t, as little boys, play at being married—we try to avoid it for as long as possible. Meanwhile women are out there hunting for husbands.

Man, that's sexist.

But I fear we are veering into RSP.  I will say that I know DW is still a good show that I will probably get into it eventually.

[Kuildeous]

I think that a female Doctor would be smashing. And you know, with that quote where he demeans River Song by attributing her psychotic mood swings to being female, the entire first episode could be dedicated to the Doctor coming to grips with this new body.

I read that it's not going to happen. I forget who said it (BBC executive?), but someone said that it would be just too confusing for children to see a man change into a woman. Because everything else on that show makes so much sense. But I hope it does happen.

I thought the actress who played the TARDIS in the Doctor's Wife was brilliant. She just as easily could play the Doctor.

[Polk5440]

Would it be problematic to have a female Doctor?

No. But neither do you need one to enjoy what the show has to offer or to prove the show isn't promoting sexism.

I guess I just disagree that the lead women in the earlier seasons were somehow "stronger."

I am surprised criticism is prevalent. Maybe it has to do with its status as a popular family show? Where having perfectly "properly portrayed" characters or PC theme is most important? And given what's on TV, Doctor Who is very benign (if there's a theme or morality pushed, it's usually some variation of "it's good to help people even at personal cost"); it's partly why I watch it.

Maybe my threshold for boycotting certain media is just looser than yours, which is fine, too.

[eHalcyon]

Would it be problematic to have a female Doctor?

No. But neither do you need one to enjoy what the show has to offer or to prove the show isn't promoting sexism.

I guess I just disagree that the lead women in the earlier seasons were somehow "stronger."

I am surprised criticism is prevalent. Maybe it has to do with its status as a popular family show? Where having perfectly "properly portrayed" characters or PC theme is most important? And given what's on TV, Doctor Who is very benign (if there's a theme or morality pushed, it's usually some variation of "it's good to help people even at personal cost"); it's partly why I watch it.

Maybe my threshold for boycotting certain media is just looser than yours, which is fine, too.

I haven't mentioned boycotting.  Just concern.

Criticism seems not to be that the women have to be perfect or "strong".  Far from it.  It just seems that the vast, vast majority of Moffat's female characters always seem to end up being defined by either husbands or children, as if all women are simply destined for marrying and/or breeding.  Real people are more complicated than that.

But it is a complicated issue and I am not familiar with the show, so it is difficult to discuss.

[Galzria]

Woman Doctor? :



Although that might not address the 'sexism' complaint...

[WanderingWinder]

Would it be problematic to have a female Doctor?

No. But neither do you need one to enjoy what the show has to offer or to prove the show isn't promoting sexism.

I guess I just disagree that the lead women in the earlier seasons were somehow "stronger."

I am surprised criticism is prevalent. Maybe it has to do with its status as a popular family show? Where having perfectly "properly portrayed" characters or PC theme is most important? And given what's on TV, Doctor Who is very benign (if there's a theme or morality pushed, it's usually some variation of "it's good to help people even at personal cost"); it's partly why I watch it.

Maybe my threshold for boycotting certain media is just looser than yours, which is fine, too.

I haven't mentioned boycotting.  Just concern.

Criticism seems not to be that the women have to be perfect or "strong".  Far from it.  It just seems that the vast, vast majority of Moffat's female characters always seem to end up being defined by either husbands or children, as if all women are simply destined for marrying and/or breeding.  Real people are more complicated than that.

But it is a complicated issue and I am not familiar with the show, so it is difficult to discuss.

You really don't have a leg to stand on here. You're judging the guy as a sexist for things other people have said about him. Go look at the stuff yourself, then come back with an opinion.

I mean, seriously, let's go through his female Dr. Who characters:

The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances: Nancy - takes care of children in the London Blitz. Eh, it's somehow traditional, of course, but she does it in a strong way, and I have a problem with having a problem with women doing traditional things. Being forced to do them, sure. But doing them at all, no.

The Girl in the Fireplace: Madame de Pompadour is based on a historical figure. There are pros and cons, yes, but at least she takes a keen interest. I grant you that she is largely the one getting rescued, but again, historical figure.

Blink: Hard to find a better strong female character than Sally Sparrow, no? She is trespassing, breaking into places, adventuring, detectiving, working things out, saving the day. By far the protagonist of the episode, much more than even the Doctor.

Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead: There are a few here. Ms. Evangelista is a bit of a ditz, but at least it's pointed out that she's not worthless, though other characters think that. Anita, she's like the pilot or something? She doesn't do that much, just a minor character, like either of the Daves. CAL is a child, and actually she's saved everyone. And ok, Professor River Song. She basically takes charge, well, along with the Doctor, and overrules him to make the self-sacrifice at the end. Later on, she is basically *always* taking charge of the situation.

Amy Pond: Also takes charge, to the point that the other character's are joked as being subservient to her, and her husband is Mr. Pond at the wedding, "Wait, that's not how it works... yeah, yeah it is."

I mean, it's not perfect, I grant, but it's not near the top half of problems I see towards women on TV.

[eHalcyon]

No, I acknowledge that I'm not in a place to really discuss it before looking at it myself.  I'm just saying, these are concerns I've been exposed to and they seem legitimate (especially regarding some of the things Moffat himself has said in interviews and such).  My stance on it is only mild concern as an observer, having not watched those episodes myself.  Don't get me wrong, I am still interested in checking out the series in the future.

[Polk5440]

"Spoilers"

[Tables]

I still want to watch Season 1, as well as the old seasons, but time and price are issues.

They're available on Netflix streaming (free for a month if you just want to watch that, and I think $8/mo after that.)

I've been told £6/month in the UK, but I might see if I can get them here on free Netflix. Maybe in the summer.

(Before someone becomes pedantic, I meant summer holiday, which starts week after next for me)

[Kirian]

Matt Smith is my favorite doctor but David Tenant is terrific too. I'd love to have seen David Tenant in some episodes with higher production quality so I'm very excited about the 50th anniversary special. The Ponds are my favorite companions but honestly I really like all of them. I LOVE Riversong. Her episodes tend to be my favorites, she might just be my favorite character in the whole Who universe. I'm not emotionally prepared for when her arc will inevitably end.

It "ended" when we first met her. Sort of. She did die!

I know I know I know. But surely there will be some sort of hoopla whenshe actually leaves.

Consider that we've also seen the other end of her timeline with the Doctor already (In "Let's Kill Hitler").

[Dsell]

Matt Smith is my favorite doctor but David Tenant is terrific too. I'd love to have seen David Tenant in some episodes with higher production quality so I'm very excited about the 50th anniversary special. The Ponds are my favorite companions but honestly I really like all of them. I LOVE Riversong. Her episodes tend to be my favorites, she might just be my favorite character in the whole Who universe. I'm not emotionally prepared for when her arc will inevitably end.

It "ended" when we first met her. Sort of. She did die!

I know I know I know. But surely there will be some sort of hoopla whenshe actually leaves.

Consider that we've also seen the other end of her timeline with the Doctor already (In "Let's Kill Hitler").

Yes but...surely with a character as important as River they will find some way to indicate that she's leaving the show. If she just disappears without ceremony I won't be able to handle it...

[gman314]

Matt Smith is my favorite doctor but David Tenant is terrific too. I'd love to have seen David Tenant in some episodes with higher production quality so I'm very excited about the 50th anniversary special. The Ponds are my favorite companions but honestly I really like all of them. I LOVE Riversong. Her episodes tend to be my favorites, she might just be my favorite character in the whole Who universe. I'm not emotionally prepared for when her arc will inevitably end.

It "ended" when we first met her. Sort of. She did die!

I know I know I know. But surely there will be some sort of hoopla whenshe actually leaves.

Consider that we've also seen the other end of her timeline with the Doctor already (In "Let's Kill Hitler").

Yes but...surely with a character as important as River they will find some way to indicate that she's leaving the show. If she just disappears without ceremony I won't be able to handle it...

You know who's disappearance without a ceremony I really didn't like? Rory's.
Amy gets this whole drama as she leaves, but Rory just gets touched by an angel and is gone. I really liked Rory, was sad to see him go (but didn't mind Amy leaving) and was even more disappointed that he just disappeared without ceremony.

[Dsell]

Matt Smith is my favorite doctor but David Tenant is terrific too. I'd love to have seen David Tenant in some episodes with higher production quality so I'm very excited about the 50th anniversary special. The Ponds are my favorite companions but honestly I really like all of them. I LOVE Riversong. Her episodes tend to be my favorites, she might just be my favorite character in the whole Who universe. I'm not emotionally prepared for when her arc will inevitably end.

It "ended" when we first met her. Sort of. She did die!

I know I know I know. But surely there will be some sort of hoopla whenshe actually leaves.

Consider that we've also seen the other end of her timeline with the Doctor already (In "Let's Kill Hitler").

Yes but...surely with a character as important as River they will find some way to indicate that she's leaving the show. If she just disappears without ceremony I won't be able to handle it...

You know who's disappearance without a ceremony I really didn't like? Rory's.
Amy gets this whole drama as she leaves, but Rory just gets touched by an angel and is gone. I really liked Rory, was sad to see him go (but didn't mind Amy leaving) and was even more disappointed that he just disappeared without ceremony.

That didn't bother me so much actually. I thought the Winter Quay stuff was a pretty good exit for him/them. I was expecting for them both to go at that point which would have been alright. When they came back, it was like they got a few bonus minutes, and Rory disappearing was a surprising way of letting you know that everything is NOT OK.

[eHalcyon]

Holy smokes, I just realized that the ninth doctor is Christopher Eccleston.  I mean, I knew that Eccleston had played a Doctor.  I'd also seen images of the ninth Doc with Rose.  But I never realized that was Eccleston... didn't recognize him without the beard he had in Heroes!

[Kuildeous]

My first experience with Eccleston was his role in Shallow Grave. This Doctor's personality is vastly different from his role as David.

I did see him in Heroes too. Really, he has such wildly different looks in all three roles. I haven't seen anything he's been in (I don't think). Okay, IMDb makes a liar out of me. Time to rewatch 28 Days Later, the Others, and Elizabeth.

Oh, and looks like he's in the new Thor movie. That'll be exciting.

[Davio]

I feel a bit sorry for Rory.

If I were turned into a plastic Roman, I wouldn't wait for a box to open for 2000 years I don't think. I'd go see the world and try not to end up in a microwave or stay out in the sun too long.

[shMerker]

Matt Smith is my favorite doctor but David Tenant is terrific too. I'd love to have seen David Tenant in some episodes with higher production quality so I'm very excited about the 50th anniversary special. The Ponds are my favorite companions but honestly I really like all of them. I LOVE Riversong. Her episodes tend to be my favorites, she might just be my favorite character in the whole Who universe. I'm not emotionally prepared for when her arc will inevitably end.

It "ended" when we first met her. Sort of. She did die!

I know I know I know. But surely there will be some sort of hoopla whenshe actually leaves.

Consider that we've also seen the other end of her timeline with the Doctor already (In "Let's Kill Hitler").

Yes but...surely with a character as important as River they will find some way to indicate that she's leaving the show. If she just disappears without ceremony I won't be able to handle it...

I suspect they'll do an episode where the Doctor sees her right before she's about to head for the library. He'll know what's going to happen, but won't be able to stop her. Maybe he tries but she won't let him. That seems like something River would do.

[Voltaire]

Matt Smith is my favorite doctor but David Tenant is terrific too. I'd love to have seen David Tenant in some episodes with higher production quality so I'm very excited about the 50th anniversary special. The Ponds are my favorite companions but honestly I really like all of them. I LOVE Riversong. Her episodes tend to be my favorites, she might just be my favorite character in the whole Who universe. I'm not emotionally prepared for when her arc will inevitably end.

It "ended" when we first met her. Sort of. She did die!

I know I know I know. But surely there will be some sort of hoopla whenshe actually leaves.

Consider that we've also seen the other end of her timeline with the Doctor already (In "Let's Kill Hitler").

Yes but...surely with a character as important as River they will find some way to indicate that she's leaving the show. If she just disappears without ceremony I won't be able to handle it...

I suspect they'll do an episode where the Doctor sees her right before she's about to head for the library. He'll know what's going to happen, but won't be able to stop her. Maybe he tries but she won't let him. That seems like something River would do.

Have you all seen "The Name of the Doctor"? I thought that episode made it clear we were seeing River after the Library ie she survives it/comes back somehow. Doesn't she tell Clara how the Doctor knows he leaves her in the Library and never says anything about it to her? ie she knows he knows?

And if that didn't give you a clue, huge fan. Initially got into the show starting with "Rose" while Tennant's specials were airing. I caught up with the show just in time to have The End of Time be the first episodes I ever watched "live". I've since watched a smattering of classic Doctor Who. Several serials of Baker (love "The Pirate Planet"!) and lots of 1st Doctor because of completist tendancies. I quite like Hartnell, actually - if you can get over the fact that the Doctor kidnaps his first-ever human companions, it's easy to see him as a younger version of the current guys.

I loved the Doctor's kiss of River in the last episode, simply because it was (I think) the first-ever honest-to-Rassilon romantic kiss with no sci-fi weirdness going on moment in the Doctor's life, and it completely justified to me the romantic side of his relationship with River (which up until that point felt as fake and tacked-on as Rose). And this is coming from someone who hates hates hates it when companions fall for the Doctor.

Rory/Amy (in that order) > Donna > Martha > Rose. No idea where to put Clara yet.

I thought the most recent season started out massively awful - so bad I didn't bother watching each episode the week it aired - and ended with Moffat's best finale yet.

I also agree with those who say that Moffat is great at individual episodes and not so hot at arcs. Overall, though, I think he's done far more good than bad for the series and therefore don't mind him staying in charge for as long as he wants to.

[ConMan]

Have you all seen "The Name of the Doctor"? I thought that episode made it clear we were seeing River after the Library ie she survives it/comes back somehow. Doesn't she tell Clara how the Doctor knows he leaves her in the Library and never says anything about it to her? ie she knows he knows?

"The Name of the Doctor" spoiler:
I thought it was pretty clear that the River we see in this episode is not the real River Song - she's just a psychic projection of the Doctor's memory of her, which he never acknowledges because guilt/some kind of belief that acknowledging her will be equivalent to saying goodbye - and as such, the whole "I've always been able to see you" and kiss really *is* a second goodbye to her, and quite a dramatic one at that. So much so, that I don't know whether Moffatt's going to bring her back for a while if at all.

[Davio]

My favorite companion (of the new series) was Martha Jones.
Donna was probably my least favorite although I didn't mind her that much in the end. Glad that she was gone though.

[Galzria]

My favorite companion (of the new series) was Martha Jones.
Donna was probably my least favorite although I didn't mind her that much in the end. Glad that she was gone though.

See, I have to admit I was the opposite. I was so thankful with Donna to finally -not- have a companion that was constantly lusting after the Doctor. Martha drove me up the wall with her constant 'woe is me' attitude, and the way she screamed at every shadow that jumped out at her (Human Nature // The Family of Blood, while good episodes, really drove home my dislike of Martha. She -never- put herself on equal footing with the Doctor. Playing his servant was, for all intents, her role in the stories). Even in the finale, when she was supposed to play this great, big part in saving the world, ultimately she was just a servant to the Doctor's plans.

I dunno. To me more than anybody else, Martha was the shining example of what Davros accused the Doctor of turning his companions into. Nothing but weapons to be used.

[Davio]

Well, David Tennant was also my favourite Doctor, he just made the show about him and not so much about the companions and I didn't mind that at all.

Heck, I could watch the show if it didn't even have any companions, but maybe that's just me. Most of the time they just get in the way. They're like poor little sheep who have to get rescued over and over and over, because they touched some buttons they weren't allowed to touch or something. Often it's their stupidity that gets them into trouble.

This is why I've always loved River Song, she was strong and the only one equal to the Doctor, the only one able to really amaze him.

To me, the companions have a little bit of that old horror stupidity, you know where you're shouting at the screen "Don't answer the door!" And they answer the door and get killed. I suppose this is needed to offset the Doctor's brilliance, but I could do without.

[Kirian]

To me, the companions have a little bit of that old horror stupidity, you know where you're shouting at the screen "Don't answer the door!" And they answer the door and get killed. I suppose this is needed to offset the Doctor's brilliance, but I could do without.

As I understand it, originally the companions were there to create a connection to the viewer.  They have to have a bit of naivete to create that connection.

It's another reminder that Doctor Who, despite its setting, is not truly science fiction in the technical sense; like Star Wars, and to a certain extent Star Trek, it is grand fantasy that happens to include space travel, time travel, and aliens.  The Doctor takes Clarke's Third Law to extremes.  He is a demigod by any reasonable standard; the Doctor (and other Time Lords) are not merely brilliant but exceedingly powerful.  The Doctor and the Master compare quite well to Gandalf and Sauron in terms of raw power (and the ways in which each uses their power).

(Digreesion: One could reasonably say that Davros's statement about the Doctor turning innocents into weapons applies pretty well to Gandalf.  Frodo and the other hobbits are manipulated by him into taking on the quest of the Ring, and the other members of the Fellowship were on some level pawns moved into place by Gandalf--Aragorn and Gimli to a greater extent, Boromir and Legolas to a lesser extent.)

Anyway... against the backdrop of such (literally) fantastic power, the viewer needs a person who is no less heroic but much less powerful and, well, naive, human, hopeful.

I do think the romantic subplots with Rose and Martha got a bit out of hand; I was worried about that with Amy, but the inclusion of Rory made that unlikely.  (I have yet to see the Clara episodes, as I'm catching up with all of this on Netflix.

TLDR: The Doctor is a demigod, and the companions necessarily seem weak in power, though not weak in spirit, by comparison.

[Voltaire]

It's another reminder that Doctor Who, despite its setting, is not truly science fiction in the technical sense; like Star Wars, and to a certain extent Star Trek, it is grand fantasy that happens to include space travel, time travel, and aliens.

The best way for me to cause a fight with my friends is to call Dr. Who a fantasy show (which I think it is). 

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I like Clara quite a bit.  Despite the feeling that she's trying to be a slightly-less-gorgeous Amy, I like that they play around with the companion tropes a bit.  Like when the Doctor tells her to stay put and she actually stays put much to his amazement.

P.S. Yes, Doctor Who is totally time-travel fantasy.  Nothing wrong with that.

[Voltaire]

I like Clara quite a bit.  Despite the feeling that she's trying to be a slightly-less-gorgeous Amy, I like that they play around with the companion tropes a bit.  Like when the Doctor tells her to stay put and she actually stays put much to his amazement.

That was the first moment Clara moved from "generic attractive spunky companion" to "character" for me.

[Kuildeous]

The best way for me to cause a fight with my friends is to call Dr. Who a fantasy show (which I think it is). 

I can't imagine not accepting it as a fantasy show. It has so many instances of hand-waving that I don't even ponder the logic. It has a lot of fluff but sometimes some deep moments. Want to masquerade aliens as humans or a spaceship as the top floor of a house? Some weird gizmo that just makes it happen. No science needed. How does the perception filter work? Who cares? It lets people see a spaceship as a flat. How do those enormous grotesque things fit into a human suit? Who cares? They simply do, and the explanation of the displaced gas is less of a suitable explanation and more of an excuse to have flatulence humor.

Call it fantasy, my good man. You'll get no argument from me.

[Kirian]

P.S. Yes, Doctor Who is totally time-travel fantasy.  Nothing wrong with that.

Indeed!  There's nothing at all wrong with fantasy; I don't intend any imprecations by saying that.  Certainly not as a reader of both fantasy and science fiction literature, and as a fan of Star Wars, Star Trek, and Doctor Who.

[Kuildeous]

This is why I've always loved River Song, she was strong and the only one equal to the Doctor, the only one able to really amaze him.

To me, the companions have a little bit of that old horror stupidity, you know where you're shouting at the screen "Don't answer the door!" And they answer the door and get killed. I suppose this is needed to offset the Doctor's brilliance, but I could do without.

I like the companions when they're not being snotty. I can see trepidation and accidental pressing of buttons. Sometimes the Doctor tells a companion to do something with a control, and it doesn't make sense for the companion, so he/she screws it up. I can respect that.

I didn't like Amy at first, because she was just so annoying. That's changed. And sometimes even Donna got on my tits when she gets all bull-headed about something in which she's unfamiliar.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

As long as we're talking our potentially controversial companion choices, why don't we rank them?

River > Amy > Clara > Martha > (Rory's Dad > Donna's Dad >) Rory > Jack > Donna > Rose > Mickey

[WanderingWinder]

As long as we're talking our potentially controversial companion choices, why don't we rank them?

River > Amy > Clara > Martha > (Rory's Dad > Donna's Dad >) Rory > Jack > Donna > Rose > Mickey

Donna's Dad is never seen - he died before her first appearance in the series. Presumably you're talking about Wilf, her grandfather. /pedantic
On a less technical note, what about all the other pre-revival companions, or... Adam, Sarah Jane, Astrid (okay, yeah I wouldn't include her either), Craig, or for Pete's sake, at least Jackie?

Anyway, yeah Dr. Who is fantasy (perhaps Science Fantasy or Space Fantasy or I have no problem with Time Travel Fantasy). But Star Trek, no, that's genuinely Sci-Fi. Or at least it was until the last couple movies...

[Davio]

Dr Who is Sci-Fi Opera, it's so surreal and over-the-top sometimes, it at least feels that way.
Hey, they even did Dr Who at the Proms, and moreover, I even watched it!

[Voltaire]

On a less technical note, what about all the other pre-revival companions, or... Adam, Sarah Jane, Astrid (okay, yeah I wouldn't include her either), Craig, or for Pete's sake, at least Jackie?

Haven't seen nearly enough of anyone but the original three...so Ian > Barbara > Susan.

[Kuildeous]

Ian seemed like a pretty solid character from what little I've seen.

Hey, did they ever resolve the fact that the Doctor has a granddaughter? I think I recall (possibly incorrectly) in the Dr. Who specials that they talk about his granddaughter but then just never made mention of it after the first series.

I mean, he had a daughter (kind of), so they could have tied that into Jenny.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Hey, did they ever resolve the fact that the Doctor has a granddaughter? I think I recall (possibly incorrectly) in the Dr. Who specials that they talk about his granddaughter but then just never made mention of it after the first series.

That would be Susan!

[jsh357]

Ian seemed like a pretty solid character from what little I've seen.

Hey, did they ever resolve the fact that the Doctor has a granddaughter? I think I recall (possibly incorrectly) in the Dr. Who specials that they talk about his granddaughter but then just never made mention of it after the first series.

I mean, he had a daughter (kind of), so they could have tied that into Jenny.

Susan was his first companion in the classic series.  She is living on Earth at some point in the future now.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Donna's Dad is never seen - he died before her first appearance in the series. Presumably you're talking about Wilf, her grandfather. /pedantic
On a less technical note, what about all the other pre-revival companions, or... Adam, Sarah Jane, Astrid (okay, yeah I wouldn't include her either), Craig, or for Pete's sake, at least Jackie?

Anyway, yeah Dr. Who is fantasy (perhaps Science Fantasy or Space Fantasy or I have no problem with Time Travel Fantasy). But Star Trek, no, that's genuinely Sci-Fi. Or at least it was until the last couple movies...

Gah!  Yes, I was talking about her Grandfather.  And that isn't the first time I've been corrected on that, I just can't get it into my head that he isn't her father for some reason, maybe because I don't like the Donna episodes enough to watch them much (aside from a few instant classics like Silence in the Library).

Original series companions:

Ace >> everyone else >> Adric

Hmmm more seriously

Ace > The Brigadier > Sarah Jane > Jamie > Romana > Turlugh > Ian > Barbara > Susan > Nyssa > Tegan > Adric

Those are the ones that immediately come to mind in attempting to rank, not sure how I'd fit others in.  I've been watching Davison episodes recently.

[Kuildeous]

Gah!  Yes, I was talking about her Grandfather.  And that isn't the first time I've been corrected on that, I just can't get it into my head that he isn't her father for some reason, maybe because I don't like the Donna episodes enough to watch them much (aside from a few instant classics like Silence in the Library).

Well, and Wilf is a better parent than Donna's mother. Her mother is just downright rotten and miserable, and I just kind of wished that maybe she was replaced with some alien. It does explain why Donna was so neurotic.

But I hate the character of Donna's mother.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Gah!  Yes, I was talking about her Grandfather.  And that isn't the first time I've been corrected on that, I just can't get it into my head that he isn't her father for some reason, maybe because I don't like the Donna episodes enough to watch them much (aside from a few instant classics like Silence in the Library).

Well, and Wilf is a better parent than Donna's mother. Her mother is just downright rotten and miserable, and I just kind of wished that maybe she was replaced with some alien. It does explain why Donna was so neurotic.

But I hate the character of Donna's mother.

Agreed 110%.

[Kuildeous]

I mean, at least I can see where Martha's mother and Rose's mother were coming from. They were overly protective of their daughters who were just whisked away by this madman in a box. So, while their actions initially started off as adversarial, their motivations were pure. Donna's mother was just a jerk through and through. They tried to bring her some redemption at the end when she recognized that her daughter was not just some prat, but it was too late for me.

[Voltaire]

Hey, did they ever resolve the fact that the Doctor has a granddaughter?

