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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights  (Read 16080 times)

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Qvist

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The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
« on: June 19, 2013, 08:32:37 am »
+10

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#10 Dame Natalie Weighted Average: 13.6% / Median: 11.1% / Standard Deviation: 19.3%
Highest Value(s): #3 (1x), #4 (1x), #6 (2x) / Lowest Value(s): #10 (16x)

Dame Natalie aka the Gainer Knight is the worst of the knights. She was voted last 16 out of 35 times and was voted in the Top 5 only 2 times. She has the second lowest deviation in this list.

If you go heavily for Knights you want to play them as often as you can. Dame Natalie gives you the ability to flood your deck with $3 cost cards, but on most boards this decreases the ability to play them often. Therefore that's a good Knight to pick up as a defense. Then you can flood your deck with Silver and you don't mind if she's getting trashed to a strong knight. With cheap engine components like Village, Hamlet or Fishing Village this can be a really good Knight to pick up in the early game though. You use this as a gainer and can slow your opponent. But of course this is very situational. What's not to underestimate is the possibility to gain Estates in the end game when the game is close to a tie.
#9 Sir Martin Weighted Average: 18.4% / Median: 11.1% / Standard Deviation: 18.4%
Highest Value(s): #4 (1x), #5 (2x) / Lowest Value(s): #10 (10x)

Sir Martin aka the +Buy Knight is slightly better than Dame Natalie. He has the lowest deviation in this list and the lowest highest rank on #4. But he has only 10 last ranks and 3 votes in the Top 5.

The +2 Buys is of course the weakest benefit of all knights. But Sir Martin costs only $4. As you know the difference between a $4 and $5 cost card is big and the attack effect for only $4 is not a bad deal. Also he's a cheap knight you can pick up only for defense purposes if your opponent goes heavily on Knights. Also if you're playing an alternative strategy like going for Gardens Sir Martin is a great Knight to get. If you heavily go for Knights, Sir Martin is probably the weakest you can get because if you go for an engine you most likely have another source of +Buy already and you really can't rely on getting him. What makes him good in an engine is that you can pick him easily up with a gainer like Ironworks, so he has a low opportunity cost.
#8 Sir Vander Weighted Average: 31.3% / Median: 22.2% / Standard Deviation: 25.0%
Highest Value(s): #2 (1x), #3 (3x) / Lowest Value(s): #10 (4x)

Sir Vander aka the On-Trash Gold-gain Knight has a much higher rating than the last two. He was voted 7 times in the Top 5. But still he was voted last 4 times.

Sir Vander has no special on-play ability what makes him look weak. But if you have only $5 and want a Gold instead this isn't a bad deal. You can use him to slow your opponent down a little bit and you really don't care if he gets trashed. You converted a $5 cost card into a $6 cost card. He's probably more useful as defense though. Your oppoent has to trash a probably better Knight and you get a Gold out of him, a very good deal for you. Also it's possible to use a trash-for-benefit card on him although I think I've not done it yet.
#7 Dame Josephine Weighted Average: 36.3% / Median: 33.3% / Standard Deviation: 31.0%
Highest Value(s): #1 (1x), #2 (4x) / Lowest Value(s): #10 (5x)

Dame Josephine aka the VP Knight has the highest deviation in this list. She was voted first once and 12 times in the Top 5 but still 5 times last on the other side.

Dame Josephine is one of the worst knights you can get if you go heavily on Knights especially if she is the Top Knight. She gives you no benefit all game and as she eventually gets trashed you lost the points. But later in the game she is in direct competition with Duchy. You get 1VP less and have the chance to play her and trash an opponents' Duchy what would her make worth 5VP. But on the other side you could get unlucky and hit an opponents' Knight so that you lost her and rather would have picked up a Duchy. So, picking her up is a bit of a gamble. You could decide not to play her in the end game, but then she should have been a Duchy. But if you play her, you have to hope for the best.
#6 Sir Destry Weighted Average: 54.2% / Median: 44.4% / Standard Deviation: 20.7%
Highest Value(s): #1 (1x), #2 (4x) / Lowest Value(s): #7 (9x), #8 (1x)

Sir Destry aka the Draw Knight has a much higher rating than all previous knights. His rating is even above average although his rank is not. He was voted first once and is the first knight with no last rank, no not even a second last rank.

