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Author Topic: Use Coin Tokens or spoils?  (Read 3911 times)

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RTT

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Use Coin Tokens or spoils?
« on: June 19, 2013, 02:06:17 pm »
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So that is a new question that we have to think of. Both things are one shot resources.
need 3$ for a province(or something else) and you have 3 tokens and a Spoils in hand i think the choice is easy.
But how about beeing2$ short or 1$ short for a province.

The 2 times I had this situation i used the spoils because the tokens are more flexible. Even if I just needed 1$.

Is this usually the right move?
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eliegel34

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Re: Use Coin Tokens or spoils?
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2013, 02:36:02 pm »
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I like the idea of using the Spoils instead of coin tokens.  The flexibility of the tokens makes them very valuable. 

I would probably use the coin tokens for 1 coin and keep the spoils, assuming that you had enough time left to see the Spoils in the next reshuffle.  Your next shuffle will be better average money density assuming the cards in your deck are worth less than 2$ (which is usually true).  I'm not sure that giving up the flexibly of the token is worth improving the average money density next shuffle, but its my first guess.
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ftl

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Re: Use Coin Tokens or spoils?
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2013, 02:58:08 pm »
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Depends on the deck, too. In an engine where the spoils can gum up the village/smithy combos, use the spoils and keep the coin tokens. In a big money-like deck, the spoils don't get in the way of draw and so you should use the coin tokens more often.
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Stealth Tomato

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Re: Use Coin Tokens or spoils?
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2013, 03:23:56 pm »
+2

Almost certainly the Spoils, and DXV implicitly agrees when you look at Bandit Camp vs. Baker.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Use Coin Tokens or spoils?
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2013, 03:43:16 pm »
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Spoils has two main disadvantages.  One, it's not always in your hand when you want it.  Two, it takes up a spot in your deck, which is a pretty big deal.  There are other edge case differences: Spoils won't contribute to Butcher and coin tokens won't contribute to Black Market.

So yeah, coin tokens are generally more valuable.  But it is less clear what to do when you only need $1 more, and I think it is just going to depend too much on your deck to make meaningful broad statements.  There are some things to consider.  Are you drawing your whole deck?  Then probably spend a coin token, since the downside of spoils is lessened.  Conversely, if you have a bandit camp engine and the spoils will clog it if permitted to accumulate, then obviously spend the spoils.
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Tables

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Re: Use Coin Tokens or spoils?
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2013, 10:09:30 pm »
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Almost certainly the Spoils, and DXV implicitly agrees when you look at Bandit Camp vs. Baker.

When you're $3 down, sure. But I think it's a lot closer to call when you're down only $2, and at $1, I'd (typically) want to swing the other way. Like ftl says, in an engine, extra Spoils floating around aren't really good, but then there, you'd probably be spending most/all of them every turn anyway. And if it's late game and early in the shuffle I might want to keep the coin token to even out some unlucky $7's, since keeping a Spoils I probably won't see again, why? But in a money type deck, man, having that extra Spoils next shuffle is a big spending power boost. An extra coin token is nice too, obviously, but I suspect a Spoils would make a bigger difference.

This actually seems like a good question to simulate, perhaps. Take some boring BM decks, give one a spoils, give the other a coin token, see which does better (fill in remaining details on decks/game state as necessary). See if certain conditions favours one of the other. Perhaps try easy to sim engines and see what happens. Of course this won't be possible until Coin Tokens are implemented.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

Powerman

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Re: Use Coin Tokens or spoils?
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2013, 11:19:06 pm »
+3

Almost certainly the Spoils, and DXV implicitly agrees when you look at Bandit Camp vs. Baker.

Kind of, but BC doesn't let you spend right away and Baker does...
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Warfreak2

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Re: Use Coin Tokens or spoils?
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2013, 06:06:47 am »
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Kind of, but BC doesn't let you spend right away and Baker does...
Well, if you play the Coin token, you still have to wait to draw the Spoils again before you can use it; you'll have a Spoils in your discard pile, which is the same as if you played a Bandit Camp this turn. If you play the Spoils, you can still spend the coin token right away (though implicitly, not this turn), so it's the same as playing a Baker.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Use Coin Tokens or spoils?
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2013, 11:47:01 am »
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Kind of, but BC doesn't let you spend right away and Baker does...
Well, if you play the Coin token, you still have to wait to draw the Spoils again before you can use it; you'll have a Spoils in your discard pile, which is the same as if you played a Bandit Camp this turn. If you play the Spoils, you can still spend the coin token right away (though implicitly, not this turn), so it's the same as playing a Baker.

He was responding to the suggestion that Spoils are weaker based on the fact that BC and Baker cost the same but BC gives an extra action. That's a poor comparison because the Spoils are also delayed whereas the coin token is immediate.
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Warfreak2

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Re: Use Coin Tokens or spoils?
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2013, 11:49:51 am »
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It seems to me the debate is about whether it's better to spend a coin token or a Spoils when either is sufficient to buy what you want, not whether Spoils or coin tokens are abstractly weaker. As far as I can tell, Stealth Tomato said "DXV implicitly agrees" it's better to spend the Spoils and keep the coin token; the argument is clear, relative to keeping neither it's like you are either playing a Baker or a Bandit Camp this turn, but not getting the extra action from the Bandit Camp.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2013, 11:55:22 am by Warfreak2 »
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soulnet

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Re: Use Coin Tokens or spoils?
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2013, 01:04:01 pm »
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Well, Gold is (in general) better than +1 Card, +1 Action, +$1, which is similar to the coin, so disregarding the super-availability the coins have, one-shot Gold should be better than one-shot peddler. But, availability at any time is a HUGE deal. The spoils may never be seen again, or may be seen in a hand of $9 or more, so IMO they are in general not better than the coin.

When greening, I would spend the spoils even if I need only $1 more for Province (assuming a BM-type deck in which you reshuffle in 4 or 5 turns time). For Colonies, I don't know. Colonies are really expensive and $1 is much less for Colonies and the +$3 from Spoils, thought swingy, can actually make a significant difference. Also, how far is the reshuffle should be considered (in the category of "how likely am I to see the Spoils again while its still significant to do so").

When not-greening the question is quite different. If you are building an engine and you expect to have good +Buy that you don't currently have, maybe you want to save the spoils for the time in which you can get something out of the $3 it offers. In this case it would be even more difficult to make a broad statement.
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brokoli

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Re: Use Coin Tokens or spoils?
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2013, 01:17:08 pm »
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For $2 or $3, the spoil usually. For only $1, the coin token. Aside from Scrying pool or conspirator games (in which a card like bandit camp can be useful)
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