The Doctor mentioning in the most recent season that he traveled somewhere with his granddaughter is the first time in the modern series they've explicitly mentioned Susan and his granddaughter (he's mentioned having a family once, and some other vague stuff)...and then she's seen (played by a body-double) in the most recent episode. Which is interesting as I think it's the first time we've ever got a canon clarification that Susan was with him when he stole the TARDIS and ran away.

But no, overall, big picture, no explanation/clarification. Though he does now have a wife (River) and "daughter" (Jenny), so his having a granddaughter is now less weird, if still unexplained.

[ConMan]

Susan was his first companion in the classic series.  She is living on Earth at some point in the future now.

Eh, it gets complicated. Susan left the TARDIS to join a guy in the 21st/22nd Century fighting against the Dalek invasion, but the timeline has changed so much since then that that particular future probably doesn't exist any more. I think it was implied that all Time Lords were effectively conscripted into the Time War, of which the Doctor is the only* survivor, and that that includes Susan. Of course the universe has been rebooted once or twice since that event, but again it's pretty clear that it's still a universe free of excess Time Lords.

But no, overall, big picture, no explanation/clarification. Though he does now have a wife (River) and "daughter" (Jenny), so his having a granddaughter is now less weird, if still unexplained.

Although neither River nor Jenny has any particular bearing on Susan's existence at this point - the Doctor never met either of them prior to his Tennant regeneration, but he did have ~900 years in his first regeneration** in which he apparently became a father and then a grandfather.

* Barring certain edgecases, of which Susan is not explicitly included.
** Which suggests that he's become careless in his old age, having managed to use up 9 regenerations in the span of a few decades, and the current one has lasted 200 years only by virtue of not appearing on screen for most of that time, and apparently that's about as much as he's getting unless there's another time skip in the Christmas special.

[Voltaire]

But no, overall, big picture, no explanation/clarification. Though he does now have a wife (River) and "daughter" (Jenny), so his having a granddaughter is now less weird, if still unexplained.

Although neither River nor Jenny has any particular bearing on Susan's existence at this point - the Doctor never met either of them prior to his Tennant regeneration, but he did have ~900 years in his first regeneration** in which he apparently became a father and then a grandfather.

* Barring certain edgecases, of which Susan is not explicitly included.
** Which suggests that he's become careless in his old age, having managed to use up 9 regenerations in the span of a few decades, and the current one has lasted 200 years only by virtue of not appearing on screen for most of that time, and apparently that's about as much as he's getting unless there's another time skip in the Christmas special.

But it would be wonderfully timey-wimey, and totally possible, if he becomes a father as 12, for example, and then that person has a daughter (Susan), who ends up traveling with him in his first incarnation. If they ever explain her, I actually assume it'll be something like that.

He didn't have 900 years in his first regeneration at all, unless I'm very much misunderstanding you. I always though (no idea where I got it) that it was about 400 years for 1st Doctor. I mean, yes, 9 is very short and 10 isn't very long. So yeah, he's been blowing through reincarnations lately, but this timeline has always been strange. I think it's odd they're being consistent with it in the new show. He was "thousands" of years old at one point in the old show.

[Voltaire]

Nobody? Well, put me down in the camp that is very excited and happy with yesterday overall.

[Kirian]

Nobody? Well, put me down in the camp that is very excited and happy with yesterday overall.

It'll be quite a change.  The only actor older than this to play the Doctor was William Hartnell... and only by a few months.  They may have to tone down the adventurousness of the Doctor, just because what he does might otherwise look incongruous.

Also I think this is the only actor to have appeared previously in an episode (Fires of Pompeii).

[Voltaire]

Also I think this is the only actor to have appeared previously in an episode (Fires of Pompeii).

He's definitely the only one to have a speaking role, but the 6th doctor (C. Baker) appeared in an episode with the 5th Doctor. He was head of the Time Lord guards tasked with taking the Doctor away to be executed!

[jsh357]

I think he'll be great.  Looking forward to it.

[Davio]

Nobody? Well, put me down in the camp that is very excited and happy with yesterday overall.

It'll be quite a change.  The only actor older than this to play the Doctor was William Hartnell... and only by a few months.  They may have to tone down the adventurousness of the Doctor, just because what he does might otherwise look incongruous.

Also I think this is the only actor to have appeared previously in an episode (Fires of Pompeii).

Hey, I just noticed that Karen Gillan (who would of course later star as Amy Pond) also appeared in Fires of Pompeii, as a ... wait for it ... Soothsayer!
I guess she gave the Doctor some Gold?

[Kirian]

Squeee!

[Voltaire]

I CAN'T WATCH THIS UNTIL I GET BACK FROM WORK. HOLY ***********************.

Also, I super-lucked out and got 6 tickets for my friends for the theater screening in Chicago for the 50th, and I'm going to a big Doctor Who trivia this weekend...my life has been nothing but Who for the past two weeks and will be for the next two, and it's amazing!

[Galzria]

I CAN'T WATCH THIS UNTIL I GET BACK FROM WORK. HOLY ***********************.

Also, I super-lucked out and got 6 tickets for my friends for the theater screening in Chicago for the 50th, and I'm going to a big Doctor Who trivia this weekend...my life has been nothing but Who for the past two weeks and will be for the next two, and it's amazing!

Same. Scored tickets up in San Francisco. 9 days now....

[Ozle]

Nobody? Well, put me down in the camp that is very excited and happy with yesterday overall.

It'll be quite a change.  The only actor older than this to play the Doctor was William Hartnell... and only by a few months.  They may have to tone down the adventurousness of the Doctor, just because what he does might otherwise look incongruous.

Also I think this is the only actor to have appeared previously in an episode (Fires of Pompeii).

Hey, I just noticed that Karen Gillan (who would of course later star as Amy Pond) also appeared in Fires of Pompeii, as a ... wait for it ... Soothsayer!
I guess she gave the Doctor some Gold?

Freema Agyeman (Martha Jones) also appeared in an episode as someone else, one of the cybermen episodes before she was a full time role.

I also have quite a crush on Jenna Coleman...

[Voltaire]

Freema Agyeman (Martha Jones) also appeared in an episode as someone else, one of the cybermen episodes before she was a full time role.

I think they later say that was her cousin (as their ret-con). I actually re-watched that two-parter last night. It's Rose's goodbye episode (at least, it should have been!).

[Ozle]

How many final appearances has she had now?

[Voltaire]

How many final appearances has she had now?

Well, does in-universe stuff like the fact the Doctor intended to leave her behind in "The Parting of the Ways" count?

[Galzria]

How many final appearances has she had now?

She left at the end of S2.
She was back at the end of S4.
She got her goodbye at the end of Tennant's specials.
She's back again* in some form in the 50th

Freema played "her own cousin" back in the series finale of S2, before she was cast as the companion for S3.
Karen played a Soothsayer in episode 2 of S4, "Fires of Pompeii" before being cast as the companion in S5.
Peter Capaldi played a Father in "Fires of Pompeii" before being cast as the next Doctor, following Smith.

Also, crossover to Torchwood, but Eve Myles played a character in Episode 3 of S1 (can't recall character name) before being cast in Torchwood.

And honestly, even prior to the reboot it was a fairly common occurrence for people to play different parts prior to being full-cast. The BBC tends to use a relatively small (seemingly) selection of actors when it comes to their shows. Once you've made it, you're in everything (not that I'm complaining. The talent is certainly worth it!).

[Galzria]

And yes, I refer to the sessions from the reboot perspective if I'm talking current Who, because it's just easier.

[Kirian]

Also, crossover to Torchwood, but Eve Myles played a character in Episode 3 of S1 (can't recall character name) before being cast in Torchwood.

That character's name was Gwyneth.  And her character in Torchwood is Gwen.  Rose does a double take about this when they meet Gwen at Torchwood in S4, and the Doctor explains it away with some timey-wimey mumbo-jumbo.

[ashersky]

I recently asked a Dr. Who fan where to start watching if I wanted to try to get into it.  She said "Tennant" then work backwards.  Is that right?

I think I'll just stick to the TRUE longest running sci-fi show ever, Stargate.  It was never canceled a million times, you know.

(I love geek wars.  SG1 vs. Dr. Who is one or the more hilariously absurd ones.)

[Voltaire]

I recently asked a Dr. Who fan where to start watching if I wanted to try to get into it.  She said "Tennant" then work backwards.  Is that right?

Eh, I wouldn't actually say that. I'd say start from the beginning if you like old-time TV or radio and are a completist uber-nerd (like me!). Otherwise start with "Rose" (Ninth Doctor) or "The Eleventh Hour" (Eleventh Doctor). If you don't like Ninth Doctor, there's only one season and then you have Tennant (Tenth Doctor), who is usually everyone's favorite in the new series. Plus, the show is designed to be started with 9 (and 11, in a small way) in that they make sure to explain the world etc. etc. whereas it's a bit more "deep end" if you go with the start of 10.

But it's not like it's a cerebral murder mystery or anything, you can truly start anywhere you want and you'll be fine.

[Kirian]

I recently asked a Dr. Who fan where to start watching if I wanted to try to get into it.  She said "Tennant" then work backwards.  Is that right?

Eh, I wouldn't actually say that. I'd say start from the beginning if you like old-time TV or radio and are a completist uber-nerd (like me!). Otherwise start with "Rose" (Ninth Doctor) or "The Eleventh Hour" (Eleventh Doctor). If you don't like Ninth Doctor, there's only one season and then you have Tennant (Tenth Doctor), who is usually everyone's favorite in the new series. Plus, the show is designed to be started with 9 (and 11, in a small way) in that they make sure to explain the world etc. etc. whereas it's a bit more "deep end" if you go with the start of 10.

But it's not like it's a cerebral murder mystery or anything, you can truly start anywhere you want and you'll be fine.

Indeed, much like TNG, or for that matter the original Star Trek, the series is very episodic.  There are certainly arcs--you should probably avoid the various series finales, because they all but require watching the rest of the season (or more, the S6 finale essentially requires you to have seen back to S4, won't say any more, spoilers you know).

Lots of people recommend starting with "Blink," which is actually the first of the new series that I saw.  But I think just starting with the Ninth Doctor is usually the best.

[Ozle]

Yeah, I'm not a massive fan but I've watched most of the new series, definitely skip all the old retro ones unless you turn into a massive fan.

Some of the retro ones were a bit like SG1 when it ran out of funding (flashback shows, and ones entirely set indoors or on base)

[Eevee]

Yeah, I'm not a massive fan but I've watched most of the new series, definitely skip all the old retro ones unless you turn into a massive fan.

Some of the retro ones were a bit like SG1 when it ran out of funding (flashback shows, and ones entirely set indoors or on base)

It's always so weird to see Ozle post coherent stuff.

Oh wait, I think this was the first time!

[Ozle]

Yeah, I'm not a massive fan but I've watched most of the new series, definitely skip all the old retro ones unless you turn into a massive fan.

Some of the retro ones were a bit like SG1 when it ran out of funding (flashback shows, and ones entirely set indoors or on base)

It's always so weird to see Ozle post coherent stuff.

Oh wait, I think this was the first time.

Technically this has a jokey poke at SG1 in it...

[jsh357]

You should definitely start with "Rose."  There is nothing as blatantly unwatchable as typical Season 1 TNG in NuWho.  And hey, a lot of people like the 9th Doctor the most too. 

[Ozle]

Clearly Paul McGann was the best Doctor....

[Ozle]

Also, just watching a Dr Who themed Never Mind the Buzzcocks, Bernard Cribbins is awesome and pretty sure Catherine Tate is wasted...

[ashersky]

I just really don't like the Eccleston dude.  I've never seen his Dr. Who, but I don't like him in anything else.

[Voltaire]

I just really don't like the Eccleston dude.  I've never seen his Dr. Who, but I don't like him in anything else.

I freakin' loved him in Heroes.

Oh god I just admitted I watched that show

[Morgrim7]

My sister just recently god super obsessed with this. I watched the first couple episodes of the first season, wasn't all that impressed. Then again, they say that the first season is the worst...

[eHalcyon]

I just really don't like the Eccleston dude.  I've never seen his Dr. Who, but I don't like him in anything else.

I freakin' loved him in Heroes.

Oh god I just admitted I watched that show

Heroes was excellent until the Writer's Strike.  I still saw it through to the end though, because I am loyal to a fault when it comes to TV shows.

[Voltaire]

My sister just recently god super obsessed with this. I watched the first couple episodes of the first season, wasn't all that impressed. Then again, they say that the first season is the worst...

It just slowly gets better and better. I'm re-watching it right now (the early stuff from 2005ish, that is) and it's barely recognizable as the same show with the 11th Doctor in it from a production point of view (by which I mean better writing, acting, directing, cinematography, the whole nine yards).

[sudgy]

I'm finding it funny how everybody talks about the early episodes meaning from several years ago when my dad is watching the ACTUAL early episodes (60s).

[Voltaire]

I'm finding it funny how everybody talks about the early episodes meaning from several years ago when my dad is watching the ACTUAL early episodes (60s).

I mean, I'm doing that too! I'm currently up to "The Space Museum" (watching in order, I've seen many random episodes from then on).

I'm dressing up as the First Doctor for the 50th and everything.

[Galzria]

Also, just watching a Dr Who themed Never Mind the Buzzcocks, Bernard Cribbins is awesome and pretty sure Catherine Tate is wasted...

.... Is Bernard Cribbins ever NOT just the most adorable and completely awesome person ever?

.... and is Catherine Tate ever actually sober?

[Davio]

I just really don't like the Eccleston dude.  I've never seen his Dr. Who, but I don't like him in anything else.

I freakin' loved him in Heroes.

Oh god I just admitted I watched that show

Well, we'll just take it that you watched the series before the writers strike.
I watched the entire series, hoping it would pick up again, now there's some time I'd love to get back.

[jsh357]

I, too, watched all of heroes.  Season 3b was good, but everything else was a train wreck.  I kept hoping and hoping it would improve.

[Ozle]

I watched up to the end of series 1, which then had the massive cop out.

And then was ruined from 2 onwards pretty much by the writers efforts to make it never ending.

It started off with a few special people with powers and a big bad guy.

Sylar should have died at the end of series 1, thats what it was building up too and it not happening was a massive cop out which implied lack of original ideas and the need to carry over the same ideas.

By the end of it, everyone had special powers, even the guy who was investigating them.

[Polk5440]

I watched up to the end of series 1, which then had the massive cop out.

And then was ruined from 2 onwards pretty much by the writers efforts to make it never ending.

So, you should like Season 5 onwards better. It's much more episodic and much less dependent on previous stuff. Much more like Season 1 -- only with a bigger budget, better companions, and fewer cop-outs!

[jsh357]

I watched up to the end of series 1, which then had the massive cop out.

And then was ruined from 2 onwards pretty much by the writers efforts to make it never ending.

So, you should like Season 5 onwards better. It's much more episodic and much less dependent on previous stuff. Much more like Season 1 -- only with a bigger budget, better companions, and fewer cop-outs!

He is talking about Heroes

[Polk5440]

I watched up to the end of series 1, which then had the massive cop out.

And then was ruined from 2 onwards pretty much by the writers efforts to make it never ending.

So, you should like Season 5 onwards better. It's much more episodic and much less dependent on previous stuff. Much more like Season 1 -- only with a bigger budget, better companions, and fewer cop-outs!

He is talking about Heroes

Whoops! Missed that. Seemed applicable to Doctor Who Season 1 at first glance, too....

[markusin]

Blink has to be the episode. This is the episode I show to someone who had not seen Doctor Who before.

This is the episode my friend used to introduce me to Doctor Who.

The show is very intriguing a lot of the time. I haven't seen any of the classics. I've watched most of the first two seasons, but not much else.

It's hard to say what my favourite episode or alien/monster is, as I haven't seen those episodes in a while. "The Empty Child"/"The Doctor Dances" stuck out for me though, as did "The Girl in the Fireplace". I could have liked the Daleks if they weren't so overused, even in the reboot.

[Galzria]

Blink has to be the episode. This is the episode I show to someone who had not seen Doctor Who before.

This is the episode my friend used to introduce me to Doctor Who.

The show is very intriguing a lot of the time. I haven't seen any of the classics. I've watched most of the first two seasons, but not much else.

It's hard to say what my favourite episode or alien/monster is, as I haven't seen those episodes in a while. "The Empty Child"/"The Doctor Dances" stuck out for me though, as did "The Girl in the Fireplace". I could have liked the Daleks if they weren't so overused, even in the reboot.

All 4 episodes mentioned in this post were written by Steven Moffat. While I still enjoy the series immensely, I feel that very little written by Moffat since he took over as head showrunner from RTD has reached the height of the above four episodes. He was at his best when all he had to do was tell a story, instead of write a series.

[Ozle]

Its Children in Need tonight.......there is usually a Doctor Who part

[Voltaire]

Its Children in Need tonight.......there is usually a Doctor Who part

It was a 2-minute clip from the 50th...you can watch it here, unless you're me, in which case you're stuck at work.

[Asper]

I just got into the show some time ago... Watched the first season which had the eleventh doctor (Smith) and really liked it. I have no access to his next season, so right now i'm watching the first season of #9 (Ecclestone) and while i don't like them as much, it's probably because i'm not used to the doctors old face. Or is it new? Damn that time travelling...

[Kuildeous]

I just really don't like the Eccleston dude.  I've never seen his Dr. Who, but I don't like him in anything else.

I thought he was brilliant in Shallow Grave. His character wasn't all that likable, but then again, all of the characters were pretty much jerks. You felt sorry and repulsed by all of them at different stages.

I recently saw him in eXistenZ, though his character was a bit of a bore (which was admitted in the story as well, which was interesting).

He's an interesting Doctor, though he is not as whimsical as Tenant and Smith. He's cavalier about what's happening, but he also has a bit of a callous side to him.

I would say that Tenant and Smith are more fun.

I'm not familiar with the previous Doctors, though I have Netflix now and could remedy that.

[Galzria]

I just really don't like the Eccleston dude.  I've never seen his Dr. Who, but I don't like him in anything else.

I thought he was brilliant in Shallow Grave. His character wasn't all that likable, but then again, all of the characters were pretty much jerks. You felt sorry and repulsed by all of them at different stages.

I recently saw him in eXistenZ, though his character was a bit of a bore (which was admitted in the story as well, which was interesting).

He's an interesting Doctor, though he is not as whimsical as Tenant and Smith. He's cavalier about what's happening, but he also has a bit of a callous side to him.

I would say that Tenant and Smith are more fun.

I'm not familiar with the previous Doctors, though I have Netflix now and could remedy that.

And yet really, you have to view him for who the character is at that point in the story. He's just come (or recently enough, anyway) from the Time War. He's very scarred, and very rough still. He's lost a lot of the life and whimsical nature that is often associated with The Doctor. He just went through a transformation of sorts (different than Regeneration), and he's not yet healed from the things that he did in the name of... Justice? Righteousness? Self-Reward? Anger?... Who knows. (Hopefully all of us quite soon!)

It's what makes the story of Rose so poignant. The Doctor so often saves humanity, but here she is, saving him. This is very well written in the story of "Dalek", when Rose puts herself between the Dalek and the Doctor, begging the Doctor not to harm the Dalek. The Doctor's war crazed anger and fury releases as he demands Rose move so that he can destroy this thing that has caused so much damage throughout the universe - this thing that is a danger to the very existence of reality, and Rose responds "He's not the one pointing a gun at me".

Yes, Eccleston lacks the whimsy and compassion and overall likability that Smith or Tenant bring. But for who he is emotionally, I think he's quite perfect for the role.

[Kirian]

Regeneration), and he's not yet healed from the things that he did in the name of... Justice? Righteousness? Self-Reward? Anger?... Who knows. (Hopefully all of us quite soon!)

I don't think it's too much of a spoiler (at this point) to say that he did it in the name of Peace and Sanity.  Very specifically.

[ashersky]

I was flipping through the channels and stopped on a random Dr. Who.  The doctor was extremely young looking.  I was immediately uninterested by whatever was happening (something with Daleks in the title) and the doctor was unimpressive to say the least.

I clearly need to start with a different Doctor than that one.

[Kirian]

I was flipping through the channels and stopped on a random Dr. Who.  The doctor was extremely young looking.  I was immediately uninterested by whatever was happening (something with Daleks in the title) and the doctor was unimpressive to say the least.

I clearly need to start with a different Doctor than that one.

That's presumably the current Doctor, Matt Smith.  He's actually quite good.  Maybe you just need to start with a different episode?  (Or alternately just from the beginning of the episode.)

[Voltaire]

I was flipping through the channels and stopped on a random Dr. Who.  The doctor was extremely young looking.  I was immediately uninterested by whatever was happening (something with Daleks in the title) and the doctor was unimpressive to say the least.

I clearly need to start with a different Doctor than that one.

That's presumably the current Doctor, Matt Smith.  He's actually quite good.  Maybe you just need to start with a different episode?  (Or alternately just from the beginning of the episode.)

I just re-watched The Eleventh Hour recently (Matt Smith's first episode), and it's better than I remember (I remember it being very good). It should be a great introduction to the show.

And honestly, it's not for everyone. If you keep not liking it, it might just not be your thing.

[ashersky]

I was flipping through the channels and stopped on a random Dr. Who.  The doctor was extremely young looking.  I was immediately uninterested by whatever was happening (something with Daleks in the title) and the doctor was unimpressive to say the least.

I clearly need to start with a different Doctor than that one.

That's presumably the current Doctor, Matt Smith.  He's actually quite good.  Maybe you just need to start with a different episode?  (Or alternately just from the beginning of the episode.)

I just re-watched The Eleventh Hour recently (Matt Smith's first episode), and it's better than I remember (I remember it being very good). It should be a great introduction to the show.

And honestly, it's not for everyone. If you keep not liking it, it might just not be your thing.

It seems like it should be my thing, though.  As mentioned, I adore SG:1/Atlantis/Universe.  I did the TNG thing.  Lost.  Fringe (randomly met John Noble recently, btw).  Etc.

Then again, I found Firefly to be horribly overrated by Whedonites around the world.  Nice show and all, but it was basically Farscape with better CGI.  Nowhere near as good as Angel.

[Kirian]

Then again, I found Firefly to be horribly overrated ...  Nowhere near as good as Angel.

You're dead to me.

[ashersky]

Then again, I found Firefly to be horribly overrated ...  Nowhere near as good as Angel.

You're dead to me.

You should just curse at me in fake Chinese.

[() | (_) ^/]

Then again, I found Firefly to be horribly overrated ...  Nowhere near as good as Angel.

You're dead to me.

You should just curse at me in fake Chinese.

Too late already did.

But then I praised your bravery in Klingon...
... and quickly translated an old prophecy on a tablet left behind by the Ancients that describes an upcoming shower of wealth that shall soon befall you if you push seven (or eight) (or nine) symbols in the correct order.

So I'm not sure where it all ended up.

[ashersky]

Then again, I found Firefly to be horribly overrated ...  Nowhere near as good as Angel.

You're dead to me.

You should just curse at me in fake Chinese.

Too late already did.

But then I praised your bravery in Klingon...
... and quickly translated an old prophecy on a tablet left behind by the Ancients that describes an upcoming shower of wealth that shall soon befall you if you push seven (or eight) (or nine) symbols in the correct order.

So I'm not sure where it all ended up.

Atlantis, obviously.  Or back in time in Soviet Russia.

[manda2014]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/aaron-sagers/exclusive-tom-baker-to-ap_b_4295773.html

Can... can it be true? Is Four really coming back?

[Kirian]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/aaron-sagers/exclusive-tom-baker-to-ap_b_4295773.html

Can... can it be true? Is Four really coming back?

If it sounds too good to be true, it usually is.

Then again, Moffett is very good about not letting anything slip.

[jsh357]

Well, they got Davison and McGann already so anything's possible I guess.  It'd be cool to see Tom Baker (or Colin or McCoy), but I can't imagine him playing a big role.

[Voltaire]

Spoiler tags please on anything like that! 

[manda2014]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/aaron-sagers/exclusive-tom-baker-to-ap_b_4295773.html

Can... can it be true? Is Four really coming back?

Fixed it.

[WanderingWinder]

Anyone know where it's possible to see the Mini-sode "The Last Day" that was released today?

[Galzria]

Anyone know where it's possible to see the Mini-sode "The Last Day" that was released today?

http://www.doctorwhotv.co.uk/50th-minisode-the-last-day-55748.htm

[Kirian]

Anyone know where it's possible to see the Mini-sode "The Last Day" that was released today?

http://www.doctorwhotv.co.uk/50th-minisode-the-last-day-55748.htm

Well that was... less exciting than one could have hoped.

[Kirian]

This is awesome.  Spoilers... ish... ness.

[ashersky]

Why is he Dr. Who and not Dr. When?

[Davio]

Happy 50th guys, enjoy Google's Doodle! http://www.google.com

Funny Trivia: The next actor portraying doctor Who, Peter Capaldi, played a WHO doctor in the movie World War Z.

WHO stands for World Health Organization in this contest, still I found it pretty funny.

[Voltaire]

I watched An Adventure in Space and Time last night (historical drama about the start of Doctor Who, written by current DW and Sherlock writer Mark Gatiss). It's amazing. You should watch it too.

[Galzria]

I watched An Adventure in Space and Time last night (historical drama about the start of Doctor Who, written by current DW and Sherlock writer Mark Gatiss). It's amazing. You should watch it too.

It doesn't air until tonight. I'll be at work.

