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Author Topic: I'm new to Dark Ages... please give me advice on REBUILD  (Read 2841 times)

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I'm new to Dark Ages... please give me advice on REBUILD
« on: June 20, 2013, 12:51:55 pm »
+1

Taken from this game between DominionKing and me.

I was around a low-30s isotropic player, and I seem to hover around 6000-6100 on Goko.

He lost connection, that's the only reason it lists me as the winner.  I may have ended up winning, but I have no idea how Rebuild really compares.  Brokoli recently posted about a Rebuild game we played where I just avoided it.

===========

SO, my question is this: how might a good Dominion player play this kingdom?  ragingduckd / A.I. I'm semi-nudging you (as well as other expert players) since you seem to have a lot to say about Rebuild.

I went for Rebuild, he went for Double-Masq into Cultists/Saboteurs.  Who wins?

ECONOMY: I knew I was unlikely to hit $5 for more Rebuilds due to his Masquerade plays (I wasn't passing my Estates), and so I had to scramble to figure out how to hit $5.  I saw Poor House and Plaza and figured that there was some kind of synergy there... Poor Houses guarantee $4 for a Plaza > Plaza lets me save up coin tokens AND discard a treasure (helping any Poor House(s) in hand) AND a Plaza cycles better than a Silver while still helping my economy.  QUESTIONS: Was Poor House --> Plaza better than Poor House --> Silver?  Was Poor House the best bet for economy?  If not, then what?

REACTING: I decided since I was going for Rebuild that I wouldn't pass Estates to his Masquerade plays.  QUESTIONS: Was there any situation where I should have?  What would cause you to send an Estate away when you could otherwise send a Copper or Silver in a Rebuild game?  On his turn 8, I even passed a Poor House rather than any VP card or Plaza.

Additional Questions:

On my turn 8, I paid $8 for what was only my second Rebuild.  Should I have just bought a Province instead?  How many Rebuilds do you buy normally?  What about in my deck here, which was filled (and filling more) with junk, and with low economy?

On the turn before he lost his connection, he bought 2 Saboteurs -- his engine was already humming.  Am I about to get wrecked at this point?

Should I really be trying to get all 5 Estates (he trashed one of his, gave me the other 2) to end up as Provinces via Duchies?  When do I start killing Provinces for Provinces?


Please share your thoughts.  I want to learn about Rebuild, and I'm not afraid to admit it.  ;)
« Last Edit: June 20, 2013, 12:53:24 pm by () | (_) ^/ »
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: I'm new to Dark Ages... please give me advice on REBUILD
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2013, 03:07:11 pm »
+2

REACTING: I decided since I was going for Rebuild that I wouldn't pass Estates to his Masquerade plays.  QUESTIONS: Was there any situation where I should have?  What would cause you to send an Estate away when you could otherwise send a Copper or Silver in a Rebuild game?  On his turn 8, I even passed a Poor House rather than any VP card or Plaza.

I really haven't played much with Rebuild, so I can't really comment on the overall strategy, but I seriously doubt holding on to your Estates is the right play. Yeah, they can be Rebuilt into Duchies, but Copper can help you buy Duchies or Rebuilds. Plus, passing him Copper instead of Estate helps him!
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liopoil

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Re: I'm new to Dark Ages... please give me advice on REBUILD
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2013, 03:12:22 pm »
0

saboteur is pretty mean to rebuild... with and engine and saboteur on the board, maybe you shouldn't have gone for rebuild at all?
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Robz888

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Re: I'm new to Dark Ages... please give me advice on REBUILD
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2013, 06:16:50 pm »
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Consensus among top players is trending toward Rebuild as somewhere between the best and fifth best $5 card. It's an absurdly dominating card. That said, Saboteur (along with other trashing attacks) is one of the only things that can really wreck it.
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ragingduckd

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Re: I'm new to Dark Ages... please give me advice on REBUILD
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2013, 04:14:05 pm »
+5




SO, my question is this: how might a good Dominion player play this kingdom?  ragingduckd / A.I. I'm semi-nudging you (as well as other expert players) since you seem to have a lot to say about Rebuild.

