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[Beyond Awesome]

Josephine is without a doubt the last Knight.

Discard is good and all, but I think the trashing Knight is often the best, especially on boards with no other cursing, and especially on boards with junking attacks. Today, I would probably rate that #1. Molly can be critical for the actions and be able to play more knights. Bailey can always be played, so it deserves to be in the top 5. I would probably put Vander and Josephine in the bottom 2. Martin is often not great, but he costs $4 and if you can get an engine going and he is the only form of +Buy, he can make a huge difference. Natalie, Anna, and Martin contribute the most to engine building. So, maybe they deserve the top 3 spots, but then again, how often is a strong engine viable in a knights game. Not always. Then, I would put discard at 4, Destry at 5, and Bailey at 6 Sylvia would be 7, but the coin is pretty nice to have.

[Stealth Tomato]

Josephine is without a doubt the last Knight.

Discard is good and all, but I think the trashing Knight is often the best, especially on boards with no other cursing, and especially on boards with junking attacks. Today, I would probably rate that #1. Molly can be critical for the actions and be able to play more knights. Bailey can always be played, so it deserves to be in the top 5. I would probably put Vander and Josephine in the bottom 2. Martin is often not great, but he costs $4 and if you can get an engine going and he is the only form of +Buy, he can make a huge difference. Natalie, Anna, and Martin contribute the most to engine building. So, maybe they deserve the top 3 spots, but then again, how often is a strong engine viable in a knights game. Not always. Then, I would put discard at 4, Destry at 5, and Bailey at 6 Sylvia would be 7, but the coin is pretty nice to have.

The trashing Knight is highly situational. If you have important cards and are losing the Knight war, Anna just makes you an easier target--your stuff is going to disappear in a hurry. If you are winning the Knight war and there are engine possibilities, Anna is a great way to start pulling multi-Knight turns.

It's a rich-get-richer card that can turn small advantages into blowouts and small disadvantages into oops I pissed away the game. I'm not sure that puts it in competition for The Best; I'd rather have a card that is merely good both when I'm ahead and when I'm behind.

[brokoli]

Josephine is without a doubt the last Knight.

I've already said that, but I think many people are missing a point : Dame Josephine is the only VP knight. When there is only two provinces, you always have the advantage of having that 2VP knight in your deck (at least if the actual province split is 3/3), which can be very important. With a card like harem, this is not quite the same because there is more than one.
Of course, Josephine can be trashed via another knight, but if the game doesn't turn out into a knight battle, Josephine is very good.

Discard is good and all, but I think the trashing Knight is often the best, especially on boards with no other cursing, and especially on boards with junking attacks. Today, I would probably rate that #1.

Anna is often the best when she is the top knight. But really, if it's a knight battle and it appear middle or end game, she is very weak.

Natalie, Anna, and Martin contribute the most to engine building.

Natalie almost always gain silvers. I don't think that really contribute to the engine building...

So, maybe they deserve the top 3 spots, but then again, how often is a strong engine viable in a knights game. Not always. Then, I would put discard at 4, Destry at 5, and Bailey at 6 Sylvia would be 7, but the coin is pretty nice to have.

I think it's important to point that every game with knights is not a knight battle. I think Silvia is the most all-around useful knight, 7 is really too low. Bailey and Destry should be in the top 3 in my opinion...
I would consider Molly first, actually, because games with knights are likely to have many useful terminals.

[eHalcyon]

Natalie, Anna, and Martin contribute the most to engine building.

Natalie almost always gain silvers. I don't think that really contribute to the engine building...

Plenty of engines have $2 and $3 components though.

[ftl]

cheap villages are often 3 or lower. Village, Hamlet, Fishing Village, Shanty Town, Native Village.

[PitzerMike]

Why can't we just use their real names?  It isn't that hard.  Donald did this as a tribute to people who are important to him and helped him bring us this wonderful game.

Indeed, it's not hard.
It's impossible to remember.

Really ? Seriously I have no problems with the knights. I remember the name of all dominion cards and their effects, I don't see why it is so hard for Knights.

Well for me it's like I can easily remember the normal cards because there's always a specific "thing" associated, like a profession, a building or whatever. Things that I can imagine and I can make a connection to its function with that.

For the knights however - since I don't know the people behind them - those are just generic names. Totally interchangeable. I just can't make a connection.

[ipofanes]

You get 1VP less and have the chance to play her and trash an opponents' Duchy what would her make worth 5VP.

... in a two player game.

[Warfreak2]

For the knights however - since I don't know the people behind them - those are just generic names. Totally interchangeable. I just can't make a connection.

Sir Martin = Sir Market
Dame Sylvia = Dame Silver

cheap villages are often 3 or lower. Village, Hamlet, Fishing Village, Shanty Town, Native Village.

And the more expensive ones are usually $4 or more.

[SCSN]

Why can't we just use their real names?  It isn't that hard.  Donald did this as a tribute to people who are important to him and helped him bring us this wonderful game.