[Polk5440]

I watched An Adventure in Space and Time last night (historical drama about the start of Doctor Who, written by current DW and Sherlock writer Mark Gatiss). It's amazing. You should watch it too.

Really? I am surprised! I wasn't planning on watching it, but maybe I will.

[Voltaire]

I watched An Adventure in Space and Time last night (historical drama about the start of Doctor Who, written by current DW and Sherlock writer Mark Gatiss). It's amazing. You should watch it too.

Really? I am surprised! I wasn't planning on watching it, but maybe I will.

You don't even have to know/care much about the early days of the show to enjoy it - my roommate, who has only seen the modern series (and isn't mega-obsessed with it or anything, but does like it) also thought it was fantastic.

[Galzria]

I watched An Adventure in Space and Time last night (historical drama about the start of Doctor Who, written by current DW and Sherlock writer Mark Gatiss). It's amazing. You should watch it too.

Really? I am surprised! I wasn't planning on watching it, but maybe I will.

David Bradley, while perhaps not carrying the voice of Hartnell, is a still a striking image of likeness in mannerisms and attitude. And from what I understand, Jessica Raine really shines.

Mark Gatiss did something similar to this years ago, and it really wasn't up to standard - but having that experience under his belt, An Adventure in Space and Time is a wonderful trip back to the early days of Who.

Plus, c'mon, how awesome is the idea of bringing TV of 50 years ago back to life in color and modern times? All of a sudden, an era so distant (not in time, mind you, but in technological evolution) becomes connected to the world we know and see today. All of a sudden, the show of our childhood, or the show of our parents, relates to what we know to be Doctor Who today - and that's important, because the show we watch today simply isn't the show of 50 years ago. TV has changed, and with it so have the shows we love. For Doctor Who, especially in this, it's 50th year, the feeling of connection to the roots of the show is very nice indeed.

#geekmoment

[ashersky]

Tried to watch a random episode last night.  The tv said it was season 17...looked like Black Adder in space without the comedy.  Felt old.  Was that an old one?  The doc had crazy big hair, a hippie girlfriend, and was talking to the bad guy officers from The original Star Wars.

[Voltaire]

Tried to watch a random episode last night.  The tv said it was season 17...looked like Black Adder in space without the comedy.  Felt old.  Was that an old one?  The doc had crazy big hair, a hippie girlfriend, and was talking to the bad guy officers from The original Star Wars.

Season 17? That would have been Fourth Doctor, the old show (your episode is from either 1979 or 1980). That's the critical consensus best Doctor of the old series (you'll invoke the DW version of Kirk/Picard debating Fourth Doctor/Tenth Doctor). I don't know what serial you were watching, maybe someone else can ID it from your Star Wars clue.

[Ozle]

Its bloody every otherprogram about Dr Who here at the moment.

Its getting a bit annoying, next up is 'the science of Dr Who' as if they have ever followed scientific principles or anything

[Voltaire]

Its bloody every otherprogram about Dr Who here at the moment.

Its getting a bit annoying, next up is 'the science of Dr Who' as if they have ever followed scientific principles or anything

It's 50 years, let us annoy you for one week. 

[Asper]

Have there been cards yet? If not:

Dalek
Action - Duration, 0$
+ 1 Card
+ 1 Action
This card stays in play until the end of the game.
----
While this is in play, whenever you or another player trashes a a card, you may shout "EXTERMINATE!".

[Galzria]

Its bloody every otherprogram about Dr Who here at the moment.

Its getting a bit annoying, next up is 'the science of Dr Who' as if they have ever followed scientific principles or anything

While we don't have it on BBC1, 2, 3, 4 etc...

BBCA has been running every current episode from Ecclestone to Smith, in order, broken only long enough to show the specials (Science of, Companions of, Stories from, etc). This started Tuesday at 6:00 am and is running through Saturday. I think between 4:00-5:00 am each morning they do an hour of BBC World News, but that's it for anything not Doctor Who.

[jsh357]

Its bloody every otherprogram about Dr Who here at the moment.

Its getting a bit annoying, next up is 'the science of Dr Who' as if they have ever followed scientific principles or anything

While we don't have it on BBC1, 2, 3, 4 etc...

BBCA has been running every current episode from Ecclestone to Smith, in order, broken only long enough to show the specials (Science of, Companions of, Stories from, etc). This started Tuesday at 6:00 am and is running through Saturday. I think between 4:00-5:00 am each morning they do an hour of BBC World News, but that's it for anything not Doctor Who.

BBCA also got those "The Doctor Revisited" specials while the real BBC didn't.

You didn't miss much.

[ashersky]

Tried to watch a random episode last night.  The tv said it was season 17...looked like Black Adder in space without the comedy.  Felt old.  Was that an old one?  The doc had crazy big hair, a hippie girlfriend, and was talking to the bad guy officers from The original Star Wars.

Season 17? That would have been Fourth Doctor, the old show (your episode is from either 1979 or 1980). That's the critical consensus best Doctor of the old series (you'll invoke the DW version of Kirk/Picard debating Fourth Doctor/Tenth Doctor). I don't know what serial you were watching, maybe someone else can ID it from your Star Wars clue.

It was Part 3 of something, if that helps.

[Voltaire]

Tried to watch a random episode last night.  The tv said it was season 17...looked like Black Adder in space without the comedy.  Felt old.  Was that an old one?  The doc had crazy big hair, a hippie girlfriend, and was talking to the bad guy officers from The original Star Wars.

Season 17? That would have been Fourth Doctor, the old show (your episode is from either 1979 or 1980). That's the critical consensus best Doctor of the old series (you'll invoke the DW version of Kirk/Picard debating Fourth Doctor/Tenth Doctor). I don't know what serial you were watching, maybe someone else can ID it from your Star Wars clue.

It was Part 3 of something, if that helps.

Unfortunately it doesn't. Everything that season was a 4-parter.

You're definitely not consuming it in a good way by watching a random episode of a serial - they're broadcast in parts and will likely seem pretty random/nonsensical on their own. A random serial (multi-part episode from the old series) or random episode (from the new series) is the only way to go.

It gets a little tricky with the different formats between the old/new!

[Ozle]

Thats the thing though, they are showing everything EXCEPT Dr Who episodes!

[ashersky]

Tried to watch a random episode last night.  The tv said it was season 17...looked like Black Adder in space without the comedy.  Felt old.  Was that an old one?  The doc had crazy big hair, a hippie girlfriend, and was talking to the bad guy officers from The original Star Wars.

Season 17? That would have been Fourth Doctor, the old show (your episode is from either 1979 or 1980). That's the critical consensus best Doctor of the old series (you'll invoke the DW version of Kirk/Picard debating Fourth Doctor/Tenth Doctor). I don't know what serial you were watching, maybe someone else can ID it from your Star Wars clue.

It was Part 3 of something, if that helps.

Unfortunately it doesn't. Everything that season was a 4-parter.

You're definitely not consuming it in a good way by watching a random episode of a serial - they're broadcast in parts and will likely seem pretty random/nonsensical on their own. A random serial (multi-part episode from the old series) or random episode (from the new series) is the only way to go.

It gets a little tricky with the different formats between the old/new!

It was this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destiny_of_the_Daleks

[Tables]

So tomorrow the university society I'm kind of still part of (it's where I play board games for 8 hours a week ) is doing a Doctor Who special, watching some favourite old series and new ones over the course of the afternoon, followed by - obviously - the 50th anniversary episode in the evening. Should be pretty exciting.

[SirPeebles]

Today's google doodle is a Dr. Who game.

[Kirian]

It's today!!!

#SaveTheDay

[Galzria]

#SaveTheDay

Up in San Francisco now, getting an early breakfast before finding the theatre!

[Kirian]

#SaveTheDay

Up in San Francisco now, getting an early breakfast before finding the theatre!

You lucky dog, you, living in a city where the simulcast is in the theater!

I, alas, do not have that luxury, nor do I have cable, so I'll be buying it on Amazon tomorrow.

----

Also, you, go post your build in Ground Floor so we can move to the next round!!

[Ozle]

This is going to be a massive anti climax you realise?

The cinema here is doing it in 3D, but cant be arsed.

[Ozle]

hang on, have i missed something

last bit i remember was Clara entered the doctors timestream and was fighting his battles in there. Now she is back teaching at a school? Did I miss something?

[Dsell]

Whooooooo! The special was so good!

[Ozle]

Apart from the really stupid bit...

[Teproc]

Yeah, the plot had problems, but it always does. I generally dislike the "big" episodes (finales especially, Bad Wolf/Parting of the Ways is the only one I kinda like, and even that has that giant Deus Ex Machina), but this was really much more fun than I anticipated it to be. I thought we would get the regen into Capaldi though, so I guess they're keeping that for Christmas ?

[Ozle]

Yeah, regen is Christmas

So is no one else find it terrible the way that the Daleks killed themselves by the planet suddenly dissapearing? That somehow A) all the of the Daleks were at that one point in time and space, and that the flow of weapons (which we could see, and wasn't complete coverage by any stretch) went across the gap and managed to hit every other dalek in existence? These are some of the most fiendish warriors in existence...

[Voltaire]

It was amazing.

[Jdaki]

After a manic effort to finish Season 7 Part 2 before Saturday, I very much enjoyed the anniversary special. What I'd like to know is how much time is meant to have passed between the newly revealed Doctor 9 Hurt and us seeing him as Doctor 10 Ecclestone. Though interesting they are saying it's all Bad Wolf doing a super sort out...

[Voltaire]

After a manic effort to finish Season 7 Part 2 before Saturday, I very much enjoyed the anniversary special. What I'd like to know is how much time is meant to have passed between the newly revealed Doctor 9 Hurt and us seeing him as Doctor 10 Ecclestone. Though interesting they are saying it's all Bad Wolf doing a super sort out...

He's shown to be very young after 8 regenerates into him in the special "Night of the Doctor," so it's been many years (based on how long real-world Hurt aged, at least 30 years, but Time Lords don't age nearly as fast as humans, so it could be hundreds).

[manda2014]

So.... Are we changing the numbering of New Who Doctors now? Or is John Hurt 8.5? Everything is confusing.

But also, everything is wonderful. I thought the 50th was four zillion kinds of amazing.

[ConMan]

So.... Are we changing the numbering of New Who Doctors now? Or is John Hurt 8.5? Everything is confusing.

But also, everything is wonderful. I thought the 50th was four zillion kinds of amazing.

Everyone seems to be sticking to the existing numbering, with John Hurt being 8.5, or "The War Doctor", or otherwise "the one that doesn't count".

And yes, it was amazing. It had issues, but there was so much awesome to compensate.

[manda2014]

Also, a thought... is John Hurt's Doctor the thing that was in Eleven's room in The God Complex?

[Voltaire]

Also, a thought... is John Hurt's Doctor the thing that was in Eleven's room in The God Complex?

Presumably. But that was clearly written so that anything could be the answer, or retconned to be the answer.

[Teproc]

John Hurt's doctor doesn't call himself so, that's why he's not included in the Doctor numerals. Also, it's more practical than retroactively naming Eccleston Ten, Tennant Eleven and Smith Twelve.

[Ozle]

He doesn't at the start but he does by the end...

Has anyone see Galz since Saturday? I wonder if he has exploded out of joy...

[Polk5440]

He doesn't at the start but he does by the end...

Has anyone see Galz since Saturday? I wonder if he has exploded out of joy...

But he doesn't remember when he goes back to his own time stream. That was the key to making it all work out reasonably in the end. The Doctor will think that he destroyed the planet (so nothing about the future changes) until he becomes the 11th when in fact he realizes there is a chance the planet is saved.

[Galzria]

John Hurt's doctor doesn't call himself so, that's why he's not included in the Doctor numerals. Also, it's more practical than retroactively naming Eccleston Ten, Tennant Eleven and Smith Twelve.

John Hurt isn't a "Doctor" in the numerical sense because he wasn't a regeneration. Paul Mcgann died in the spaceship crash during Night of the Doctor. Had he regenerated right then, it (presumably) would've been into Ecclestone (Or rather, the Eighth would've regenerated into the Ninth). However, his body was suspended in death, prior to regenerating, so that he could become the Warrior. At the conclusion of Day of the Doctor, John Hurt proceeded to regenerate because the need of a Warrior was no more, and thus his Eighth incarnation was finally "allowed" to regenerate.

[Voltaire]

John Hurt's doctor doesn't call himself so, that's why he's not included in the Doctor numerals. Also, it's more practical than retroactively naming Eccleston Ten, Tennant Eleven and Smith Twelve.

John Hurt isn't a "Doctor" in the numerical sense because he wasn't a regeneration. Paul Mcgann died in the spaceship crash during Night of the Doctor. Had he regenerated right then, it (presumably) would've been into Ecclestone (Or rather, the Eighth would've regenerated into the Ninth). However, his body was suspended in death, prior to regenerating, so that he could become the Warrior. At the conclusion of Day of the Doctor, John Hurt proceeded to regenerate because the need of a Warrior was no more, and thus his Eighth incarnation was finally "allowed" to regenerate.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

I have seen this stated elsewhere and I have no idea why people think it! That is not implied at all by "Night of the Doctor". The Sisterhood simply offered control over the regeneration beyond what he normally has - it was still clearly a regeneration, and referred to as such. Moffat has made it extremely clear in interviews that Hurt is a full regeneration and while I guess your interpretation is not contradicted by the events on screen it seems 100% against the obvious meaning of things. I'm also 99% certain we'll get a clarification on this at Christmas.

[WanderingWinder]

John Hurt's doctor doesn't call himself so, that's why he's not included in the Doctor numerals. Also, it's more practical than retroactively naming Eccleston Ten, Tennant Eleven and Smith Twelve.

John Hurt isn't a "Doctor" in the numerical sense because he wasn't a regeneration. Paul Mcgann died in the spaceship crash during Night of the Doctor. Had he regenerated right then, it (presumably) would've been into Ecclestone (Or rather, the Eighth would've regenerated into the Ninth). However, his body was suspended in death, prior to regenerating, so that he could become the Warrior. At the conclusion of Day of the Doctor, John Hurt proceeded to regenerate because the need of a Warrior was no more, and thus his Eighth incarnation was finally "allowed" to regenerate.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

I have seen this stated elsewhere and I have no idea why people think it! That is not implied at all by "Night of the Doctor". The Sisterhood simply offered control over the regeneration beyond what he normally has - it was still clearly a regeneration, and referred to as such. Moffat has made it extremely clear in interviews that Hurt is a full regeneration and while I guess your interpretation is not contradicted by the events on screen it seems 100% against the obvious meaning of things. I'm also 99% certain we'll get a clarification on this at Christmas.

I assume that they'll have a big thing with Capaldi, possibly finding Gallifrey, and getting extra regens, probably at the end of *his* run, but I doubt they'll waste that before. I assume Christmas is going to have The Silence, the big "Dr. WHO" question, Transillor, and some battle where he dies but then of course gets out of it somehow.

[Teproc]

I assume that they'll have a big thing with Capaldi, possibly finding Gallifrey, and getting extra regens, probably at the end of *his* run, but I doubt they'll waste that before. I assume Christmas is going to have The Silence, the big "Dr. WHO" question, Transillor, and some battle where he dies but then of course gets out of it somehow.

So basically it's going to be horrible ? Great.

[Galzria]

You would think Moffat would be a little more creative with these titles...:

The Name of the Doctor
The Night of the Doctor
The Day of the Doctor
The Time of the Doctor

[Kirian]

You would think Moffat would be a little more creative with these titles...:

The Name of the Doctor
The Night of the Doctor
The Day of the Doctor
The Time of the Doctor

The Twilight of the Doctor
The Lazy Saturday Afternoon of the Doctor
The Long Dark Tea-Time of the Doctor
The Space of the Doctor
The Thing the Doctor Only Talks About to His Doctor
The Relative Incomprehensibility of the Doctor

[Galzria]

You would think Moffat would be a little more creative with these titles...:

The Name of the Doctor
The Night of the Doctor
The Day of the Doctor
The Time of the Doctor

The Twilight of the Doctor
The Lazy Saturday Afternoon of the Doctor
The Long Dark Tea-Time of the Doctor
The Space of the Doctor
The Thing the Doctor Only Talks About to His Doctor
The Relative Incomprehensibility of the Doctor

You forgot The Dimension of the Doctor.

[Ozle]

The Doctor of the Doctor?

[ConMan]

The Doctor of the Doctor?

The Doctor of the Doctor of the Give Me the News of the I've Got a Bad Case of Loving You.

[Jdaki]

Doctor doctor doctor beat...

[Davio]

I assume that they'll have a big thing with Capaldi, possibly finding Gallifrey, and getting extra regens, probably at the end of *his* run, but I doubt they'll waste that before. I assume Christmas is going to have The Silence, the big "Dr. WHO" question, Transillor, and some battle where he dies but then of course gets out of it somehow.

So basically it's going to be horrible ? Great.

According to the image it will feature both The Silence and Cybermen.

[Ozle]

Guarantee it will involve the Daleks as well...

[Voltaire]

Guarantee it will involve the Daleks as well...

And the Weeping Angels. You can see all four in the short clips of DW found in the BBC's holiday trailer.

[Galzria]

As a matter of fact, the current backdrop to my mobile's screen lock is...:



In which they can all clearly be seen. What's not clear, is who exactly the real enemy of the story will be...

[Davio]

No, I read some sort of synopsis where all these guys, including the Doctor, were to fight yet another enemy.

[Kuildeous]

No, I read some sort of synopsis where all these guys, including the Doctor, were to fight yet another enemy.

Last time these guys all teamed up, they threw the Doctor in a box.

Though, I have to admit that was an awesome culmination after decades of enemies being invented.

[Galzria]

No, I read some sort of synopsis where all these guys, including the Doctor, were to fight yet another enemy.

That's in fact what I was hinting at.

If you've been seeing the set release pictures as they've been released (as well as the picture I posted above), it's not at all clear that the "destruction" of classic "enemies" is at the hands of The Doctor. He may very well be the "General", with his "Army" behind him in the above picture...

[Ozle]

No, I read some sort of synopsis where all these guys, including the Doctor, were to fight yet another enemy.

That's in fact what I was hinting at.

If you've been seeing the set release pictures as they've been released (as well as the picture I posted above), it's not at all clear that the "destruction" of classic "enemies" is at the hands of The Doctor. He may very well be the "General", with his "Army" behind him in the above picture...

Nice of him to rip of the head of one of his army members then...

[Galzria]

No, I read some sort of synopsis where all these guys, including the Doctor, were to fight yet another enemy.

That's in fact what I was hinting at.

If you've been seeing the set release pictures as they've been released (as well as the picture I posted above), it's not at all clear that the "destruction" of classic "enemies" is at the hands of The Doctor. He may very well be the "General", with his "Army" behind him in the above picture...

Nice of him to rip of the head of one of his army members then...

Who said he did it?

[Ozle]

No, I read some sort of synopsis where all these guys, including the Doctor, were to fight yet another enemy.

That's in fact what I was hinting at.

If you've been seeing the set release pictures as they've been released (as well as the picture I posted above), it's not at all clear that the "destruction" of classic "enemies" is at the hands of The Doctor. He may very well be the "General", with his "Army" behind him in the above picture...

Nice of him to rip of the head of one of his army members then...

Who said he did it?

I did, just then.
Didn't you see it?

[Galzria]

No, I read some sort of synopsis where all these guys, including the Doctor, were to fight yet another enemy.

That's in fact what I was hinting at.

If you've been seeing the set release pictures as they've been released (as well as the picture I posted above), it's not at all clear that the "destruction" of classic "enemies" is at the hands of The Doctor. He may very well be the "General", with his "Army" behind him in the above picture...

Nice of him to rip of the head of one of his army members then...

Who said he did it?

I did, just then.
Didn't you see it?

No, I've very selective reading.

[Kirian]

If you're allowed to count both in-universe and real-life interactions, David Tennant is his own father-in-law.

...

Twice.

[Teproc]

So... once because he's married to the actress from "The Doctor's Daughter", but what's the second one ?

[Kirian]

So... once because he's married to the actress from "The Doctor's Daughter", but what's the second one ?

Georgia Moffett is Peter Davison's daughter.  Meanwhile, in universe, Peter Davison and David Tennant are the same character...

[WanderingWinder]

So... once because he's married to the actress from "The Doctor's Daughter", but what's the second one ?

Georgia Moffett is Peter Davison's daughter.  Meanwhile, in universe, Peter Davison and David Tennant are the same character...

Right. I don't see how that's twice though - you need both those parts to get you just the first own-father-in-law.

[Kirian]

The Doctor (Davison) is the father-in-law of The Doctor (Tennant) by being the real-life father of Georgia Moffett.

The Doctor (Tennant) is the father (in-universe) of his own wife (real-life).

(Allowing both kinds of interactions means that, in this context, Georgia Moffett/Jenny has two fathers, both of whom are the Doctor.)

[Teproc]

Yeah, that's pretty funny.

Also, here name is really close to Moffat...

I've said too much already.

[ashersky]

For you all:

http://www.sporcle.com/games/freddie3000/the_tardis_lands_in_springfield

[Teproc]

Failed on the rhino thing (I had pretty close guesses but far enough to no count) and the blonde. I knew who she was but couldn't find her name.

[qmech]

[Asper]

I didn't remember Donna
Don't feel bad that i didn't remember Clara Oswald (i honestly forgot she existed...) or that Rhino thing, but how could i forget Donna? I even mistook her for Harriet Jones (prime minister).

[Kirian]

19/19.  That was a horrible drawing of Sarah Jane.

[Asper]

19/19.  That was a horrible drawing of Sarah Jane.

Also it wouldn't accept "Raxacoricofallapatorian" as the answer to #16...

[EFHW]

I have a question maybe you Dr Who experts could answer for me.  It's about the end of season 6 and gives away the ending, so I'll put it in spoiler mode.

When River Song refuses to kill the Doctor, it ruptures time and is really dreadful, so they undo the damage by having her kill him after all.  But then it turns out it wasn't really him (except that he was in the robot, I guess).  So shouldn't time have still been topsy-turvy, since the Doctor didn't really die?

[Kirian]

I have a question maybe you Dr Who experts could answer for me.  It's about the end of season 6 and gives away the ending, so I'll put it in spoiler mode.

When River Song refuses to kill the Doctor, it ruptures time and is really dreadful, so they undo the damage by having her kill him after all.  But then it turns out it wasn't really him (except that he was in the robot, I guess).  So shouldn't time have still been topsy-turvy, since the Doctor didn't really die?

The Doctor didn't actually have to die for time to work out correctly, because he was in the Tesselecta when River shoots "him," as well as in the aborted timeline in which she didn't.  However, as so much attention was focused on that moment (by Kovarian and the Silence), the shooting had to occur at the fixed point.

In other words, we first saw the Tesselecta in "The Impossible Astronaut," even though we didn't learn about its nature until "Let's Kill Hitler."  And of course we're all so used to monster-of-the-week from Doctor Who that nobody even thought of the Tesselecta as being Chekov's gun.  Or, I suppose, Chekov's gun's target.

[Teproc]

In other words, it doesn't really make sense and Steven Moffat wants you to just forget about it. Which is the whole problem with Moffat : he cares A LOT about plot until it doesn't make sense anymore. At least Russel T Davies was consistent in that he never cared too much about plot consistency.

[Voltaire]

In other words, it doesn't really make sense and Steven Moffat wants you to just forget about it. Which is the whole problem with Moffat : he cares A LOT about plot until it doesn't make sense anymore. At least Russel T Davies was consistent in that he never cared too much about plot consistency.

The fixed point was that the Doctor (as the Tesselecta) dies. That's what has to happen. By not killing the TessaDoctor, River broke time. It makes complete sense and is a consistent plot (characters say and believe other things because they're learning the mystery and have incomplete information during the season).

That said, the show never makes this irreverent situation/explanation clear, leaving what I think is a great twist as something most people consider a plot hole. Which is a damn shame, but I don't blame them.

That's my big problem with Moffat - brilliant plotlines horribly presented.

[Axxle]

I didn't remember Donna
Don't feel bad that i didn't remember Clara Oswald (i honestly forgot she existed...) or that Rhino thing, but how could i forget Donna? I even mistook her for Harriet Jones (prime minister).

That's ok. Donna doesn't remember either.

[Teproc]

Oh I'm aware of the way it "makes sense". It's clever. Everything Moffat does is clever. Not interesting, but clever. Like, seriously, how is this a "great twist". It's just "hey, you know how we hyped up the Doctor's death for a bunch of episodes and you always knew we would find a reason to wiggle our way out of it because we obviously can't kill the Doctor ? Here's how we did it !". A great twist is something that surprises you, that shocks you, that makes you see everything differently, this was just... weirdly predictable. Not in the way that I could have predicted the details of it, but the place we end up in is exactly what I expected (basically status quo).

Which is fine, really. But the fact that Moffat is so enamored with his own cleverness makes the show feel unbelievably smug.

Well I'm exaggerating a bit, but I've obviously grown quite tired of the Moffat era. It's more consistent (and much better looking) than the Davies era, but it kinda lost its heart along the way. Even season 5 which is the best of his tenure lacks a great episode of the calibre of Midnight, Blink or Dalek. Hopefully a new doctor will help shake things up a bit, but really I'm hoping for a change of showrunner more than anything.

[EFHW]

I have a question maybe you Dr Who experts could answer for me.  It's about the end of season 6 and gives away the ending, so I'll put it in spoiler mode.