Sir Destry is one of the best additions into an engine when you can easily pick up cheap villages. If you're going BM you could also easily pick him up to slow your opponent a little bit down or as a defense against Knights as it's useful for you, but you also don't mind if you have to sacrifice him for another Knight.
#5 Dame Anna Weighted Average: 58.5% / Median: 55.6% / Standard Deviation: 25.5%
Highest Value(s): #1 (2x), #2 (7x) / Lowest Value(s): #8 (3x), #9 (2x)

Dame Anna aka the Trasher Knight is slightly better than Sir Destry and has the second highest deviation of all Knights. She was voted first twice, but still has a lot of really low votes.

Dame Anna is one of the best Knights you can have as the Top Knight, especially if you're going for Knights. Thinning out the deck allows you to play your Knights very often which is great of course. She is no good Knight to pick up for defense as thinning out only allows your opponents' Knights to hit more often. But still, she is really situational. Also, if you get her in the mid-game the trashing is usually not that useful anymore.
#4 Dame Molly Weighted Average: 59.5% / Median: 66.7% / Standard Deviation: 20.2%
Highest Value(s): #1 (1x), #2 (4x) / Lowest Value(s): #7 (6x), #8 (1x)

It was close. Dame Molly aka the village Knight is only 1pp better than Dame Anna. She was voted first once and has very few low votes.

Dame Molly is a great addition to an engine. As you have other villages already (otherwise you shouldn't for the engine of course) +2 Actions doesn't seem like a huge benefit, basically only a Necropolis, non-terminal attacks are very powerful as you can play her guaranteed unless you draw her dead. Also if you go heavily for Knights, it's not rare that Knights collide. The ability to play 3 Knights out of a 3 card hand is huge and shouldn't be underestimated.
#3 Dame Sylvia Weighted Average: 61.8% / Median: 55.6% / Standard Deviation: 20.8%
Highest Value(s): #1 (1x), #2 (4x) / Lowest Value(s): #7 (3x), #8 (1x), #9 (1x)

Ranks #3 to #6 were really close, less than 10pp difference. Dame Sylvia aka the terminal Silver Knight won that battle, but it could easily different the next time. She was voted first only once, but was only voted 5 times in the bottom 3.

Dame Sylvia is also very powerful to get early as she is probably best in picking up other Knights as she boosts your economy the most early. Later in the game she is probably worse than Sir Destry who gives you +2 Cards instead.
#2 Sir Bailey Weighted Average: 77.8% / Median: 77.8% / Standard Deviation: 24.7%
Highest Value(s): #1 (9x) / Lowest Value(s): #7 (1x), #9 (2x)

Sir Bailey aka the Cantrip Knight was voted way higher than all previous ones. He got 9 first ranks, but has still 2 votes on second last. So he has the third highest deviation.

As said before, non-terminal attacks are very strong and him being a cantrip makes him worth to pick up on many occasions as he doesn't hurt unless you draw it dead. The possibility to play 2 strong attacks (either another Knight or another strong attack) without the need of a village can be huge.
#1 Sir Michael Weighted Average: 88.7% / Median: 100% / Standard Deviation: 21.2%
Highest Value(s): #1 (20x) / Lowest Value(s): #6 (2x), #9 (1x)

Sir Micheal aka the discarding Knight is clearly the best Knight. 20 out of 35 votes voted him first and he was voted only 3 times below average.

Sir Michael attacks twice which can really slow someone down. Trashing and discarding can set someone 2 turns back. If you manage to play only him each turn once, your opponent has really trouble. He alone may be the reason that your opponent picks up a Knight just to get rid of him.

Davio

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2013, 08:40:40 am »
+1

Okay, first things first: If you're going for Knights anyway, you probably don't care a lot which one is on top as you're going to get it anyway. You'd rather get one now than wait for your opponent to get a "bad" one and be stuck without $5 for a couple of turns. And of course they're good for defense as well.

Secondly, I would rate Dame Molly a bit higher since games can often turn into a real Knights battle. Being able to play 2 more Knights after Dame Molly is a pretty big deal.

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jsh357

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2013, 09:19:58 am »
0

Dame Sylvia is overrated.  That's about the only problem I have with this list.  I would certainly put her below Anna and Destry.
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GendoIkari

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2013, 09:35:37 am »
0

I've only played with Knights a few times, so I'm far from knowledgable, but I'm really surprised to see Sir Michael at number 1, and agreed as such by most people apparently. It gives you absolutely no benefit to play it... Militia is a $4 card that has the same discarding attack, and gives you $2. Based on this, I wouldn't expect forcing your opponent to discard down to 3 to be worth so much.