This isn't a great board for Rebuild, but I'd still prefer it to the engine. I'd probably open Silver/Silver (though maybe Silver/Plaza is stronger) and pick up Rebuilds with every $5+ hand and Plazas or Silver with the smaller hands. Against BM I'd grab some Estates too, but against an engine I'd just spam Rebuild and go for a short game with a lot of trashed Provinces. I'd lose the game, but I'd lose it to the PH/Plaza combo, not to the engine your opponent built or to the one that I would have built before reading your post.

I went for Rebuild, he went for Double-Masq into Cultists/Saboteurs.  Who wins?

Straight Cultist might be a match for Rebuild. I haven't seen enough games with both to say. But the engine your opponent is building is a good deal slower. Rebuild should beat it handily. Saboteur can help an engine reduce Rebuild's VP lead, but it's not a counter to Rebuild in itself.

ECONOMY: I knew I was unlikely to hit $5 for more Rebuilds due to his Masquerade plays (I wasn't passing my Estates),

What HME said but even louder. This is a devastating mistake. Rebuild can use Estates, but they're hardly a precious resource. They have more value in a mirror because you're so eager to win the Duchy split, but even there I'd gladly start with 10 Copper and 0 Estates if I could.

I saw Poor House and Plaza and figured that there was some kind of synergy there... Poor Houses guarantee $4 for a Plaza > Plaza lets me save up coin tokens AND discard a treasure (helping any Poor House(s) in hand) AND a Plaza cycles better than a Silver while still helping my economy.  QUESTIONS: Was Poor House --> Plaza better than Poor House --> Silver?  Was Poor House the best bet for economy?  If not, then what?

This is a superb combo. I experimented a bit in solo mode and an engine with PH/Masq/Plaza/CR seems to get to 4-5 Provinces somewhere between T11 and T14. That's faster than Rebuild. It does hand out a few extra cards with CR, but Rebuild doesn't benefit from 6-card hands all that much.

Unfortunately, the combo really only shines once your deck is dense in Plazas, so I don't think that adding just a few PHs and Plazas will help Rebuild as much as Silver does. On the other hand, they could both be rather nice when once you get filled up with Ruins.

On my turn 8, I paid $8 for what was only my second Rebuild.  Should I have just bought a Province instead?  How many Rebuilds do you buy normally?  What about in my deck here, which was filled (and filling more) with junk, and with low economy?

I'd definitely take a second Rebuild here, but it's a pretty unusual spot to be in. Normally, you pick up a Rebuild or two on T3-T4, one or two more on T5-T7, etc. If I already had 3-4 Rebuilds then I'd take a Province on T8. The Masqueraded Coppers are to blame, I think.

On the turn before he lost his connection, he bought 2 Saboteurs -- his engine was already humming.  Am I about to get wrecked at this point?

Nah, they're just going to slow you down. Even if the total coin value of your deck is falling, your Rebuilds are still bringing the game to a close, and you have a big VP lead. Getting your Rebuilds hit is bad, but having your Duchies or Provinces hit actually isn't so terrible. The important thing now is to empty the Province pile... gaining VP while doing it is secondary.

So I think you'd have a good chance against Saboteurs alone. He's also got the Cultists, though, and if he adds a couple Poor Houses I think he'll come out on top.

Should I really be trying to get all 5 Estates (he trashed one of his, gave me the other 2) to end up as Provinces via Duchies?  When do I start killing Provinces for Provinces?[/b]

Definitely not. You want to get at least your share of the Duchies in a Rebuild mirror, but in a non-mirror it isn't important. You usually want to Rebuild 2 or 3 of your Estates into Provinces and then either start trashing Provinces or add more VP cards, depending on what your opponent is doing.