When River Song refuses to kill the Doctor, it ruptures time and is really dreadful, so they undo the damage by having her kill him after all.  But then it turns out it wasn't really him (except that he was in the robot, I guess).  So shouldn't time have still been topsy-turvy, since the Doctor didn't really die?

The Doctor didn't actually have to die for time to work out correctly, because he was in the Tesselecta when River shoots "him," as well as in the aborted timeline in which she didn't.  However, as so much attention was focused on that moment (by Kovarian and the Silence), the shooting had to occur at the fixed point.

In other words, we first saw the Tesselecta in "The Impossible Astronaut," even though we didn't learn about its nature until "Let's Kill Hitler."  And of course we're all so used to monster-of-the-week from Doctor Who that nobody even thought of the Tesselecta as being Chekov's gun.  Or, I suppose, Chekov's gun's target.

This makes sense since he gets in the Tesselecta thingy before he goes to the lake, so he was in it both times.  I suppose the belief by most of the universe that the Doctor was dead could constitute grounds for a fixed point.  He just tells everyone he has to die because he ALWAYS LIES!  But then in season 7, no one seems that surprised he is actually alive, so there's another inconsistency.  He just says his friends think he is dead at the end of that forest episode.

[EFHW]

So who do you guys like better, David Tennant or Matt Smith?

[Kuildeous]

I may have to go with Tenant. They're both whimsical in very similar ways, but they have a little bit that differentiates them. And that differentiation pushes me toward Tenant. He actually acts like a man who is centuries old (or at least what I imagine such a man would act like). He seems to be more calculating. But they're both good.

I'm actually watching some older Who on Netflix. I got bored of the second Doctor, but that was really the way the show was laid out and not because of the character. I'm sure I'd appreciate the second Doctor more if the serial I was watching wasn't such a bore. The third doctor is interesting and gives me hope for the twelfth doctor since both of them are older gentlemen.

I'm looking forward to the Tom Baker episodes since I believe he's a Doctor favored by many prior to the 2005- episodes.

[Voltaire]

Oh I'm aware of the way it "makes sense". It's clever. Everything Moffat does is clever. Not interesting, but clever. Like, seriously, how is this a "great twist". It's just "hey, you know how we hyped up the Doctor's death for a bunch of episodes and you always knew we would find a reason to wiggle our way out of it because we obviously can't kill the Doctor ? Here's how we did it !". A great twist is something that surprises you, that shocks you, that makes you see everything differently, this was just... weirdly predictable. Not in the way that I could have predicted the details of it, but the place we end up in is exactly what I expected (basically status quo).

Which is fine, really. But the fact that Moffat is so enamored with his own cleverness makes the show feel unbelievably smug.

Well I'm exaggerating a bit, but I've obviously grown quite tired of the Moffat era. It's more consistent (and much better looking) than the Davies era, but it kinda lost its heart along the way. Even season 5 which is the best of his tenure lacks a great episode of the calibre of Midnight, Blink or Dalek. Hopefully a new doctor will help shake things up a bit, but really I'm hoping for a change of showrunner more than anything.

And I can't say I disagree with anything you've said here.

[Asper]

Oh I'm aware of the way it "makes sense". It's clever. Everything Moffat does is clever. Not interesting, but clever. Like, seriously, how is this a "great twist". It's just "hey, you know how we hyped up the Doctor's death for a bunch of episodes and you always knew we would find a reason to wiggle our way out of it because we obviously can't kill the Doctor ? Here's how we did it !". A great twist is something that surprises you, that shocks you, that makes you see everything differently, this was just... weirdly predictable. Not in the way that I could have predicted the details of it, but the place we end up in is exactly what I expected (basically status quo).

Which is fine, really. But the fact that Moffat is so enamored with his own cleverness makes the show feel unbelievably smug.

Well I'm exaggerating a bit, but I've obviously grown quite tired of the Moffat era. It's more consistent (and much better looking) than the Davies era, but it kinda lost its heart along the way. Even season 5 which is the best of his tenure lacks a great episode of the calibre of Midnight, Blink or Dalek. Hopefully a new doctor will help shake things up a bit, but really I'm hoping for a change of showrunner more than anything.

Dito.

It was obvious the Doctor would not die, so the only thing in question was who (pun intended) would get shot in his place: The Flesh or that Robot. I would have expected them to do something clever about it, maybe show how it couldn't be any of those and have another solution suddenly. That they didn't at all, even tried to make it look like something clever, gave me what i'll call my worst Dr Who impression up to now. Let's hope it stays that...

[Axxle]

[2.71828.....]

So, I was bored and looking for stuff to do, and realized that I hadn't seen the Dr. Who Christmas specials (just the Matt Smith ones) that are free on Amazon Prime, so I thought to myself, "myself, let's watch them."  Which I did. 

And then I did some looking and learned that the new season starts up this month.  Unfortunately, I have yet to watch the 50th Anniversary special "The Day of the Doctor" and the Christmas special "The Time of the Doctor" so I feel as though I should catch up there a bit before diving into the next season.

So really I just wanted to necro this thread a bit so Voltaire could post how excited he is for the upcoming season and also ask, if I were to go back and watch some old Doctor, which season(s) or episodes are the best.  I am just afraid that I will be let down a bit because I hear that some of the older Doctor seasons aren't quite on par with the Matt Smith seasons.

[Kuildeous]

I'm not much into the old Doctors yet. I saw bits of the first and second. I wasn't too thrilled with the second, but I think it may have been the episodes themselves and not the Doctor. He seemed pleasant enough.

I did enjoy the third Doctor, though I really disliked his relationship with Jo. As I understand it, early companions mostly served to show how brilliant the Doctor was and allowed him the opportunity to explain what's going on in terms the audience can understand (by making the companion not understand a single thing). But the way that Jo was portrayed just really got on my nerves. They made her too useless, I feel—not quite as bad as Willy from Indiana Jones at least.

I barely started the fourth Doctor, so I can't pass judgment just yet. I know that Tom Baker is a favorite among many geeks. From what I saw, he was capable of getting irksome at his companions' hijinks. So another notch for clueless companion. I haven't gotten to the Sarah Jane Smith episodes yet, so I trust that will change.

I watched one series of the fifth Doctor (the one where a companion dies). He seemed okay but nothing to excite me. I haven't seen six through eight yet.

The ninth Doctor is the first in the resurgence of Who. No real complaints about him. He's not as whimsical as the ten and eleventh. He's a little bit jaded and conceited, which is what you'd expect from someone centuries old.

I think the tenth is my favorite. He has a pretty good balance of whimsy and emotional baggage.

My nonexpert opinion.

[Voltaire]

So really I just wanted to necro this thread a bit so Voltaire could post how excited he is for the upcoming season and also ask, if I were to go back and watch some old Doctor, which season(s) or episodes are the best.  I am just afraid that I will be let down a bit because I hear that some of the older Doctor seasons aren't quite on par with the Matt Smith seasons.

1. Excited, but not as much as you think - partly because I can't use the internet to get excited, because the scripts for episodes 1-6 leaked, and unfinished (missing some CGI) versions of the first 5 episodes leaked, so the internet is a saddening den of spoilers right now (most of which I have avoided).

2. So what has that driven me to? I'm leafing through EW's Doctor Who cover story from this week (WHAT IS WRONG WITH ME)

3. So yes, the "classic" (Doctors 1-8) Doctors are very, very different, because the show is different. I grew up listening to old-time radio (and people at the meetup wondered why they thought I was older), so classic Doctor Who fits me like a glove - slow, methodical, unnecessarily long, and occasionally featuring entire episodes that are pointless (there is a First Doctor episode where they start in jail, break out of jail, and are recaptured. Nothing of consequence happens during this time). If you've only seen 11 (Matt Smith), watch some 9 or 10. If you're trying to get in to classic Doctor Who, start with the very first episode ("An Unearthly Child"). Part 1 is all about the first companions discovering the Doctor and his granddaughter. Parts 2-4 are a pretty bad historical story with cavemen. If you sit through the entire thing, and enjoy it, you'll like any and all classic Doctor Who. Otherwise, you're best finding some random well-regarded episodes and just watching those ("Genesis of the Daleks", "Caves of Andronazi (sp)", etc.).

[jsh357]

So, I was bored and looking for stuff to do, and realized that I hadn't seen the Dr. Who Christmas specials (just the Matt Smith ones) that are free on Amazon Prime, so I thought to myself, "myself, let's watch them."  Which I did. 

And then I did some looking and learned that the new season starts up this month.  Unfortunately, I have yet to watch the 50th Anniversary special "The Day of the Doctor" and the Christmas special "The Time of the Doctor" so I feel as though I should catch up there a bit before diving into the next season.

So really I just wanted to necro this thread a bit so Voltaire could post how excited he is for the upcoming season and also ask, if I were to go back and watch some old Doctor, which season(s) or episodes are the best.  I am just afraid that I will be let down a bit because I hear that some of the older Doctor seasons aren't quite on par with the Matt Smith seasons.

If you are mostly interested in the reboot, I'd say just watch it from the start through release order.  Nothing in the reboot is completely unwatchable. (which can't be said for the classic series)  There are some bad episodes, but they're short enough that they are tolerable.  In the classic series, if you hit a bad episode you either have to sit through hours of it or skip on to the next one.

[EFHW]

So, I was bored and looking for stuff to do, and realized that I hadn't seen the Dr. Who Christmas specials (just the Matt Smith ones) that are free on Amazon Prime, so I thought to myself, "myself, let's watch them."  Which I did. 

And then I did some looking and learned that the new season starts up this month.  Unfortunately, I have yet to watch the 50th Anniversary special "The Day of the Doctor" and the Christmas special "The Time of the Doctor" so I feel as though I should catch up there a bit before diving into the next season.

So really I just wanted to necro this thread a bit so Voltaire could post how excited he is for the upcoming season and also ask, if I were to go back and watch some old Doctor, which season(s) or episodes are the best.  I am just afraid that I will be let down a bit because I hear that some of the older Doctor seasons aren't quite on par with the Matt Smith seasons.

If you are mostly interested in the reboot, I'd say just watch it from the start through release order.  Nothing in the reboot is completely unwatchable. (which can't be said for the classic series)  There are some bad episodes, but they're short enough that they are tolerable.  In the classic series, if you hit a bad episode you either have to sit through hours of it or skip on to the next one.

The first episode with No 10 is really funny, but ends serious - Series 2 episode 1.  "Runaway Bride" - the first episode with Donna - is also good. And the first one with Martha, "Smith and Jones".  They put extra effort into introductory episodes in general, it seems.

[EFHW]

My pet peeve with Dr. Who is how they treat large numbers.  A million or 10,000 years (the amount of time humans have been around so far) is quite long enough -- when they say "this is humans 5 billion years from now" that's too absurd.  The only episode where it makes sense is when the universe is dying, but New Earth didn't need to be billions of years later.  And when did the Earth explode - that episode with Cassandra?  Wasn't she the last human, before 5 billion years in the future?

[Kirian]

And when did the Earth explode - that episode with Cassandra?  Wasn't she the last human, before 5 billion years in the future?

She claims to be the last unmodified human.

One should also take her claims with an incredibly large grain of salt.  Well, and moisturizer.

[Voltaire]

My pet peeve with Dr. Who is how they treat large numbers.  A million or 10,000 years (the amount of time humans have been around so far) is quite long enough -- when they say "this is humans 5 billion years from now" that's too absurd.  The only episode where it makes sense is when the universe is dying, but New Earth didn't need to be billions of years later.  And when did the Earth explode - that episode with Cassandra?  Wasn't she the last human, before 5 billion years in the future?

The Doctor specifically says in Utopia that humans have returned to their "original" form at that point, so it's not actually a contradiction. It's just even stupider than you thought!

[Axxle]

[Archetype]

Reminds me of Gravity Falls.

[Axxle]

Reminds me of Gravity Falls.

Gravity Falls No More.


(Comment shamelessly stolen from somewhere... reddit maybe?)

[ashersky]

So this happened.  I missed it.

http://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2014/aug/12/tardis-lands-sydney-harbour-doctor-who-world-tour

[Voltaire]

I don't think I have the energy to completely describe how much I hated the premiere last night.

Let's get the most significant part out of the way - Capaldi did well, and I think I'll like his performance as the Doctor. The alley/bum scene and the bit at the restaurant where he first showed up were the only good parts of the episode.

The plot was pointless. Everything was underdeveloped. And the characterization/tone/meta-ness made me want to scream.

I had a moment where I thought Moffat was going to fix everything when I realized that our three main characters for this episode were going to be female (with the Doctor out of commission). I was optimistic, like an idiot, because what did Moffat do? Make their scene all about whether or not Clara likes the Doctor when A THIRD OF THE PEOPLE IN THE ROOM ARE ATTRACTED TO NON-HUMANS and TWO THIRDS OF THE PEOPLE IN THE ROOM ARE ATTRACTED TO FEMALES. It's like he was trying to fail the Bechtel test with a score lower than zero.

And the worst part? After being so preachy about how the Doctor isn't supposed to be sexy, blah blah blah (never mind that the SHOW is the reason this became the view because they MADE THE DOCTOR SEXY AND KISS PEOPLE AND WROTE SCRIPTS AND DEVELOPED ENTIRE PLOT ARCS WHERE THIS WAS THE POINT), even after all of that! They end the episode with Mrs. Generic Sexy Villainess talking about how she's the Doctor's boyfriend.

I don't have a big enough face or palms to properly convey my reaction.

If sitting through a preachy episode is what it was going to take to get back to a non-lovey companion/Doctor relationship, it would have been worth it. But I have no faith they're actually going to stick to that, because they pretty much told us they weren't going to stick to it at the end of the episode.

Also why all the pratfalls/stupid physical humor?

Also why the HORRIBLE moment of the Doctor LOOKING AT THE FREAKING CAMERA? Oh I dunno, MAYBE THIS DOCTOR WILL KILL A GUY. Wooooooo oh no he's so dark Moffat you're a genius.

I think this has been building up inside me for a long time. Last season was just so bad, and I honestly forgot that the Doctor Who premiere was this weekend until Thursday. I'm not kidding.

The show may lose me this season. I hate the idea that I'm going to be that dramatic guy on the internet, because I hate those dramatic people on the internet, but I will definitely move from hard-core superfan to casual viewer if this season is as terrible as I think it's going to be.

[Voltaire]

Honestly I'm more sad than anything. I just want to have fun watching the show, that's all I want! It's supposed to be a bit campy and a bit bad. It just can't be moronic and sexist and pointless.

[Kuildeous]

I didn't have as visceral a reaction as you did, but I did find the premiere a bit lacking. The buildup seemed to move along too slowly.

The restaurant scene captured some of the whimsy of Doctor Who, but even that seemed to move like molasses in some areas. I did enjoy the Three's-Company-level of misunderstanding between the Doctor and Clara, though.

The tension at the end felt artificial to me. I just didn't really care who was going to do what.

The teaser didn't explain a whole lot, but I suppose that's the purpose of teasers. This is obviously something that will be revealed as the episodes go on. It didn't do much to whet my appetite.

Hoping for more later. A couple of my friends and my wife are going to see it in a cinema tonight, but I don't see a need to buy a ticket to see this premiere again.

[jsh357]

This episode really didn't need to be feature-length.  There was a lot of superfluous dialogue in there.  It might have made a really strong 45 minute episode, though.  On the bright side, Capaldi is awesome as expected.

[Polk5440]

I really enjoyed it. I liked Capaldi, the slower pace, the new (fan-inspired) opening, and the new cinematography/direction (I think that's new...). It reminded me of how Tennant was introduced, except better. I am hoping the slower pace continues for the whole season. There needs to be more slower moments in order to chew on what's really happening.

I have never really liked Clara, so no change there. Unlike Voltaire, I thought her reactions and role in the story made perfect sense given her established character, even if I don't particularly care for her.

I am so over Vastra, Jenny, and Strax, though. They are just Whovian Sherlock Holmes fan-fiction stand-ins. I wouldn't be surprised if they lived on Baker Street, and I wouldn't be disappointed to never see them again. My biggest hope for the new Who was there would be a cleaner break from the past, much like the Eleventh Hour did. You have to clean out the old to make room for the new. There was some, but I am a little worried that without a clearer break the series will continue to devolve into the convoluted nonsense that permeated the end of the RTD era. 

[EFHW]

I agree it would have been better as a 45 minute episode.  I liked Capaldi.  Character-wise, I didn't understand his leaving Clara behind with the robot aliens.  I suppose that's the sliver of ice in his heart, but it never gets explained.  He comes back for her, but usually we find out there was some method in his madness.  I also wanted to see some carry-over from the previous doctors in his mannerisms or expressions.  Like Tennant had that cheesy grin which was like Eccleston's, and Matt Smith walked funny like Eccleston.  I thought Capaldi could have done the shy, sad looking away that Smith did sometimes when expression of feelings was called for, especially while Clara was scrutinizing him after the phone call.  There should have been something that revealed his Doctor-ness to her, that the same person was still in there.  That was a real missed opportunity. The "what is a bedroom for" scene was really funny - the Doctor never did answer Rory's question about where he slept.  It was an improvement that they stopped idealizing Clara so much - Vastra got her mad, Capaldi thought she was egotistical, and they stopped playing the dreamy music every time she showed up.

[EFHW]

Sometimes I enjoy Dr. Who episodes better the second time I see them.  Then the pacing doesn't matter as much b/c I know what will happen, and I catch more of the dialogue.  They talk so fast!

[Polk5440]

They talk so fast!

That's partly why I am hoping for a slower pace. Sometimes I am still figuring out what just happened and we're on to the next thing....

Maybe commercials fill that role more and more these days. Has anyone else noticed that (at least BBC America) reruns of old Doctor Who episodes are shorter? I saw a rerun of The Eleventh Hour a couple months ago and the 50th Anniversary Special before the season 8 premiere and they both had at least one line/short scene stripped to make way for even more ads.

[Kirian]

...and I catch more of the dialogue.  They talk so fast!

Did you not watch Buffy, or Firefly, or Gilmore Girls?  To me at least, the speedy dialogue is what makes these shows actually work.

[Kuildeous]

Also, closed captioning helps immensely for those moments when your brain is trying to catch up to what your ears just heard. Depending on the timing of the captions, you can even get the joke before it's said.

I rely on captioning on nearly everything. We had a "team-building" exercise where we watched Hoosiers. I had to request captioning because the sound system was such that I wasn't able to adequately isolate the dialogue from the background noise.

So, captioned Who is a default for me.

[Polk5440]

Did you not watch Buffy, or Firefly, or Gilmore Girls?  To me at least, the speedy dialogue is what makes these shows actually work.

Nope.

[EFHW]

They talk so fast!

That's partly why I am hoping for a slower pace. Sometimes I am still figuring out what just happened and we're on to the next thing....

Maybe commercials fill that role more and more these days. Has anyone else noticed that (at least BBC America) reruns of old Doctor Who episodes are shorter? I saw a rerun of The Eleventh Hour a couple months ago and the 50th Anniversary Special before the season 8 premiere and they both had at least one line/short scene stripped to make way for even more ads.

It's true.  I watched The Snowmen online through Comcast, and there were 2 or 3 scenes I hadn't seen before. 

[Davio]

I really enjoyed it. I liked Capaldi, the slower pace, the new (fan-inspired) opening, and the new cinematography/direction (I think that's new...). It reminded me of how Tennant was introduced, except better. I am hoping the slower pace continues for the whole season. There needs to be more slower moments in order to chew on what's really happening.

I have never really liked Clara, so no change there. Unlike Voltaire, I thought her reactions and role in the story made perfect sense given her established character, even if I don't particularly care for her.

I am so over Vastra, Jenny, and Strax, though. They are just Whovian Sherlock Holmes fan-fiction stand-ins. I wouldn't be surprised if they lived on Baker Street, and I wouldn't be disappointed to never see them again. My biggest hope for the new Who was there would be a cleaner break from the past, much like the Eleventh Hour did. You have to clean out the old to make room for the new. There was some, but I am a little worried that without a clearer break the series will continue to devolve into the convoluted nonsense that permeated the end of the RTD era.

The good parts first: I liked Capaldi. Dr Who's shoes are not easy to fill and I think he did rather well. Every actor really has to try to be his own doctor and not copy another one, that seems like the hardest part. Tennant was dark, Smith was giddy and Capaldi is... well, too soon to tell. At least he didn't try to be like Tennant or Smith.

The meh parts: I don't mind Vastra and co that much, but I don't care a lot for them either. As far as side characters go, I liked River Song best. I think it's good that there are some extra recognizable characters which appear from time to time. I recall the first Tennant season with Jack Harkness, the face of Boe, and some others. That was great! Having these Holmesonnites appear every show doesn't do it for me.

The bad parts: I didn't care for the story much. They did too little with the dinosaur and the robots were strange and not well explained. I liked the part where she had to trust the doctor to come back for her. I understand that they had to make Clara trust this doctor again, but the way they did it was just pretty awkward. She had seen the doctor die and she was fine with that, but now that he has a new face, it's sooo scary all of a sudden?

[Voltaire]

Actually...potential plot-related reason why Clara was weirded out. Speculation in spoilers.

I'm a fan of the theory that the "real" Clara is dead. She died when she jumped into the Doctor's timestream in Name of the Doctor. It explains how the Doctor got her "out", why she's suddenly teaching in Coal Hill, and a whole host of other things that are just plain stupid without this explanation. If this Clara is another echo, she wouldn't know the Doctor regenerates - would she? Did any of the previous echo-Claras know about his different faces, or did they just recognize their "prime" Doctor?

[Polk5440]

Actually...potential plot-related reason why Clara was weirded out. Speculation in spoilers.

I'm a fan of the theory that the "real" Clara is dead. She died when she jumped into the Doctor's timestream in Name of the Doctor. It explains how the Doctor got her "out", why she's suddenly teaching in Coal Hill, and a whole host of other things that are just plain stupid without this explanation. If this Clara is another echo, she wouldn't know the Doctor regenerates - would she? Did any of the previous echo-Claras know about his different faces, or did they just recognize their "prime" Doctor?

I don't think that kind of plot device is necessary to explain this episode, though it would be a slick way to dump her as a companion half way through the season. I think her reaction was completely reasonable. For example, we all know people die. Knowing that and experiencing a loved one die are two different things. You respond to that personal experience. Even if Clara "remembers" in some way all her "other selves" (not a given) and "knows" the doctor changes, she hasn't experienced HER doctor change. That experience should produce an emotional response.

Also, the Doctor ISN'T the same. He has new likes and dislikes, new personality, and loss of memory for a while, a new body. I liked the sub-theme of the episode exploring this through the broom analogy and the clockwork villains.

[Kirian]

Actually...potential plot-related reason why Clara was weirded out. Speculation in spoilers.

I'm a fan of the theory that the "real" Clara is dead. She died when she jumped into the Doctor's timestream in Name of the Doctor. It explains how the Doctor got her "out", why she's suddenly teaching in Coal Hill, and a whole host of other things that are just plain stupid without this explanation. If this Clara is another echo, she wouldn't know the Doctor regenerates - would she? Did any of the previous echo-Claras know about his different faces, or did they just recognize their "prime" Doctor?

Except that we know the Clara seen at Coal Hill School (Day of the Doctor, Time of the Doctor) is the same Clara who is in Deep Breath.  So this Clara definitely knows about regeneration and the like.  I think Polk has the right of it though; she's never experienced one of the Doctor's regenerations.  Remember that the last time we saw a companion deal with regeneration was in Christmas Invasion.  It's been that long.  And Rose went through a lot of panic in that episode.

Whether or not this Clara is the same as the Clara who stepped into the Doctor's time-stream on Trenzalore... is a bit less certain.

So I don't know about so many of y'all... but I quite enjoyed the episode.  Sure, it's not as great as Day of the Doctor was, it didn't need 75 minutes (though I think 45 would have been too short), and it most definitely didn't need any of the stuff with the dinosaur--not sure what the hell was up with that.  But the call from the 11th Doctor at the end that was foreshadowed was pretty darn cool.  And the rest of it was certainly as good as the average of Series 7.

[Polk5440]

As far as side characters go, I liked River Song best.

Agreed! Her goodbye in the season finale was definitely a tear-jerker for me.

it most definitely didn't need any of the stuff with the dinosaur--not sure what the hell was up with that.

I am pretty much accepting that a lot of modern tv shows purposely write in promo-fodder. I would rather they not do that, but that's what seems to be happening. At least showing off irrelevant eye candy is better than revealing practically the entire plot in promos -- which is another annoying trend of late in tv and movie promos. It's like in the age of spoilers, PR people use them to try to attract people. It's very annoying.

[Voltaire]

Hey! The second episode was actually really good. They had lots of opportunities to be terrible like they usually are but they avoided them - no "the Dalek looking into the Doctor's memory and saying "I see the secret you have kept from everyone!" or anything like that, etc. Danny's backstory foreshadowing was a bit ham-handed, but nothing worse than normal (unlike last week). Of course, the Doctor now conveniently has a no-soldier rule...

The Heaven arc/plotline was kept to a delightful minimum, appropriate for the season arc showing up each week. Loved grumpy alien Doctor. And the production values seemed really good this week!

I know it still sounds like I'm being critical, but things are going in the right direction. With how abominable last season was (50th notwithstanding) and the premiere, I got really nervous.