I would have probably put Sylvia or Bailey at the top spot.

Molly and Martin are really hard to evaluate, because on some boards either one can be an extremely important card to get, but on other boards they will do basically nothing. I do think that Martin's $4 cost should have elevated it a bit higher.

I probably would have put Vander last... he also does absolutely nothing for you, and you have no way of knowing if he will ever be trashed. And I don't know why Natalie got last; there's plenty of boards where I would be glad to gain as many $3 cards as I can get for free.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2013, 12:11:26 pm »
+7

I don't agree with this list at all. Natalie #10?? I was considering that one for #1. With a lot of trashing going on I like Silvers. Not just because they're trashable, but because they quickly become better then my average card. And sometimes the board has something much better then a Silver.

Josephine is a clear #10 for me.
Vander is quite ok when knights are good.

for the rest it just depends too much on the board for this list to be meaningful.
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Davio

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2013, 02:04:11 pm »
0

Well, it is a bit of a silly list indeed.

As I said, if Knights fit into your strategy, any one of them will often do and you can get a lucky break with the one you happen to get. I don't often wait around for the good ones to show up and snag them while my opponent is getting bad ones. Even if he is getting bad ones, he is already playing them and trashing my cards.

I wonder if Knights would be included as a normal $5 card, where it would end up in the rankings.
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michaeljb

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2013, 02:28:41 pm »
+4

I wonder if Knights would be included as a normal $5 card, where it would end up in the rankings.

#36

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7836.msg225805#msg225805
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2013, 03:44:22 pm »
0

I wonder if Knights would be included as a normal $5 card, where it would end up in the rankings.

#36

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7836.msg225805#msg225805

I suppose he meant the individual knights, so a pile of Sir Baileys or Sir Michaels would be way above 36th.
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LastFootnote

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2013, 03:55:51 pm »
0

I wonder if Knights would be included as a normal $5 card, where it would end up in the rankings.

#36

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7836.msg225805#msg225805

I suppose he meant the individual knights, so a pile of Sir Baileys or Sir Michaels would be way above 36th.

That's also a good question, but Davio said "it", not "them", so I assume he was talking about the Knights pile as a whole.
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Robz888

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2013, 04:08:36 pm »
+5

Sir Draw is underrated here. Dame Victory should be last. Dame Actions should be better than Dame Coins.

Aww screw it. Here's my preferred list, from best to worst.

Sir Discard
Sir Drawer
Sir Cantrip
Dame Actions
Dame Trasher
Dame Terminal Silver
Dame Gainer
Sir Gold Gain
Sir Buys
Dame Victory Points
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Powerman

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2013, 04:12:53 pm »
+1

Sir Draw is underrated here. Dame Victory should be last. Dame Actions should be better than Dame Coins.

Aww screw it. Here's my preferred list, from best to worst.

Sir Discard
Sir Drawer
Sir Cantrip
Dame Actions
Dame Trasher
Dame Terminal Silver
Dame Gainer
Sir Gold Gain
Sir Buys
Dame Victory Points

Good list, I just switch Sir Buys with Sir Gold Gain.
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SirPeebles

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2013, 04:20:19 pm »
+4

Why can't we just use their real names?  It isn't that hard.  Donald did this as a tribute to people who are important to him and helped him bring us this wonderful game.
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clb

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2013, 04:26:29 pm »
+1

I think, in time, we will, but for now my laziness overwhelms my desire to honor the helpers. As I play with them more and learn their names better, I will switch over. But, I agree with your sentiment to honor those who helped out. That being said, we often don't bother to use Donald's name on these forums - DXV is all too common. Someone even converted that to Roman numerals and used the Arabis expression of it - 515 was it?
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2013, 05:26:26 pm »
0

I think there are three categories of knights :
1) Those who are always useful (Silvia, Bailey, Molly)
2) Those who depends on the board or on the moment they appear (Anna, Michael, Josephine, Martin, Destry, Natalie)
3) Those who depends on the opponent and the number of knights he have (Josephine again, Vander)

I'm not sure about Michael. The discard attack is not so great, and the lack of direct bonus is quite bad.
Destry is often one of the best, in an engine board he is very strong. Without villages though, it's terrible.
The other are very close. I think however that Vander and Natalie are weaker than the rest.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2013, 05:29:14 pm »
0

If Sylvia is always useful, so is Destry, really.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2013, 05:31:20 pm »
0

Why can't we just use their real names?  It isn't that hard.  Donald did this as a tribute to people who are important to him and helped him bring us this wonderful game.