Against most engines, you want to trash the Provinces pretty quickly. Against BM, you'll need a few more VP to win, so you want to do a little more productive rebuilding first. And a lot of engines can change gears and grab a Province or two early, so you don't want to be sitting around with 4 Rebuilds, 2 Estates and 1 Province when that happens. It's pretty interactive.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2013, 04:22:40 pm by ragingduckd »
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brokoli

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Re: I'm new to Dark Ages... please give me advice on REBUILD
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2013, 05:33:24 pm »
+2

Maybe I missed that point in the Rebuild articles, but why is rebuild an "all or nothing card" ? Reading the high-level players, seems like the best strategy in many kingdom with rebuild is either go for straight rebuild, or another engine with no rebuild at all. But after all, why not something that combine both ?

Particularly in this game, maybe it's a terrible idea but why not a hybrid Rebuild/Cultist strategy, with some plazas ? Furthermore, cultist is a pretty nice defense to Saboteur.
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ragingduckd

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Re: I'm new to Dark Ages... please give me advice on REBUILD
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2013, 08:12:45 pm »
+3

Maybe I missed that point in the Rebuild articles, but why is rebuild an "all or nothing card" ? Reading the high-level players, seems like the best strategy in many kingdom with rebuild is either go for straight rebuild, or another engine with no rebuild at all. But after all, why not something that combine both ?

Particularly in this game, maybe it's a terrible idea but why not a hybrid Rebuild/Cultist strategy, with some plazas ? Furthermore, cultist is a pretty nice defense to Saboteur.

Most strategies are all or nothing. Hybrid engine-big money doesn't work either. The problem is that most decks are less than half as effective if you cut their density in half.

For an extreme example, take a 25-card Bridge deck that's ready to "go off" and gain 8 Provinces next turn. If you shuffle 25 Curses into it, you don't get a deck that can gain 4 Provinces next turn; you get one that maybe gains one or two $5 cards. Similarly, If you add Duchies and Rebuilds to a Cultist deck, you'll never get to use the "You may play another Cultist" ability.

You can build a Rebuild-engine deck, but only if the engine is focused around playing more Rebuilds (i.e. adding Warehouses, Cellars, Shanty Towns). Rebuild-Bridge doesn't work nearly as well.

[Edit: That's actually a rather profound question. All that came to mind when I first read it was, "well, that's not what you do!" I had to ponder it for quite a while before the reason why occurred to me. :)

On a related note, Rebuild may be the only deck whose strength is linear in the density of its power cards. Other decks need to draw a bunch of strong cards all together, but Rebuild doesn't care whether you get two Rebuilds this turn and zero the next instead of one now and one later.

This explains why Rebuild is so junk-resistant. You have to double its size before you cut its productivity in half. It also means that in a hybrid Rebuild-X, the Rebuilds only lose effectiveness in proportion to their reduced density. The X, on the other hand, falls entirely to pieces.]
« Last Edit: June 22, 2013, 07:04:32 am by ragingduckd »
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Re: I'm new to Dark Ages... please give me advice on REBUILD
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2013, 11:06:52 pm »
0

...

Thanks a ton for the response!  It gives me a lot to consider about this card.

I really appreciate taking the time to write that out -- I'm looking forward to trying out these suggestions sometime in another complex board with Rebuild.
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brokoli

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Re: I'm new to Dark Ages... please give me advice on REBUILD
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2013, 08:52:53 am »
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And why not something like Double Tacician - Vault - Rebuild ? Draw all cards every turn, play vault, discard green, play rebuild and rebuild green, play tactician and repeat...
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ragingduckd

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Re: I'm new to Dark Ages... please give me advice on REBUILD
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2013, 09:31:38 am »
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And why not something like Double Tacician - Vault - Rebuild ? Draw all cards every turn, play vault, discard green, play rebuild and rebuild green, play tactician and repeat...

That's been suggested, but I've haven't seen it done. Double-Tac + Vault is actually a Province-per-turn combo all by itself, but any other discard for value could work too (Secret Chamber, Storeroom, Horse Traders, etc.).

I think the problem with doing these and Rebuild together is that you need 4 or more $5 cards before you get off the ground. I expect that it'll get beaten by an ordinary Rebuild engine that wins the Duchy split while you're setting up. It warrants testing though. It's a good question and I've never tried it.
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