[Kirian]

And the production values seemed really good this week!

Maybe I'm nuts, but those were the worst production values I've seen since watching some of the Tom Baker era stuff.  The physical effects were pretty cheesy.

That said, Capaldi is definitely going to work well as the Doctor.  Script was all right, but the "twist" at the end was pretty damned obvious to anyone who's watched multiple episodes; the Doctor's rage is legendary.

[Voltaire]

Well, I think I'm going to stop posting in this thread after this, because I thought this week was mostly rubbish again and I don't want to be "that guy" crapping on something everyone else loves.

I guess my parting thoughts on the season so far, then, would be this:

0. Along with previously existing and long-building issues (see a few posts above)...
1. They haven't established Capaldi as the Doctor, through no fault of Capaldi's. He's different, cool. Every regeneration is, that's great. Show us some commonality. I don't think they have, or if they have, it hasn't been enough.
2. This has made the rest of the show rely on Clara, a character written so horribly (again, I don't fault the acting) I know nothing about her nor do I care about her. And I know I'm supposed to know something about her, but her backstory is so scattered, confused, and poorly connected I honestly just shocked myself when I remembered she's also the leaf girl. It's like she's different people (WHICH SHE CLEARLY CAN BE SO WHY DIDN'T THEY JUST DO THAT?  )

I think, at this point, I'll need a showrunner change to like it again. That makes me nervous - I dislike most fans who call for Moffat's head. It's like calling for the manager to be fired in most sports - widely considered the least intelligent form of sports commentary. You don't like something? Fire the guy in charge instead of understanding the problem. However, in this specific instance, I think the way to fix what I personally perceive as the "problem" is truly to have a different showrunner.

[Kuildeous]

Yeah, the third episode of this season was so banal. There was nothing really thrilling about this, and I even found the banter and "swordfighting" at the beginning too campy. That's right, I thought this was too campy even by Doctor Who standards.

Probably the most interesting thing about the episode is that the Doctor posits that Robin Hood is a robot, but they never actually justify or disprove his claim.

The scenes from next week did look a bit weirder and spookier, which are traits in common with episodes I like a lot (the Silence, the library of the dead), so maybe things will pick up.

I like Capaldi's portrayal, but he doesn't seem to be given a whole lot lately.

[Davio]

Clara is my least favorite companion of the new series. That's right, even below Donna.

At least Donna's annoyance was part of what made her stand out, Clara is just always annoying without trying.
I just don't feel any connection with her.

Capaldi is trying as the Doctor, but the episodes are so crappy it just isn't fair to him. My favorite episodes always had something melancholic, but with a bright spot (often the Doctor). Those episodes would dive very low before soaring really high, if you catch my drift. An example episode would be the one where David Tennant is held captive by the Master and his companion (Freema?) goes around the world to convince people he exists.

I also liked the end of season 7 hinting at the death of the Doctor at Trenzalore, but the start of season 8 is just horrible. The "heaven" arch also doesn't grab me as say "bad wolf bay" or the Doctor's death at the hands of the astronaut.

[EFHW]

I totally agree - I was so disappointed by the 3rd episode.  It had no depth - since when does the Doctor stubbornly stick to a crazy idea when he's been shown wrong?  His strength is that he turns on a dime and has creative explanations and solutions, not just acting nuts and stupidly macho.  And since when does Clara have heroes?  Just two episodes ago she said Marcus Aurelius was her only pin-up, and now she has a lifelong infatuation with Robin Hood?  And what about her new love interest?  (On a side note, she was way too confident with him.  No one is that secure.)  The ending was ridiculous - shoot a golden arrow into the side of a spaceship, and it gains enough power to leave orbit?

So yeah, the writing is looking really bad.  A scene here and there is well-done, but I'm used to such a higher standard from Dr. Who. 

[EFHW]

I really liked Donna, though.  And I liked 7th season Clara - maybe b/c the Doctor liked her so much.

[Voltaire]

Probably the most interesting thing about the episode is that the Doctor posits that Robin Hood is a robot, but they never actually justify or disprove his claim.

So if everyone is feeling this way, I don't feel weird! And actually this is interesting. The BBC cut a scene from this episode at the last minute, if you're not aware. In the middle of the fight, Robin Hood decapitates the Sheriff (presumably nixed because of the woman who was beheaded in London last week), whose head keeps talking, showing he's a robot (he was rebuilt by the other robots). He puts his head back on, the fight continues as shown. As it is, the only way you know the Sheriff is a robot (and the robot in the title, no less!) is his one remaining line in the middle of the fight about how he's the first half-man, half-machine something or other. Which is a terrible way to do a reveal - two characters engaged in swordplay, one of them goes "Oh btw I'm a robot k thnx" while the fight keeps going.

And as a result, I thought when Robin Hood was cut we were going to be treated to a scene later where we'd either see blood or wires, and was confused when we didn't. But knowing they intended to have just revealed the Sheriff as a robot, and if you combine that with the Doctor's "Wait, why WOULD they do that? It's a terrible idea" it solidly lands on Robin Hood = human, instead of the confusing middle they had.

[jsh357]

I must be the only one here who thinks this has been the best since Season 5 so far.  (In my opinion, Season 7 was the worst the reboot has been--Angels Take Manhatten was one of the dumbest episodes yet, and the rest was spotty to average besides the finale & Time/Day of the Doctor)  Absolutely love Capaldi; he's much funnier than I anticipated, yet doesn't come off as a clown like Smith or Tennant.  I think episode 3 was the best one of the season so far, even though it was pretty goofy, and episode 2 succeeded mostly through its concept.  While it is a bit late, Clara is finally starting to feel like an actual character to me instead of just a gimmick too.  Of course, I also hated River Song and the whole Trenzalore story, so I'm not really in line with the feelings of most on this forum.

[Voltaire]

Of course, I also hated River Song and the whole Trenzalore story, so I'm not really in line with the feelings of most on this forum.

Actually, I'm indifferent/negative on Trenzalore as a whole, and grew really tired of River by the end, so you're not alone.

[Polk5440]

I must be the only one here who thinks this has been the best since Season 5 so far.

You are not alone. This season has gone over very well so far with my friends and I. I like where the "hook" for the season can go. Playing off of the doctor's usual know-it-all attitude and potentially turning that attitude into a weakness could be very interesting. The best parts of the Robin Hood episode were seeing him try to grasp onto anything "normal" -- well, normal for him! 29th century robot ship! Much more plausible to him than Robin Hood being human! And the line from Robin Hood at the end, "I am just as real as you are" is nice and meta and fits into the "promised land"/myth motiff, as well. I think it could be leading up to a very interesting finale.

I long ago accepted what Doctor Who is and is not. It is a family show with plot holes the size of black holes. I mean, it's been long established that anything can happen and anything can change and what is fixed and what isn't is only known to the Doctor because he a Time Lord and even those points can change. Basically baked in an excuse for anyone to do anything ever.

Doctor Who is not a movie quality sci-fi show. Not every episode can be as good as the 50th anniversary special or the End of Time -- made for TV movies. The show has already made a tradeoff to more quality shows and fewer filler episodes, and I don't think it can go further unless it turns into Sherlock -- 3 episodes every two years.....

[Davio]

I zapped past House the other day and thought: That Hugh Laurie would make one hell of a Doctor.

[Dsell]

I'm surprised nobody's talking about the last episode. I just saw it last night, and I thought it was easily the highlight of the season. It very well might become a highlight of Capaldi's run as the Doctor.

[jsh357]

Yes, it was my personal favorite episode since Vincent & The Doctor.  I don't have too much to say about it, though.  Was just very intrigued and impressed.  I wonder if the monster on the bed was real or not?  Could make for an interesting villain for the rest of the season, but I'd be just as satisfied if there was nothing here.

[Dsell]

Yes, it was my personal favorite episode since Vincent & The Doctor.  I don't have too much to say about it, though.  Was just very intrigued and impressed.  I wonder if the monster on the bed was real or not?  Could make for an interesting villain for the rest of the season, but I'd be just as satisfied if there was nothing here.

Yeah, the episode is definitely interesting in light of whatever was on the bed under the sheet.

Also the fact that Clara piloted the tardis to time locked Gallifrey?? But there was that throwaway comment from the Doctor about the security protocols being down.

[Polk5440]

Yes, it was my personal favorite episode since Vincent & The Doctor.  I don't have too much to say about it, though.  Was just very intrigued and impressed.  I wonder if the monster on the bed was real or not?  Could make for an interesting villain for the rest of the season, but I'd be just as satisfied if there was nothing here.

That opening monologue was AMAZING! And chalkboards and books in the TARDIS? SIGN ME UP!! He should call himself Doctor Professor. The Question/Proposition "catchphrase" is pretty cool.

I think ambiguity is theme this season. clockwork robots/doctor -- same or different after all the parts replaced? Dalek -- good or evil? Robin Hood -- man or machine? Monster under the bed -- real or imagined? Throw in the what is the promised land? and What if the doctor doesn't know everything? as other minor themes and boy we have some really great arcs this season.


 

[ConMan]

If Capaldi's Doctor is the kind to have a crazy theory and go all Beautiful Mind on a chalkboard to figure it out, then I am totally down with that.

[Teproc]

I never comment here because I've been so-so on Doctor Who since season 5, but "Listen" is the best Moffat episode since he's become showrunner, perhaps his best episode period.

It's also the episode that finally makes 12 distinctive in non-superficial ways.

[Davio]

I was highly disappointed because I liked the introduction, but didn't care for soldier Dan.

This season has been absolutely horrible so far.
Not one of the four episodes managed to grab me by the throat like the old ones could.

The standard of the new season just pales in comparison to episodes like "Don't Blink", "Turn Left", "Pandorica Opens" and the one in the Library with the things in the shadows where River dies.

[Teproc]

While I think the last episode does compare to those, you realize these episodes all have something in common right ?

They're all from the first four seasons.

[Davio]

Well, it's not that I don't like any episode from the later series.
I loved the "Rings of Akhaten" and the Trenzalore arc from the last one.

It's just that it seems they wanted to make a clean break from all previous seasons, but I don't like the direction they're moving in.

[Polk5440]

While I think the last episode does compare to those, you realize these episodes all have something in common right ?

They're all from the first four seasons.

Pandorica opens is from season 5. 5 seasons is a lot of TV. Six years, in fact.

[Teproc]

While I think the last episode does compare to those, you realize these episodes all have something in common right ?

They're all from the first four seasons.

Pandorica opens is from season 5. 5 seasons is a lot of TV. Six years, in fact.

I missed "Pandorica Opens" in that post (probably because I don't like it all that much). And yeah, Doctor Who has been coasting for a long, long time. Hopefully this last episode is a sign that Moffat has finally found back the magic from his standalone episodes in the RTD era.

[Kirian]

While I think the last episode does compare to those, you realize these episodes all have something in common right ?

They're all from the first four seasons.

Pandorica opens is from season 5. 5 seasons is a lot of TV. Six years, in fact.

Technically yes, but DW seasons are shorter than US TV seasons.  By a factor of two or so.  Seven seasons of New DW, counting all the specials, is the same screen time as the first four seasons of TNG.

[Teproc]

While I think the last episode does compare to those, you realize these episodes all have something in common right ?

They're all from the first four seasons.

Pandorica opens is from season 5. 5 seasons is a lot of TV. Six years, in fact.

Technically yes, but DW seasons are shorter than US TV seasons.  By a factor of two or so.  Seven seasons of New DW, counting all the specials, is the same screen time as the first four seasons of TNG.

What's your point ?

Also I'd assume people posting in a Doctor Who thread know about the length of British seasons (or series if we really want to be technical).

[jsh357]

While I think the last episode does compare to those, you realize these episodes all have something in common right ?

They're all from the first four seasons.

Pandorica opens is from season 5. 5 seasons is a lot of TV. Six years, in fact.

Technically yes, but DW seasons are shorter than US TV seasons.  By a factor of two or so.  Seven seasons of New DW, counting all the specials, is the same screen time as the first four seasons of TNG.

What's your point ?

Also I'd assume people posting in a Doctor Who thread know about the length of British seasons (or series if we really want to be technical).

His point was to counter the claim that "5 seasons is a lot of TV," at least by US television standards. 

[EFHW]

It's also the episode that finally makes 12 distinctive in non-superficial ways.

I agree.

The tensions between Dan and Clara were more realistic than their previous interaction, too. 

[Kirian]

Finally got a chance to view Listen.  Possibly the best one-off episode since Blink, not counting the ultra-special Day of the Doctor.

Also, what's up with you crazy people who didn't like River Song?  I personally think the reason Series 7 seemed so... off?  just plain bad by comparison?  is that The Wedding of River Song was the real end of the 11th Doctor's arc.  Series 7 was just a huge extended prologue to the anniversary episodes.

[Dsell]

Riversong is my absolute favorite Dr. Who character ever. By quite a bit, actually. I really wish she were a fixture, but I understand why they didn't make her that way.

[Teproc]

I liked River Song at first, but the character never went anywhere. It was just the same note, over and over again. Which was fun for a time, but just became grating.

[Davio]

The main thing I liked about her was that she was the only one able to match the doctor.

[ashersky]

I liked River Song at first, but the character never went anywhere. It was just the same note, over and over again. Which was fun for a time, but just became grating.

That's the doctor's sister that has visions and stuff, right?  And Captain Reynolds doesn't want her on board but is overruled?

[Tables]

So Time Heist, best Doctor Who episode in quite a while. Up until now, this series had seemed fairly mediocre to me. Episode 1 was pretty entertaining but dragged on a little. Episode 2 was good, although it was also fairly predictable for the most part. Episode 3 felt like a generic filler episode. Episode 4 was one of those potentially great ones marred by awful writing (CLARA LET GO OF THE IDIOT BALL!). But episode 5 has really excited me for this series's potential.

[Davio]

Finally an episode I liked, hurray!

Although I didn't get the end with the fuzzy time logic.

Can anyone explain how it's possible that:
1. The Doctor gets a call
2. The Doctor tells someone to call him
3. Go back to one

How would such a loop be possible?

I know trying to use regular physics to understand Dr Who is neigh impossible, but I'd like for the episodes to make at least some sense.

[Teproc]

Can you think of a time travel story that makes sense Davio ? Because I can't.

This episode was ok, I don't know. I was disappointed by the direction, it asn't as slick as I expected a "heist" episode to be.

[Kirian]

That sort of closed information loop is a staple of time travel fiction.  In this case, though, it's technically an open loop due to amnesia; at the time The Doctor gives her the phone number, he doesn't remember the original call.. Karabraxos remembers the original heist, however; she can therefore be all but assured of the heist's success.  At the same time, The Doctor has figured out that he's the guy who made this all happen, so he guesses that an information loop is needed, and gives away his number.

Other closed information loops include Chuck Berry's "sound" in Back to the Future, Zefram Cochran's quote in First Contact, at least one instance in a Stainless Steel Rat book,  --All You Zombies--,

Hell, look up Stable TimenLoop on Tvtropes.  Try not to get sucked in for hours though.

[Galzria]

You don't even need to look back that far. One of the best examples in recent history is 'Blink'.

1) Doctor receives a script of questions and answers
2) Doctor gets trapped back in time
3) Doctor creates 'Easter Eggs' with his portion of the script
4) Sparrow asks the questions on the script, based off the answers the Doctor has recorded.
5) Sparrow provides Doctor with Script

If the Doctor doesn't have the script before he gets trapped, he can't get back - yet the script can't be made unless it already existed TO be made.

Timey-Wimey, Wibbly-Wobbly of course. And that's all you have here as well. A -> B -> C -> A.

That said, this was my least liked episode of the new run. From a story standpoint, and a writing/acting standpoint, it was fine. But the direction killed me. The scenes were choppy, the overuse of a single corridor under different lighting (albeit a DW staple as well) felt like a missed opportunity, and I never felt any real suspense building during the heist itself.

The first few minutes of the episode detailed this bank, the safest in the known universe, unbreakable, highest possible security, etc. etc. - But when it came to breaking in, they didn't need to bypass the atomically locked seals, or deal with regulated air supply. They needed to climb down some back shaft ladders, unscrew a few vents, and crawl down to the vault. There was no REAL sense of the place being all that secure.

I dunno. I guess I was hoping for a direction style and story layout more like Ocean's 11/12/13.  It's still a far cry better than almost anything in the Smith era though, so I can't really complain (no hate towards Smith, but I'm so glad to have moved Doctor Who back away from being a storybook fantasy - and you know how Capaldi's Doctor felt about Robin Hood's laughter? That's how I felt about Smith's Doctor almost every episode...)

[Teproc]

What Galzria said.

I didn't hate the Matt Smith era though. It was fun, especially the first season.

[EFHW]

I really liked that they tied in the unanswered question of how Clara got the Doctor's number back at the start of season 7. 

[EFHW]

The first few minutes of the episode detailed this bank, the safest in the known universe, unbreakable, highest possible security, etc. etc. - But when it came to breaking in, they didn't need to bypass the atomically locked seals, or deal with regulated air supply. They needed to climb down some back shaft ladders, unscrew a few vents, and crawl down to the vault. There was no REAL sense of the place being all that secure.

I noticed that too.  Kind of a bummer.

I dunno. I guess I was hoping for a direction style and story layout more like Ocean's 11/12/13.  It's still a far cry better than almost anything in the Smith era though, so I can't really complain (no hate towards Smith, but I'm so glad to have moved Doctor Who back away from being a storybook fantasy - and you know how Capaldi's Doctor felt about Robin Hood's laughter? That's how I felt about Smith's Doctor almost every episode...)

I loved Matt Smith's Doctor!  He isn't as debonair as David Tennant, who is so far my favorite.  But he was funny and affectionate and kind, but with some really dark moments too.  I also liked when he got exasperated - "it's a time machine, any time is good for me".

[Galzria]

I dunno. I guess I was hoping for a direction style and story layout more like Ocean's 11/12/13.  It's still a far cry better than almost anything in the Smith era though, so I can't really complain (no hate towards Smith, but I'm so glad to have moved Doctor Who back away from being a storybook fantasy - and you know how Capaldi's Doctor felt about Robin Hood's laughter? That's how I felt about Smith's Doctor almost every episode...)

I loved Matt Smith's Doctor!  He isn't as debonair as David Tennant, who is so far my favorite.  But he was funny and affectionate and kind, but with some really dark moments too.  I also liked when he got exasperated - "it's a time machine, any time is good for me".

I didn't hate him by any means. It was really the story's that were written for him more than anything. I guess, I just never felt like I could take him seriously - he always felt like a fairy tale. In a way, that was largely intentional. It's how Amy saw him. But even his "darker" moments came across as... almost not genuine. He had a "Hmph! I'm going to pout in my corner now because I'm mad at you!" type attitude, and yet so often he would flip that 20 seconds later to laughing and brandishing the Sonic. He was whimsical, and he had charm, and he certainly knew how to have fun - I dunno. Maybe I'm getting old. But Smith lacked gravitas (Capaldi is almost an extreme opposite in this...) - best way for me to describe my feelings are that I just struggled to take him seriously.

[Kirian]

I just never felt like I could take him seriously - he always felt like a fairy tale. In a way, that was largely intentional.

Doctor Who is a fairy tale.  It's the story of a nearly-immortal, nearly-omnipotent person with the power to cross all of space and time.  He is essentially limited only by the plot--something that was an obstacle last week isn't even a bump in the road next week--and his own moral code.  He takes mortals whizzing through all of space and time, showing them things they could not even have dreamed of.  He can fascinate nearly anyone, sometimes even those who begin antagonistic to him.  He is always helpful, "never cruel or cowardly," and bends time to his will in order to fix his own mistakes.  He has literally destroyed and created universes!

He is a demigod who fits the mold of Peter Pan better than that of Q.  Of course it's a fairy tale!  And if that isn't enough to convince you, listen to River Song, at the end of Flesh and Stone:

River Song: You'll see me again, quite soon, when the Pandorica opens.
The Doctor: The Pandorica! [laughs] [sotto voce] That's a fairy tale!
River Song: [laughs] Doctor! Aren't we all?

[Galzria]

Ah, I agree, certainly Matt's entire storyline was. That's my point.

Yes, it's all make-believe, but Smith's Doctor was consistently written (or so I felt) to be more "magical". He was Amy's Raggedy Doctor. Her imaginary friend.

Yes, Matt's era WAS a fairy tale. River is absolutely right about that. Which is why I don't hate Smith for the way he portrayed the Doctor. His entire time was written to bank on that image.

You wouldn't say that Ecclestone's travels or arc were anything like a fairy tale. Sure, they're just as made up, but there was a seriousness to them, a feeling of being grounded.

Tennant DID have some fairy tale stories, but his arcs still came across as more Sci-Fi than fantasy overall. With the exception of perhaps The Master shooting fireballs... ugh.

All that isn't to say that the two can't coexist. Sci-Fi/Fantasy most often require one another. Smith's tenure just went too far to one extreme for my taste, and comments like River's, or descriptions presented by Amy, show that it was quite an intentional shift by the writers.

Yes, Dinosaurs in London is closer to Fairy Tale than Sci-Fi. And Robin Hood? You're absolutely right. But the 'feeling' of the stories has shifted. The overall tone feels more serious, and more mature. The Doctor "feels" more real now than before. He reacts in ways that make sense - for a human, a timelord, or any other being. His internal struggles with self-identification feel justified. He's not as personable as Smith was, no. But he comes across as much more real.

[Teproc]

Every time I think I have something to say,Galzria says it better.

Matt Smith was great at the comedy aspect of Doctor Who, but whenever he tried to be serious, it didn't work for me.

[EFHW]

A lot of times the madcap fooling around seemed directly related to his shaking off bad thoughts,  in a kind of desperate way, really.

[Davio]

You don't even need to look back that far. One of the best examples in recent history is 'Blink'.

1) Doctor receives a script of questions and answers
2) Doctor gets trapped back in time
3) Doctor creates 'Easter Eggs' with his portion of the script
4) Sparrow asks the questions on the script, based off the answers the Doctor has recorded.
5) Sparrow provides Doctor with Script

If the Doctor doesn't have the script before he gets trapped, he can't get back - yet the script can't be made unless it already existed TO be made.

Timey-Wimey, Wibbly-Wobbly of course. And that's all you have here as well. A -> B -> C -> A.

I still don't understand.

Imagine that time is like an infinitely high apartment building.
Every floor is a certain point in time. So the person that's typing this is the one living on floor number 25th of September 2014 10:49 UTC+2.

This building has elevators, allowing the people in them to time travel to other floors / points in time.
I see a future self arriving on my floor and he gives me a gold watch.

Where does this watch come from? Because I both give it and got it, it has always existed, materializing out of thin air?

And if history is fixed and you can't change it (you can only cause things to happen), then by extrapolation, the future is fixed as well. Assuming I got the gold watch from my future self, I know that at some point in the future, I have to go back in time and give myself the watch. So the time line is fixed all the way, from the beginning of time, until the end of time.

[Kuildeous]

You raise good points, but time paradoxes are hard to film while making the plot interesting, moreso in multiple episodes.

In many instances, I just shut off that portion of the brain when they get into time travel plots because I know that their explanation isn't going to be good enough so I might as well just take it at face value. It's my defense mechanism. If I didn't have it, then I wouldn't be able to enjoy Doctor Who, Back to the Future, or Terminator.

I finally got to watch Listen and the Time Heist this week. I really enjoyed both of these episodes and feel better about the series since watching the Robot Hood episode.

Listen had an atmosphere similar to the Silence. I enjoyed that feeling, and it had some clever nuanced humor, such as the Doctor taking the coffee cup. Also, I started to get a little bit interested in the Clara/Dan relationship. Despite liking this episode overall, a couple of things did bug me. Why did no one in the restaurant notice the man in the space suit? I had thought that like all things Who, this was one of those things that happen that others can't see, but there's no indication that their descendant (presumably) shouldn't be seen, especially in that get-up. Also, while there was neat closure with the Doctor's obsession with the dream, it doesn't really explain the missing chalk at the end of the opening monologue. The creature on the bed could indeed be another child playing a joke, and I love how ambiguous they left that, but what's the deal with the chalk, unless he's gone all Tyler Durden on us (which could be interesting).

Time Heist had all the whimsy that I liked about the show. It reminds me of my first time watching. I started watching at 11th Hour. Shortly after that (the second episode?) was the episode with the space whales. The Zoltar-like machines throughout the colony that acted as judge, jury, and executioner. Time Heist had that same feeling with such absurd situations. The whole story is very reminiscent of Dick's Paycheck, which is one my favorite stories.

[Kirian]

I see a future self arriving on my floor and he gives me a gold watch.

Where does this watch come from? Because I both give it and got it, it has always existed, materializing out of thin air?

Possibly, but likely not.  The watch he's giving you now will likely be at least slightly beaten up by the time you become future you; obviously, future you is going to have to go out and buy a new watch.  Paradoxes like this one rarely (though not never) involve physical objects, because of things like wear and tear.  Consider Galzria's example of Blink.  At no time did an object form a loop; only information did.  Similarly, there were no objects that looped in Time Heist.

(Note that we already know loops like this can happen in real life at the level of fundamental particles; a virtual positron-electron pair that annihilate shortly after coming into existence can also be viewed as a single virtual electron travelling in a time loop, absorbing a photon in the past and emitting it in the future.)