I wonder though how Martin felt upon learning that DXV considers him a cheapskate. I'm also curious as to what woman considers it a tribute that you can have her for as little as $5 and that she's usually trashed after only a few half-hearted uses.

[ipofanes]

Why can't we just use their real names?  It isn't that hard.  Donald did this as a tribute to people who are important to him and helped him bring us this wonderful game.

I wonder though how Martin felt upon learning that DXV considers him a cheapskate.

Or Tables, for that matter.

[Warfreak2]

Strictly speaking, it's not $5, it's 5 coins. I don't think there is a bureau de change offering any rate on dominion coins, though I wouldn't put it past Goko.

[AJD]

I'm also curious as to what woman considers it a tribute that you can have her for as little as $5 and that she's usually trashed after only a few half-hearted uses.

'Can have for as little as $5; half-hearted uses' sounds like a Tribute to me.

[Mic Qsenoch]

Let me do a wild comparison of militia-knight to some other knight, lets say terminal-silver, because its easy.

If they have some other Kinght, lets consider +2$. They play it, so they have 2 cards an no Action remaining, but have +2$. That means in direct comparisson they have 2$ + 2 cards (selected out of 4) to buy something, and you have 4 Cards (selected out of 4). Which is better? Well, I would say most times the former is the better.

For buying a $5, $2 + 2/4 cards is great, you have a good shot at getting Silver+Copper here. 4/4 cards is much worse, especially since you've been investing your $5s on Knights.

For buying Gold they are about even, $2 + 2 Cards is kind of hard to get the first or even second gold, but 4/4 is really hard, although with its high variance you will eventually do it if the Knight trashing holds economies down for a while.

For buying Provinces, $2 + 2 Cards is probably better, as you "only" need to get two of those Golds, while 4/4 you need two Golds + a Silver or 2 Coppers. Also, by the time you are greening, discard down to 3 becomes not so problematic.

So, all in all, I don't see that militia-knight is as dominant as the ratings might suggest. Is there something completely off in this analysis?

There is something completely off in this analysis: many (most?) Dominion turns don't consist of just playing the terminal in your hand and then playing treasure and buying something. Engine games in particular require you to play multiples of specific cards, sometimes in a specific order (Village/Draw). Hand size attacks force engine builders to choose between discarding their draw or their payload (attack or big money producer). They are harmful to cards which need the junk you normally discard (Crossroads, Baron, Junk Dealer, Stables, Rats? etc.). They kill sifters like Warehouse, Cellar, Storeroom, Vault. Discard attacks slow you down a lot (absent Menagerie).

I also don't buy the general claim "2$ + 2 cards (selected out of 4) > 4 Cards (selected out of 4)" even in BM cases, but this could be close.

[Tables]

Why can't we just use their real names?  It isn't that hard.  Donald did this as a tribute to people who are important to him and helped him bring us this wonderful game.

I wonder though how Martin felt upon learning that DXV considers him a cheapskate.

Or Tables, for that matter.

...

[ipofanes]

Why can't we just use their real names?  It isn't that hard.  Donald did this as a tribute to people who are important to him and helped him bring us this wonderful game.

I wonder though how Martin felt upon learning that DXV considers him a cheapskate.

Or Tables, for that matter.

...

Read that as "too busy buying his friends rounds over his finished exams".

[blueblimp]

For the knights however - since I don't know the people behind them - those are just generic names. Totally interchangeable. I just can't make a connection.

Sir Martin = Sir Market
Dame Sylvia = Dame Silver

Huh, I've barely played with Dark Ages and didn't know these mnemonics. Here're some attempts at the others:

Natalie ~ -lie ~ -ry ~ Armory
Vander ~ Va- ~ Vault
Josephine ~ -hine ~ Hall ~ Great Hall
Destry ~ -y ~ Smithy
Anna ~ Ambassador
Molly ~ -ll- ~ Village
Bailey ~ Bail- ~ Pearl ~ Pearl Diver
Michael ~ Mi- ~ Militia

[SirPeebles]

For the knights however - since I don't know the people behind them - those are just generic names. Totally interchangeable. I just can't make a connection.

Sir Martin = Sir Market
Dame Sylvia = Dame Silver

Huh, I've barely played with Dark Ages and didn't know these mnemonics. Here're some attempts at the others:

Natalie ~ -lie ~ -ry ~ Armory
Vander ~ Va- ~ Vault
Josephine ~ -hine ~ Hall ~ Great Hall
Destry ~ -y ~ Smithy
Anna ~ Ambassador
Molly ~ -ll- ~ Village
Bailey ~ Bail- ~ Pearl ~ Pearl Diver
Michael ~ Mi- ~ Militia

Natalie is like birth which is like gaining.