Because then people will have to look up which is which, and I didn't want to create more work for anyone.
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SirPeebles

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2013, 07:09:16 pm »
+2

Why can't we just use their real names?  It isn't that hard.  Donald did this as a tribute to people who are important to him and helped him bring us this wonderful game.

Because then people will have to look up which is which, and I didn't want to create more work for anyone.

This made sense last August when we were all chattering about the new cards.  Now they've been out for nearly a year.  If someone is still that confused, they probably should look it up. 
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ChocophileBenj

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2013, 07:21:04 pm »
0

That's rare cards are referred to as "he"/"she" instead of "it" ^^

I didn't vote but was right in my head about the 2 best knights. Then I expected Molly (village) to be the 3rd... but of course, the money power can be dreadful... and Molly's village power is like necropolis (either only village so still good to grab but bad to build an engine, or useless with other villages around.) so I agree with it.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2013, 03:59:30 am »
0

If Sylvia is always useful, so is Destry, really.
Not at drawing dead actions...
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2013, 08:21:53 am »
0

I wish Dame Sylvia had a different vanilla effect so that the +$2 Knight was actually a bit of a Rogue.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2013, 09:53:34 am »
+3

Why can't we just use their real names?  It isn't that hard.  Donald did this as a tribute to people who are important to him and helped him bring us this wonderful game.

Indeed, it's not hard.
It's impossible to remember.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2013, 10:37:54 am »
0

If Sylvia is always useful, so is Destry, really.
Not at drawing dead actions...

The point was that Sylvia isn't always useful. +cards and +coin are not so dissimilar, generally speaking. Either one could have the advantage.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
« Reply #22 on: June 20, 2013, 10:48:42 am »
0

As your friendly neighbourhood sociopath, I like building Knights engines. Trashing, +Actions and +Cards are therefore what I want, because they enable playing multiple Knights per turn - Sir Michael is the strongest, though, because he slows the opponent down more than the other Knights, which gives you time to build.
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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
« Reply #23 on: June 20, 2013, 12:04:21 pm »
+1

I have just played a game with Natalie as the top knight (my opponent took it). I think I might have underrated this knight because it was much more resistant than I expected.

I wish Dame Sylvia had a different vanilla effect so that the +$2 Knight was actually a bit of a Rogue.
I thought like you seeing the first time the Dark Ages cards, but know I think they are completely different. The gain from the trash is very important for Rogue and completely changes the dynamic of the card.

Why can't we just use their real names?  It isn't that hard.  Donald did this as a tribute to people who are important to him and helped him bring us this wonderful game.
Indeed, it's not hard.
It's impossible to remember.
Really ? Seriously I have no problems with the knights. I remember the name of all dominion cards and their effects, I don't see why it is so hard for Knights.

If Sylvia is always useful, so is Destry, really.
Not at drawing dead actions...

The point was that Sylvia isn't always useful. +cards and +coin are not so dissimilar, generally speaking. Either one could have the advantage.
Personally, I think of the +coin as something usually good, and the +card as something sometimes very good, sometimes very bad or risky.
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soulnet

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Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
« Reply #24 on: June 20, 2013, 12:41:39 pm »
+2

Let me do a wild comparison of militia-knight to some other knight, lets say terminal-silver, because its easy.

If they have some other Kinght, lets consider +2$. They play it, so they have 2 cards an no Action remaining, but have +2$. That means in direct comparisson they have 2$ + 2 cards (selected out of 4) to buy something, and you have 4 Cards (selected out of 4). Which is better? Well, I would say most times the former is the better.

For buying a $5, $2 + 2/4 cards is great, you have a good shot at getting Silver+Copper here. 4/4 cards is much worse, especially since you've been investing your $5s on Knights.

For buying Gold they are about even, $2 + 2 Cards is kind of hard to get the first or even second gold, but 4/4 is really hard, although with its high variance you will eventually do it if the Knight trashing holds economies down for a while.

For buying Provinces, $2 + 2 Cards is probably better, as you "only" need to get two of those Golds, while 4/4 you need two Golds + a Silver or 2 Coppers. Also, by the time you are greening, discard down to 3 becomes not so problematic.

So, all in all, I don't see that militia-knight is as dominant as the ratings might suggest. Is there something completely off in this analysis?
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