And if history is fixed and you can't change it (you can only cause things to happen), then by extrapolation, the future is fixed as well. Assuming I got the gold watch from my future self, I know that at some point in the future, I have to go back in time and give myself the watch. So the time line is fixed all the way, from the beginning of time, until the end of time.

That depends on the story, and how much the writer feels the viewers/readers are willing to suspend their disbelief.  Some time travel stories (To Say Nothing of the Dog by Connie Willis is an exemplar of the form) depend on a mostly-fixed timeline.  (Go read that book if you haven't.  Seriously.)  Others rely on multiple timelines--the Star Trek universe relies heavily on this, though The Voyage Home effectively relied on a fixed timeline.  Still others--including Doctor Who--allow for a single mutable timeline, with of course weird aborted pocket timelines that show up from time to time (Wedding of River Song, Stolen Earth/Journey's End), and sometimes alternate universes as well (Rise of the Cybermen/Age of Steel/Army of Ghosts/Doomsday).  To say that the Doctor Who universe is "inconsistent" is a bit of an understatement; as I said, fairy tale.  I hold that that term applies outside the Eleventh Doctor's run, for various reasons.

[Kuildeous]

I didn't have the same dislike for Caretaker as I did for the first episodes this season, but it's definitely not my favorite. It does, however, seem to reveal more of Clara than the other episodes. She's very much human in this episode, and that part was kind of fun.

Looks like I'm watching the next episode alone, as the preview was enough to keep my wife away. Severe arachnophobia has no place with this episode, it seems.

[Dsell]

I thought Caretaker fell really flat. My least favorite episode of the season by a mile. The only bright spot was Clara, I thought just about everything else was pointless or even annoying.

[Elanchana]

Does anybody have any theories about what's up with the whole Heaven thing? I normally have some idea of what's going on but I have no clue what Moffat is trying to do there. And the fact that the show (or at least the reboot) hasn't ever done anything with post-death consciousness before is making me reeeeeeeeeeeeally suspicious.

[jsh357]

My theory is that Missy is a renegade Time Lord, possibly one that was in the classic series, possibly a new character.  Her motive is anyone's guess.

[Teproc]

My theory is that Missy is a renegade Time Lord, possibly one that was in the classic series, possibly a new character.  Her motive is anyone's guess.

Missy is the Rani !

I haven't even watched the classic series but it seems that every single time there's a mystery, that's everyone's theory.

I really couldn't care less about that part of the show. Moffatt has shown before that he's unable to wrap these things up satisfyingly, so my expectations are extremely low.

[Kirian]

I thought Caretaker fell really flat. My least favorite episode of the season by a mile.

Did you miss Robot of Sherwood?  Or are we consigning that to the pile with Spock's Brain, Sub Rosa, and Love and Monsters, and not acknowledging it existed?

[Teproc]

I thought Caretaker fell really flat. My least favorite episode of the season by a mile.

Did you miss Robot of Sherwood?  Or are we consigning that to the pile with Spock's Brain, Sub Rosa, and Love and Monsters, and not acknowledging it existed?

Love and Monsters is great. I was so disappointed when I found out everyone hated it.

Robots of Sherwood wasn't that awful either. It was silly, but I liked how over-the-top Robin Hood was, it was entertaining.

[Teproc]

To be clear : I'm saying Love and Monsters is great, not Robots of Sherwood. Robots was mediocre but kind of fun.

[Kuildeous]

That is a truly deplorable opinion of an episode if you rank it as low as or lower than Robot Hood.

I admit that I enjoyed the montage of Clara meeting Danny after her various adventures. It showcases the weirdness of having time adventures whilst juggling a real life.

I really disliked the Doctor's refusal to admit that soldiers can be smart. Yeah, we all know that the Doctor has an aversion to warfare (mostly), and it's reasonable to expect him to treat soldiers differently, but this stubborn, childish rejection of the notion that a former soldier is capable of teaching anything other than PE is just a caricature. And while caricatures are peppered throughout the series, they are generally enjoyable—or at the minimum, tolerable. This was just stupid, and it portrays the Doctor as stupid.

It can be amusing when the Doctor tries to pass as a normal human (Matt Smith as the tenant comes to mind), but this was such a ham-fisted approach that it was actually kind of awkward to watch.

I feel like I should rewatch Listen or Time Heist to make myself less disappointed with this season.

[Teproc]

The Caretaker made me really uncomfortable for how it regressed Clara's character to the helpless woman who has to be validated by the men around her. She has no agency in this episode, which is a real step back considering how her character had progressed this season.

And I don't think Capaldi is great at being goofy. It seems to me that his style of humour (and I haven't watched The Thick of It so I don't know exactly what he's like there) is more dry and sarcastic than big and goofy like Matt Smith.

[Beyond Awesome]

While the writing is not always the greatest this season, I do like where the series is going, and I like Capaldi overall.

[Voltaire]

I fell very behind, and I'm catching up now (haven't caught up with the thread). Just saw "Listen" and "Time Heist" and they were both just amazing.

I don't care if this version of Clara is clearly a reboot, it's amazing and I love it and don't care about the plot hole with her change.

SEE DOCTOR WHO DOCTOR/COMPANIONS ARE GREAT WHEN THEY AREN'T SEXUAL TENSION! You proved it in the new series with Donna, why didn't you learn your lesson?

Oh, you did, you lectured us in the first episode.

Sorry, still carrying some residual bitterness from the start of this season.

But it's okay. All is forgiven. I love you again.

[Elanchana]

Clara. Way to call the Doctor out on his BS. And way to do it like an actual spontaneous rant and not some rehearsed script that's only semi-convincing. You go girl.

The eggmoon is a whole 'nother story...

[Kirian]

Gah.  I just saw Kill the Moon and all I can say is... what a waste of a great setup. 

The setup was excellent.  But at the end the decision was Clara's and Courtney's alone, at odds with, well, the whole rest of the world... after telling Earth they had to make the decision together.  And then the very existence of an actual decision is called into question by the appearance of the TARDIS immediately after.  I wanted to shout at my screen.  At least Clara understood this and rightfully tore him a new one.

Also, what happened to "You look like giants" from Ten?

And that's ignoring the bad science--normally easy to do, but in this case more difficult because instead of hand-waving it the way they usually do, they let it stand.  Eggs don't gain mass as they grow, dammit!

[Voltaire]

Just watched "The Caretaker". I am actively furious. The other episodes (1-3) were bad, confused, unclear, aimless, poorly written. 4 was great, 5 was good.

"Caretaker" was a tightly-scripted, intelligently written "The Doctor is an intolerable jackass, and the kind of person you like to imagine suffering slow, painful deaths, let alone spend any amount of time with."

That's not terribly articulate, but it felt like the takeaway I was supposed to get from that episode was "Hate the Doctor."

Fuck you, Moffat. Fuck you.

Worst episode of the revival, hands-down.

[Axxle]

I saw someone mention that the new Doctor is basically Sherlock, I think it was a decently accurate.

[Voltaire]

Hey, so in "Kill the Moon", Clara breaks up with the Doctor. And I supported her!

Is that what you want me to feel about your protagonist, Moffat? That I hate him, and he should go away? I'm supposed to hate the mad man with a box?

I saw someone mention that the new Doctor is basically Sherlock, I think it was a decently accurate.

Only if Sherlock were so unpleasant to be unwatchable, instead of charming in an antagonistic way.

[Voltaire]

Man, I don't even know anymore. "Mummy on the Orient Express" is an instant classic. A+, 9/10, etc. That's how you make 12 distinct but still the Doctor. Not like in "Kill the Moon", where he says "Not my planet, not my problem." The Doctor said that. About Earth. *facepalm*

But serious. "Mummy" is so good. This is a season of extremes. It's tearing me apart!

[Kuildeous]

Is that what you want me to feel about your protagonist, Moffat? That I hate him, and he should go away? I'm supposed to hate the mad man with a box?

Mummy on the Orient Express covered this, I feel. I felt the heated spat at the end of Kill the Moon was appropriate (if tacked onto the end of a mediocre-at-best episode). My wife and I did express confusion at the opening of Mummy when they seemed all buddy-buddy, but it became quickly apparent that they were just putting on airs. These two episodes worked to present what was essentially breaking up and making up.

Mummy was certainly emblematic of Doctor Who. It was absurd but not ridiculously so (if that makes sense; see Robot of Sherwood for the type of absurd I didn't like—a fine line, to be sure). This episode was not my favorite, but it did the job. It did show a vulnerable side to the Doctor when Clara thought he had everything under control when he instructed her to lie to the passenger about being perfectly all right.

Not sure if talking to himself is going to be a thing. I found it disconcerting coming from Capaldi. I'm not sure why. It's not like it's the first time the Doctor talked to himself.

[EFHW]

So Clara had kind of a wild-eyed look when she suddenly decided to stay with the Doctor.  Kind of like she is addicted and staying gave her a high.  I was kind of disappointed, it didn't seem like what she should do.  Her diatribe the episode before seemed deserved and not that unusual.  River Song certainly hated the Doctor at times, but he was still a good person.  When is this Doctor going to start doing something about his mistaekes.

[Voltaire]

Is that what you want me to feel about your protagonist, Moffat? That I hate him, and he should go away? I'm supposed to hate the mad man with a box?

Mummy on the Orient Express covered this, I feel.

And that order is important. I hadn't seen Mummy when I made that comment.

It's clear they were going for the break-up/make-up thing, but in order for that to work, you have to give the audience a reason why the make-up is a good idea. If the Doctor is going to be more like "Mummy" it's a great idea. If he's going to be more like "Episodes 1-7" it's a terrible idea. And that's the issue. Like I said before, I was on Clara's side at the end of "Moon," because they sank the Doctor to such unforgivable depths of jackass-ery. He redeemed himself in "Mummy," sure, but it's only a start.

[Galzria]

I actually strongly prefer this version to any we've had since the reboot. Reminds me of Hartnell - a crotchety, sulky, brooding, unhappy, and generally unlikable old man. He's not a hero, and he doesn't try to / pretend to be.

[Voltaire]

I actually strongly prefer this version to any we've had since the reboot. Reminds me of Hartnell - a crotchety, sulky, brooding, unhappy, and generally unlikable old man. He's not a hero, and he doesn't try to / pretend to be.

That's not William Hartnell's Doctor. I hate it when people say that's the First Doctor. Old and cranky != unlikable. Also, the First Doctor explained himself. I love the first Doctor. I hate 12.

[Polk5440]

I actually strongly prefer this version to any we've had since the reboot. Reminds me of Hartnell - a crotchety, sulky, brooding, unhappy, and generally unlikable old man. He's not a hero, and he doesn't try to / pretend to be.

Easily my favorite version of the modern doctors, too. I love the monologues, the professorial questions, the fact that he has trouble distinguishing people's ages (I feel for him), and the fact there is no sugar-coating. He doesn't pretend or joke about his necessary lies anymore (this bothered me given the family nature of the show -- "rule 1: the doctor lies" haha. cute line. cute guy. I guess that makes it okay, then?). The Doctor is consistent in character, but not in tone.

But I would disagree with the "he's not a hero" part. He's exactly the hero he's always been. He peddles the morality he's always peddled in the modern series. But just not with the veneer of a young man vworrrp-ing between pranks.

I also think it's neat at least one of the episodes (Moon) was penned for Smith's version of the Doctor.

[Polk5440]

So Clara had kind of a wild-eyed look when she suddenly decided to stay with the Doctor.  Kind of like she is addicted and staying gave her a high. 

That's what I got out of it, too.

[Voltaire]

Galzria, how much of the First Doctor have you watched? I ask this because many people watch "An Unearthly Child," for historical purposes, and don't watch much else with 1 in it. And the show was still finding its footing, including the Doctor, who almost straight-up murders someone just to escape from captivity. However, this is wildly inaccurate as a representation of who the First Doctor would quickly become, a mischievous, excitable old man who delighted in adventure (and would frequently argue with his companions, sure, but there was so much more than that).

Plus, the truly big Hartnell tantrum I remember (I'm on Season...3? I think? And remember, the show was serialized, this is quite far into the show at this point) is when Ian and Barbara leave, and it was heartbreaking, because he was clearly using the excuse that (spoilers for 50 year old TV here) the Dalek ship was unsafe as an excuse to try to keep his friends from leaving him.

Though he did straight-up abandon his granddaughter in a post-apocalyptic Earth. The man wasn't a saint. 

[Voltaire]

td;dr version of my argument: The 1st Doctor has warmth. The 12th Doctor is cold. Both are cranky old(er) men, but they are not similar.

[Galzria]

Galzria, how much of the First Doctor have you watched? I ask this because many people watch "An Unearthly Child," for historical purposes, and don't watch much else with 1 in it. And the show was still finding its footing, including the Doctor, who almost straight-up murders someone just to escape from captivity. However, this is wildly inaccurate as a representation of who the First Doctor would quickly become, a mischievous, excitable old man who delighted in adventure (and would frequently argue with his companions, sure, but there was so much more than that).

Plus, the truly big Hartnell tantrum I remember (I'm on Season...3? I think? And remember, the show was serialized, this is quite far into the show at this point) is when Ian and Barbara leave, and it was heartbreaking, because he was clearly using the excuse that (spoilers for 50 year old TV here) the Dalek ship was unsafe as an excuse to try to keep his friends from leaving him.

Though he did straight-up abandon his granddaughter in a post-apocalyptic Earth. The man wasn't a saint. 

I've watched every serial and episode, and have the audio for  all the episodes that were destroyed (yes, it still exists).

[Galzria]

I actually strongly prefer this version to any we've had since the reboot. Reminds me of Hartnell - a crotchety, sulky, brooding, unhappy, and generally unlikable old man. He's not a hero, and he doesn't try to / pretend to be.

Easily my favorite version of the modern doctors, too. I love the monologues, the professorial questions, the fact that he has trouble distinguishing people's ages (I feel for him), and the fact there is no sugar-coating. He doesn't pretend or joke about his necessary lies anymore (this bothered me given the family nature of the show -- "rule 1: the doctor lies" haha. cute line. cute guy. I guess that makes it okay, then?). The Doctor is consistent in character, but not in tone.

But I would disagree with the "he's not a hero" part. He's exactly the hero he's always been. He peddles the morality he's always peddled in the modern series. But just not with the veneer of a young man vworrrp-ing between pranks.

I also think it's neat at least one of the episodes (Moon) was penned for Smith's version of the Doctor.

That's true. When I say he's "not a hero", I was referring more to "not being a cuddly and loveable guy who always saves the world".  You're right though that he's still him - still getting the job done.

[Galzria]

I mean, to put my feelings most bluntly:

For much of Smith's run, I recorded and watched each episode out of love for the show. I rarely ever couldn't wait with anticipation for Saturday to come.

Here it's very much the opposite. Each Saturday can't come soon enough. I just want to know/see what happens with this Doctor next. Sure, not all of the stories have been crackers, and one or two have felt way off the mark - but even when that's the case, I've felt let down by the story, not the characters.

Some of Tenant had me feeling this way. Much of Eccleston did as well. Smith was simply to... childish for my tastes, and I much much much prefer this mature, if at times seemingly distant/cold/unlikable Doctor. He's simply 1000x more compelling.

[jsh357]

I mean, to put my feelings most bluntly:

For much of Smith's run, I recorded and watched each episode out of love for the show. I rarely ever couldn't wait with anticipation for Saturday to come.

Here it's very much the opposite. Each Saturday can't come soon enough. I just want to know/see what happens with this Doctor next. Sure, not all of the stories have been crackers, and one or two have felt way off the mark - but even when that's the case, I've felt let down by the story, not the characters.

Some of Tenant had me feeling this way. Much of Eccleston did as well. Smith was simply to... childish for my tastes, and I much much much prefer this mature, if at times seemingly distant/cold/unlikable Doctor. He's simply 1000x more compelling.

This is basically how I felt, though my problems with Smith were more on the stories than Smith himself.

[Voltaire]

Forest of the Night was bad, but I enjoyed it anyway, which makes me happy - the previous bad episodes this season weren't fun. Of course I loved the Doctor's "This is my planet too," but that just made "Kill the Moon" even worse - it means they made an explicit choice for the Doctor to go on that "arc", and it's completely unbelievable that he would have to take such a "journey" to understand that Earth and humans mean a lot to him.

And my goodness, loved Dark Water. The show has dealt with serious issues before, but usually not in a "mature" fashion, and that's what I thought we got with this episode. Absolutely not what I was expecting, but stunning. Having Clara's defiant stand at the start turn out to be a dream was extremely cheap, but it was magnificent anyway. (The entire time she was throwing away keys, I was expecting the Doctor to let her toss all of them, then say "You've forgotten one thing," and snap his fingers to open the doors.)

Very happy that Missy is a Time Lady, and completely fine with her being the Master. The only part of it I don't like is her earlier-episode comments that the Doctor is her "boyfriend" and her kissing the Doctor - look, if you're going to do Doctor/Master slash, have the guts to do it when the Master is still male. Waiting until she's conveniently female is grating, and more "Moffat being Moffat". That is, if they even go down that road. I have hope that these comments were just Mistress-esque madness and won't be dwelt on, which would be for the best.

Really looking forward to the finale, and it's been awhile since I've been able to say that! 

[Voltaire]

Oh, I forgot to comment on "Flatline." Wonderful. 7 or 8 out of 10, good episode. The season is ending strong, thank goodness!

[Elanchana]

Very happy that Missy is a Time Lady, and completely fine with her being the Master. The only part of it I don't like is her earlier-episode comments that the Doctor is her "boyfriend" and her kissing the Doctor - look, if you're going to do Doctor/Master slash, have the guts to do it when the Master is still male. Waiting until she's conveniently female is grating, and more "Moffat being Moffat". That is, if they even go down that road. I have hope that these comments were just Mistress-esque madness and won't be dwelt on, which would be for the best.

YES. THIS. YES YES YES. On the one hand, I'm REALLY happy that we finally have a legit female Gallifreyan/Time Lady again and that there's been a male-to-female regeneration, but on the other, is Moffat seriously canonizing Doctor/Master now just because the Master is a woman? That just screams homophobia AND misogyny. Oh sure he'll make a lesbian couple as background characters and such but when it actually "matters", nope, no non-straights allowed. Like you, the least I can hope is that the story doesn't actually dwell on it. Also, I really want to know what the person in question's plans are...

Not to mention, some of the lines in this episode reminded me a LOT of a scene from my favorite webseries, Chronicles of Syntax. Spooky much? (the beginning is timestamped in the link - watch until at least 14:43 to get the connection)

[Kuildeous]

Oh, I forgot to comment on "Flatline." Wonderful. 7 or 8 out of 10, good episode. The season is ending strong, thank goodness!

I liked Flatline too. Wasn't too thrilled with the forest one. It's sad that the season is so hit and miss, but I'm enjoying the hits.

I have not seen the latest because I heard it's a two-parter. Suspense is for suckers. I'll watch it when I get part 2 on the DVR as well.

[Polk5440]

I have not seen the latest because I heard it's a two-parter. Suspense is for suckers. I'll watch it when I get part 2 on the DVR as well.

Same! 

[Kirian]

Let's see, my ratings:

Deep Breath - 7.  Not amazing, but pretty good, better than Christmas Invasion for a new Doctor.
Into the Dalek - 5.  Good acting, OK plot, awful effects.
Robot of Sherwood - A solid 0.  WTF.*
Listen - 10.  Some weird crazy slingshot upward from the previous episode.
Time Heist - 9.  Not perfect, but a better-than-solid episode.
Caretaker - 4.  You know, the acting this season is really top-notch, even from the minor players.**
Kill the Moon - 1.  Really great acting.  The last shouting match saves this from a zero.
Mummy - 7.  OK, see, we could have had stories like this all along, where have the writers been?
Flatline - 7.  Well, someone was able to get Capaldi's subtle humor done well in the script.
Forest - 8.  The first ending was a bit cheesy, and the second ending was just plain weird, but the episode as a whole was great.

I also haven't yet watched Dark Water, though I'm looking forward to it.

*So I'm looking through an episode list, looking at the writers, and thinking "Why the fuck are they still letting Mark Gatiss write for the show?"
**Speaking of writers, this one was written by the same person who wrote The Lodger and Closing Time.  I guess he didn't get the memo that Capaldi's doctor just wasn't going to be quite as humorous as Smith's?

[Galzria]

I really wanted to like Forest. I can't say anything -really- negative about it even. But on 4 attempts to watch it, I've fallen asleep 4 times midway through. I've managed to piece together the story, and I've read full synopsis write-ups, but I just cannot seem to care about what's going on.

[Elanchana]

I personally thought Flatline was the strongest episode writing-wise of the season, but the horror element crossed a line with me. I had to remember how to move after watching it.

[werothegreat]

Let's see, my ratings:

Deep Breath - 7.  Not amazing, but pretty good, better than Christmas Invasion for a new Doctor.
Into the Dalek - 5.  Good acting, OK plot, awful effects.
Robot of Sherwood - A solid 0.  WTF.*
Listen - 10.  Some weird crazy slingshot upward from the previous episode.
Time Heist - 9.  Not perfect, but a better-than-solid episode.
Caretaker - 4.  You know, the acting this season is really top-notch, even from the minor players.**
Kill the Moon - 1.  Really great acting.  The last shouting match saves this from a zero.
Mummy - 7.  OK, see, we could have had stories like this all along, where have the writers been?
Flatline - 7.  Well, someone was able to get Capaldi's subtle humor done well in the script.
Forest - 8.  The first ending was a bit cheesy, and the second ending was just plain weird, but the episode as a whole was great.

I also haven't yet watched Dark Water, though I'm looking forward to it.

*So I'm looking through an episode list, looking at the writers, and thinking "Why the fuck are they still letting Mark Gatiss write for the show?"
**Speaking of writers, this one was written by the same person who wrote The Lodger and Closing Time.  I guess he didn't get the memo that Capaldi's doctor just wasn't going to be quite as humorous as Smith's?

I saw Deep Breath in theatres, and honestly was kind of bored the whole time.  I'm just so bothered by the fact that Lizard-bian has EYELASHES.  Reptiles do not have eyelashes!

With regards to the rest of the season:
Into the Dalek - Eh.  Alright.
Sherwood - I actually very much enjoyed Capaldi and Robin Hood bickering, thank you! 
Listen - Good episode, with some really bizarre implications with side characters, which is to be expected
Time Heist - Nicely done.
Caretaker - I have to keep reminding myself what actually happened in this episode.  Pink and Clara getting pissy at each other, rah, rah, who cares.
Kill the Moon - dull, dull, THAT MAKES NO PHYSICAL SENSE, oooOOOoooo Clara's leaving!  Interesting.
Mummy - Also nicely done.
Flatline - More, please.
Forest - A little sentimental, and I really don't understand how ANYONE could possibly pass up seeing a solar flare hit Earth from orbit (dafuq, people), but good Doctor being Doctor moments.
Dark Water - WHY ISN'T "DEATH IN HEAVEN" RELEASED YET

[Tables]

Kill the Moon managed to be I feel very atypical for Doctor Who. Usually the plot is interesting, but the writing holds it back. With KtM, the episode has some excellent dialogue and writing, but the plot managed to be ridiculous in a bad sort of way.

Dark Water was great though.

[Kirian]

http://www.cracked.com/blog/how-dr.-who-became-my-religion/

An interesting if somewhat old article.

----

So I finally watched Dark Water.  And... I dunno.  It wasn't bad, it just didn't scream "holy fuck what happens next week?!" the way, say, The Pandorica Opens or Turn Left did. The Master again, Cybermen again, bah. I guess perhaps I was assuming this season's grand manipulator might be someone different (see: all of Matt Smith's run.)

[Asper]

Having a Doctor that's hard to like (in-universe) is refreshing, i think. I liked Tennant and Smith a lot, but i'm glad they decided to have a jerk for a change.

[Asper]

So I finally watched Dark Water.  And... I dunno.  It wasn't bad, it just didn't scream "holy fuck what happens next week?!" the way, say, The Pandorica Opens or Turn Left did. The Master again, Cybermen again, bah. I guess perhaps I was assuming this season's grand manipulator might be someone different (see: all of Matt Smith's run.)

A matter of taste. Personally i am happy whenever motives from the old series show up. I was very sad with how Matt Smith's series treated the Daleks for example, while Capaldi's 2nd episode reminded me of Ecclestone's "Dalek" - which i liked a lot. And Smith's "the Doctor will die" story arc was one of the most predictable ones i ever saw in the series, especially how he cheats death in the end...

[Joseph2302]

Season finale tonight, in the UK at least. Looking forward to it

[Asper]

Very happy that Missy is a Time Lady, and completely fine with her being the Master. The only part of it I don't like is her earlier-episode comments that the Doctor is her "boyfriend" and her kissing the Doctor - look, if you're going to do Doctor/Master slash, have the guts to do it when the Master is still male. Waiting until she's conveniently female is grating, and more "Moffat being Moffat". That is, if they even go down that road. I have hope that these comments were just Mistress-esque madness and won't be dwelt on, which would be for the best.

YES. THIS. YES YES YES. On the one hand, I'm REALLY happy that we finally have a legit female Gallifreyan/Time Lady again and that there's been a male-to-female regeneration, but on the other, is Moffat seriously canonizing Doctor/Master now just because the Master is a woman? That just screams homophobia AND misogyny. Oh sure he'll make a lesbian couple as background characters and such but when it actually "matters", nope, no non-straights allowed. Like you, the least I can hope is that the story doesn't actually dwell on it. Also, I really want to know what the person in question's plans are...