[AJD]

It's interesting to note that most of the Knights' non-Knighting effects would be worth about $1 each on their own—the different Steward or Squire options, for instance. But Josephine, if she weren't a Knight, would still have to be about $2.5 since she's strictly better than Estate. So in a sense, Dame Josephine does give the best value for your money out of the $5 Knights. The problem is that the Knights appear in a random order, so you can't time your Josephine buy to the period of the game at which you can actually make the best use of that value, and that the 2VP and the Knight attack antisynergize to some extent.

[Archetype]

It's interesting to note that most of the Knights' non-Knighting effects would be worth about $1 each on their own—the different Steward or Squire options, for instance. But Josephine, if she weren't a Knight, would still have to be about $2.5 since she's strictly better than Estate. So in a sense, Dame Josephine does give the best value for your money out of the $5 Knights. The problem is that the Knights appear in a random order, so you can't time your Josephine buy to the period of the game at which you can actually make the best use of that value, and that the 2VP and the Knight attack antisynergize to some extent.

That really shows how effective a card is when paired with another effect.

+1 Action is a $1 effect. When you combine it with +2 Cards, it becomes a $5 card. When combined with +2$ it becomes a slightly less useful Silver (barring edgcases).

On the topic of Knights, my favorite is still Sir Cantrip even though his non-knight effect is valued at less than $2.

[GeronimoRex]

We only recently got Dark Ages, and played our first game with Knights over the weekend... my wife started and opened $5/$2 with Sir Michael on top the top of the pile and Lighthouse as the preferred $2 card.

She got in 3-4 attacks with Michael early on that almost destroyed my economy (buy a silver, have it trashed) before I could build up enough Lighthouses to stay protected.

Turns out that having Lighthouse out in a Knights game quickly makes the Knights almost useless by around turn 9 or 10, when its almost guaranteed to have a Lighthouse always in play.

Eventually managed to recover the game thanks to Tactician, but having your opponent gain Sir Michael with the first buy of the game is pretty disheartening.

[ftl]

With Lighthouse around, might not be so bad. Buy lighthouses instead of Silvers altogether! You can get away with that. Lighthouses are safe from knights and protect you, too.

[brokoli]

Eventually managed to recover the game thanks to Tactician, but having your opponent gain Sir Michael with the first buy of the game is pretty disheartening.

Yes, it sometimes happens. I already had games where Anna were the top Knight and the only source of trashing in the kingdom... quite unfair. But knights are still interesting and well balanced : these cases tends to happen not often.

[Voltaire]

Eventually managed to recover the game thanks to Tactician, but having your opponent gain Sir Michael with the first buy of the game is pretty disheartening.

Yes, it sometimes happens. I already had games where Anna were the top Knight and the only source of trashing in the kingdom... quite unfair. But knights are still interesting and well balanced : these cases tends to happen not often.

I played a Kingdom where Sir Buy was the only +Buy and I got him, and still managed to lose horribly.

[mudshark56]

I have a lot of trouble remembering the names of the knights.  It's not the same as remembering the other kingdom cards, because all other things being equal, you'll only have the individual knight in your hand 1 time for every 10 times you have a regular kingdom card.  You'll only play it 1 out of 10, you'll only see it played by another player, etc.  You interact with the regular kingdom cards 10 times as much as you interact with an individual knight.  So maybe it takes 10 times as long to memorize?

I've played at least 10 and probably more like 20 games with knights, and when reading these posts, I had to keep looking up to the original ranking list to see which knight a poster was talking about.  Even after reading a whole page of posts, when I got to page 2 and I couldn't check the rankings, I was still at a loss for a lot of the knights.

I'm someone who is known for having a pretty good memory, but reading these posts was very cumbersome for me except for the people who used the "Sir Discard" style.  Theirs were the only posts I could just simply read and understand. 

Also, compared to most threads in this forum, there are a greater number of inexperienced players reading: I send the link to one of the rankings threads to anyone I teach Dominion, and they usually enjoy them.  Maybe it's mostly diehards posting, but I think there are novices reading, and I imagine they're having as much trouble as I did.

[Tables]

...So maybe it takes 10 times as long to memorize?

I'd say it's even longer. If you have 10 very different things, it's much easier to latch onto the differences and remember which is which. Say Witch, Remodel and Village. It takes people about two plays of Witch to learn that when someone shouts "Witch" you need to gain a curse, and you're not going to confuse them with Remodel or Village, and further you probably remember what they do pretty quickly. But with the Knights, you have 10 very similar names, and 10 similar effects, and you're seeing them 1/10th as often. That's gonna take you a lot longer to learn and memorise th different ones.

Right now, I haven't played that many games with knights, but I can tell you that the Dames are +$2 , +2 actions, gain a card costing up to $3, trash up to 2 cards and 2 VPs, the Sirs are +2 cards, +1 card, +1 action, +2 buys, Militia and trash for Gold. There's a Natalie (Actions?) and a Sylvia (+$2 or 2VPs?), and I think a Josephine, and a Martin (Buys), Vander (cards or milita). And that's all I can remeber off the top of my head. It's really hard to remember exactly which is which.