I think it's pretty much in character for the Master (as i have come to know him from the reboot) to regard his new gender as a means of messing with the Doctor. I wouldn't expect a romance, if i was you.

[werothegreat]

I think it's pretty much in character for the Master (as i have come to know him from the reboot) to regard his new gender SEX as a means of messing with the Doctor. I wouldn't expect a romance, if i was you.

FTFY

[EFHW]

I think it's pretty much in character for the Master (as i have come to know him from the reboot) to regard his new gender SEX as a means of messing with the Doctor. I wouldn't expect a romance, if i was you.

FTFY

It's both, apparently.

[Asper]

I think it's pretty much in character for the Master (as i have come to know him from the reboot) to regard his new gender SEX as a means of messing with the Doctor. I wouldn't expect a romance, if i was you.

FTFY

It's both, apparently.

But he's right, at least gender wasn't really what i meant. I wasn't aware of the different meanings in english.

Also i was terribly disappointed with the last episode. "Dark Water" got me excited, but "Death in Heaven" let me down. Having that Child come back from the dead was not only a cheap story tool to wash Mr. Pink clean of guilt when he did something that can't be undone, it was also a statement that there really was a netherworld (how else should the boy get his body back). It wasn't even up to interpretation like Tennent's "Devil" was, so it feels really out of place for a sci fi show. Furthermore, the "Cyberman with a conscience" idea was feeling old, and why in the world did that dead soldier hold a speech? What is this, Lord of the Rings?

[Polk5440]

Also i was terribly disappointed with the last episode. "Dark Water" got me excited, but "Death in Heaven" let me down. Having that Child come back from the dead was not only a cheap story tool to wash Mr. Pink clean of guilt when he did something that can't be undone

What show have you been watching all these years? This happens ALL THE TIME in Doctor Who. MacGuffins are this show's calling card. What was impressive about this episode is that a character we care about did not use the MacGuffin on himself as the Doctor expected. Danny could have been saved, but chose not to be because he values different things than the Doctor (and Clara). That's a tension that has been there all season that's been nice to see.

What was cheap was having Missy be the Master. Totally unnecessary for the story they were trying to tell and makes the story looser than it otherwise could have been -- how did the Master escape the time lock but no one else? for example. I would be happy if they never mentioned the Master or Gallifray again.

I also did not like the authoritarian undertones to this episode. The Doctor was unable to give a satisfactory answer to why he should not have all that power. It was like someone who is comfortable with never-ending big government wrote the episode and was unable to find a satisfactory limiting principle, but knows there has to be one somewhere. I mean, come on, no mention that the cybermen were created against the will of the people in that monologue? That at least is easy.

Very good finale overall, though. It felt totally unlike any other season finale in the modern era, and that in and of itself is a huge accomplishment.

[Asper]

Also i was terribly disappointed with the last episode. "Dark Water" got me excited, but "Death in Heaven" let me down. Having that Child come back from the dead was not only a cheap story tool to wash Mr. Pink clean of guilt when he did something that can't be undone

What show have you been watching all these years? This happens ALL THE TIME in Doctor Who. MacGuffins are this show's calling card. What was impressive about this episode is that a character we care about did not use the MacGuffin on himself as the Doctor expected. Danny could have been saved, but chose not to be because he values different things than the Doctor (and Clara). That's a tension that has been there all season that's been nice to see.

Sure, those ass-pulled solutions come up a lot. I think my main concern is that it implies a lot (let's answer a spiritual question) while doing almost nothing for the story (Mr. P. is still dead, just now he's a martyr).

While i like the old stuff like Gallifray or the Master appearing from time to time (see what i did there?), i agree with you that Missy being the Master was completely irrelevant for the story. Could have been anybody. Not even the reason why there had to be a Time Lord/Lady behind the scheme were really good.

[werothegreat]

Best part of the episode:

What do you want for Christmas?

[Davio]

I was disappointed again.

Maybe it's just me.

In previous seasons when someone would die, I would be really shocked, like "they can't do that!"
I mean, it's not Game of Thrones where anyone could die at any moment.

In this episode, when the smart lady with the glasses died, I felt.. nothing.
When Danny died in the previous episode, I felt.. nothing.

Somehow this series has failed to make me part of the experience; I've never felt more detached from Dr. Who. Maybe it's Capaldi, probably it's wise ass Clara and almost certainly it's the flawed story lines.

I suddenly saw the problem clearly during the last episode. The Doctor fails to notice a Gallifreyan hard drive just buzzing around and some other giant details right under his nose. I like when the Doctor has to play the guessing game, because he just doesn't know (Time Heist was pretty good) but in this case, it was just awful.

And the Master was never really scary like in Last of the Time Lords.

So many missed opportunities and so little surprise. I mean, I would have been surprised if Danny had walked through that portal instead of the boy he shot! And if Gallifrey had really been there like the Master said. Oh well..

[Tables]

I've seen some people in the spoilers complain that the last two episodes were homophobic/sexist in some ways. I read that and kinds just thought 'lolwut?' Essentially that's an argument saying that because Missy/The Master is straight the series is being homophobic? What's the actual issue here? I've not seen anyone else complain about it, either.

The episode itself I felt was decent - it had some very good moments, but it also felt kind of... empty? Incomplete? The episode on the whole seemed very unmemorable, and not a huge amount really happened.

[Kuildeous]

I read that to mean that the "romance" between the Master (ignoring spoilers here because her identity is already known at this point; even I knew who she was going in, and I can normally avoid such spoilers) and the Doctor seemed to be out of the blue. Why is there a romance now when there were other opportunities when they were both men? And I can't disagree with that, but this series also just makes things up as it goes along, and I'm not surprised that certain elements come out of the blue. It's kind of like how the Star Wars prequels destroy the franchise's consistency. Why didn't Darth Vader recognize C3PO in Episode 4? Why didn't R2-D2 warn Luke about Vader? Why can't R2-D2 fly in Episode 4? The truth is because things were written later that contradict or muddy previous stories.

And yeah, Doctor Who is all about hey-Daleks-aren't-extinct-after-all. I'm sure that the Master will come back from the dead somehow. This kind of oversight is common because the writers years ago didn't consider that the Master would come back as a woman. Even if they did, they probably didn't think of throwing in "romance" (I agree that it's really her exerting control and throwing the Doctor off).

I think there are bigger things to worry about. Doctor Who has been pretty progressive, really. Captain Jack was quite a bold character. The show could do more, but it does a decent job of portraying positive LGBT characters.

That being said, I still wouldn't mind if the Doctor regenerated into Helen Mirren. That would be phenomenal.

[Voltaire]

The finale was quality TV, and not Doctor Who, really. Bad things happened. People lied and were disappointed. Everyone ended up sad. Reasonably well-written sad.

And that's not why I watch Doctor Who. Another reason, on top of all the rest, why this season was just awful overall.

(And Kuildeous has the right explanation on why flirty/kissing Master drove me up the wall, though they did choose "messing with the Doctor" and not "romance" in the part 2 and for that I was grateful)

Why did they even bring back inhaler girl? I was certain, when she talked about her sister in the 50th, she was related to Clara in some timey-wimey way. Seeing her back in the trailer had me certain. And they brought her back to...kill her? Man, in my head the finale was something great about the Master escaping Gallifrey/re-writing time in the 50th/explaining Clara/how-why the Doctor and Clara got out of his timestream/why the 12th+ Doctor wasn't in there/where Gallifrey is. And instead we got...a heartbreaking story about everyone being sad.

*phhhhhtttp*

[Beyond Awesome]

Honestly, I wasn't a fan of this finale. I feel like Moffat isn't sure what he is writing at times. Overall though, I liked this season. Still to this date, I haven't really liked any of Moffat's finales. He doesn't know how to tie loose ends.

[Davio]

[..]

That being said, I still wouldn't mind if the Doctor regenerated into Helen Mirren. That would be phenomenal.

That would indeed be awesome!

[Tables]

I read that to mean that the "romance" between the Master (ignoring spoilers here because her identity is already known at this point; even I knew who she was going in, and I can normally avoid such spoilers) and the Doctor seemed to be out of the blue. Why is there a romance now when there were other opportunities when they were both men?

Just a question, but when was there ever any romance? I remember there being one kiss, very much one way, and heck that wouldn't even have been out of character for the Master as a guy. That's not romance.

[Voltaire]

I read that to mean that the "romance" between the Master (ignoring spoilers here because her identity is already known at this point; even I knew who she was going in, and I can normally avoid such spoilers) and the Doctor seemed to be out of the blue. Why is there a romance now when there were other opportunities when they were both men?

Just a question, but when was there ever any romance? I remember there being one kiss, very much one way, and heck that wouldn't even have been out of character for the Master as a guy. That's not romance.

There was never any romance. There was always simmering sexual tension (with Simm's version) the whole time. Not really a big thing, but clearly there. (nothing with the Master, any gender, is ever going to be "romantic")

Which is why I groaned when Missy was revealed, because we'd previously seen Missy refer to the Doctor as her boyfriend, and I was worried they were going whole-hog now that the Master was female. Which they didn't do, thank goodness. The point is, if they had (which, again, they didn't), it would very much have had a sheen of homophobia.

Like most things Moffat does, it teetered on the edge of being terrible and avoided it.

[Tables]

Which is why I groaned when Missy was revealed, because we'd previously seen Missy refer to the Doctor as her boyfriend, and I was worried they were going whole-hog now that the Master was female. Which they didn't do, thank goodness. The point is, if they had (which, again, they didn't), it would very much have had a sheen of homophobia.

Again, why would this be homophobic? You're saying that if two straight characters of the same gender don't have a romantic relationship, but they do if they're of different genders then it's homophobic. Or is that not what you're saying?

[Voltaire]

Which is why I groaned when Missy was revealed, because we'd previously seen Missy refer to the Doctor as her boyfriend, and I was worried they were going whole-hog now that the Master was female. Which they didn't do, thank goodness. The point is, if they had (which, again, they didn't), it would very much have had a sheen of homophobia.

Again, why would this be homophobic? You're saying that if two straight characters of the same gender don't have a romantic relationship, but they do if they're of different genders then it's homophobic. Or is that not what you're saying?

I am saying, that Moffat would get...whatever the opposite of "benefit of the doubt" is...had he actually chosen to do a relationship-thing with the Doctor at the Master only after making the Master female. But he didn't.

I think the reason you're even seeing this mentioned in the first place is because the 2-part nature of the finale left everyone with just enough information to see Moffat being terrible in Part 2 (which he then wasn't).

If he had gone that route, it wouldn't be outright homophobic but it would be very fishy that two previously male characters, with a multi-hundred year relationship, suddenly have relationshippy stuff happen immediately after one of them becomes female and they're a "straight" couple.

Do you see what I'm saying?

EDIT: This post was made in good faith but seems to have struck a nerve with some. I was called biased here, but it wasn't explained, so I am confused. For now, see this post, which does a better job of talking about this topic. If this post is misguided, I'd like to learn why, because biases should be shed!

[EFHW]

I read that to mean that the "romance" between the Master (ignoring spoilers here because her identity is already known at this point; even I knew who she was going in, and I can normally avoid such spoilers) and the Doctor seemed to be out of the blue. Why is there a romance now when there were other opportunities when they were both men?

Just a question, but when was there ever any romance? I remember there being one kiss, very much one way, and heck that wouldn't even have been out of character for the Master as a guy. That's not romance.

yeah, I can't imagine the Dr. wanting a romantic relationship with the Master, but I can see the Master being obsessed with the doctor in a sexualized way, which apparently he and later she was. 

So do you think the Dr. killed the Master, or was she transported at just that moment?  I'm not feeling great about the Doctor killing him.  It feels completely wrong, in fact.

I thought sending the boy back was the right ending, even though I was sad for Clara that she lost Danny.  He'd been tormented by that memory, and had such clear convictions about right and wrong, I don't think he could have chosen himself over the boy.  It's also true that it doesn't make any sense plot-wise, which has happened to many times this season, I think.  For example, how will she have the great-grandson astronaut now?

[Voltaire]

For example, how will she have the great-grandson astronaut now?

1. Time can be rewritten. Completely acceptable, in my book.
2. Speculation that could be spoilers: A (common) fan theory is Clara is pregnant with their kid, which was what she was trying to tell him at the start of the finale (think about it - we don't actually know what Clara was going to say before he was hit), and she's leaving after the Christmas special. Whether that is true or not, Clara-leaves-after-the-Christmas-special is a rumor that appears to have previously-reliable sources backing it.

[Tables]

Do you see what I'm saying?

No... I really don't. Perhaps it depends on how Time Lord gender has been portrayed in the past, but I can't see the issue in terms of homophobia. It would seem bizarre in terms of character in general because of said history, though, regardless of gender.

[Galzria]

So do you think the Dr. killed the Master, or was she transported at just that moment?  I'm not feeling great about the Doctor killing him.  It feels completely wrong, in fact.

I'll answer your question without actually answering it. Is the Master "gone"? No, absolutely not. Had that been the "end" to the Master, there would've been absolutely no story-telling reason for Missy to actually BE the Master to begin with. There are 1,001 different other explanations that could've resolved that story arc and kept it 95% the same. The simple fact that Missy WAS the Master will mean more down the line - whether it's Missy herself coming back as the part, or somebody else.

[Polk5440]

whatever the opposite of "benefit of the doubt" is

I am blowing the dog whistle on this, Voltaire. I think you are reading way too much of your own biases into this show and it is making this thread less than enjoyable to read.

[Polk5440]

So do you think the Dr. killed the Master, or was she transported at just that moment?  I'm not feeling great about the Doctor killing him.  It feels completely wrong, in fact.

I'll answer your question without actually answering it. Is the Master "gone"? No, absolutely not. Had that been the "end" to the Master, there would've been absolutely no story-telling reason for Missy to actually BE the Master to begin with. There are 1,001 different other explanations that could've resolved that story arc and kept it 95% the same. The simple fact that Missy WAS the Master will mean more down the line - whether it's Missy herself coming back as the part, or somebody else.

Hmmm. That's an interesting thought. I just thought it was unnecessary fan service, but this could make some sense.

Regarding what happened at the end, my understanding was that it was NOT the Doctor who shot the Master, it was the Cyberman. The Doctor was going to shoot the Master to save Clara the guilt, but right before he was going to shoot, a blue beam from off screen hits the Master. The blue haze the Master was "disolved" in looked slightly different than how a standard Cyberman shot would have looked, so it leaves it possibly ambiguous whether the Master was killed or beamed out right before the shot.

[Asper]

Do you see what I'm saying?

No... I really don't. Perhaps it depends on how Time Lord gender has been portrayed in the past, but I can't see the issue in terms of homophobia. It would seem bizarre in terms of character in general because of said history, though, regardless of gender.

I agree that the story is not homophobic. Still i can see why somebody who only saw the first part and was not familiar enough with the Master being a manipulative jerk could draw the conclusion there had to be a sexual attraction. My opinion still is that being female just gave the Master the chance to throw the Dr off guard. Anyhow, for those who see a sexual element (and just now as opposed to earlier characterizations), it must seem odd that Moffat would let it happen just as soon as the Master became female.

You don't have to share an opinion to see how somebody could arrive at it.

[Voltaire]

Do you see what I'm saying?

No... I really don't. Perhaps it depends on how Time Lord gender has been portrayed in the past, but I can't see the issue in terms of homophobia. It would seem bizarre in terms of character in general because of said history, though, regardless of gender.

Okay, I think I figured out what's going on.

Mine is about how it would come across to audience members in the real world.

Yours is about in-universe repercussions. Where I agree, there shouldn't be anything, really.

That clears things up in my head, at least.

[Voltaire]

whatever the opposite of "benefit of the doubt" is

I am blowing the dog whistle on this, Voltaire. I think you are reading way too much of your own biases into this show and it is making this thread less than enjoyable to read.

You're going to need to be more clear, here. I'd love to try to constructively respond and talk about this here, and there's a chance I'm not articulating my views clearly, but all I have to react to right now is a statement that I'm making the thread un-fun for you.

[Voltaire]

Regarding what happened at the end, my understanding was that it was NOT the Doctor who shot the Master, it was the Cyberman. The Doctor was going to shoot the Master to save Clara the guilt, but right before he was going to shoot, a blue beam from off screen hits the Master. The blue haze the Master was "disolved" in looked slightly different than how a standard Cyberman shot would have looked, so it leaves it possibly ambiguous whether the Master was killed or beamed out right before the shot.

This. I haven't re-watched, but according to another fan, the Doctor was also holding the device in a different fashion than Missy, indicating that the Doctor was likely also preparing to use it on some setting other than "kill".

[Axxle]

I wouldn't be surprised if he uploaded her to the Gallifreyan hard drive or something. That wasn't destroyed or anything, right?

[Tables]

Do you see what I'm saying?

No... I really don't. Perhaps it depends on how Time Lord gender has been portrayed in the past, but I can't see the issue in terms of homophobia. It would seem bizarre in terms of character in general because of said history, though, regardless of gender.

Okay, I think I figured out what's going on.

Mine is about how it would come across to audience members in the real world.

Yours is about in-universe repercussions. Where I agree, there shouldn't be anything, really.

That clears things up in my head, at least.

Do you have that the other way around? I'm talking about the implications in the real world. Were you talking about how it was seen in universe then? That might make it make more sense, given the complete lack of real world implication.

[Voltaire]

No, I had it the right way the first time. Honestly though, it'd be such a small thing, it's not that important, and apparently I've offended one person and confused another, I'd rather just drop it.

[Asper]

No, I had it the right way the first time. Honestly though, it'd be such a small thing, it's not that important, and apparently I've offended one person and confused another, I'd rather just drop it.

Better drop it. I'm pretty certain no one's confused but two are offended.

[Kuildeous]

For what it's worth, here's my thought on whether it could be homophobic.

If the writers knew/planned from way back when that the Master was going to be a female later and would have a romantic interest in the Doctor, then it would be homophobic to purposefully avoid having dude Master have a romantic interest in the Doctor. I would accept that, yes.

As it is, the writers of the Master before didn't really know this was going to happen. They couldn't have made the conscious choice to avoid a relationship angle. That's like complaining that Clara didn't have a romantic interest with Osgood. There was simply no reason to throw that in.

Of course, it's all academic since there wasn't really a romance subplot, but even if that were, I do not think that makes them ex post facto homophobes. That just means they saw an opportunity and seized upon it. A bad judgment call, sure. I wouldn't defend the decision. Just because there is a boy and a girl doesn't mean there has to be romantic interests (see also, previous companions).

As for the Master really being dead, I've accepted as a quasi-axiom that if you see a person disappear, he may not be dead. If you see a person disappear with his skeleton glowing, then he's dead. I've seen that many times, especially in Time Heist and Bad Wolf (or whichever one it was that has the game shows).

[Voltaire]

And I would agree with that and I've apparently done such a terrible job of communicating that I've said something else entirely?   

[Kuildeous]

And I would agree with that and I've apparently done such a terrible job of communicating that I've said something else entirely?   

Hopefully my explanation will help?

In any case, I think we can all agree that it was terrible kill off Osgood, who showed promise during her return. After all, they poked fun at the scarf during the 50th anniversary and now they poked fun at the bow tie. But sometimes people don't stay dead, so maybe we'll see her come back.

[Asper]

And I would agree with that and I've apparently done such a terrible job of communicating that I've said something else entirely?   

I didn't mean to say it was your fault. Some people are offended over other people being offended. No offense.

[EFHW]

And I would agree with that and I've apparently done such a terrible job of communicating that I've said something else entirely?   

Hopefully my explanation will help?

In any case, I think we can all agree that it was terrible kill off Osgood, who showed promise during her return. After all, they poked fun at the scarf during the 50th anniversary and now they poked fun at the bow tie. But sometimes people don't stay dead, so maybe we'll see her come back.

I agree, it was terrible.

[Kirian]

As for the Master really being dead, I've accepted as a quasi-axiom that if you see a person disappear, he may not be dead. If you see a person disappear with his skeleton glowing, then he's dead. I've seen that many times, especially in Time Heist and Bad Wolf (or whichever one it was that has the game shows).

In any fantasy or SF, no one is dead for certain unless there's a body.  Even then, it's possible they're not as dead as you think, but at least if that's the case the body will get back up.  Probably.  See also:  The Wedding of River Song.

[Kirian]

And I would agree with that and I've apparently done such a terrible job of communicating that I've said something else entirely?   

I didn't mean to say it was your fault. Some people are offended over other people being offended. No offense.

I'm offended that you're not offended that some people are offended by other people being offended.

Or maybe it's just gas.

[werothegreat]

And I would agree with that and I've apparently done such a terrible job of communicating that I've said something else entirely?   

I didn't mean to say it was your fault. Some people are offended over other people being offended. No offense.

I'm offended that you're not offended that some people are offended by other people being offended.

Or maybe it's just gas.

OFFEND-INATE

[Teproc]

The finale was kind of bad but then again can anyone name a good Doctor Who finale ? Talking purely modern series since I haven't seen the classic.

I guess most people would say Pandorica Opens but I didn't like that either. I guess I just don't like it when Doctor Who goes big, because to me Doctor WHo works best with lower stakes.

As far as this season being awful Voltaire, I couldn't disagree more. This is the best season of Doctor Who Moffat's done, perhaps the best season of Modern Who. It took big swings, had a few misses and a few incredible hits, but more than in any Matt Smith season it felt weird and it felt like it was always trying things.

[jsh357]

The finale was kind of bad but then again can anyone name a good Doctor Who finale ? Talking purely modern series since I haven't seen the classic.

I guess most people would say Pandorica Opens but I didn't like that either. I guess I just don't like it when Doctor Who goes big, because to me Doctor WHo works best with lower stakes.

As far as this season being awful Voltaire, I couldn't disagree more. This is the best season of Doctor Who Moffat's done, perhaps the best season of Modern Who. It took big swings, had a few misses and a few incredible hits, but more than in any Matt Smith season it felt weird and it felt like it was always trying things.

I agree with all this, though I liked the finale a lot. 

[Kirian]

The finale was kind of bad but then again can anyone name a good Doctor Who finale ? Talking purely modern series since I haven't seen the classic.

I guess most people would say Pandorica Opens but I didn't like that either. I guess I just don't like it when Doctor Who goes big, because to me Doctor WHo works best with lower stakes.

I guess I look at things differently from many other Whovians; season finales are supposed to be big.  Perhaps it's because I grew up on big finales and cliffhangers with ST:TNG (I was laughing at people complaining about the "cliffhanger" that was Dark Water.  A week.  A whole week!  Lol, try three months.  Three months of "Holy shit, are they really going to kill Picard?")  Best of Both Worlds was huge; so were Redemption, Time's Arrow, and Descent.  Even some of Voyager's cliffhanger finales were great (Scorpion, in particular).

I absolutely loved Pandorica Opens/Big Bang and The Wedding of River Song.  The Name of the Doctor was great and was a true cliffhanger, though only about a month long and with multiple teasers and bonus stuff during that month.  Those episodes are clearly the best episodes of their respective seasons, unless we count Day of the Doctor as part of Season 7.

Army of Ghosts/Doomsday was great, as was Bad Wolf/Parting of the Ways. Turn Left/Stolen Earth/Journey's End was... OK.  We won't discuss Dobby Jesus Doctor.

[Teproc]

Oh I understand why episode finales are big, I just don't like it personally, which is fine, I know it and approach them with appropriate expectations.

I think my favorite season finale is probably Bad Wolf/Parting of the Ways, probably because the show was on a lower scale at that point. The problem when Doctor Who goes big is that it still looks silly, which becomes a problem when you're supposed to buy into a whole Cybermen invasion or that kind of stuff. I'm realizing this is probably a big part of why Midnight and Listen are my favorite episodes.

I would very strongly disagree with the idea that Pandorica Opens/Big Bang, The Wedding of River Song and The Name of the Doctor are the strongest episodes of their season, especially The Wedding of River Song which I downright hated. If you ask me, those would respectively be The Eleventh Hour, The Doctor's Wife and... well Nightmare in Silver but I guess season 7 is so all-around mediocre that I could see ranking the finale first there.

[ConMan]

I remember reading a book that included email exchanges with Russell T Davies while he was writing the Season 4 finale and the year of specials leading up to his and Tennant's departure from the show. In the very early drafts (as in, maybe even before that year started) he was thinking that he'd love for everything starting with Journey's End to get bigger and bigger, and then for the absolute final special to be extremely small - a single spaceship running adrift, with a family of random aliens inside, and the Doctor has to sacrifice himself to save them. It had a nice sound to it - the Doctor often goes on about how important the little people are, and this would have been the ultimate demonstration of that - but in the end, RTD decided that it had to be a big-ass finale and we got Last of the Time Lords. He did salvage a little of the original concept, though, in that he survived saving the universe without dying, and it was only in saving Wilfred that he had to make the sacrifice.

[werothegreat]

I just want to see more of River Song.  She's supposed to pop in and out of the Doctor's timeline - why should she stop just because they got married?

[Galzria]

I just want to see more of River Song.  She's supposed to pop in and out of the Doctor's timeline - why should she stop just because they got married?

I want to see her in a relationship with an older Doctor that would justify her statement in "Silence in the Library" of "Look at you. You're so much younger...". But that's simply never going to happen.

It's so tough. Doctor Who has SUCH a huge fanbase. There are those that absolutely loved River, like yourself, but there are those they've felt she's long, long outstayed her welcome.

Even here, there are those that have loved this last season (myself included), and those that have thought it was rather weak.

The simple fact is that there's no pleasing everybody. I've read so many fansites and comments and thoughts that it's ridiculous. I see those that were disappointed that the Missy arc was just seemingly randomly dropped into episodes until it mattered, and I've seen those that hate Moffat for being unable to do anything that doesn't take 20,000 episodes to explain.

I guess at the end of the day, at least for me, I take the outlook of: Love it or hate it, at least I HAVE it. I loved Christopher. Tennants first season was weaker than his others, and the sting of losing Christopher after 1 hurt. But he got better. Much better. To the point that Smith never really grew on me. He lacked a depth of age that Tennant, while still young, pulled off. Capaldi has been the best since Troughton for me. Simply amazing

At the end of the day, I'll take any of them. Christopher, David, Matt, Peter or whoever else is yet to come. I love Doctor Who. I think we all do, despite our disagreements on individual stories, writers, directors, cinematographers etc. And the one thing I think we'll all universally agree on is that what we have, love it or hate it, is better than losing it like before and having nothing at all.

Hum. #rantoff.

[Kirian]

I just want to see more of River Song.  She's supposed to pop in and out of the Doctor's timeline - why should she stop just because they got married?

I want to see her in a relationship with an older Doctor that would justify her statement in "Silence in the Library" of "Look at you. You're so much younger...". But that's simply never going to happen.

It's so tough. Doctor Who has SUCH a huge fanbase. There are those that absolutely loved River, like yourself, but there are those they've felt she's long, long outstayed her welcome.

I think part of my enjoyment of River is that I've been impressed with Alex Kingston as an actress since ER.  A show I stopped watching in ~2002...

[Kuildeous]

The simple fact is that there's no pleasing everybody. I've read so many fansites and comments and thoughts that it's ridiculous. I see those that were disappointed that the Missy arc was just seemingly randomly dropped into episodes until it mattered, and I've seen those that hate Moffat for being unable to do anything that doesn't take 20,000 episodes to explain.
 

I did find the Missy teases to be unnecessary. The finale would not have changed if they didn't include the Missy bits in the earlier episodes. It would have been different if they hinted at a villain we recognized or showed more of her plan. If Davros or some big bad was teased at the ends of those episodes, then the audience would have something to anticipate. As it was with some woman we've never seen before, we just idly say, "I wonder what that's all about," and then move on. Or at least I did. Maybe there were people who found that more interesting than I did. If so, then I'm not the target audience, and kudos to the writers.

But I wouldn't say I was disappointed. I just found them bland. I was far more disappointed with Robot Hood.

[EFHW]

I've been thinking about the extra Dr. #10, who is in the alternate universe with Rose.  #11 couldn't sit still for an hour watching the cubes, and I think he would miss his Tardis too, too much.  Even though he has Rose.  Maybe the two of them would look for the Dr. of that universe and join forces.

[EFHW]

I just want to see more of River Song.  She's supposed to pop in and out of the Doctor's timeline - why should she stop just because they got married?

I want to see her in a relationship with an older Doctor that would justify her statement in "Silence in the Library" of "Look at you. You're so much younger...". But that's simply never going to happen.

It's so tough. Doctor Who has SUCH a huge fanbase. There are those that absolutely loved River, like yourself, but there are those they've felt she's long, long outstayed her welcome.

I think part of my enjoyment of River is that I've been impressed with Alex Kingston as an actress since ER.  A show I stopped watching in ~2002...

They said a final goodbye in the Name of the Doctor. It wouldn't make sense to bring her back.  I miss Amy and Rory, too.  They could bring Jack Harkness back!  There is no storyline reason not to.

[Voltaire]

I've been thinking about the extra Dr. #10, who is in the alternate universe with Rose.  #11 couldn't sit still for an hour watching the cubes, and I think he would miss his Tardis too, too much.  Even though he has Rose.  Maybe the two of them would look for the Dr. of that universe and join forces.

I think the idea RTD stated was, Time Lords exist across all universes - ie, there's just one Doctor, and he spends most of his time in this universe, for whatever reason.

I feel like I read him saying that somewhere, but I don't have a reference.

[Kirian]

So, Series 9.

Someone convince me that this series isn't the best of the modern Doctor Who.  Each of the last four episodes is as good as or better than Blink.

Did someone replace Steven Moffat with a Zygon?

[faust]

So, Series 9.

Someone convince me that this series isn't the best of the modern Doctor Who.  Each of the last four episodes is as good as or better than Blink.

Did someone replace Steven Moffat with a Zygon?

I read some article with a lot of criticism of this series that was actually spot-on. Like, they spend way too much time on earth. Why don't we get to see other planets? Also, the plot usually falls apart upon closer inspection. They do a lot just for cool scenes (electric guitar on a tank?) that does not make much narrative sense. And so on.

But somehow all this doesn't make this series less enjoyable. I think a lot comes down to great acting (Capaldi is awesome, Coleman is awesome, Maisie Williams was great, that woman playing Missy...); also the two-parter format works out perfectly.

[Asper]

I dislike how with the newer episodes, everybody allready knows everything, declares that casually in a side sentence and oh, we are all so inhumanly clever, now this show has become so much cooler. Yes Doctor, we realize you totally knew Devros wanted to trick you and intentionally reanimated him and his Daleks because of whatever reason at the cost of great pain and part of your life span, yes Clara, you always know what the Doctor thinks because "I know that face" and "That's how it is.", and sure, Osgood, we would have to be fools for thinking you wouldn't immediately understand that when the Doctor is silly, it's just a means to distract you, and Missy, well, nobody can surprise you either... It's cool sometimes, and even some of the examples were nice when i watched them, but this characterization of almost every character as a super-intelligent know-it-all has become kind of dull to me.

At the very least i hope that Clara will finally leave. She's a Mary Sue more than anyone else, and far, far more than suits the role she plays in the overall story.

[EFHW]

So, Series 9.

Someone convince me that this series isn't the best of the modern Doctor Who.  Each of the last four episodes is as good as or better than Blink.

Did someone replace Steven Moffat with a Zygon?

I noticed last week he had a co-writer.

[Kirian]

I dislike how with the newer episodes, everybody allready knows everything, declares that casually in a side sentence and oh, we are all so inhumanly clever, now this show has become so much cooler.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OmniscientHero

It's certainly a problem, but the Doctor might well be considered the archetype of this trope.  But yes, the other characters becoming semi-omniscient is a tiny bit grating.  On the other hand, all these characters do get surprised at some point: Osgood by Missy in Death in Heaven, the Doctor also by Missy in Witch's Familiar, Missy by the Doctor several times.

Then again, to even keep up with the Doctor, even when he's in charge and giving orders and you're just following orders, one has to be playing Xanatos Speed Chess.

Note that Star Trek characters come close to this as well.  Which is what you'd expect on the UFP flagship: you have to be the best of the best to even get into Starfleet, and therefore the Enterprise should be staffed by the best of the best of the best.  It's one of the reasons the reboot pisses me off so much; that universe's Kirk isn't qualified to command a garbage truck, much less the Enterprise.

[qmech]

So, Series 9.

Someone convince me that this series isn't the best of the modern Doctor Who.  Each of the last four episodes is as good as or better than Blink.

Did someone replace Steven Moffat with a Zygon?

I've been keeping out of this thread because I've been behind, but I'm just about caught up now.  I thought somebody must have posted something like this; I particularly like using the longer double episode format as a matter of course.

[Asper]

I dislike how with the newer episodes, everybody allready knows everything, declares that casually in a side sentence and oh, we are all so inhumanly clever, now this show has become so much cooler.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OmniscientHero

It's certainly a problem, but the Doctor might well be considered the archetype of this trope.  But yes, the other characters becoming semi-omniscient is a tiny bit grating.  On the other hand, all these characters do get surprised at some point: Osgood by Missy in Death in Heaven, the Doctor also by Missy in Witch's Familiar, Missy by the Doctor several times.

Then again, to even keep up with the Doctor, even when he's in charge and giving orders and you're just following orders, one has to be playing Xanatos Speed Chess.

Note that Star Trek characters come close to this as well.  Which is what you'd expect on the UFP flagship: you have to be the best of the best to even get into Starfleet, and therefore the Enterprise should be staffed by the best of the best of the best.  It's one of the reasons the reboot pisses me off so much; that universe's Kirk isn't qualified to command a garbage truck, much less the Enterprise.

I guess what irks me is that they all become that archetype. The cast is very colourful in other areas, but here it has become less diverse since Moffat took over. That is not to say i dislike the current season. I think it's easily the top half of the Moffat era. At the very least they didn't magically bring someone back from the other side in a cheap deus-ex-machina way to elevate soldier-boy to beyond human heroism levels. Plus this season got Daleks that actually remember the Doctor and are more than tools to tell a completely different story.

[EFHW]

The current season is so dark, as in unlit, it's hard to see what is happening most of the time.  Really reduces the rewatchability for me.

[Kirian]

At the very least they didn't magically bring someone back from the other side in a cheap deus-ex-machina way to elevate soldier-boy to beyond human heroism levels.

Ugh, that pissed me off so much.  It's almost like Moffat was thinking "Hey, what can I do that will be worse than Dobby-Jesus-Doctor in Last of the Time Lords?"

It also pisses me off that they've never followed up on it.  Like, what did Clara even do about it?  Just... nothing?

[Asper]

My thoughts about the latest episode in one word: Nevermore.

[Kirian]

I haven't seen the latest yet, but man was Sleep No More awful.  When the Doctor is literally saying "This makes no sense!" at the end, and it's not a cliffhanger, you've failed.

[Asper]

I haven't seen the latest yet, but man was Sleep No More awful.  When the Doctor is literally saying "This makes no sense!" at the end, and it's not a cliffhanger, you've failed.

The entire episode i couldn't help thinking: "No more sleep? Having 1/3 more of my life actually living? Gimme some of that stuff!"
The reasoning why it was bad a poorly executed "science is bad" claim, where they had to introduce fantasy creatures to have something that actually backs up the doctor's anger. Seriously, you travel through time and get angry for people who found a way to reduce the time they need to sleep? Hypocrite.

And that's without even talking about the "story". At least i liked the idea to use "in-world" cameras, allthough i feel they weren't really consequent with it at the end.

[Kirian]

I haven't seen the latest yet, but man was Sleep No More awful.  When the Doctor is literally saying "This makes no sense!" at the end, and it's not a cliffhanger, you've failed.

The entire episode i couldn't help thinking: "No more sleep? Having 1/3 more of my life actually living? Gimme some of that stuff!"
The reasoning why it was bad a poorly executed "science is bad" claim...

Right?  I mean, criticism of that kind of science was already done, better, in Beggars in Spain.

[Kuildeous]

It was a pretty good death scene.

Naturally I had to watch the first episode of a two-parter. Feh.

[Asper]

It was a pretty good death scene.

Naturally I had to watch the first episode of a two-parter. Feh.

Spoilers gonna spoil.

I think it's sad that i got fed up so much with her that i wasn't sad for a second. I was just thinking "Yes, finally, thank you!" So, in case you wondered, "Nevermore" means (besides an obvious Poe reference), "Nevermore Clara". Man, i shouldn't be as glad over the death of a (fictional) character, but her leaving was overdue. Even some of her last words were "Don't say a word, i know allready what you're thinking". It's like, wow, i'm supposed to be sad, but thank you for reminding me why i am actually cheering. Go faster, kind Raven.

[Kuildeous]

I never thought she was a great companion, but I didn't hate her as much as others did. Obviously people who hated the character likely wouldn't be terribly moved by that scene. I found it moving, though it did not make me cry.

Oh well, companion deaths are rare, so it's good to break things up a bit. And, well, even though the actress isn't slated to return, we all know that death is often a mere inconvenience in Dr. Who. I believe this Christmas episode is an example of that.

Also, the internet ruins many surprises. Too many announcements about shows.

[EFHW]

I liked her. Partly because she had the same name as my daughter and we watch Dr. Who together. Though I liked her especially early on rather than recently.  What I find really unsatisfying is that they don't give any reason why she would want to die. I assume it's because of Danny, but it felt really incomplete that they never said so. Were they worried about encouraging suicide?

[EFHW]

Also, the Doctor should have cried.

[Tables]

Am I the only one who thinks this was one of the best episodes of New Who yet?

[Asper]

Am I the only one who thinks this was one of the best episodes of New Who yet?

If you are referring to the one yesterday, i think so too

Allthough if all of these skulls are his, and were amassed for millions of years, why didn't the pool fill up, leading to his fall becoming deadly? It doesn't look very deep to begin with.

Edit: Also, at some point there must have been a Doctor who left his coat and shoes behind for the next to find, which means he ran around the castle nakedly, never returning to get dressed. Or that somebody indeed did leave a coat for him.

[Kirian]

Am I the only one who thinks this was one of the best episodes of New Who yet?

Finally saw it.  You're not the only one.  Holy shit.  Love the callback to Day of the Doctor as well.  I can't wait to see where this goes.

[Tables]

Am I the only one who thinks this was one of the best episodes of New Who yet?

If you are referring to the one yesterday, i think so too

Allthough if all of these skulls are his, and were amassed for millions of years, why didn't the pool fill up, leading to his fall becoming deadly? It doesn't look very deep to begin with.

Edit: Also, at some point there must have been a Doctor who left his coat and shoes behind for the next to find, which means he ran around the castle nakedly, never returning to get dressed. Or that somebody indeed did leave a coat for him.

Regarding point 2: Given the castle resets each time, it must have been left there for him.

One thing I don't get is Why didn't the azbantium wall reset each time he died? That doesn't especially make sense to me.

[Kirian]

One thing I don't get is Why didn't the azbantium wall reset each time he died? That doesn't especially make sense to me.

Obviously it's not just made-up-namium, it's also made of handwavium. *Waves hand* These aren't the droids you're looking for, move along.

CAUTION:  Link in spoiler tag goes to TVTropes.  Click at your own risk.

[Kuildeous]

I thought Heaven Sent was a phenomenal episode. I wasn't sucker-punched by the ending because I knew he was in a loop as soon as I saw the clothes drying by the fire. I figured that he was in a loop, though I did not realize that he was dying each time.

As for the skulls, I suppose one could argue that the tides shifted the skulls outward so that they never had the change to build up close to the wall. But I admit that'd be a pretty weak argument. Still, I'm sticking by it. And no, I don't have an excuse—weak or otherwise—for why the wall did not reset.

Those last points I just chalk up to Dr. Who being a whimsical pseudoscience show and just pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. The whole series is just chockfull of paradoxes, so why should this be any different?

[EFHW]

Definitely the best of recent episodes. Has this Hybrid been mentioned before? And the was the creature from an earlier episode? Very glad the dr isn't part Dalek, since it did seem likely he was the hybrid. I think the wall didn't reset bc the builders made the mistake of assuming it couldn't be broken. Was that Gallifrey he ended up on?

[jsh357]

Definitely the best of recent episodes. Has this Hybrid been mentioned before? And the was the creature from an earlier episode? Very glad the dr isn't part Dalek, since it did seem likely he was the hybrid. I think the wall didn't reset bc the builders made the mistake of assuming it couldn't be broken. Was that Gallifrey he ended up on?

It was mentioned in the Davros episode
The creature is new; it's just from the Doctor's past
It was either Gallifrey or Missy/Davros/someone is playing an elaborate prank

[werothegreat]

Was that his confession dial that he was stuck in, or do they just look similar?

EDIT: Also, the entire episode reminded me of playing MYST.

[Kuildeous]

Was that his confession dial that he was stuck in, or do they just look similar?

I'm glad I wasn't the only person wondering that. They made such a big deal of it in previous episodes, so I have to think that it is.

But I don't have the previous episodes still on my DVR, so I can't go back and check.

[jsh357]

Was that his confession dial that he was stuck in, or do they just look similar?

I'm glad I wasn't the only person wondering that. They made such a big deal of it in previous episodes, so I have to think that it is.

But I don't have the previous episodes still on my DVR, so I can't go back and check.

My theory is The Doctor assigned Ashildr to send him into the confession dial and have it delivered to Gallifrey (somehow) so that he would one day pop out there and not have to go searching for the planet. Without seeing the finale, I am not sure why he would hatch this plan or why he'd do it in such a contrived manner, but it ties in to the theme of the Bootstrap Paradox, which was brought up earlier in the season, so I think it sort of fits. Either way I'm looking forwarding to seeing the actual conclusion of this and hoping it isn't dumb.

[EFHW]

Was that his confession dial[/spoiled] that he was stuck in, or do they just look similar?

EDIT: Also, the entire episode reminded me of playing MYST.

I had the same thought re:Myst!

[Asper]

Was that his confession dial that he was stuck in, or do they just look similar?

EDIT: Also, the entire episode reminded me of playing MYST.

"Why the heck did Obi Wan tell Luke Skywalker that Darth Vader killed his father, when in reality Vader is Luke's father?"

[Kirian]

Well, holy fuck.

[Davio]

I've watched 4 episodes of season 9 and must say I'm quite pleased. Capaldi seems to really have come into his own as Doctor.

[Asper]

Yesterday i thought about "Let's kill Hitler". In one scene, a gun is swapped for a banana taken from a fruit bowl in Hitler's office. Originally i thought Bananas were not known in Germany back then. I even remember a teacher, who was a child in WWII, saying how he got an Orange as a gift when the war was over, and, having never seen a fruit you had to peel, bit in it and marveled at how americans could find that tasty. Either way, my internet magic revealed bananas were allready known in europe somewhere in the twenties. So, apparently access to the yellow wonder was given.
I am still not sure whether Hitler would have allowed a fruit from overseas in his fruit bowl. I would have argued it wouldn't fit in his world view. But on the other hand, that guy was a vegeterian because he felt sorry for animals and murdered millions of people. It's hard to guess what that kind of person would do. At least the presence of a fruit ball, whatever fruit inside, makes sense, i guess.
Just thought i'd share my thoughts on this. Maybe somebody knows more?

Also, about that latest episode, i felt really sorry for that Dalek. Such scenes are hard to stomach for me and i'm sad the Doctor didn't help him. I didn't even get why he couldn't. Makes me very sad.

[Kirian]

I've watched 4 episodes of season 9 and must say I'm quite pleased. Capaldi seems to really have come into his own as Doctor.

Oh man, you ain't seen nothing yet.

[Kirian]

Yesterday i thought about "Let's kill Hitler". In one scene, a gun is swapped for a banana taken from a fruit bowl in Hitler's office. Originally i thought Bananas were not known in Germany back then. I even remember a teacher, who was a child in WWII, saying how he got an Orange as a gift when the war was over, and, having never seen a fruit you had to peel, bit in it and marveled at how americans could find that tasty. Either way, my internet magic revealed bananas were allready known in europe somewhere in the twenties. So, apparently access to the yellow wonder was given.
I am still not sure whether Hitler would have allowed a fruit from overseas in his fruit bowl. I would have argued it wouldn't fit in his world view. But on the other hand, that guy was a vegeterian because he felt sorry for animals and murdered millions of people. It's hard to guess what that kind of person would do. At least the presence of a fruit ball, whatever fruit inside, makes sense, i guess.
Just thought i'd share my thoughts on this. Maybe somebody knows more?

Also, about that latest episode, i felt really sorry for that Dalek. Such scenes are hard to stomach for me and i'm sad the Doctor didn't help him. I didn't even get why he couldn't. Makes me very sad.

I think you're overthinking the banana joke.

[Asper]

Yesterday i thought about "Let's kill Hitler". In one scene, a gun is swapped for a banana taken from a fruit bowl in Hitler's office. Originally i thought Bananas were not known in Germany back then. I even remember a teacher, who was a child in WWII, saying how he got an Orange as a gift when the war was over, and, having never seen a fruit you had to peel, bit in it and marveled at how americans could find that tasty. Either way, my internet magic revealed bananas were allready known in europe somewhere in the twenties. So, apparently access to the yellow wonder was given.
I am still not sure whether Hitler would have allowed a fruit from overseas in his fruit bowl. I would have argued it wouldn't fit in his world view. But on the other hand, that guy was a vegeterian because he felt sorry for animals and murdered millions of people. It's hard to guess what that kind of person would do. At least the presence of a fruit ball, whatever fruit inside, makes sense, i guess.
Just thought i'd share my thoughts on this. Maybe somebody knows more?

Also, about that latest episode, i felt really sorry for that Dalek. Such scenes are hard to stomach for me and i'm sad the Doctor didn't help him. I didn't even get why he couldn't. Makes me very sad.

I think you're overthinking the banana joke.

Orange you glad i told that anecdote, though?

[Tables]

After the fantastic penultimate episode, this one felt like... a lot of a letdown. Like, this was the Doctor's master plan? To bring back Clara despite her death being a fixed event and hopefully save her life by fleeing the Raven? It made her death feel cheap and irrelevant, when it carried such weight and surprise when it actually happened. And the Doctor has lost companions before, many companions, what about Clara made her so special that he risked basically fracturing the universe to try and save her? I feel like this episode was trying to do something that felt emotional and tragic and just ended up falling completely flat.

[Kuildeous]

After the fantastic penultimate episode, this one felt like... a lot of a letdown. Like, this was the Doctor's master plan? To bring back Clara despite her death being a fixed event and hopefully save her life by fleeing the Raven? It made her death feel cheap and irrelevant, when it carried such weight and surprise when it actually happened. And the Doctor has lost companions before, many companions, what about Clara made her so special that he risked basically fracturing the universe to try and save her? I feel like this episode was trying to do something that felt emotional and tragic and just ended up falling completely flat.

I agree. Saving Clara felt like such a cop-out. It robbed her death of emotional attachment. I liked the idea that it was the Doctor who can't remember her. Kind of like a Donna in reverse, but that could have been done without building up to a fairly decent death scene.

[EFHW]

After the fantastic penultimate episode, this one felt like... a lot of a letdown. Like, this was the Doctor's master plan? To bring back Clara despite her death being a fixed event and hopefully save her life by fleeing the Raven? It made her death feel cheap and irrelevant, when it carried such weight and surprise when it actually happened. And the Doctor has lost companions before, many companions, what about Clara made her so special that he risked basically fracturing the universe to try and save her? I feel like this episode was trying to do something that felt emotional and tragic and just ended up falling completely flat.

There was something very surreal about that episode - why was the diner from Utah in Nevada?  When did Clara get her pulse back?  Where did Ushilda go?  Why did they use the neural thingy at all?   I'm not sure it happened like it seemed.  Maybe it was the next stage of the interrogation.

I did really like the nice touch when the general ordered the Dr to drop all weapons so he put down his spoon.

Also, the Dr was in the confession dial for 4.5 billion years, but he only consciously experienced the last iteration.  All the previous iterations were separate versions of him.  But it is true that each time through he was intending to keep resetting and to repeat for as long as it took.  Why didn't he regenerate, though? 

What year was it supposed to be when he came out - 4.5 billion from when he started?

[faust]

What year was it supposed to be when he came out - 4.5 billion from when he started?

Not sure it works that way. Just going by the time, the Doctor started out in present-day London and stated that the teleportation was not time-travel. So just going by that, it would have to be 4.5 billion years in the future.

But that doesn't really fit with the claim that Gallifrey was "at the end of the universe". I mean, in year 4.5 billion, there are still 500 million years left until Earth is destroyed, and it seems there's still a lot of civilization going on at that point. Also, that diamond wall always led to Gallifrey, yes? So it would have to have been around even in present day, which it isn't. So I think by going through the diamond wall, the Doctor time travelled forward it would seem. How farwe cannot really say (at least I don't know when "the end of the universe" happens).

[EFHW]

I thought 'end' referred to place not time!

[Kirian]

"I'm going to need a bigger flowchart."

Tonight was brilliant.

[EFHW]

"I'm going to need a bigger flowchart."

Tonight was brilliant.

completely agree.

[Asper]

I really like the tenth series. Perhaps it's the fact that I'm glad there's a new start after a long time of stories on mostly River Song and Clara Oswald, perhaps it's the gay visibility. But I also genuinely felt the writing was very good in some of the episodes, and not exactly horrible in any. I especially liked the first episode and Extremis. Perhaps the finale could have used another monster for a change, but it had many cute moments nonetheless.

Also, this thread just regenerated. Does this mean it's a woman now?

[ThetaSigma12]

I really like the tenth series. Perhaps it's the fact that I'm glad there's a new start after a long time of stories on mostly River Song and Clara Oswald, perhaps it's the gay visibility. But I also genuinely felt the writing was very good in some of the episodes, and not exactly horrible in any. I especially liked the first episode and Extremis. Perhaps the finale could have used another monster for a change, but it had many cute moments nonetheless.

Also, this thread just regenerated. Does this mean it's a woman now?

Dang, there was a whole thread for this? Be prepared for me to starg bumping it every time a new episode comes out.

S10 was great, and one of my favorites. I still think S8 was Capaldi's best, but S9 was sweet too. It's really just that finale that made S10 so great. The Pilot and Extremis were good, and I enjoyed Oxegyn and Pryamid. Obviously the Lie of the land was Dissapointing and the others weren't standouts to me. Capaldi is by far my favorite doctor now, I particularly like Extremis, Before the Flood, and Flatline as good episodes from his tenure.

Looking forward to Jodie Whittaker!